I know that cables make a difference sometimes but the acoustic treatment of the listening area always makes a huge difference way more than any cable . I had a set of transparent audio reference cables for many years and I must say that benchmark media speaker cable did not sound worse or different.
Yes, cables do make a difference -- regardless of price...
I thought you may find this interesting…or not. I know, another "cable post". Disclaimer up front — I am a believer that cables can make a difference in the sound that you hear from your system. With my speakers, like most high(er) efficiency speakers, I can hear large and small changes made to the system components — and cables are part of that system.
What I want to share is an exercise that I went through with my better half in setting up her recording equipment that she will be using to record audio books. The hardware part of the system is simple: Audio Technica Cardioid Condenser Microphone AT2035 connected with a XLR cable to the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 preamp.
We started with the XLR cable that came with the microphone and recorded the short introduction of the book she has been contracted to record. Then she recorded the same section using each of the our XLR cables I have on hand: Vovox Excelsus, Mogami 2549, Gotham GAC-3, and Grimm TPR. Each of the cables have the same Neutrik connector and are very good studio cables that I have used in my system at one time.
Listening through headphones via the Scarlett 2i2, it was super easy to hear distinct differences in these cables. The differences were not small and very apparent. In the end, the Mogami cable was the winner — it seemed more open and warmer than the other cables and suited the tone of her voice the best. I have heard similar differences from these cables in my stereo system but not to the significant degree borne out by this exercise.
To keep going, today I replaced the $10 USB C to C cable that I bought as an “upgrade” from the Scarlett 2i2 to a MacBook Air with a $70 Audioquest Forest cable. We were more than surprised that with the AQ cable in the system the drop of the noise floor was very significant and the blackness of background made the sound even more crystal clear.
The purpose of this post is not to promote or compares cables, just a public service posting for those of you who do not believe cables make a difference. They really do affect how your system sounds (positive or negative) and if you cannot hear a difference then maybe looking at the transparency of your system is a place you should examine.
Imagine peace everyone.
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Cables make a major difference with the effect increasing with your systems ability to resolve but with power cables I think it’s much more physics with build quality and wire gauge than with interconnects. I’ve yet to hear a better resolving $300-500 12ga cable beat a <$40 10ga cable from Amazon on a power amp. Some make it sound “cleaner” but it won’t allow the amp to pull out as much detail and richness. It just makes it sound more analytically clean and sanitized with less detail. Need to step up massively in price (15x+)to get the same or better performance with 10ga+ equivalent cables. This is on a mid-$10k’s system with a $8500 power amp and ~$20k speakers connected by ~$1k speaker cables. Just stupid how much many cable companies charge for their jewelry. |
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I am always intrigued by these discussions. I keep hoping to learn something new beyond "I'm convinced" and "to those who naysay," etc. Some kind of useful tidbit...but there really is nothing new so far. There are some mildly flawed studies that compare cheap RCAs versus XLRs in AES. There are also broad claims from authority: some smart guy uses special cable woven from yak hair soaked in silver nitrate, blah blah. But, critically, if you think you hear changes in the tonality that should be measurable and not just by ABX tests, but with a decent ADC that itself measures well. Just record the DAC output or the speaker output (using a calibrated mic), swap cables, and do a null test by comparing the signal spectrums. It should be evident in those measurements as to why you think you hear a difference. And competent and scientifically sophisticated cable manufacturers (as well as power conditioners, etc.) would be trumpeting their product measurements all day long if they in fact had any clear measurement differences to promote. I have seen some research work on people being able to detect sounds outside of the typical 20kHz window, though it seems largely irrelevant to music reproduction, so while there might be yet-to-be-understood science out there, the default intellectually honest posture is wait-and-see while instead focusing on what we know impacts audio reproduction. In any case, I have a BSEE and MSEE in information theory and signal processing, as well as PhD work in cognitive science and am very skeptical of the ideas and claims made here concerning cables. Positive claims should be backed by Missouri-like resolve: show me! |
This is a hobbyist group. We're all free to conduct our own experiments but no one is obligated to produce proofs to meet your satisfaction.
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I’m not going to settle this debate, but I can tell you this with 100% certainty If you google this topic you will find hundreds of threads over many years where you get the exact same arguments on both sides and it always ends right where it started... nowhere. like all the threads before this one and all that will come after they are and always will be a complete and utter waste of time |
Good for them! I wish them the best! You can disregard my credentials if it makes you uncomfortable. The important question is when are we going to get any good evidence for cables? I would love to learn more from any cable manufacturers or positive-claim cable enthusiasts who have scientific citations or personal micro-experiments that can lead to further investigation! |
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@kirk9 I understand AC hits a transformer then rectifiers change the AC into low voltage that works in your equipment, right there is never any music in the AC and this is a very easy circuit to design and it works great if your equipment is of any quality at all you will not need to worry about power. Don't get me wrong I've got probably 30k$ in power for my audio room but for other reasons, I live in Idaho with good power and only a few % distortion on the AC. The arguments with cables are a lot like the arguments with AC power yes, if you have cheep cables any signal will sound different, if you have bad AC it will sound bad because your entire system with be out of the limits the transformer and rectifiers can handle, this is not what the normal audiophile dealing with comparing 1k$ cables and 5k$ power conditioning equipment. |
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@jea48 |
What a coincidence! These guys also have an engineering background. - - - -
Bybee Technologies – Founded by Jack Bybee – Physicist Bybee’s first commercial products emerged from Cold War-era military-industrial research. The stealthy shadow contest of nuclear submarine detection, location and evasion demanded ever-quieter circuits, lower electronic noise and greater signal-to-noise ratios. Practitioners summed up the problem as: “reducing 1/f noise, from DC to 2000hz”. Bybee’s technology involves exotic blends of rare-earth metals or their isotopes to reduce electronic noise in circuits. In the mid-1990s, Bybee’s AC filtering was among the first of its kind to use exotic doped materials instead of transformers or balanced power, which made it a novel concept at the time. Jack’s science and physicist background gave him the understanding about negative effects of quantum noise. Link here.
Purist Audio Design – Founded by Jim Aud – EE & Physicist From there, I earned my Electronics Engineering degree at Brescia University, and would later study Computer Science for almost two years at Westinghouse. Then I came to South Texas Nuclear, and studied what they’d call today nuclear physics. Link here.
Shunyata Research – Founded by Caelin Gabriel – Research Scientist Caelin Gabriel is a former US military research scientist with a background in research and design of ultra-sensitive data acquisition systems. These systems were designed to detect extremely low-level signals otherwise obscured by random noise, requiring years of intensive research into the sources and effects of signal and power-line noise interference. Link here.
Silversmith Audio – Founded by Jeffrey Smith – Engineer CEO/Designer Jeffrey Smith is a Wyoming native and graduate of the United States Naval Academy with a Bachelor of Science degree in General Engineering. He also earned a Master of Science Degree, With Distinction, in Defense and Strategic Studies. Link here.
MIT Cables – Founded by Bruce Brisson – awarded 20 USPTO engineering patents. MIT Cables founder Bruce Brisson began purposely designing audio cables in the 1970’s after encountering the sonic problems inherent in cables typical of the day. Link here.
Audioquest – Garth Powell - Sr. Director of Engineering Formerly with Furman Power for 12 years. |
@steakster, hope this finds you well mate, and good post. |
Your statement in italics hardly suggests you are scientific in your approach to a topic. Show us your research into and the proof of your conclusion. The ability for a system to produce a response way higher than 20kHz is highly relevant. It is why supertweeters with output up to 90kHZ brings so much to the party. Although a sine wave above 20kHz can not be heard by the human ear it forms part of the sound wave. The high harmonics complete the waveform rendering the resultant sound more lifelike. Go do research you may be able to learn something and consider using your ears sometime. The science is understood just not by you. Flashing your credentials is totally underwhelming and it appears that your vast knowledge has not endowed you with an open and reasoning stance. Remember there was a time not too long ago that scientists proved conclusively that a bumblebee could not fly which of course was later debunked. |
If that’s the important question, then the next question is: When are you going to start collecting this evidence, rather than requesting that we do your work for you? As you know, there is abundant evidence. It’s just not the type of evidence you like.. |
My "belief system" is that audiophiles should conduct their own experiments to their own satisfaction and make their own decisions, as opposed to demanding certain kinds of "evidence" from others. I can’t imagine why that might trouble you, @unreceivedogma.
Nonsense. Noel Lee never said that. |
I look forward to more evidence in the future! I don't see anything here except bland vitriol and bald assertions. There are some negative results conducted by Amir at ASR that seem to fit with expectations based on conventional science, but who knows what the future holds? I think it would be great if all the smart folks who produce cables showed some evidence. I'm always attracted to the unexpected and novel. |
The fact that cables can make some small differences, which some will describe as huge differences, does not erase the fact that in audio it is the other factors that matter. This reveal why cables obsession reflect ignorance. Not because cables dont matter but because their impact is completely secondary. Cables thread are pathetic threads opposing two deluded groups for opposite reason. 😁 |
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I just got off the phone with my audio engineer. He has 40+ years experience in the industry. Besides building and repairing audio gear and guitar amps, he is also a recording engineer. He is also a guitarist and in the blues hall of fame. We were talking about other issues but at the end I asked him about The Cable Wars. it was a good 10-15 minute discussion but the Cliff Note version of his response is this: it’s all about the Benjamins. Make people believe, and you make more money. At the end, he said at best, cables may - may - make 1% difference, if that. The money is better spent elsewhere. He agreed that far more attention should be put into room acoustics, that is where there is still a relative dearth of knowledge: witness how many times concert halls are redesigned and they still get it wrong. I will conclude by posing the following question. Suppose for the sake of argument - pun not intended - that it is absolutely true that cable interconnects make a big difference. Why then, is this philosophy not applied to all the internal wiring through all the components in an audio system: turntables, CD players, amps, preamps, speakers … and I am thinking in particular about those two skinny little braided wires that connect the spider to the cone. I anxiously await the informed responses. BTW, a few years ago I said that I was disappointed in the sound of the recording that you did of the Mikis Theodorakis / Pablo Neruda “Canto General”. I played it for the first time since I got my amps back from being away for months for refurbishing. My engineer said that due to the 40 year age of the amps, many parts - not just the tubes, which were running at only 60% of full strength - were at the end of their useful life. Without going into details at the moment, other than to say that he discovered an error that Julius Futterman made in his design over 50 years ago that for some reason everyone missed all of these years and that he corrected - it appears that the problem was with my aging - and ailing - amps and not your recording. My bad!
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Bad cables make a bigger difference than good cables, and beyond a certain level of build and materials quality, good cable make very little relative difference compared to other huge factors like the quality of the source component and the acoustic qualities of the room itself. Correcting room acoustic deficiencies yields vastly superior sonic benefits that anyone can usually hear right away. So if you purchase a well made pair of cables and spend a few hundred dollars on them, or a few thousand dollars on them, you won’t hear "better" or "worse" sound, you’ll hear subtle differences. There is a huge placebo effect with things like cables (assuming the cables are appropriate for the gear you’re connecting them to), and another huge potential for good old confirmation bias. If you like what you hear, then great, keep them and move on, but if you think that more money equals better sonics, you’re most likely just fooling yourself. Beyond good build and materials quality there is no correlation between price and sound quality. There are usually better ways to make your system sound better than fussing endlessly with cables-- unless you’re using some really bad quality or outright defective cables-- the differences will be akin to trying two really good cabernets -- you go with what tastes the best to you, hopefully, and not just blindly assume the more expensive one is necessarily the better one. "Better" is subjective, NOT objective. I should also footnote this comment by mentioning the laughably obscene profit margins enjoyed by many cable makers that sell their products in the four and five figure price ranges. P.T. Barnum personified. |
Well this thread sure ran longer than a few mic cables 😅 Main discrepancy is revealed by the term belief. Belief is best applied to things that can’t be experimentally assessed. While it’s obvious for some pursuits, it doesn’t need to apply to comparing electronic playthings in lieu of properly controlled analyses. If a person declines applicability of scientific methodology over an assemblage of anecdotal opinions based on invisible perceptions, and that person is an adult, a change of mindset might be less likely. This in no way is limited to audio stuff. There seems to be high correlation between folks who think audible difference between cables is predictable and folks who do not prioritize properly controlled assessment to demonstrate said predictability being reality. Those folks may think they have a firm grasp on the scientific method, however, which can be a complication for level exchange of ideas moving forward. There also seems to be correlation between folks who understand scientific methodology, and folks who get flustered over the aforementioned mindset saying audible differences in cables is definitely predictable.
Adults can be challenging to educate (convert?) on the scientific method (including experimental design and statistical analysis; never mind the psychology element behind preference studies…) if they already… believe… they have a firm grasp on how it is supposed to work. That is the process - not just the pattern - why cables and all other discrepancies about predictable difference in audible sound - can’t be sorted in one short exchange of thread back-and-forth’s. It really should be that easy, and that neutral.* 😬
*neutral in the emotional denotation of the word, and not the array of ways in which it’s applied to audiophilia 😜 |
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Audio is not immune to the basic law of diminishing returns. With apologies for a Captain Obvious moment, the difference between a Kia Kona and a Porsche Macan that differ in price by, say, $60k is greater than that between two super cars that might differ by $400k in price. My system is good enough that my enjoyment improved when I swapped out Amazon cables and interconnects for $500 worth of Mogami and Carnare products. Would I get as good an ROI then going to $10k worth of cabling? Surely not, as my whole decently thoughtful rig cost me less than $5k. This is economic reality that is probably true in principle for every part of a home system’s audio chain, There’s no tire in the world that will make my VW Taos lap the Ring as fast as a WEC HyperCar. PS Audio’s Paul McGowan gives helpful answers to emailed questions in his YouTube channel. Long before he made any speakers, that was the component he recommended to a questioner who asked about the single best component investment that would improve listening enjoyment. That makes sense because it’s all about moving air, so cables must matter, but only in proportion to the quality of the rest of your components.
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I think size matters I am 10 gauge kind of professor.but there are some that claim the majority of electrons hover on the outside wires mostly.bigger has less resistance.now what about shielding copper. braided aluminum ect.solid wire verses stranded then how many strands.do you put it on a drill and spin the plus and minus to make it spiral.so many options.enjoy the music ant the stimulation of the cerebral mind experimenting it will keep you young. |
Now about that car thing analogy I have the stress reliever of doing the open road challenges.there are 5 in America 2 in Texas 2 in Nevada and 1 in Nebraska. The dep of transportation shuts the road down for most of the day.there is a course worker every mile with radios and ham radios throughout the start to finish.usually 60 miles down then regrid 60 miles back. Helicopters and fix wing planes in the air to monitor.cars go off in 1 min intervals.my tires have to be less than 2 years old. (Y) rated I've only blown 3 in the decades of doing this at 180mph. Nothing like a stero at 200 plus mph.enjoy life and the music. You tube it you are all welcome to join the event. |
@crozbo you are dead right that cables make a difference in your sonics. I also had a revelation recently about the sonic benefits of a high quality power cord on my monoblock amplifiers. I truly think some of the cable deniers either have not carefully auditioned them or the simply can't hear the differences. I just laugh heartily at the notion that cables don't sound different or that I can't hear the impact of supertweeters in my system. |
Thank you for going through the process and reporting the results, which did not surprise me. The rule of thumb is to judge by their capacitance specs between conductors (see below). Mogami 2549 (standard dual conductors) has substantially lower capacitance than the rest. I can attest to the experience of using Mogami 2549 as an interconnect cable in the past years, and it has been quite satisfactory. The reason behind this is that the combination of the cable’s capacitance and the output impedance of the source could form a low-pass filter that affects higher-end signal frequencies. Mogami 2549 also has much lower capacitance than its quad-conductor peer, 2534 (97 pF/m), and the somehow popular Canare L-4E65 (also quad) cable (150 pF/m). The user feedback among these three was similar: Mogami 2549 is the outperformer. (Cable brand/model - capacitance, pF/m) Mogami 2549 - 11 Grimm TPR - 33 Gotham Gac-3 - 150 Vovox Excelsus - 100
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Years ago in the WBF forum, engineers and scientists were debating the claims on the Masterbuilt Cables website. The Masterbuilt were designed by the same government scientists working on superconductors (no, Masterbuilt is not a superconductor, merely that the government scientists are at the cutting edge of this field). After back and forth debate, a Masterbuilt scientist finally entered the fray with an answer that went way over my head. This silence the debate. I come to realize that even great scientists or engineers knowledge/reasoning pales in comparison to experts in the field. |
@kennyc @dave_b Other than the qualitative description of removing undesirable capacitance, resistance, etc., Masterbuilt and/or Transparent cable manufactures seem not being transparent about the technical specifications. While it is not uncommon for high-end or boutique cable manufacturers to emphasize qualitative descriptions and subjective evaluations in their marketing, rather than providing detailed technical specifications, the omission of such transparency impedes customers from making informed decisions when acquiring expensive products like these. It is advisable to reach out directly to the manufacturers to obtain these details before making a substantial investment, however.
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In an ideal world I agree that customers would be better served knowing exactly what they are buying including the manufacturers costs including R&D and markup. However, we live in a competitive market with many copycats. If these manufacturers revealed their “secret sauce” derived from their efforts and expense, other would quickly copy at the manufacturer’s expense. Subsequently trying to sue copycats would be financially prohibitive and nearly impossible such as Chinese copycats and recouping their expenses from their efforts would be impossible (I hate to use this word but none other fits as well). In a way, I sort of got around some uncertainty but purchasing Siltech Classic Legend which is silver impregnated with gold. The price is somewhat higher than other silver cable offerings but at least I have a clue of the value of what I purchased - better metallurgy vs no clue. |
I think it would be electrifying, quite amped to hear this 😵 An exploratory visit to warmer climes happening soon. |
Now the homework begins for you, tag - your turn. What say you? Please enlighten us or debate us more as to your own understanding or theory about cable current bunching, or skin effect, or current uniformly across a wire conductor, or resistance in a cross-sectional area of a conductor. Or, how about characteristic impedance of a cable, or series inductance, or G shunt conductance, or shunt capacitance, or "frequency smearing" in different cable designs.
You asked and poked at it, here is a manufacturer who measures and promotes it;
Analysis Plus, quote: "...we then set about designing our own approach to audiophile cables, relying on solid, measurable data rather than subjective claims". Source:
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@decooney Just skimmed through it. It's fairly high level and just presents measurements that support their general theory wrt frequency effects, EMI, etc. What is missing is a simple, clear series of experimental measurements of the impact on sound reproduction. That is, like the null test I suggested above, it would be awesome to see the cables being deployed in a reproduction chain and that they measurably show improved fidelity to the original signal, reduced noise, or reduced distortion. It's such a simple test! Much more simple than their crazy modeling of skin effects, etc. If their cables reduce distortion and noise, then I think they have a home run opportunity to show that it impacts the reproduction chain. I would love to see those results! |
