Will a $700 turntable outperform a CD player?

The way I understand it is that digital has finite digits.....no digits to limit LP

 I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to the good people at audiogon and whoever it was that I said crass things about I am normally not like that at all and value everybody's opinion I thank you very much for not kicking me off the site and giving me a second chance this will never happen again all I can say in my defense is that what a little bit of alcohol can do to a person's brain

@dutchydog 

Yes Miller carbon might bore you but just scan past. It’s more bothersome to listen to people be rude about someone else’s post. There’s better ways to make a comment.  I miss the old days when people were more respectful to each other. 

Yes and no.It depends .But I still love getting good cds now for like a buck.Yesterday I got Tin Machine first and Miles Davis Essential double cd never opened both for 2 bucks .20 years ago they would of cost 30 bucks .They sound excellent. I'm old school ,I  like having the cd of lp .

Before my Nos dac, all other sigma one sounded harsh with unnatural instrument timbre....

Before implementing the controlling methods i use for the mechanical resonance embeddings, the electrical house embeddings, and the most important acoustical room embeddings, all my sigma dac never sound right... 


With a modest NOS dac, Starting point Systems, and all the embeddings under my controls.... Upgrading to a costlier dac never comes to my mind again....This NOS dac kills all my sigma one to oblivion even a well known  good one...

Conclusion: Any piece of electronic component in an audio system cannot be at his S.Q. potential level without these embeddings controls.... This is the lesson in my audio journey.... :)

A lot of it is truly (as people have said here) personal taste.  I am one of those who have never felt the CD sound was right.  My ears keep telling me something is amiss.

@cal91:  Think of all the exercise you could be getting if you had to keep getting up to tend the turntable.  As the old say goes, “Use it or lose it!”  😉😆

Sometimes, but it all depends upon the recording.

I once heard a basic Pro-Ject deck (way under $700) playing an Elvis LP totally outperform a Sony ES CD player playing back the same songs. The CD sounded flat and restrained, whilst the LP had punch and drive.

I must also add that it wasn’t a case of like for like because the LP and CD were different compilations. I don’t know if it’s just me but Elvis on CD has always tended to sound a little too polite whereas on the other hand The Smiths on CD can sound at least as good the vinyl releases. Louder Than Bombs sounded great on CD.

Mastering matters more than format in many cases as I don’t think any CD player at any price would have matched the vinyl cut in that example, not with that CD.

I’m guessing that since albums recorded before 1980 were cut with vinyl in mind, their later CD counterparts are always going to be nothing more or nothing less than digital interpretations of the originals according to the mastering engineer responsible.

Similarly most recordings after 1990 would have been mastered for Compact Disc, so any vinyl issues would again be mastering interpretations of the original digital recording.

This makes it very difficult to compare like for like when it comes to comparing vinyl and digital recordings as you’re not only hearing different formats but different masterings too.

I personally don't think a $700 TT will out perform your cd player. 

First, most people dont have the right dac....nor the right analog set-up....

Second, the 3 controlled embeddings (mechanical,electrical,acoustical)are more important for the S.Q. than most electronic components choices unbeknowst to most....And no electronic component manufacturer can insist about these essentials points even if they have the clues or knowledge if they dont want to decrease their sales and pitch marketing practice...

Third, like someone just said, too many factors are involved to decrete some judgment or opinions based on limited experience by almost all people on non-controlled audio embeddings systems....

technics Sl1200’s ? sure a $200 item will for sure blow it out of the water

many factors involved  Frank,  4 years ago maybe Not today,    imo

In my humble opinion, yes

Vinyl rules. Digital - not so much!

I pay for a nos dac 24 dollars....The sound is totally holographic and not veiled by digital glare.... Upgrading dont come to my mind you know why?

Because with a good source already the increasing in S.Q. comes more way more from the way you controls the 3 embeddings of the audio system....

I pity those who spend thousand and thousand of dollars for at best a microscope or a " digital sounding dac", mine sound like a tube amplifier with details.... The reason is the dac is good to begins with but the controls of the embeddings very good .... I know because it takes me 2 years of experiments each weeks to go there with the same speakers, dac, and amplifier....The difference is staggering...

No upgrade of dac 2 years ago  at any price would have given me that...... And i will die with the dac  i own now....If i win big money i will buy other speakers but first a tube Berning Zotl amplifier.... :)

Sometimes. 

It isn't that simple. That's because many commercial CDs and digital files have been substantially compressed as part of the Loudness Wars, while an LP may be given kinder treatment and have a wider dynamic range. Digital often doesn't take advantage of its theoretical technical advantages.

 Agree, but CDs choice is huge. And modern DACs play DSD... 

If you buy a good high-end turntable and pickup arm, future upgrades won't be required or even necessarily advantageous. (Although you will have to replace your stylus or phono cartridge every so often.)

Yes, but "hi-end" is a key word here. 

Hmmm, you make digital sound like a money pit.

:-))  Only if you buy new and don't know what you are doing.

Yes, an inexpensive, well built turntable can outperform many CD players (especially the 40 or 50 I tried from it's inception to 2005).  I have found that modern CD players, and; in particular, recent DACs with separate transports with well mastered CDs will sound superior to an inexpensive turntable.  My reference is a souped up VPI TNT VI/modified SME IV/Benz Ruby3 versus an EAR Acute and COS Engineering D2 DAC.  Now I have leveled the playing field and I get tremendous pleasure from my best records and best CDs.  My ratio of great CDs versus great LPs is is higher.  I have many less than spectacular LPs in my 25,000 collection whereas, especially jazz and classical, I have so many finely remastered CDs.  If I were a analog novice, a good old Technics would have been better than my initial setups of a Dual 1209, an Empire,  a Rotel then a Connisseur table with an Audiocraft arm.  To really get into high quality analog, I purchased a VPI 19 (upgraded to a -4) with a moded SME IV arm with a Dynavector Ruby.  That killed CDs in the 1980s and 1990s.  By 2005, my current system made CD listening as good as LP.  

relaks

... if you are going to collect recent shiny issues to play on your new TT, just forget about outperforming a good digital source. Simply because this "analogue" record is a conversion of a digital studio recording ...

It isn't that simple. That's because many commercial CDs and digital files have been substantially compressed as part of the Loudness Wars, while an LP may be given kinder treatment and have a wider dynamic range. Digital often doesn't take advantage of its theoretical technical advantages.

... a TT is a major money pit, buying it is just a beginning, and for most the very nature of a TT will lead to tinkering and upgrades ...

Not necessarily. If you buy a good high-end turntable and pickup arm, future upgrades won't be required or even necessarily advantageous. (Although you will have to replace your stylus or phono cartridge every so often.)

I had several DACs in the last 20 years - Trivista, Reimyo, Naim and some other names I don’t even remember. Now I have Innuos ZEN mk3 + Aqua La Voce S3 as my main source ...

Hmmm, you make digital sound like a money pit.

If you want to play a vinyl record it will always be better on a turntable than the awful noise it would make trying to cram it into the CD player.

@twoleftears Car B.... I used to race in SCCA. 

another vote for the mnpctech footers, they'll also do custom orders. I've got set on my Linn Sondek and Sota Sapphire.

https://www.mnpctech.com/collections/turntable-lsolation-feet  

I picked up a SL1200 MK2 a few months ago for about $500.  I have way more than $700 into it now, probably close to $2K.  It came with the KAB RCA jack upgrade and had no dust cover.  I bought a new dust cover for it and have since added the KAB fluid damper and put a Funk Achromat on it and replaced the feet with MNPCTECH feet.  And then of course (at least with the RCA jack upgrade) you have cables and most importantly, the cartridge.  And since I have a few cartridges, those need headshells, and then I need something to put the headshells in... 

Up next, I just got some Fo.Q tape which I plan to use on the tonearm.

After doing all those things, it rivals the sound of my VPI Classic 2 with a Kiseki Blue NS cartridge and both sound better than my Marantz KI Pearl SACD player, which is no slouch and when new retailed for $3000.

And then there's my $2000 TEAC NT-505 streamer, which is probably my best sounding component, a very "analog" sounding digital device.  However, it doesn't quite have the "magic" that's in the grooves of some of the better pressings I own.

In short, $700 for a turntable all in probably isn't going to rival a good CD player, although it might sound as good or better than a $700 CD player.

If you start with that $600 platform and are willing to chip away at upgrading it, then you can achieve great results.  Of course you could just spend more and start with a better table and get similar results.  It's been a lot of fun for me to tweak away on the Technics and take it to a point where it rivals a much more expensive table, but that's not for everyone. 

Most of the budget belt drive turntables are not going to respond to upgrades as well as the SL1200 MK2, due mainly to it's solid build and isolation.  If you don't start out with a good foundation, you're wasting money on upgrades.

Imagine no limits in money and imagine 2 scales beside each other...One with a series if digital tech in price ascending order, and another one with TT in ascending order  of price and tech also....

Which one is the better someone will ask?

It depend of wich one we pick in the 2 scales of ascending order of price and technology to cdompare to...

Those who know the ultimate asnwer are not here on this thread and if they are they are single individual, able to afford the costly test, and nobody will trust them anyway for the result except if listening by himself...

 :)

The fact that this discussion is ongoing for such a long time means that actually the outcome it is not so obvious. :)

In my experience, a $700 turntable, if well sorted, or well set up, will equal or out perform, the best that digital can do or has done so far. 

So I gather you have the experience of listening to the best digital DACs in your home setup...  Wow. I am just curious what was the very best digital transport/DAC you have auditioned in your own setup? 

Buying a TT today is justified either as a lifestyle choice (should I squeeze "hipster" somewhere here?) or by a large collection of good old analogue vinyl that you already own. And by analogue vinyl I mean albums that were recorded and produced properly i.e. in analogue domain. An original or a truly good pressing often may cost you an arm and a leg. Now, if you are going to collect recent shiny issues to play on your new TT, just forget about outperforming a good digital source. Simply because this "analogue" record is a conversion of a digital studio recording. The proverbial "human hearing" here is nothing but a myth: you are listening to a digital file in a form of a vinyl. Also a TT is a major money pit, buying it is just a beginning, and for most the very nature of a TT will lead to tinkering and upgrades. On the other hand DACs have progressed tremendously in the last 5-6 years. I had several DACs in the last 20 years - Trivista, Reimyo, Naim and some other names I don’t even remember. Now I have Innuos ZEN mk3 + Aqua La Voce S3 as my main source and this modern R2R ladder DAC just trounced everything I had before and made me completely forget about a TT. It doesn’t have a trace of digital nasties that plagued older DACs. And it is modular, so it can be upgraded in the future. The only downside it is not cheap. But the difference between a £1000 DAC and a £3500 DAC is huge in terms of "human hearing". And a good proper TT setup can easily cost you even more. I expect DACs and digital file sources to progress even more in the next years, whereas with a TT you are stuck. The only way to progress here is to pay insane money for top cartridges etc.

So much of music is subjective as far as the individual listener is concerned.  A young listener who has not yet ruined his/her hearing will hear music differently than an old listener like myself who has hearing aids.  I do have memory, however.  I received a portable record player in 1955 and fell in love with music and vinyl.  In 1966 I built a Knight-Kit receiver and with speakers and turntable my music sounded wonderful. Then while serving in Vietnam I acquired some great equipment and my music sounded even better. But vinyl was subject to clicks and scratches and when CDs came out in the early '80s I grabbed one and relegated my turntable to the attic.  About 5 years ago I bought a new turntable (actually I bought two new ones and two vintage ones--I couldn't help myself) and I began cleaning my remaining vinyl records and picking up other used ones which I cleaned.  I had an old vinyl copy of a Bad Finger record which I had loved.  When I bought a CD of it some years later I wondered what I had liked so much about it.  So I put my clean Bad Finger vinyl on and played it and was astonished.  I again loved the sound of that recording.  I can no longer hear well enough to spend a large sum on either a CD player or a turntable but I certainly prefer the sound of vinyl that I hear. I would love to have a really nice CD player but I will likely get by with my old Denon.  I also stream through my Sonos to my good ten year old Marantz receiver and my good speakers.  Each person needs to consider what their hearing capability is and what their listening environment is in addition to budget before making decisions about what is best for them and that is not necessarily what will be best for anyone else. Just my opinion.

Rochard,

Not sure what maintenance costs you experienced with TT. My P3 is at least 10 years old and I've never taken it in for bearings, belts, etc.

Maybe I'm speaking too soon (fingers crossed)?

G

@larry5729... I assume you mean background white-noise or record surface noise. If I am correct then you have never heard a really good vinyl rig. My turntable and phono stage are dead quite and have an ultra low noise floor. Most visitors dont even realize I have a record playing until I point it out. 

I can't stand the noise level from vinyl.  i also like streaming better than a CD player because I can listen to hi res.

My friend thanks for your intrerest , i learned only one thing in the last 7 years by my stream of continuous experiments in listenings and with the 3 embeddings: The electronic component you owned are less important than controllings the 3 embeddings: the vibration-resonance mechanical controls, the electric grid of the house and room, the acoustical space with passive but also active methods....

Most people has never experienced that first hand and they think only of upgrading to satisfy their need without paying attention to the many defects linked to an improper controls of these 3 dimensions....

I dont want to repeat what is in my thread " miracles in audio" you can read it or go to my virtual page systems for details.... Dont be fooled by the photos of my systems, the sound is at his maximum potential S.Q..... :)

If you have questions i will anser them on my thread or in private....

cal91
@mahgister...By acoustical embeddings do you mean room treatment? If so, I’d be interested to know what you do. I feel like I should explore this before spending money to change components

CD player dude!! CDs blow away vinyl every time!!!

I am feeling some sellers remorse right now....last week I sold an early restoration by Chris Thornton of Artisan Fidelity my Thorens TD 160.

Plenty of fine albums out there from the 60’s and 70’s for under $10.
as far as outperform...I suppose if you are only looking for "speed" and clinical  results it will not benefit you.
Only commit to vinyl if you are all in to take a long and rewarding trip down Vinyl lane.
Take your time and enjoy the journey .

mtdining

... your brain misses the 80% of timing info that digital throws away.

Please explain what leads you to believe that digital discards timing information.

I have a Technics SL-1200 family turntable and I absolutely love it. But CDs still sound better for the same money invested in hardware. Okay clearly that’s debatable. What’s better, potato salad or coleslaw? I like them both, but the main reason I still have a turntable is a matter of what I can get in that format. Old records of obscure things that aren’t available streaming, and my existing collection of vinyl is what keeps my turntable connected to the "good system" in the house. If I were only streaming and wanted to start a new media collection that I could keep on site, I’d be going for CD - no question. The reason is simple. CDs today are where LPs were in the mid 90s - abundant and very cheap in the used market. And - added bonus - used CDs almost always sound exactly the same as new CDs!! That really isn’t true with vinyl. If this were 1994 I’d be telling you to get a turntable and take advantage of all of the wonderful records that sell for pennies, but those days are gone. As for absolute sound quality, again it’s not an apples to apples comparison. Vinyl has certain qualities that CDs do not, and vice versa. On paper, CD smokes vinyl. But that’s like saying lobster smokes Twinkies - not if you want something sweet it doesn’t.

How far up the food chain do you go for X$ in CD vs vinyl? In my opinion you get way closer to the top performance in CD than you do in vinyl. Because vinyl is a mechanical reproduction system (doesn’t sound as elegant when you put it that way, does it?) there’s almost no limit to what you could do to improve it, and that means cost. CD being and optical/electrical/logical system can only be pushed so far before there is no meaningful upgrade. I think you get very close to perfect, in terms of true sound quality, for much lower cost with CD. That was always been CD's fidelity advantage over vinyl - cost, not absolute quality.

To OP, 

There are many variables involved.  If you have a well mastered CD and compare it to a poorly mastered LP or the LP is very noisy, then CD can be way better sounding.  Vice-versa too.  

It really depends on your determination to source and procure well mastered versions of albums on LP.  Things like where and who pressed the records also comes into play.  You might get frustrated being a few new records only to find that they are damaged right out of the package and need to return and get replacements.  Or maybe you want to seek out the very best pressing or mastering of a particular favorite.  If this is your cup of tee, then you might want to get into the vinyl game. 

If so, I'd recommend getting something like a Project Debut Carbon turntable with an Ortofon 2M Red cartridge pre-installed for you.  From a reputable dealer that will accept returns.  This way you might find that it is not for you and you can either return or sell.  Either way, your initial investment is not that high...I think $500 or less.  Especially if you already have a phono input in your receiver or amp to try.  If not, you will also need to get an external phono-pre-amp (aka phonostage).  

Otherwise, you have a good DAC and I think it might be better to explore getting a streamer.  The Bluesound Node 2i is a great product for not a lot of money and can introduce you to the world of music streaming services such as Tidal and Qobuz.  This is the best way to explore new music!

It also depends on what you listen to.  If most of the music you like is newer and mastered on digital, then I think there is little benefit to getting a analogue vinyl front-end.  I find that albums recorded in the analogue domain such as Blue Note albums from the 50's and 60's and remastered by Kevin Gray and pressed by RTI sound magical!  Much better than any digital files or CD.  However, Whitesnake (1987) sounds just as good (or bad LOL) on the CD as the LP.

Lastly, generally speaking a well mastered and pressed LP can be more enjoyable to listen to for most people.  After all we hear in analogue.  My experience is that a decent $400-500 turntable can sound great.  

If it has the right phono stage!

No DJ table, or direct drive table will match an “audiophile”turntable designed in the post mass market vinyl era. I would consider the Clearaudio Concept the most affordable destination turntable. The closest thing to a Concept under $1k, would be a Project X1.
This will sound more natural than digital in some ways. Pretty much anyone can hear the difference and is drawn to vinyl IF they are not focused on low level noise, pops, etc.
The above turntables are quieter than you would expect.
i get to listen to the best DAC in the world - the DCS Vivaldi, anytime I want at work. Even that can’t quite match a good vinyl rig for naturalness - your brain misses the 80% of timing info that digital throws away.

The easiest way for you to resolve this issue is to A-B the same recording on a turntable and in a CD player. I did this years ago, not only for myself but for many friends and family members.   Everyone was amazed as to how much better vinyl sounded than CD.  The 
CD sounded as though it was muffled compared to the vinyl. I urge you to conduct this simple but revealing test. 

Maybe,

But in the long run, do you want to pay for the maintenance of a turntable.
Turntables are great from the retailers point-of-view. Because they wear out. Which means they have a new customer and additional cash flow over time from this sale.
New belts, new cartridges, bearings replaced in the tonearms, possible motor issues and then the suspensions and occasional tuning to make sure it is up to specs. Plus, all the accessories to upgrade and maintain your TT and record collection. (More so with belt drive TT than direct drive TT)

If your buying a TT, make sure it is new and not used. A used TT is like buying a 20 year old BMW and thinking it will perform just like a new car. 

When a Paul McGowan of PS audio states that DSD audio sounds better than vinyl, I think you can see where the future of audio is going.

Finding LP's at great prices is fun, that's why I still have my TT and to listen to my collection of Lp's. With the prices of used CD's declining, maybe the bargains will be this format for awhile. 

Yes.

Mission 775S turntable, $100-200
Grace G707 tonearm, $100-150

Phonostage, $250-1500
Cartridge, $100-10,000

Any of that, in good condition, set up well, will outperform CD

MAYBE depends on the cd player if it is an Esoteric K03XS then yes.

@dsper

When you compare DAC and hi-fi turntable the music itself is important, on vinyl you must have original pressing of the well recorded albums from the analog era (recorded and mastered in analog). Those albums are pure magic, if your system is not capable to reproduce music from those albums it is your system fail, not the LP. 

When you're listening to modern music (digital files) it is recorded digitally and mastered digitally, often compressed. In this situation you can hear exactly what's on the master. 

To do so with analog you need a Master Tape or Direct Cut record. 
Or very well recorded and pressed LPs (not re-issues). 

For vinyl you need a decent phono stage in your analog chain. 

@guy-incognito

Thank you. You have convinced me that I need to look into it. I was in an audio shop in Richmond, VA where the manager was talking about streaming. I'll see what they recommend. I understand that some services have better SQ than others. Any suggestions?

@geof
If that's the case then maybe I could find the recording of Menuhin and Oistrack playing Bach's Concerto for Two Violins. There's a Youtube video but I've never been able to find the CD.

There is NO question streaming is the way to go to explore new music. The access to new (even old) recordings is amazing. Some streaming services are better than others. But hands down, for  variety and convenience, streaming cannot be beat. 

@cal91... streaming in like the internet jukebox at the bar. You can control it from your phone and you never have to get up to swap your cd or lp. You have hundreds of cds... I have Tidal and Qobuz which each have around 50 million tracks (yes there is overlap in the catalogs). You can play entire albums front to back or you can pick through and just play the songs you want. You dont even have to skip through the unwanted tracks unless you prefer to do it that way. You can just queue up the tracks you want to hear if you would rather. If at the end of the night you were particularly fond of your listening session, you can save the whole list and revisit it again later at the push of one button. You can listen to new albums before you buy the physical copy to see if you like them.  You can revisit old albums you don't own and you can explore deeper into an artists discography. 

I am a vinyl guy first and have much more money invested in my vinyl rig. But I also have a streamer and a DAC to fill in my collection. I can't imagine not having both. My Dad is about your age and after a year of saying pretty much the same things as you I finally got him to buy a streamer... He loves it. He is discovering new music which has led to more vinyl purchases. We send eachother recommendations on newly discovered albums. He will never go back. 

You really are missing out by not even knowing what you are missing (paraphrase of what my Dad said after the fact). Best of luck.

@roberjerman     

Good to hear there’s other audiophile/guitar collectors. Pre CBS Fender and same era Gibson too?

Steve.

FWIW,

I have been running a Perfect Wave Transport and Theta Pro Basic III DAC. Took me quite a while to get the sound I liked.

I had not been playing vinyl for probably two or three years.

Anyway, I got my Technics LS1200Mk5  turntable and Audio Technica150 MLX cartridge set up and was surprised to the point of shock.

The DAC combo blew away the vinyl. The Technics seemed lifeless and with less detail. An Ortofon Pro S40 cartridge was even worse. It did not matter whether I played an old album or a new 180 gram record.

I was always been in the Technics camp but this was an eye opener for me.

Thanks for listening,

Dsper

@chakster 

People have tried to convince me to try streaming. Again, the convenience issue comes up. I don't know how it works. Do you access a complete album and have the ability to skip songs you might not care for, or do you seek particular songs? I have hundreds of CDs that I can see, hold, and make a choice. I can skip songs without having to get up. I know this betrays my ignorance of streaming, but unless someone can explain to me how streaming is as convenient as CDs I see no reason to make a change. If someone can explain why, at 66 years of age with a bad knee I should make the change to streaming, please do it. I'll be looking for advice on streamers. I'm not married to my CDs.