@cal91 As a retiree that’s a little insulting. But in my case it’s also true. I am a candidate for knee replacement and I have no desire to sit through several songs I don’t want to hear to get to the song I do want to hear. With CDs I can touch a button on a remote. Problem solved. If there was an option for me that meant I didn’t have to get up constantly I would buy a turntable. But that brings me to another problem brought up bt paulburnett. Digital is more convenient for sure, this is why streaming is the most popular format for younger generation when internet is all around and music is free. What is good about CD is booklets inside (good read sometimes). In my retirement there will be no CDs. CD associated with 90’s in my memory, don’t know anyone in my circle of friends (40+) who collect CDs nowadays, if it’s digital then it’s on hard drive or streaming. But many collect vinyl. I think cassette tape (and tape swap) was a great era. It was easier to copy CD on cassette tape than to buy an original CDs (here in Russia). Then pirate CDs flooded the market, but i was deeply into vinyl at that time. |
@mahgister...By acoustical embeddings do you mean room treatment? If so, I'd be interested to know what you do. I feel like I should explore this before spending money to change components. |
I'm not going to make the argument that CDs can compare in sound quality to vinyl. But let's not forget the importance of the engineer's dedication to sound quality. Some labels sound great. While others suck. Every jazz CD I have on Bluenote is of very high SQ. Most of Leonard Cohen's recordings on Columbia are superb. While some other artists I have on Columbia are of mediocre quality. There should be industry standards but it seems many labels don't care about the group of people who actually care about sound quality. |
@chakster
As a retiree that's a little insulting. But in my case it's also true. I am a candidate for knee replacement and I have no desire to sit through several songs I don't want to hear to get to the song I do want to hear. With CDs I can touch a button on a remote. Problem solved. If there was an option for me that meant I didn't have to get up constantly I would buy a turntable. But that brings me to another problem brought up bt paulburnett.
@paulburnett
I go to thrift stores to look for CDs and like you said they are there cheap. Some stores have incredible selections of classical recordings which is what I am mostly looking for. When I look over at the LPs there's always at least one person perusing through the bin. Those people know what they are doing and it's very unlikely they are going to leave any gold nuggets behind. The alternative is to pay exorbitant prices for LPs at specialty shops or eBay. Not going to happen on a fixed income, at least not for me. |
Adding my 2 cents, vinyl setup *requires* a cleaning regimen to have even satisfactory sound. It’s a pain-in-the-rear, but without cleaning records they are noisy as hell. I enjoy my dads vinyl, and it has its moments, but CDs are far and away more consistently pleasing and satisfying.
If you want to choose one or the other, my vote would be to spend your $700 on a Chord DAC. You’ll find *much* more of that Liquidy *analogue* sound that is so pleasing. |
@twoleftears
Usually the car that goes around corners better will out perform acceleration. Driver dependent of coarse |
@cakyol
Not true if you listen to vintage vinyl or reissues kept in analog, or the modern audiophile recordings done on tape. This does narrow down the listening options but many of us choose these recordings almost exclusively.
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teo audio
All sound studios record almost everything digitally today. 95% of the analog you think you are listening to has already been a to deed once at the microphone and dee to aed again onto the vinyl. So even in the best analog system you have, you are already listening to digital, twice converted. It is 21 st century guys. There are virtually no analog recording studios left anywhere.
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Just listen to some vinyl systems and some digital systems. Some people don’t care that much. If you do prefer the vinyl set up and are willing the extra effort than it’s a good choice. Asking us is quite irrelevant. For me vinyl is a no brainer. For others they feel their digital is good enough. So it’s obviously a better choice for them.
As far as the comments “the best digital is compatible to the best analog. Who cares, I’d care more about enjoying all my music collection. And this is accomplished more with analog for myself. And I accept other find different.
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As I oft counsel, the CD is not (rpt not) the problem, it can contain tremendous dynamic range and signal to noise ratio, and all of the intricate Information from the original tape. The problem, gentle readers arises when the CD is played back 🔙 on CD players, even very expensive CD players! Hey, where did all the information and dynamic range go?!! 😩
And I’m not even talking about CDs that have the life compressed out of them, which accounts for the majority these days, I’m talking about good CDs. Heck, you’re lucky if you get 75 dB dynamic range out of a CD. |
The bog standard CD will give you 96db dynamic range, which is still about 25db better than even the BEST vinyl.
Please research the LSB ADC problem. the initial problem is in the ADC, the analog to digital conversion. there is no suitable analog to digital converter in existence anywhere.
And that is just the start of the problems with digital. Specific implacable problems that analog does not have at all... Dither exists as a thing, in a feeble and failed attempt to shine a turd. But wait...there's more. Much more.... |
What do you do about Electrical grid noise ? You can bought for example, better power supplies, power conditioner, power cleaner or regulator, power harmonizer, etc All these are electronic components that introduce noise of their own...They work by some filtration and trade-off operations in some range more than another... The best they are the more they cost, thousand of dollars easily.... I dont have this money... I try something for the last years on my own... I use some minerals to passively filtrate the electro magnetic grid of my house to decrease the noise level, instead of active electronic components.... My best creation was the "golden plate" which is made of a shungite plate with a side covered with copper tape...The copper side always external to the surface applied on.. I use also other minerals with success... The noise level of my main electrical noise decrease amazingly... Low cost solution.... All audio system must be embedded in the electrical grid of the house.... The other embeddings environment are the resonance vibration mechanical embeddings... The more important is the acoustical embeddings, i treat it not only passively but actively... The 3 controlled embeddings are the only sure way for an OPTIMAL use of any audio system... Cost nothing, except peanuts and all my ideas are implemented with homemade materials or very low cost products... There is a total mutation in S. Q. from before to after the installation of the controls of the 3 embeddings for my audio system....Like day and night.... Before upgrading your electronic component at high cost, why not listen to their true potential before any move? |
Mahgister,
Thanks for the clarification. I had no idea what you meant by the three embeddings; certainly sounded mysterious :-)
What do you do about
Electrical grid noise ?
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«Facts are like anvil they cannot fly on your face» -Groucho Marx |
God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason.
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Ok I give up LOL....
I guess you guys have made your minds up, I will not confuse you with the facts any more :-)
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That may be true theoretically but as I said they compress the CD so much these days, it looks like a flatline. Have you checked out the dynamic range database. OMG 😆 Plus as I just said the CD players can’t retrieve the full dynamic range on the CD whatever it is, anyway. So what’s the point?
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The bog standard CD will give you 96db dynamic range, which is still about 25db better than even the BEST vinyl.
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But I was referring to the CD, not vinyl. It’s difficult to compare apples and oranges anyway, there are a great many variables involved with both LP and CD so I won’t make any categorical statements. 😀
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@geoffkait
That is the WHOLE point. No matter what, music pressed on to the vinyl MUST be compressed down to 70db. It can NOT be written otherwise.
So, 144db is compressed down to 70db in the BEST case.
The bog standard CD gives you 96db dynamic range.
How does that make vinyl better than CD or 192/24 ? |
144 dB of dynamic range ain’t going to do you much good if the mastering engineers compress the life out of the recording. Garbage in 🔜 garbage out. 🔚 The CD player has inherent problems that prevent the full dynamic range - whatever it is - from being recovered from the disc, anyway. You can’t win.
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Reproduced from an audio engineer at Dolby laboratories: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The state of the art digital audio, at 192kHz/24-bit, is the highest fidelity medium available to the average consumer anyway. That allows the disc itself to deliver a 144dB dynamic range and perfectly sample frequencies up to 96kHz. However, you're highly unlikely to find any analog hardware that'll reproduce that as is. But it's entirely possible to create a work that fully uses that range, as long as you're mixing digitally. You can get 192kHz/24-bit audio in 2-channels on DVD-Audio and in up to eight channels on Blu-ray disc. Consider for a minute what 144dB of dynamic range actually means, though. If you had a stereo that could faithfully reproduce that, you wouldn't be able to hear very quiet passages unless you had the very loud passages capable of being so loud they could actually do damage to your hearing. So, for example, set the level to exactly match the dB,spl scale (sound pressure level, measured in dB). Your threshold of hearing is 0-20dB,spl depending on frequency, but over 130 db,spl or so, your ears are screaming in pain and might be permanently damaged. So this would cover the entire audible range. LPs are increasing in popularity these days, but kind of in spite of their specs. An LP can in theory reproduce audio up to about 40kHz, but it has to be half or quarter-speed mastered for that, because otherwise, the cutting lathe would be damaged. And most turntables can't get close to reproducing that range, that's one of the things very expensive audiophile turntables give you. An LP can also only deliver about 60dB dynamic range, about 12-bits worth. Some very good pressings on very high quality vinyl might extend that to 65-70dB, but it's not even close to CD.
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Buy an SL1200 if you like to hear hum... i was a DJ too and this turntable was the best ti mix, but it’s nowhere near a HiFi one. I have SL1210mkII since i was 19 and no hum even in the headphones @russhealy Cardas tonearm rewire kit cost $50 for two turntables, external phono cable cost $150, so the total upgrade cost $200 (if you have soldering skills). Everything else depends on a cartridge, the turntable provide stable rotation. I’ve been using $3000 MC Zyx Airy III on this upgraded turntable - no hum ! Excellent result with T echnics 205c mk4 and Technics 100c mk3 cartridges and many more killer MM and MI. Some people complain only about Grado cartridges, but i have no hum with my Grado on SL1210mkII. Watching Grado factory tour you will see even older Technics turntable, this is where they can test cartridges. Today SL1210mkII cost $350 max (used) and at this price there is NOTHING better than this, except for some vintage stuff. In Japan those Technics SL1200 mk3 cost $150 used ! Jelco tonearm was very popular upgrade, if you can buy SL1200 mk3 for $150 and Jelco for $300 then it's a fine machine for the money. |
I - Sell what I don't like
-Buy what works
-Don't buy cheap,cause I hate selling
I've embedded this strategy
Cheers
Your strategy is approved by my office... Cheers .... :) |
roberjerman
This question has been around since the arrival of the first CD players in 1983! And that was the Hitachi vertical loader - $1000! >>>>Hitachi had the right idea, eliminating the effects of gravity on the spinning disc thus eliminating the tendency of CDs to flutter and wobble during play in one swell foop. |
Mahgister
I - Sell what I don't like
-Buy what works
-Don't buy cheap,cause I hate selling
I've embedded this strategy
Cheers
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This question has been around since the arrival of the first CD players in 1983! And that was the Hitachi vertical loader - $1000! I was at Audiocom (Old Greenwich, CT) and listened to it with the few discs then available. It did not sound good! No contest against the TOTL Denon DD TT/arm/cartridge! And I didn't buy my first CD player until 1992 - a Technics with a Bit-Stream DAC! Now I have seven or more players of varying pedigrees - and 2000+ CDs. But I still collect, clean and play LPs, even with all their hassles! And prefer that vinyl sound over the the silent backgrounds and convenience of digital! Apples and pears. I guess! And the TT collection has grown to 20 or so! OCD! Not to mention my guitar collection! |
Buy an SL1200 if you like to hear hum... i was a DJ too and this turntable was the best ti mix, but it's nowhere near a HiFi one.
You mentioned CD, it depends on the one you compare. CD can be great or...mediocre. I've converted my best plates into FLAC, same fir my CD collection and now i have it all at my fingertip!
I use a good HiFi USB DAC with my soundsystem and it sounds great. I use volumio (web interface/android client) and mpd/ncmpcpp (my linux server).
Vinyl: no thanks. Inferior media but sure it's ok if you like the sound!
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As a relatively new vinyl come back, I can say I prefer the overall vinyl experience vs CD/digital. Having said that, there are times when listening to LP’s simply isn’t practical. I still listen to cd’s, and I listen to a lot of digital music as well. To answer your specific question... it depends. While a “$700 table” might be able to be set up well and blow away some cd setups, it just depends. It isn’t as simple as the turntable alone. The good thing is 700.00 isn’t the end of the world investment wise. It’s still a good amount of coin, but in the big scheme of hifi land, not so much. It’s a rather inexpensive experiment. See if you can find some of your favorite bands/tunes on vinyl and do a head to head... I think you will be surprised...
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@mcmvmx: I’m no expert, but when I wrote that, I was referring to the noted (here noted) superior sound of vinyl versus that of CD’s. The latter are recorded at 16/44.1, while I am recording the vinyl at a conversion rate of 24/96. So, if you start out with superior sound from vinyl and then record that at 24/96, it seemed to me that I would end up with a better sounding recording than is found on CD. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong, but an explanation would be helpful. |
Very unlikely. Two completely different mediums. One destroys what is being played a little bit every time and the other is contactless and digital, no audible noise and at higher sampling frequencies almost indistinguishable from the true recording.
Regardless of what everyone will claim here about turntables/vinyl, they will never reach the quietness and dynamic range of a CD or SACD. An engineering impossibility.
I have a pretty good turntable and love listening to it. Nice to look at.... but I am also real about it as well. It is a dying technology, just like anything else when its time comes. One day, something else will come and will kill digital too. Only a matter of time......
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While I tend to prefer vinyl for several of the reasons mentioned by others, the one that sounds best on my system really boils down to the particular recording. At it’s best, I do tend to feel more like I’m at the venue with vinyl, but I can certainly enjoy CD too.
I’ve got a decent cartridge that’s well matched with the arm on a modest turntable (AT-LP120XUSB with VM95SH shibata stylus...< $400 invested), and am getting better sound from it than I ever expected. At first the TT clearly sounded more detailed to me than my Denon CD440, but after I added a low cost Topping E30 DAC, CDs sometimes sound pretty darn good, depending on the recording. So there’s hope for both.
The rest of your system can make a huge difference how both sound. The clearer it is, the more differences you can hear.
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I have my primary turntable in the shop for some upgrades.
In the mean time I bought a innuos zen III and a line magnetic dac. I also purchased a technics sl 1800 with a ortofon black MM cartridge.
I think the two are close to equal. Neither compare to my primary turntable |
You are very good in sarcasm....can you really think also?
The 3 embeddings is not a dogma, it is an expression, a designation of 3 elementary task to upgrade any audio system.... That gives more change in S.Q. than anything else almost....
Vibrations-resonance problem...
Electrical grid noise level controls....
Acoustical field of the room transforming by passive and active methods....
Amen....
By the way i sell nothing, buy nothing, and do it with cheap material or very low cost electronic components by myself....
Who is deluded then?
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Ah little grasshopper - the three-fold embeddings are the path to truth and Nirvana; All else is Maya, which some call illusion). Even as the holy Trinity guides our steps and the three Margas - righteously followed - lead to Moksha. While the 3-in-1 icecream satisfies the cravings of the mortal coil...
Come on Mahgister - HELP! |
Get yourself a CD player and move on.
If you're not already established in vinyl and $700 is your budget...CD is the way to go. Excellent sound, more available music and way more bang for your buck.
I own two turntables and around 4k vinyl albums....but I'm 66 years old and already knee-deep in this hobby for 5 decades. If I were starting out today, I wouldn't give vinyl the time of day. I'd concentrate on tightening up my digital game.
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Many turntables will outperform a CD player if natural SQ is desired. That’s all folks. |
Everything is online, sometime more expensive, but almost everything can be found. Discogs is the source and with PayPal buyers protection full refund guaranteed if there is something wrong with condition. Reputable sellers do not overgrade the records normally, check the feedbacks on discogs before buying. |
One more consideration. Do you live in an area where there is a lot of vinyl available? If you live in a large city, with plenty of record stores, you may be able to feed the vinyl habit easier and quite possibly cheaper. This will probably matter less if you are collecting primarily rock or pop, but jazz and more esoteric genres tend to be more prevalent in larger metro areas and/or more affluent areas, and those arty-hip ones.
To me part of the allure of LPs is hitting the record stores , preferably with a friend. At first I shopped thrift stores, but found them to be not worth my time and effort. ( I did hit one store at the right time once, and picked up some real gems,but only once).Of course there's always online purchases, but I personally find them a bit more risky, unless you purchase new. Even then one has to hope the delivery person doesn't leave them in in the sun if the weather is hot.
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Hi,
get a tt, all above mentioned ones will give you at least enough pleasure and I bet your next upgrade will be still on analogue. |
Whichever has the lowest volume. |
Schubert which one is Metallica better on?
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Depends on what music you listen to .
On acoustic music Vinyl is better , on rock is irrelevant .
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Even Joe Biden say's "make sure you have the record player on at night". Hey, perhaps he's even a member here under an assumed name. Well, it ain't millercarbon. Although it could be Geoff. (jk) |
How about all/and as opposed to either/or? I agree with noromance - get the Technics and have fun. This is a hobby - well, at least for me - so you can always tweak, upgrade, try new gear. If you like vinyl, you can upgrade to any number of affordable tables. I also agree that used LP's sound great, no absolute need for the re-issued (with the exception of some truly extraordinary reissues like The Band 45rpm and Mile Davis Kind of Blue 45rpm). a good record cleaner can make a difference. The Spin Clean system is under 100 and works great. I stream, play CD's, listen to vinyl - comparing/contrasting can be fun :) |
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Car A accelerates faster and car B goes round corners better. Which of them outperforms the other? |
and..as Biden's inside joke, a name made up/pulled from the first and last names of all the people on the arkancide list.
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Even Joe Biden say's "make sure you have the record player on at night". Hey, perhaps he's even a member here under an assumed name. 👍 |
The latter being how we arrived at this mess that we have today, one where engineering prettiness (i’s dotted, t’s crossed...) is more important that the reality of human hearing, human hearing --which is not looked at by the specialized people doing the ADC/DAC engineering. I will gladly second you on that.... But for the eternal analog/digital debate, my point and experience is the 3 embeddings of an audio system contribute way much to the S.Q. than the choice of a dac or a turntable.... But who gives a damn for embedding the audio element where they cost so much in dollars and are state of the art? Almost nobody....I know because the discussions are about vinyl or digital, cables, tube amplifier versus S.S. etc.... All that totally secondary in S.Q. to the rightfully 3 embeddings in a dedicated room.... :) |
