Yes, cables do make a difference -- regardless of price...

@markwd ”It’s such a simple test! Much more simple than their crazy modeling …

Can you describe in some level of detail for us the test case scenario you are referring to, and what good test results would look like?

This would be helpful to understand, and for comparison to the testing NASA did before deciding to select Analysis Plus cables for one of their programs. Thanks. 

@decooney Sure, but also note that the NASA email (granting it's authentic) is concerning a laser diode application that bears little resemblance to audio-scale electrical properties.

So, the test is very simple: take a high resolution audio stream consisting of music (you can do single tones/sweeps later). Connect the streamer to an excellent DAC using modern USB cable. Connect DAC analog output to excellent ADC using Test Cable A. Record audio. Replace Cable A with Cable B (try a bunch of budget through to expensive). Record, record, record. Align the digital signals and subtract them from one another using standard software tools. Any residual signal represents differences between the cables. If the residual spectrum is bass-rich, that might be called "tubby" by the subjectivists. More high frequency might be called "more resolving." Fair enough! 

OK, so we looked at analog XLR interconnects in the above scenario. We can also do speaker cables by getting a calibrated microphone like the Umik-1 from MiniDSP and recording the track again through the streamer > DAC > amp > speaker chain. Swap cables and then compare once again to look for why folks think there's an obvious difference.

Do the same kind of thing for power cables, power conditioners, ethernet cables, etc. There may be differences! The SPDIF cables from 2013/2017 mentioned in posts above showed flaws, but SPDIF is notorious for jitter issues, especially in the old days.

We need some exciting results for the other categories of cables!

@chocaholic 

Re: mains connection 

Poorly designed components (or components that didn’t look at this issue) can have leads that act as TRANSMITTING  antennas of noise.

Given the rats nests of interconnects and power leads in the back, I wouldn’t be surprised, at all, if an interconnection doesn’t pick up garbage transmitted back out from an unshielded power cable, especially if they are touching and follow parallel for a fair length.

My theory is based on a sample of one, where the power cord of my turntable laid flat against my phono cable and I could (and anyone could) hear a hiss until the two were pulled apart.  Kept happening due to how everything was smashed together in my original set up.

Went away when I switched to an Amazon (nothing fancy, but definitely shielded, you can’t detect current with a “live wire” detector) mains cable.

Mind you, the phono cable is the thinnest interconnect and the MC signal the weakest signal in the chain.  So the most vulnerable.

When I redesigned my rig, it made me run all interconnects XLR (including phono), picked fully balanced components (including phono amp) and took great care lay out wiring with a considerable air gap and no touching.

it’s also super sharp looking behind the scenes which makes my OCD very pleased. LOL.

Not fancy wiring, either.  Mogami platinum with high end furutech ends.  Speaker wire is larger gauge pure silver from a military aircraft (used for fire reasons), braided by my daughter.  I doubt all in its $1000.

@davetheoilguy A shielded cable of proper gauge can be had for $20. I think we’re making the same point. I believe most proponents of costly power cables do so not primarily because of shielding, as that’s a given. Rather they are able to hear a sound quality difference.

I personally can hear no difference between shielded power cables. That leaves me with the opinion that a costly power cable that carries no audio signal will not be my choice. Others with a different opinion or experience are certainly welcomed to do as they please.  But shielding alone is not a reason to spend thousands on a short run of electrical cord. 

@chocaholic 

I think we are talking the same point, or close.  I'm certainly not going to spend thousands on a main.  But $40 (probably was $20, but Washington DC has been printing money for some time now) on a shielded power code is good insurance when dealing with cramped wiring at the component end.

My long runs (to right sub and two to phono preamp), btw, are nice, medical grade, cables stolen from a broken MRI machine.  Other than really nice plugs, heavy gauge, and length they are not particularly exotic.  I suppose they have no ferrous alloy of any kind, but I'm not sure that's relevant. I just ran them along the wall in typical Home Depot wire routing "tubes" to keep them neat and untangled.

Herman sums it up perfectly.

The only exception for mine is the shielding capabilities.

Some manufacturers claim to be kings of shielding and charge you an arm & a leg for the privelage. Yet can be out-performed by a cable 30% - 50% cheaper that also generally (but maybe not always) produces something of a much higher standard & finish (in terms of materials, craftmanship and technically superior).

Mogami is a great example of the later. The Chord Company a good example of the former.

“How can copper/silver plus different dielectric weave patterns cost so much?”

I can understand how this would drive some people crazy, especially those on a limiting budget.  Besides the  R (resistance), L (inductance) and C (capacitance). as mention in Iconoclast white papers here, I have no clue beyond that.

Therefore, in order to lift the sonics of my system I, like many others, have to rely on reviews including many generously offered my forum members. I don’t look for guarantees as we each have unique hearing abilities, audio chains, room conditions, noise floors, etc.  Instead I look for “probability” - if  many report similar sonic performance in their systems, then it’s likely that I’ll obtain similar results in my system - nothing is guaranteed.

Be suspicious of wildly expensive cables. You can't spend $20,000 to manufacture speaker cables. Watch out for junk science claims which include the attenuation of treble in speaker cables due to skin effect. The difference is about 1/100 dB for typical 8-gauge solid wire at 20kHz over direct current. Some manufacturers claim the less than 1 mm difference in signal path length on thick cables at the speed of light smears the sound. 

My experience with cables might be a bit different from others.

I bought Blue Jeans (Canare S11) speaker cables years ago. I just wanted some cables that were well made and at the time they were the only company to use a sonic welder on their connections. The pair was about $150 

I took them and my amplifier to my dealer one day to try out some speakers. It was then that I also tried a $3000 pair of MIT speaker cables. I couldn't hear a difference at all, let alone an improvement. 

About a year ago I repositioned my speakers and I needed to get longer cables. I thought it would be a good time to revisit the subject. I took home a pair of $500 Australian made ribbon cables. Well, they made a difference alright; they lacked bass and increased the highs to a level that my ears just couldn't handle. 

So my conclusion is that cables definitely matter, but you need to be careful not to think that the higher the price, the better the cables. 

audphile1

3,651 posts

02-06-2024 at 01:38pm 

Those who do not believe cables make a difference, you can’t change their minds. This thread will accomplish nothing just like dozens of similar threads in the pasr

+1 …bigtime

to assert that spending more on cables always make a positive difference is just as misguidedly biased and patently wrong in mirror image to an extreme position of the naysayers,…because  it is ENTIRELY system dependent… full stop.

My take above is made without prejudice to the inclusion of opinions from two polar opposite agnostic or dissenting cohorts that affect our hobby experience 

We  know those who either lack the experience for appreciation at one end of the audio hobby spectrum;  or conversely at its opposite end, an element that quietly or expressly diss the ethereal merits of “high end” audio cables

That futile and oft contentious debate arises virtually weekly in an endless, too-oft recurring, and heated debates of whether spending on high end cables are worth it or not ….blah blah.

- TAKEAWAY :

these diametrically opposed cohorts have absolutely zero chance of ever convincing the other side.  ….. we carry on.

To begin with, I agree with the post title, "Yes, cables do make a difference --  regardless of price..." The types of cable commonly used in an audio system are speaker cables and interconnect cables (I'll avoid discussing power cords here, but as a learned friend says about them, 'Wire is wire'), but each type have different performance requirements, although the factors that affect that performance are similar, in many cases. I'll discuss that a bit, but I will state emphatically right now that there is no cable available (either manufactured or fabricated) that will sound good with every system, regardless of cost.

Starting with speaker cables, their task is to carry large amounts of current (power) from a source (amplifier) to a load (loudspeaker). Although it sounds simple, there are some significant variables associated with it, namely the source (output) impedance of the amplifier, and the load (input) impedance of the loudspeaker. Although in a solid-state amplifier the source impedance is typically near zero (i.e., less sensitive to loading), tube amplifiers use output transformers whose typical source impedance is about 2 W or so, (considered high impedance, in this case), the load impedance of a loudspeaker is relatively high (e.g., 4 to 8 ohms) and varies due to frequency. So what works best? Several years ago, a major audio magazine conducted double-blind tests of speaker cables and had the courage to publish the names of the manufacturers. (That article is virtually impossible to find on the internet today, effectively censored.) One of the highest rated 'speaker cables' was an extension cord from Home Depot! After reading this I rushed out to my local store and bought one. Consisting of 8 AWG individual conductors, it certainly looked impressive when I cut the plugs off to install spade lugs on it. I anxiously connected them between my amplifiers and speakers with the anticipation that I was going to have great sound. Upon listening, however, I found the sound to be fat and tubby. Given that my speakers at that time were Carver AL-III ribbons, their design normally provides detailed and crisp sound. What a disappointment!

With a background in electrical measurements, I subsequently measured the Home Depot cables and discovered that besides their massive girth, their series inductance was very high. Since their reactance (expressed in ohms) is calculated using the formula, R_L = 2pfl (not to mention that inductance increases with the physical length of the wire), it's obvious by inspection that resistance rises significantly with frequency, impeding the transmission more as the frequency increases, causing an imbalance between the bass and treble frequencies reproduced. In the case of the ribbon drivers of the AL-III, their characteristic impedance is relatively flat to 20 kHz, but an electrostatic panel, for instance, can drop to 1 ohm or less at 20 kHz, further impacting the sonic qualities associated with high inductance. In general, I have found that the lower the inductance, the better a speaker cable sounds, although it must be of adequate size to carry the intended current. I should also mention that much of the wire available now (especially from China) is not pure copper (Cu), but a mix of copper and aluminum (Cu/Al), due to cost, and it's performance is not as good as pure copper wire.

Like speaker wire, interconnect cables are also impacted by the source and load impedance of the components (e.g., preamplifier, CD player, etc.) they are connected to, but in a different way. The source and load impedance of most audio components are relatively high, compared to those associated with amplifiers and loudspeakers. For example, the line inputs (unbalanced) of my current preamp are 20 kW (relatively low, in general, however), and the source impedance of most components are also likely similar, although typically unspecified. The problem that arises in this case are those of parallel (shunt) capacitance associated with the interconnect cables. After listening using the several different interconnect cables that I owned, I subsequently measured their capacitance. Regardless of cost, I found that those with the lowest capacitance sounded the best.

If manufacturers and reviewers both wanted to provide the best information to consumers, in my opinion, they would state the electrical specifications of the cables they sell and review. For example, Stereophile® prides itself on the fact that it provides measurements on the audio components it reviews, but never (to my knowledge) have they measured the electrical characteristics of the cables they have reviewed. I suspect, however, that a request for such information from a manufacturer would be met with a response that that information is proprietary. A few dealers I have heard of actually have 'loaner' cables that customers can borrow to try in their own systems, but those dealers are few and far between.

Given that we all have different components in our audio systems, with differing source and load impedances (and operating characteristics, when it comes to loudspeakers), suffice it to say that when it comes to cables and their performance, I will reiterate that there is no 'one size fits all.' That said, it's just as obvious that no manufacturer can make the claim that their cables are the best (perhaps the most expensive). I have given some typical characteristics that I have found work for me and likely will for others, but ultimately, each individual will have to make up their own mind using their own ears.

Good Luck!

You are wasting your typing on the dufuses on this forum.

Those of us who have experimented with different cables on our better than mundane audio systems already know.

" I should also mention that much of the wire available now (especially from China) is not pure copper (Cu), but a mix of copper and aluminum (Cu/Al), due to cost, and it's performance is not as good as pure copper wire."

Actually the Chinese make some best quality copper wires and cables these days. Anyway thanks for taking the time to write such a long technical post I enjoyed reading it.

@classicrockfan actually not if they were then all the high-end manufacturers would be using the junk you buy on Amazon, Ali-Express at the audio shows to demo their equipment.  But alas I am yet to hear anyone using  Audiocrast, Viborg, Monosaudio or any other value line. 

So did Gene or Amir send you to troll cable threads. 

Actually the Chinese make some best quality copper wires and cables these days. Anyway thanks for taking the time to write such a long technical post I enjoyed reading it.

You cannot buy a 1000 bucks cable for a 1000 bucks system value...it will be non sensical waste... 😁

Calling a 1000 bucks system value if not trash, low-fi gear, based on price tag is complete ignorance of acoustics and more...

We all have budget and needs anyway , different one, then bashing someone because he value low cost cable is not to my taste ....Even if some cable which are costlier one can make a difference in a costlier system...

My system value is near 1000 bucks , some of my cable are chinese one some from Morrow audio. And my system is high-fi and audiophile as much in his relative way than a 100,000 bucks one is if well embedded to begin with ... System-room -brain Acoustics dont change his laws only because of price tags...

And i am not a troll from ASR by the way....Audio is neither subjective nor objective as psychoacoustics is neither one but correlation of the two in one experience... But Consumerism faith is subjective conditioning only, as Pavolvian dogs reacting to bells or publicity are...

I trust myself only my acoustic experience experiments ( not my purchase nor my upgrade price tags) .

There are good cable synergetical with a system at low price or at high price, chinese or not... No rules here...Only experiments and basic knowledge in electrical,mechanical and acoustical embeddings and common sense...

I dont need an upgrade at high cost now, cables or gear...

I am not deaf nor gullible ...

Did you find the Al used in the connector, inside the conductor or both?  Did you actually cut the insulator apart and look inside the conductors?  Are the conductor mixed with separated Cu stains and Al strains?  If so, I agree you could easily tell by using magnet.  But, if the strain is made of Al and plated with Cu, how do you tell?  This is a huge accusation and you need to be cautious with the statement you made. 

@stereo_buff ... I should also mention that much of the wire available now (especially from China) is not pure copper (Cu), but a mix of copper and aluminum (Cu/Al), due to cost, and it's performance is not as good as pure copper wire.

I have made 2-3 purchases from AliExpress, and I find the build and sonic quality, like the one shown below, quite good. The Orgami cable from another batch seems genuine with the label on it.

For the record, I am in no need of rationalisms masquerading as a public service.

Let me elaborate.

As many here know, I have been at this hobby for 55 years, since I built my Dynakit Stereo 70 when I was 14.

Since then, I have had the opportunity to go through over a dozen brand name cables, some costing thousands of dollars. Imho, they do not justify the fetishistic faith placed in them, and certainly do not come close to justifying the amount of $$$$$s charged for them. It is at best a subjective experience.

See the link below for a description of my system. Notice nowhere do I mention the inexpensive - at best what you might call entry level - cables.

Now please leave the cable agnostics alone! If you want to break your piggy bank on this stuff and have your wife tear you a second one when she finds out, be my guest. I won’t stop you.

“Peace”.

theaudioatticvinylsundays.com/about

@stereo_buff

Thank you for that. There’s at least some science in there, and it’s science I can understand and choose to agree or disagree with. It neither confirms nor disproves my view: it can make a difference, but is it an improvement and most importantly is it an improvement sufficiently worth mortgaging the house over? My engineer says at best, a 1% difference, and the difference can simply be … different but one of taste, not necessarily an improvement.

I have a question for you:

- my amps have no output transformer

- my speakers are 16 ohm, not 8 or 4, with 101db efficiency.

So….?

And here is a question that I asked in another post that no one has touched:

- So let’s say you got a thick, heavy speaker cable at $300 a foot. You hook it up to the cabinet terminals but from there, smaller, cheaper wires lead to the crossover, from there smaller wires go to the driver terminals, and from there really skinny stranded wires go from the driver terminals to the spider.

Ummmm…?

Thank you.