Yes, cables do make a difference -- regardless of price...
I thought you may find this interesting…or not. I know, another "cable post". Disclaimer up front — I am a believer that cables can make a difference in the sound that you hear from your system. With my speakers, like most high(er) efficiency speakers, I can hear large and small changes made to the system components — and cables are part of that system.
What I want to share is an exercise that I went through with my better half in setting up her recording equipment that she will be using to record audio books. The hardware part of the system is simple: Audio Technica Cardioid Condenser Microphone AT2035 connected with a XLR cable to the Focusrite Scarlett 2i2 preamp.
We started with the XLR cable that came with the microphone and recorded the short introduction of the book she has been contracted to record. Then she recorded the same section using each of the our XLR cables I have on hand: Vovox Excelsus, Mogami 2549, Gotham GAC-3, and Grimm TPR. Each of the cables have the same Neutrik connector and are very good studio cables that I have used in my system at one time.
Listening through headphones via the Scarlett 2i2, it was super easy to hear distinct differences in these cables. The differences were not small and very apparent. In the end, the Mogami cable was the winner — it seemed more open and warmer than the other cables and suited the tone of her voice the best. I have heard similar differences from these cables in my stereo system but not to the significant degree borne out by this exercise.
To keep going, today I replaced the $10 USB C to C cable that I bought as an “upgrade” from the Scarlett 2i2 to a MacBook Air with a $70 Audioquest Forest cable. We were more than surprised that with the AQ cable in the system the drop of the noise floor was very significant and the blackness of background made the sound even more crystal clear.
The purpose of this post is not to promote or compares cables, just a public service posting for those of you who do not believe cables make a difference. They really do affect how your system sounds (positive or negative) and if you cannot hear a difference then maybe looking at the transparency of your system is a place you should examine.
Thank you for that. There’s at least some science in there, and it’s science I can understand and choose to agree or disagree with. It neither confirms nor disproves my view: it can make a difference, but is it an improvement and most importantly is it an improvement sufficiently worth mortgaging the house over? My engineer says at best, a 1% difference, and the difference can simply be … different but one of taste, not necessarily an improvement.
I have a question for you:
- my amps have no output transformer
- my speakers are 16 ohm, not 8 or 4, with 101db efficiency.
So….?
And here is a question that I asked in another post that no one has touched:
- So let’s say you got a thick, heavy speaker cable at $300 a foot. You hook it up to the cabinet terminals but from there, smaller, cheaper wires lead to the crossover, from there smaller wires go to the driver terminals, and from there really skinny stranded wires go from the driver terminals to the spider.
For the record, I am in no need of rationalisms masquerading as a public service.
Let me elaborate.
As many here know, I have been at this hobby for 55 years, since I built my Dynakit Stereo 70 when I was 14.
Since then, I have had the opportunity to go through over a dozen brand name cables, some costing thousands of dollars. Imho, they do not justify the fetishistic faith placed in them, and certainly do not come close to justifying the amount of $$$$$s charged for them. It is at best a subjective experience.
See the link below for a description of my system. Notice nowhere do I mention the inexpensive - at best what you might call entry level - cables.
Now please leave the cable agnostics alone! If you want to break your piggy bank on this stuff and have your wife tear you a second one when she finds out, be my guest. I won’t stop you.
Did you find the Al used in the connector, inside the conductor or both? Did you actually cut the insulator apart and look inside the conductors? Are the conductor mixed with separated Cu stains and Al strains? If so, I agree you could easily tell by using magnet. But, if the strain is made of Al and plated with Cu, how do you tell? This is a huge accusation and you need to be cautious with the statement you made.
@stereo_buff... I should also mention that much of the wire available now (especially from China) is not pure copper (Cu), but a mix of copper and aluminum (Cu/Al), due to cost, and it's performance is not as good as pure copper wire.
I have made 2-3 purchases from AliExpress, and I find the build and sonic quality, like the one shown below, quite good. The Orgami cable from another batch seems genuine with the label on it.
You cannot buy a 1000 bucks cable for a 1000 bucks system value...it will be non sensical waste... 😁
Calling a 1000 bucks system value if not trash, low-fi gear, based on price tag is complete ignorance of acoustics and more...
We all have budget and needs anyway , different one, then bashing someone because he value low cost cable is not to my taste ....Even if some cable which are costlier one can make a difference in a costlier system...
My system value is near 1000 bucks , some of my cable are chinese one some from Morrow audio. And my system is high-fi and audiophile as much in his relative way than a 100,000 bucks one is if well embedded to begin with ... System-room -brain Acoustics dont change his laws only because of price tags...
And i am not a troll from ASR by the way....Audio is neither subjective nor objective as psychoacoustics is neither one but correlation of the two in one experience... But Consumerism faith is subjective conditioning only, as Pavolvian dogs reacting to bells or publicity are...
I trust myself only my acoustic experience experiments ( not my purchase nor my upgrade price tags) .
There are good cable synergetical with a system at low price or at high price, chinese or not... No rules here...Only experiments and basic knowledge in electrical,mechanical and acoustical embeddings and common sense...
I dont need an upgrade at high cost now, cables or gear...
@classicrockfanactually not if they were then all the high-end manufacturers would be using the junk you buy on Amazon, Ali-Express at the audio shows to demo their equipment. But alas I am yet to hear anyone using Audiocrast, Viborg, Monosaudio or any other value line.
So did Gene or Amir send you to troll cable threads.
Actually the Chinese make some best quality copper wires and cables these days. Anyway thanks for taking the time to write such a long technical post I enjoyed reading it.
" I should also mention that much of the wire available now (especially from China) is not pure copper (Cu), but a mix of copper and aluminum (Cu/Al), due to cost, and it's performance is not as good as pure copper wire."
Actually the Chinese make some best quality copper wires and cables these days. Anyway thanks for taking the time to write such a long technical post I enjoyed reading it.
To begin with, I agree with the post title, "Yes, cables do make a difference -- regardless of price..." The types of cable commonly used in an audio system are speaker cables and interconnect cables (I'll avoid discussing power cords here, but as a learned friend says about them, 'Wire is wire'), but each type have different performance requirements, although the factors that affect that performance are similar, in many cases. I'll discuss that a bit, but I will state emphatically right now that there is no cable available (either manufactured or fabricated) that will sound good with every system, regardless of cost.
Starting with speaker cables, their task is to carry large amounts of current (power) from a source (amplifier) to a load (loudspeaker). Although it sounds simple, there are some significant variables associated with it, namely the source (output) impedance of the amplifier, and the load (input) impedance of the loudspeaker. Although in a solid-state amplifier the source impedance is typically near zero (i.e., less sensitive to loading), tube amplifiers use output transformers whose typical source impedance is about 2 W or so, (considered high impedance, in this case), the load impedance of a loudspeaker is relatively high (e.g., 4 to 8 ohms) and varies due to frequency. So what works best? Several years ago, a major audio magazine conducted double-blind tests of speaker cables and had the courage to publish the names of the manufacturers. (That article is virtually impossible to find on the internet today, effectively censored.) One of the highest rated 'speaker cables' was an extension cord from Home Depot! After reading this I rushed out to my local store and bought one. Consisting of 8 AWG individual conductors, it certainly looked impressive when I cut the plugs off to install spade lugs on it. I anxiously connected them between my amplifiers and speakers with the anticipation that I was going to have great sound. Upon listening, however, I found the sound to be fat and tubby. Given that my speakers at that time were Carver AL-III ribbons, their design normally provides detailed and crisp sound. What a disappointment!
With a background in electrical measurements, I subsequently measured the Home Depot cables and discovered that besides their massive girth, their series inductance was very high. Since their reactance (expressed in ohms) is calculated using the formula, RL = 2pfl(not to mention that inductance increases with the physical length of the wire), it's obvious by inspection that resistance rises significantly with frequency, impeding the transmission more as the frequency increases, causing an imbalance between the bass and treble frequencies reproduced. In the case of the ribbon drivers of the AL-III, their characteristic impedance is relatively flat to 20 kHz, but an electrostatic panel, for instance, can drop to 1 ohm or less at 20 kHz, further impacting the sonic qualities associated with high inductance. In general, I have found that the lower the inductance, the better a speaker cable sounds, although it must be of adequate size to carry the intended current. I should also mention that much of the wire available now (especially from China) is not pure copper (Cu), but a mix of copper and aluminum (Cu/Al), due to cost, and it's performance is not as good as pure copper wire.
Like speaker wire, interconnect cables are also impacted by the source and load impedance of the components (e.g., preamplifier, CD player, etc.) they are connected to, but in a different way. The source and load impedance of most audio components are relatively high, compared to those associated with amplifiers and loudspeakers. For example, the line inputs (unbalanced) of my current preamp are 20 kW (relatively low, in general, however), and the source impedance of most components are also likely similar, although typically unspecified. The problem that arises in this case are those of parallel (shunt) capacitance associated with the interconnect cables. After listening using the several different interconnect cables that I owned, I subsequently measured their capacitance. Regardless of cost, I found that those with the lowest capacitance sounded the best.
If manufacturers and reviewers both wanted to provide the best information to consumers, in my opinion, they would state the electrical specifications of the cables they sell and review. For example, Stereophile® prides itself on the fact that it provides measurements on the audio components it reviews, but never (to my knowledge) have they measured the electrical characteristics of the cables they have reviewed. I suspect, however, that a request for such information from a manufacturer would be met with a response that that information is proprietary. A few dealers I have heard of actually have 'loaner' cables that customers can borrow to try in their own systems, but those dealers are few and far between.
Given that we all have different components in our audio systems, with differing source and load impedances (and operating characteristics, when it comes to loudspeakers), suffice it to say that when it comes to cables and their performance, I will reiterate that there is no 'one size fits all.' That said, it's just as obvious that no manufacturer can make the claim that their cables are the best (perhaps the most expensive). I have given some typical characteristics that I have found work for me and likely will for others, but ultimately, each individual will have to make up their own mind using their own ears.
Those who do not believe cables make a difference, you can’t change their minds. This thread will accomplish nothing just like dozens of similar threads in the pasr
+1 …bigtime
to assert that spending more on cables always make a positive difference is just as misguidedly biased and patently wrong in mirror image to an extreme position of the naysayers,…because it is ENTIRELY system dependent… full stop.
My take above is made without prejudice to the inclusion of opinions from two polar opposite agnostic or dissenting cohorts that affect our hobby experience
We know those who either lack the experience for appreciation at one end of the audio hobby spectrum; or conversely at its opposite end, an element that quietly or expressly diss the ethereal merits of “high end” audio cables
That futile and oft contentious debate arises virtually weekly in an endless, too-oft recurring, and heated debates of whether spending on high end cables are worth it or not ….blah blah.
- TAKEAWAY :
these diametrically opposed cohorts have absolutely zero chance of ever convincing the other side. ….. we carry on.
My experience with cables might be a bit different from others.
I bought Blue Jeans (Canare S11) speaker cables years ago. I just wanted some cables that were well made and at the time they were the only company to use a sonic welder on their connections. The pair was about $150
I took them and my amplifier to my dealer one day to try out some speakers. It was then that I also tried a $3000 pair of MIT speaker cables. I couldn't hear a difference at all, let alone an improvement.
About a year ago I repositioned my speakers and I needed to get longer cables. I thought it would be a good time to revisit the subject. I took home a pair of $500 Australian made ribbon cables. Well, they made a difference alright; they lacked bass and increased the highs to a level that my ears just couldn't handle.
So my conclusion is that cables definitely matter, but you need to be careful not to think that the higher the price, the better the cables.
Be suspicious of wildly expensive cables. You can't spend $20,000 to manufacture speaker cables. Watch out for junk science claims which include the attenuation of treble in speaker cables due to skin effect. The difference is about 1/100 dB for typical 8-gauge solid wire at 20kHz over direct current. Some manufacturers claim the less than 1 mm difference in signal path length on thick cables at the speed of light smears the sound.
“How can copper/silver plus different dielectric weave patterns cost so much?”
I can understand how this would drive some people crazy, especially those on a limiting budget. Besides the R (resistance), L (inductance) and C (capacitance). as mention in Iconoclast white papers here, I have no clue beyond that.
Therefore, in order to lift the sonics of my system I, like many others, have to rely on reviews including many generously offered my forum members. I don’t look for guarantees as we each have unique hearing abilities, audio chains, room conditions, noise floors, etc. Instead I look for “probability” - if many report similar sonic performance in their systems, then it’s likely that I’ll obtain similar results in my system - nothing is guaranteed.
The only exception for mine is the shielding capabilities.
Some manufacturers claim to be kings of shielding and charge you an arm & a leg for the privelage. Yet can be out-performed by a cable 30% - 50% cheaper that also generally (but maybe not always) produces something of a much higher standard & finish (in terms of materials, craftmanship and technically superior).
Mogami is a great example of the later. The Chord Company a good example of the former.
I think we are talking the same point, or close. I'm certainly not going to spend thousands on a main. But $40 (probably was $20, but Washington DC has been printing money for some time now) on a shielded power code is good insurance when dealing with cramped wiring at the component end.
My long runs (to right sub and two to phono preamp), btw, are nice, medical grade, cables stolen from a broken MRI machine. Other than really nice plugs, heavy gauge, and length they are not particularly exotic. I suppose they have no ferrous alloy of any kind, but I'm not sure that's relevant. I just ran them along the wall in typical Home Depot wire routing "tubes" to keep them neat and untangled.
@davetheoilguyA shielded cable of proper gauge can be had for $20. I think we’re making the same point. I believe most proponents of costly power cables do so not primarily because of shielding, as that’s a given. Rather they are able to hear a sound quality difference.
I personally can hear no difference between shielded power cables. That leaves me with the opinion that a costly power cable that carries no audio signal will not be my choice. Others with a different opinion or experience are certainly welcomed to do as they please. But shielding alone is not a reason to spend thousands on a short run of electrical cord.
Poorly designed components (or components that didn’t look at this issue) can have leads that act as TRANSMITTING antennas of noise.
Given the rats nests of interconnects and power leads in the back, I wouldn’t be surprised, at all, if an interconnection doesn’t pick up garbage transmitted back out from an unshielded power cable, especially if they are touching and follow parallel for a fair length.
My theory is based on a sample of one, where the power cord of my turntable laid flat against my phono cable and I could (and anyone could) hear a hiss until the two were pulled apart. Kept happening due to how everything was smashed together in my original set up.
Went away when I switched to an Amazon (nothing fancy, but definitely shielded, you can’t detect current with a “live wire” detector) mains cable.
Mind you, the phono cable is the thinnest interconnect and the MC signal the weakest signal in the chain. So the most vulnerable.
When I redesigned my rig, it made me run all interconnects XLR (including phono), picked fully balanced components (including phono amp) and took great care lay out wiring with a considerable air gap and no touching.
it’s also super sharp looking behind the scenes which makes my OCD very pleased. LOL.
Not fancy wiring, either. Mogami platinum with high end furutech ends. Speaker wire is larger gauge pure silver from a military aircraft (used for fire reasons), braided by my daughter. I doubt all in its $1000.
@decooneySure, but also note that the NASA email (granting it's authentic) is concerning a laser diode application that bears little resemblance to audio-scale electrical properties.
So, the test is very simple: take a high resolution audio stream consisting of music (you can do single tones/sweeps later). Connect the streamer to an excellent DAC using modern USB cable. Connect DAC analog output to excellent ADC using Test Cable A. Record audio. Replace Cable A with Cable B (try a bunch of budget through to expensive). Record, record, record. Align the digital signals and subtract them from one another using standard software tools. Any residual signal represents differences between the cables. If the residual spectrum is bass-rich, that might be called "tubby" by the subjectivists. More high frequency might be called "more resolving." Fair enough!
OK, so we looked at analog XLR interconnects in the above scenario. We can also do speaker cables by getting a calibrated microphone like the Umik-1 from MiniDSP and recording the track again through the streamer > DAC > amp > speaker chain. Swap cables and then compare once again to look for why folks think there's an obvious difference.
Do the same kind of thing for power cables, power conditioners, ethernet cables, etc. There may be differences! The SPDIF cables from 2013/2017 mentioned in posts above showed flaws, but SPDIF is notorious for jitter issues, especially in the old days.
We need some exciting results for the other categories of cables!
@markwd”It’s such a simple test! Much more simple than their crazy modeling …
Can you describe in some level of detail for us the test case scenario you are referring to, and what good test results would look like?
This would be helpful to understand, and for comparison to the testing NASA did before deciding to select Analysis Plus cables for one of their programs. Thanks.
@decooneyJust skimmed through it. It's fairly high level and just presents measurements that support their general theory wrt frequency effects, EMI, etc. What is missing is a simple, clear series of experimental measurements of the impact on sound reproduction. That is, like the null test I suggested above, it would be awesome to see the cables being deployed in a reproduction chain and that they measurably show improved fidelity to the original signal, reduced noise, or reduced distortion.
It's such a simple test! Much more simple than their crazy modeling of skin effects, etc. If their cables reduce distortion and noise, then I think they have a home run opportunity to show that it impacts the reproduction chain. I would love to see those results!
@markwd"...And competent and scientifically sophisticated cable manufacturers ... would be trumpeting their product measurements all day long if they in fact had any clear measurement differences to promote.".
@markwd"I look forward to more evidence in the future! I don’t see anything here except bland vitriol and bald assertions. "
@markwdI think it would be great if all the smart folks who produce cables showed some evidence. I’m always attracted to the unexpected and novel.
@markwd... The important question is when are we going to get any good evidence for cables? ...
@markwdIn any case, I have a BSEE and MSEE in information theory and signal processing, as well as PhD work in cognitive science
Now the homework begins for you, tag - your turn. What say you?
Please enlighten us or debate us more as to your own understanding or theory about cable current bunching, or skin effect, or current uniformly across a wire conductor, or resistance in a cross-sectional area of a conductor. Or, how about characteristic impedance of a cable, or series inductance, or G shunt conductance, or shunt capacitance, or "frequency smearing" in different cable designs.
You asked and poked at it, here is a manufacturer who measures and promotes it;
Analysis Plus, quote:
"...we then set about designing our own approach to audiophile cables, relying on solid, measurable data rather than subjective claims".
My simple research jives with lanx0003. Low capacitance is a good thing. Mogami is popular in recording studios and in live performance for that reason.
In an ideal world I agree that customers would be better served knowing exactly what they are buying including the manufacturers costs including R&D and markup. However, we live in a competitive market with many copycats. If these manufacturers revealed their “secret sauce” derived from their efforts and expense, other would quickly copy at the manufacturer’s expense. Subsequently trying to sue copycats would be financially prohibitive and nearly impossible such as Chinese copycats and recouping their expenses from their efforts would be impossible (I hate to use this word but none other fits as well).
In a way, I sort of got around some uncertainty but purchasing Siltech Classic Legend which is silver impregnated with gold. The price is somewhat higher than other silver cable offerings but at least I have a clue of the value of what I purchased - better metallurgy vs no clue.
@kennyc@dave_bOther than the qualitative description of removing undesirable capacitance, resistance, etc., Masterbuilt and/or Transparent cable manufactures seem not being transparent about the technical specifications. While it is not uncommon for high-end or boutique cable manufacturers to emphasize qualitative descriptions and subjective evaluations in their marketing, rather than providing detailed technical specifications, the omission of such transparency impedes customers from making informed decisions when acquiring expensive products like these. It is advisable to reach out directly to the manufacturers to obtain these details before making a substantial investment, however.
Combined with proprietary counter-helix winding geometry to avoid inductance and capacitance interactions, the Signature Line also offers the world’s finest quality connectors to transmit the musical signal with accuracy.
By the elimination of parasitic effects of excess resistance, capacitance, and inductance, the Signature Interconnects can transmit the musical signal so faithfully that their introduction to your system will be as dramatic as any major component upgrade.
Years ago in the WBF forum, engineers and scientists were debating the claims on the Masterbuilt Cables website. The Masterbuilt were designed by the same government scientists working on superconductors (no, Masterbuilt is not a superconductor, merely that the government scientists are at the cutting edge of this field). After back and forth debate, a Masterbuilt scientist finally entered the fray with an answer that went way over my head. This silence the debate. I come to realize that even great scientists or engineers knowledge/reasoning pales in comparison to experts in the field.
The biggest audible improvements I have experienced are with cables that actually address audio transmission issues, such as Transparent Audio and MIT. All the other variations on a wire theme are fairly close together, as long as they are well constructed.
Thank you for going through the process and reporting the results, which did not surprise me. The rule of thumb is to judge by their capacitance specs between conductors (see below). Mogami 2549 (standard dual conductors) has substantially lower capacitance than the rest. I can attest to the experience of using Mogami 2549 as an interconnect cable in the past years, and it has been quite satisfactory. The reason behind this is that the combination of the cable’s capacitance and the output impedance of the source could form a low-pass filter that affects higher-end signal frequencies.
Mogami 2549 also has much lower capacitance than its quad-conductor peer, 2534 (97 pF/m), and the somehow popular Canare L-4E65 (also quad) cable (150 pF/m). The user feedback among these three was similar: Mogami 2549 is the outperformer.
(Cable brand/model - capacitance, pF/m)
Mogami 2549 - 11
Grimm TPR - 33
Gotham Gac-3 - 150
Vovox Excelsus - 100
@crozboshe recorded the same section using each of the our XLR cables I have on hand: Vovox Excelsus, Mogami 2549, Gotham GAC-3, and Grimm TPR. Each of the cables have the same Neutrik connector ... The differences were not small and very apparent. In the end, the Mogami cable was the winner — it seemed more open and warmer than the other cables and suited the tone of her voice the best.
@crozboyou are dead right that cables make a difference in your sonics. I also had a revelation recently about the sonic benefits of a high quality power cord on my monoblock amplifiers. I truly think some of the cable deniers either have not carefully auditioned them or the simply can't hear the differences. I just laugh heartily at the notion that cables don't sound different or that I can't hear the impact of supertweeters in my system.
Now about that car thing analogy I have the stress reliever of doing the open road challenges.there are 5 in America 2 in Texas 2 in Nevada and 1 in Nebraska. The dep of transportation shuts the road down for most of the day.there is a course worker every mile with radios and ham radios throughout the start to finish.usually 60 miles down then regrid 60 miles back. Helicopters and fix wing planes in the air to monitor.cars go off in 1 min intervals.my tires have to be less than 2 years old. (Y) rated I've only blown 3 in the decades of doing this at 180mph. Nothing like a stero at 200 plus mph.enjoy life and the music. You tube it you are all welcome to join the event.
I think size matters I am 10 gauge kind of professor.but there are some that claim the majority of electrons hover on the outside wires mostly.bigger has less resistance.now what about shielding copper. braided aluminum ect.solid wire verses stranded then how many strands.do you put it on a drill and spin the plus and minus to make it spiral.so many options.enjoy the music ant the stimulation of the cerebral mind experimenting it will keep you young.
Audio is not immune to the basic law of diminishing returns. With apologies for a Captain Obvious moment, the difference between a Kia Kona and a Porsche Macan that differ in price by, say, $60k is greater than that between two super cars that might differ by $400k in price.
My system is good enough that my enjoyment improved when I swapped out Amazon cables and interconnects for $500 worth of Mogami and Carnare products. Would I get as good an ROI then going to $10k worth of cabling? Surely not, as my whole decently thoughtful rig cost me less than $5k.
This is economic reality that is probably true in principle for every part of a home system’s audio chain, There’s no tire in the world that will make my VW Taos lap the Ring as fast as a WEC HyperCar.
PS Audio’s Paul McGowan gives helpful answers to emailed questions in his YouTube channel. Long before he made any speakers, that was the component he recommended to a questioner who asked about the single best component investment that would improve listening enjoyment.
That makes sense because it’s all about moving air, so cables must matter, but only in proportion to the quality of the rest of your components.
Well this thread sure ran longer than a few mic cables 😅
Main discrepancy is revealed by the term belief. Belief is best applied to things that can’t be experimentally assessed. While it’s obvious for some pursuits, it doesn’t need to apply to comparing electronic playthings in lieu of properly controlled analyses.
If a person declines applicability of scientific methodology over an assemblage of anecdotal opinions based on invisible perceptions, and that person is an adult, a change of mindset might be less likely. This in no way is limited to audio stuff.
There seems to be high correlation between folks who think audible difference between cables is predictable and folks who do not prioritize properly controlled assessment to demonstrate said predictability being reality. Those folks may think they have a firm grasp on the scientific method, however, which can be a complication for level exchange of ideas moving forward.
There also seems to be correlation between folks who understand scientific methodology, and folks who get flustered over the aforementioned mindset saying audible differences in cables is definitely predictable.
Adults can be challenging to educate (convert?) on the scientific method (including experimental design and statistical analysis; never mind the psychology element behind preference studies…) if they already… believe… they have a firm grasp on how it is supposed to work.
That is the process - not just the pattern - why cables and all other discrepancies about predictable difference in audible sound - can’t be sorted in one short exchange of thread back-and-forth’s. It really should be that easy, and that neutral.* 😬
*neutral in the emotional denotation of the word, and not the array of ways in which it’s applied to audiophilia 😜
Bad cables make a bigger difference than good cables, and beyond a certain level of build and materials quality, good cable make very little relative difference compared to other huge factors like the quality of the source component and the acoustic qualities of the room itself.
Correcting room acoustic deficiencies yields vastly superior sonic benefits that anyone can usually hear right away. So if you purchase a well made pair of cables and spend a few hundred dollars on them, or a few thousand dollars on them, you won’t hear "better" or "worse" sound, you’ll hear subtle differences.
There is a huge placebo effect with things like cables (assuming the cables are appropriate for the gear you’re connecting them to), and another huge potential for good old confirmation bias. If you like what you hear, then great, keep them and move on, but if you think that more money equals better sonics, you’re most likely just fooling yourself. Beyond good build and materials quality there is no correlation between price and sound quality.
I once placed a bet that no one could rank a series of cables by price in a controlled setting where they had no idea which set they were actually listening to. This has been tried before-- can’t be done once you eliminate the confirmation bias. So buy what you want and like what you like, but the wild claims made by cablemakers are about as reliable as those made by any other industry loaded with snake-oil salesmen-- vitamins and supplements come to mind-- huge claims constantly made, and a growing body of hard scientific evidence that almost all of those claims just do not hold up when tested with any degree of scientific rigour.
There are usually better ways to make your system sound better than fussing endlessly with cables-- unless you’re using some really bad quality or outright defective cables-- the differences will be akin to trying two really good cabernets -- you go with what tastes the best to you, hopefully, and not just blindly assume the more expensive one is necessarily the better one. "Better" is subjective, NOT objective.
I should also footnote this comment by mentioning the laughably obscene profit margins enjoyed by many cable makers that sell their products in the four and five figure price ranges. P.T. Barnum personified.
I just got off the phone with my audio engineer. He has 40+ years experience in the industry. Besides building and repairing audio gear and guitar amps, he is also a recording engineer. He is also a guitarist and in the blues hall of fame.
We were talking about other issues but at the end I asked him about The Cable Wars.
it was a good 10-15 minute discussion but the Cliff Note version of his response is this: it’s all about the Benjamins. Make people believe, and you make more money. At the end, he said at best, cables may - may - make 1% difference, if that. The money is better spent elsewhere.
He agreed that far more attention should be put into room acoustics, that is where there is still a relative dearth of knowledge: witness how many times concert halls are redesigned and they still get it wrong.
I will conclude by posing the following question.
Suppose for the sake of argument - pun not intended - that it is absolutely true that cable interconnects make a big difference. Why then, is this philosophy not applied to all the internal wiring through all the components in an audio system: turntables, CD players, amps, preamps, speakers … and I am thinking in particular about those two skinny little braided wires that connect the spider to the cone.
BTW, a few years ago I said that I was disappointed in the sound of the recording that you did of the Mikis Theodorakis / Pablo Neruda “Canto General”.
I played it for the first time since I got my amps back from being away for months for refurbishing. My engineer said that due to the 40 year age of the amps, many parts - not just the tubes, which were running at only 60% of full strength - were at the end of their useful life. Without going into details at the moment, other than to say that he discovered an error that Julius Futterman made in his design over 50 years ago that for some reason everyone missed all of these years and that he corrected - it appears that the problem was with my aging - and ailing - amps and not your recording. My bad!
The fact that cables can make some small differences, which some will describe as huge differences, does not erase the fact that in audio it is the other factors that matter.
This reveal why cables obsession reflect ignorance. Not because cables dont matter but because their impact is completely secondary.
Cables thread are pathetic threads opposing two deluded groups for opposite reason. 😁
I look forward to more evidence in the future! I don't see anything here except bland vitriol and bald assertions. There are some negative results conducted by Amir at ASR that seem to fit with expectations based on conventional science, but who knows what the future holds?
I think it would be great if all the smart folks who produce cables showed some evidence. I'm always attracted to the unexpected and novel.
Yes. And I’d like to add that good cables will improve the sound of an audio component/system, regardless of cost. Examples: speaker cable upgrades on a $300 compact shelf system. Power cord upgrade on a $99 (retail) plate amp. There are other examples.
I have the newspaper article with the quote in it. I clipped it. I moved and I’m still unpacking. I’ll be happy to show it it you when I get my hands on it.
i believe it’s The NY Times or WaPo debunking the absurd amounts spent on audio gear. And this was 15 or 20 years ago. It’s much worse now.
... no one is obliged to follow your belief system ...
My "belief system" is that audiophiles should conduct their own experiments to their own satisfaction and make their own decisions, as opposed to demanding certain kinds of "evidence" from others. I can’t imagine why that might trouble you, @unreceivedogma.
The guy who founded Monster Cable himself said that the whole notion of high end cables was a marketing hoax designed to exploit gullible audiophiles.
... The important question is when are we going to get any good evidence for cables? ...
If that’s the important question, then the next question is: When are you going to start collecting this evidence, rather than requesting that we do your work for you?
As you know, there is abundant evidence. It’s just not the type of evidence you like..
@markwd, I have seen some research work on people being able to detect sounds outside of the typical 20kHz window, though it seems largely irrelevant to music reproduction, so while there might be yet-to-be-understood science out there, the default intellectually honest posture is wait-and-see while instead focusing on what we know impacts audio reproduction.
Your statement in italics hardly suggests you are scientific in your approach to a topic. Show us your research into and the proof of your conclusion. The ability for a system to produce a response way higher than 20kHz is highly relevant. It is why supertweeters with output up to 90kHZ brings so much to the party. Although a sine wave above 20kHz can not be heard by the human ear it forms part of the sound wave. The high harmonics complete the waveform rendering the resultant sound more lifelike. Go do research you may be able to learn something and consider using your ears sometime. The science is understood just not by you.
Flashing your credentials is totally underwhelming and it appears that your vast knowledge has not endowed you with an open and reasoning stance. Remember there was a time not too long ago that scientists proved conclusively that a bumblebee could not fly which of course was later debunked.
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