You've tried other amps and ended with Pass, please discuss

Erik, please do not take offense. Knowing you do not " favor " amplifiers designed by Pass , why do you, instead, give reasons of your dissatisfaction for them, as you have stated over and over again in your posts. How many different models have you heard ? What were the complete systems they were in ? What is it, that you are not fond of ? I feel this post is ridiculous, and anyone who will take the time to answer you, is wasting their time. No one needs to justify to you why they like Pass amplifiers. Nelson and his teams have always designed musical amplifiers. I do not know anyone, other than you, who does not like at least one or two Pass designs. Maybe not their cup of tea, but to say what you have, is well, you know....Enjoy ! MrD.

Hi Mr Decibel,

I don't think anyone needs to justify anything, at all. Ever. In fact if you read my posts and how I talk to people whose tastes vary from mine, I always encourage others to buy what they prefer, ignoring me, ignoring the reviews and (if they can) ignoring the price tags.


The main reason I thought about this post that I hear a lot of Pass fans talking about Pass vs. Pass, but not Pass vs. other systems.


I'd like to understand what their systems are like, and what they compared them to before deciding.


I have no intention of disproving Pass fans from their preferences, even if I don't share them.

Best,

Erik

Maybe not their cup of tea, but to say what you have, is well, you know

I'm sorry, what is your specific objection to anything I've posted?

Why is it ridiculous any more than the post asking what owners of Magnepans like and dislike about the speakers? He asks a legitimate question and from what I have seen, he has said Pass never has spoken to him, not that he hates them. If people don’t want to respond, they are free not to. I know a lot of people like Wilsons. They are nice speakers, but I can’t stand the way they sound.

mcreyn, why can’t you stand the way Wilsons sound ? Eric, a second time, why is it that Pass amps are not to your liking ? I am going back to his Threshold days...Eric, you are not so different than Georgie boy. We will see where this thread goes, but, I am out.....

I think they are bright and ruthlessly revealing.  I accept that a lot of music I like is not well mastered and prefer a warmer sound.  I am also very sensitive to brightness (tinnitus from an accident as a child).  For someone that wants to hear only what is on the recording, they are great.  I prefer to kick back, enjoy the music, and error on the side of sweet rather than revealing.  For that reason, my Magnepan 3.5s in my main system and Totem Mites on my desktop (on of Totems few warmish speakers) speak to me.  

Hi Erik,

I am one of a number of members here who are happy owners of a Pass XA25. I use it with my Daedalus Ulysses speakers, which have an unusually flat and benign impedance curve, a 6 ohm nominal impedance, and 97.5 db/1 watt/1 meter efficiency. I have been delighted with the amp.

For context, my listening is about 90% classical, 5% rock, 5% miscellaneous.

I purchased the amp just about a year ago, on the basis of the many glowing reviews and user comments it has received, and with the knowledge that if I didn't like it I could return it under Reno HiFi's generous return policy.

For the previous seven years, since shortly after I purchased the speakers, I had been using a VAC Renaissance 70/70 MkIII, which employs four 300B tubes per channel in a push-pull parallel configuration, is biased in class A, and provides close to 70 watts per channel.

The only other amp I have used since purchasing the Daedalus speakers was a Chinese-made Paxthon VTA-160, which employs four EL34's per channel and is rated at 80 watts. I used it for a short while before purchasing the VAC. It was reasonably decent sounding, but had a design problem (no grid stopper resistors on the small signal tubes) which caused it to crackle at times on high volume dynamic peaks, e.g. Telarc bass drum beats.

As you may be aware the design of the XA25 differs in various ways from that of other Pass XA amplifiers (for starters, it is not balanced, and does not even provide XLR inputs), and in various ways from the First Watt amps as well.

Regarding the reviews, I found Teajay’s (Terry London’s) review to be especially accurate in its characterization of the amp’s sonics, at least with my easy to drive speakers.

Following are some comments about the XA25 that I had occasion to post a while back in a thread that was mainly on a different subject:

It comes amazingly close to the VAC with respect to dimensionality, imaging, liquidity, and other traditional fortes of high quality tube amps. It’s a bit less rich sounding than the VAC, but I interpret that as an increase in accuracy, which is fine as far as I am concerned.

There are also some non-sonic factors favoring the XA25, including the likelihood of greater reliability in the years ahead considering the age of the VAC; the fact that even though both amps operate in class A the XA25 puts only 240 watts of heat into the room compared to what I believe is upwards of 700 watts for the VAC; and the cost that would be involved in re-tubing eight 300Bs if and when that were to become necessary.

This is the first time I’ve had a high quality solid state amp in my system in about 25 years, and I believe I’ve picked the right time and the right model with which to do so again.

Best regards,
-- Al
 

I have owned amps from Bryston, Atoll, Sanders, Marantz and now a pass labs xa30.8. All of these amps drove magnepan .7s to good levels but none of them connected me more emotionally to the music than the pass labs amp did. After discovering that amp liks 4 ohm loads I have tried out various other 4 ohm speakers to great effect with the xa30.8 and loved each one. 

Eric, a second time, why is it that Pass amps are not to your liking?

Hi Mr Decibel, I decline to answer in this thread because unlike others, I like keeping a thread on topic. I want this space for pro-Pass discussions, especially relative to other brands which I may have heard.


If I make my own tastes central here, I'll never learn anything. 

In other words I'm going to be quiet and listen.

.Eric, you are not so different than Georgie boy.

If you think that makes me just like people who will jump on every thread they can to explain why your tastes are wrong, I don't really know what to tell you.


Nothing gives me more pleasure than others enjoying what they like to hear.

Best,
Erik

@erik_squires ,
Interesting thread. 
I haven't had a chance to listen to Pass amps, yet. Though they certainly seem to be highly regarded.
Perhaps, one day...
Bob

Erik,

My Pass 260.8 monos replaced a ML333 in my system when it died. Now, I am not sure if my displeasure from the ML was due to it's imminent demise but I thought my ML23.5 that the 333 replaced was more extended in base. While I fully acknowledge the 333 was very listenable, when the Pass entered the same system I was drawn into the music unlike anything I experienced with the ML. Fast base response, what I consider very neutral in the mids and highs never got annoying. I found myself sitting for 6 hour listening sessions covering Classical, Jazz and classic Rock.

Pre- ARC 27
Speakers-Shahinian Hawks
Dac-PS DirectStream

Over the years I've owned 3 different Pass Labs amplifiers. I kept going back to them for several reasons.
1. They just work every time2. They do no harm3. They are very pleasant sounding with all music styles/genres
4. They can drive basically anything in terms of speaker loads

The first Pass I owned was an X250 which I used to drive a pair of B&W 803D2's for awhile.
Prior to the X250 was a Classe CA-201. The Pass X250 bettered it in looks, sound and reliability.
Then I went full in on Class D for several years drinking the Kool-Aide by the gallons. I owned every Hypex NCore variant that was available at the time (DIY NC400, NC1200, Merrill Veritas & Mola Mola Kalugas)

The Hypexs worked great with the B&W 803D2's and I enjoyed them probably more then the Pass X250 on the B&W's.
Then I changed speakers to the Magico's and all the Class D Amps I had with these speakers was like mixing Oil/Water. Horrible and a very problematic combination. I believe the presented load and odd elliptical x-over design of the Magico was just too much for these Amps to deal with.

Then I switched to a Pass XA30.5 for a short time to dip my toes into the pure Class A market to see what all the hype was about. It didn't take long to see/hear what everyone raves about with these Amps. I was sold. The XA30.5 was an awesome amp but was just a little too power shy for my Magico S3 and the levels I tend to crank up to.
Now I currently own Pass XA60.8 mono blocks driving the same pair of Magico S3 previously mentioned. With this current configuration I see no reason to ever change. I'll be 6ft deep before I get rid of them. A perfect combination IMR (in my room) and with my gear.

So long story cut short, the Pass amps are unflappable, super reliable, look great and sound even better then they look. They will feel right at home in any system whether it costs $1K or over $200K. If your in the market and spending big bucks why gamble with anything else is what I've come to learn over the years.
IMO of course

@eniac

Thanks so much for that detailed, chronological, explanation of what you went through. In particular how you experienced the differences with the 803D2s vs. the Class D amps. That gives me a lot of information.


And thanks to everyone else who has added to our collective knowledge as well!

Best,

Erik

I’ve owned different Krell, Mark Levinson, Bel Canto, a few different tube amps (Cary, Conrad Johnson, ARC) and the search has ended with XA60.5. They do everything well

mrdecibel
Erik, please do not take offense. Knowing you do not " favor " amplifiers designed by Pass , why do you, instead, give reasons of your dissatisfaction for them
We will see where this thread goes, but, I am out.....

Yeah, here we go again mr d. Like a deer in the headlights
I saw where he was trying to make it go, with the start post, then as soon as "Class-D" was mentioned by the very 1st poster, he swooped on it like * *** ** *** ****! Yet nothing on anything/one else’s preferences.

The Hypexs worked great with the B&W 803D2’s and I enjoyed them probably more then the Pass X250 on the B&W’s.

" Thanks so much for that detailed, chronological, explanation of what you went through. In particular how you experienced the differences with the 803D2s vs. the Class D amps."

Stop looking for congratulations for going Class-D, it’ all too obvious with all the Class-D related post you start looking for positives on it, to make you feel satisfied with what you’ve got. "Just Listen" your ears should if your confident and able tell you what’s best


Cheers George

Hi @audiojan - Thanks so much.

Can you talk a little about your CJ experience relative to Pass?
Also, if anyone has experience with Ayre, D'Agostino or Luxman I'd love to hear about it relative to Pass, because unfortunately a lot of the brands being mentioned are some I haven't heard in a very long time.

Also curious if any of you have experience with old or new AR and went to Pass.
I'm not imposing any value judgements here at all, but if some one mentions Mark Levinson.... I haven't heard one in decades so I have no relative perspective.

Thank you,

Erik

Stop looking for congratulations for going Class-D, it’ all too obvious with all the Class-D related post you start looking for positives on it, to make you feel satisfied with what you’ve got.

George,

Projecting intention on some one without evidence is yet another way in which you show disrespect. Further, you should actually read what @eniac wrote. He liked some amps with some speakers, and some with others.

It turns out I’m more familiar with those two brands of speakers, and some of those amp modules than I am with other brands mentioned so that’s particularly interesting.

Lastly, George, did you miss the entire thread where I left Class D?

I’d kindly ask you to go start a "Class D ax grinding thread" somewhere else and let those who have been able to compare Pass amps with others but stayed with Pass to comment without fear of you turning this thread into a personal vendetta related to a subject which has so very little to do with the material in this thread. That would be a great show of respect and self control, and I look forward to seeing it from you.

Best,

Erik

I don't have a lengthy data set of amps to reflect on but when I replaced my Cary CAD 120-S MKII with a Pass XA30.8 I was in sonic heaven.  The XA30.8 drove my Spendor D7 speakers so much better with a deeper and more precise bass, larger depth and width of soundstage, and more detail and imaging...all without giving up the essence of the "tube sound" that I have come to enjoy over the years.  The amp was the only change I made to my system and I have kept my VAC Ren MKV preamp in place along with my Herron VTPH-2A phono stage - both of which provide tube warmth and air.  

I truly feel like I am getting the best of tubes and SS into the primarily jazz music I enjoy.  The XA30.8 Class A power is fluid in its presentation and seems to make the rest of my gear sound better by digging deeper.

three_easy_payments
I truly feel like I am getting the best of tubes and SS into the primarily jazz music I enjoy. The XA30.8 Class A power is fluid in its presentation and seems to make the rest of my gear sound better by digging deeper.

Lovely little class-A amp, they say God himself couldn’t have design a better Mosfet based power amp, then they also say "Nelson Pass is the god of audio",(nick named papa).
And your Herron VTPH-2A is apparently to die for for vinyl, so two of my customers say.

Cheers George

@three_easy_payments,
What speakers are you using?
Bob

I just recently purchased a pass labs int-60 I love it works great everything but be warned they do not work well with ohm Walsh 2 speakers They just draw too much power and my amp blew a fuse if you have a pass lab that's over a hundred Watts then go ahead by all means but the int-60 will not work with a speaker that's hard to drive trust me

Wow! What a thread! And I thought it was cables that got most of the people all riled up!
Is not variety the spice of life? How about we argue about whether blondes make better wives than a brunette, or how come I have owned six Mustangs but won't buy a Camaro? The simple fact of all of this bickering, sniping etc. is no one likes everything, and it is no ones concern whether they like what you have as long as you are happy with what you have! Have we not reached an age where it is up to us whether we like what we have and if we are buying things audio just for the praise that we expect to get from others, or acceptance like we sought in middle school and that is why we all had to have certain brand shoes, shirts, pants etc. then perhaps it is time to do some self-examination. And perhaps I misundertood the context of the first half-dozen to dozen postings and if I have then I apologize. For me, I like to see what people own for the sheer pleasure of educating myself. I have heard $100K systems that sounded just awful and systems that were a helluva lot less that sang like a heavenly choir. So, in the immortal words of that person who once lived in L.A, "Can't we all just get along"?

I just recently purchased a pass labs int-60 I love it works great everything but be warned they do not work well with ohm Walsh 2

The Pass is just manufacturer spec'd at 60w, but it's got good current as it can get to 200w into 2ohms, so the problem to me is not enough watts.
 As the Ohm Walsh 2 is said to be not a hard load at an average 6-4ohms.
But it's only 81db!!! efficient, you just simply clipped the rails (wattage).
From hifi classic  "We measured a sensitivity of 81 dB"  

Bet the Pass sounded good right up till the fuse popped though. I'd change the speakers.

Cheers George 

I love my Pass Labs Xa100.8 paired with Wilson Sasha.  Other combos sound different and have their strengths and weaknesses. Often been tempted to try other amps but I always prefer my own. Recently Devialet caught my attention. Tried the previous generation Devialet but did not have the weight/ slam or mid range texture of my amp/MSB DAC. 

Any thoughts on how a pair of KEF Reference 3 speakers would work with a Pass Labs 30.8 or 30.5? I would be pairing the amplifier up with a Backert Labs Rhumba 1.3 Extreme.

Coda amps are a good alternative to Pass (owned by ex-Threshold engineers). A big difference is the level of marketing.

I have owned pretty much every amp out there as a 45 year old "recovering audiophile" who has been involved in the hobby since I was 14. I am very blessed because of the publications that I own/ed that I get access to a lot of cool gear.

Pass is at the top of my list these days. Class-A ones specifically. I want solar panels before I get my next pair of mono blocks however as they draw hard from the wall. 

"Practicing audiophiles" will wince when I give you my real objection (other that I am a little house poor right now and need an entirely new kitchen at my new place) which is Pass Amps are just a LITTLE too WIDE to fit into an equipment rack and I don't put amps on the floor - ever. No cable mess either. 

With that said: they are a client and they make about the best amp I can think for the money. Don't get me wrong... I love me some Krell, D'agostino, ARC, Classe, Mark Levinson etc... I just like the tube-like sound without the tube troubles. Also pretty fair prices (retail) considering.

@gdnrbob 

@three_easy_payments,What speakers are you using?Bob

Spendor D7.  It actually said in post above.

Coda amps are a good alternative to Pass (owned by ex-Threshold engineers). A big difference is the level of marketing.

Hey @vinylvalet - Can you talk about the sonic characteristics between the two? I heard Coda’s a long time ago and from a sound quality perspective, I would not have naturally put them next to Pass. What have you heard that is different or the same?


From the designs then, Coda was a low negative feedback, and very high number of transistors, to achieve remarkably low output resistance. Doesn’t Pass favor the opposite? Zero feedback and simplest possible designs?


In addition, AFAIK, Pass favors rich even ordered distortion, while Coda is attempting a straight wire with gain approach.


Clearly both brands have engineers with an enviable pedigree, but to my ears and knowledge of their PR, they are taking divergent approaches.


Best,

Erik

This may answer some of your questions.

https://hometheaterreview.com/coda-technologies-continuum-no-8-stereo-amplifier/

Huh.

From :
https://hometheaterreview.com/coda-technologies-continuum-no-8-stereo-amplifier/

and copied here under fair use guidelines:

The Pass Lab sound is slightly warm and velvety while the Coda is smooth and silky in its overall presentation. Both are great. Which one you would like better would boil down to personal taste and system synergy. Both amps offer a liquidity and grainlessness that normally is only associated with tube-based amplification. The Coda is very musical yet very detailed in ways that make me think that a fairer comparison would be my Pass Labs XA-60.8 monoblocks, which is a significant accolade for the Coda No. 8, as the Pass 60.8s are mean competitors costing far more money.

I am surprised no one has mentioned Adcom and the 5800 series !

I'll keep my bright and revealing system, thank you, but when I listen to some good music that is not recorded well, and/or mixed well, I have a Bryston powered pair of 10" subs with no crossover to add depth, harmonics, and sweetness, especially on old LP's. 

I have Coincident PRE’s and have used Coincident Frankenstein 300bs, Atma-Sphere M60’s, a lyngdorf tdai-3400, pass labs xa25, and first watt f4s on them. In this system, the first watt f4s are the best of the bunch. Extended, clean, lightly sweet with a beautiful soundstage and precise imaging.

Currently building a pair of diy sit3s to try as well. Just a fabulous company making wonderful amplifiers for all the right reasons.

Also, my speakers are bright (Accutron ceramic tweeters), and I have not found any of my pass products bright or harsh. I also used an int30a on Thiel 2.4s (bright aluminum tweeters) and found it an intoxicatingly beautiful combination.

I am using Pass Aleph III’s on stacked Quad 57’s

The only amps I liked as well were the Cary 805’s

I have a First Watt SIT-3 18 Watt class A box of music magic.  This amp is the reason to get efficient speakers.  

Also, a wonderful Pass Labs XP-15 phono stage.  

There will be more Pass gear in my future.  

I just picked up my FirstWatt J2 today. I’m going to set up tomorrow. My first round with a NP design. Hopefully I’ll be don amp shopping for at least 3 or 4 years. 

Eric
I bought a Pass X150.8 blind.  I had a good amp (ATC P1 - also a dual-mono).  The reason I bought it was that Pass have a good reputation and the price was right.  It has downsides - very heavy, takes a long time to warm up, and runs hot.  Soundwise it has a bit of warmth and that suits my taste.  It drives my speakers (Magico A3) with control and the net results are (1) I have easy enjoyment of music (2) the combination does all the audiophile things, eg soundstage.  Finally I am happy with its looks - just a little bling with the power meter.  Would I ever upgrade? No* because to upgrade it would cost too much and if I had that sort of dosh I would rather upgrade my speakers.  Comparison:  The ATC P1 uses a module (also mosfets) that are used in professional Active Monitors around the world.  A very solid customer indeed and a steal at the price.  The Pass is similar sounding but has a bit of something extra - hard to put my finger on it but perhaps a bit more authority / control over the speakers.  It has a little higher class A bias.   *Never say never so if something fell into my lap at the right price I might go for it.
Andrei

No sense in arguing, Pass Labs has set a benchmark on build quality and sound quality for solid state amps. Short signal path, high quality parts and excellent engineering makes for a superb listening experience. Properly set up they will be tough to beat. However there other designs that can compete and if you are a tube guy it's possible they will not serve your needs. However some of the Conrad Johnson solid state amps, not all will easily give them a run for the money.

Hi phd
While I appreciate the fandom, Pass has plenty of positive threads here.

What I want to encourage are direct comparisons with other amps I might have heard recently.


If you've had the change to compare them to other similar amps I'd love to hear your thoughts and any specific differences.


Best,

Erik

@phd I would respectfully disagree about CJ solid state vs Pass. I presume you are referring to the old Premier 350.
It is a different sound. CJ solid state is less ballsy than the higher wattage X 0.8 or XA 0.8 Pass. It is a good balance between the CJ tube amp sound and solid state grip

On the other hand depending on your music preference and tastes, CJ tube amps do beat Pass in terms of musicality and dimensionality. With well matched components and more sensitive speakers, even the LPS 60 is a good contender. They do not have the bass slam, speed or visceral sound of Pass though. Again, as you have observed, this is probably more a tube vs solid state thing.

I am curious if anyone is using Pass / first class with large tannoys... I have the reissue ardens which I love. 
Currently tron seven line pre.... And Robson class a high current mono Power amps. 

Had a few amps. Cyrus / linn Majik dsm / croft25r into ATC P1 and would say only the linn left me cold... Detailed but no toe tapping..... 

Have a leben cs300xs and small full range horns in small lounge... Lacks bass but equipment disappears and sound stage just appears in front... Lovely for more folky / instrumental acoustic choices. 

PASS loves MOSFETS. They suck. You will hear a MOSFET hiss in the highs on every single amp with them. Just not his designs. Trying to make a solid state amp sound like a tube one. Ridiculous. Again, lets please all the 70 year old audiophiles with money who cant hear anyways and build them 20k dollar amps that a 20 year old KRELL will smash. 

Hey @jeffvegas,

Well, I meant to keep this pass positive, but can you give some very specific examples of a Pass amp you did not like, and compare it to something you did and why?


What were the sound characteristics you heard? Also, what speakers?


Thanks,
Erik

mrdecibe
Erik, please do not take offense. Knowing you do not " favor " amplifiers designed by Pass , why do you, instead, give reasons of your dissatisfaction for them, as you have stated over and over again in your posts.

And there it is

erik_squires
I meant to keep this pass positive, but can you give some very specific examples of a Pass amp you did not like, and compare it to something you did and why?

jeffvegas

jeff keep him happy, just say Class-D eats them alive, even though they are all MOSFETS also!
BTW: Bi-Polars (BJT) rule in all sonic ways, especially for delivering current into low impedance.

Cheers George

George:
You aren't making any sense at all.
Maybe making simple declarative statements will help.

Best,
Erik

You are your own species Eric.

Roger Waters: Amused to Death
"give any one species too much rope, and they’ll **** it up"