Why HiFi Gear Measurements Are Misleading (yes ASR talking to you…)

andy2

1,504 posts

03-08-2023 at 12:21pm

Looks like Amir is gone?

I doubt it. Wait for the next commercial blitzkrieg here shortly.

Besides, even if he is gone, it’s OK. Cin Dyment (aka The Speaker Dude nowadays) can handle the entire forum single handedly

 

 

I haven’t seen any recent videos on the ASR site.

ozzy

@nyev 

I know the argument remains unresolved - are these things in my mind, or is it that science has not yet figured out how to measure certain things that we perceive in audio?

We can't measure what you perceive.  You listen to a track that brings you joy.  We can't measure joy.  What we can measure is the sound coming out of your audio gear.  That is the sound that is "heard."  What is perceived includes many other variables that go beyond sound. I enjoy watching my Reel to Reel play music.  It brings me joy.  But that has nothing to do with the sound.  The sound is excellent but I hear background noise which is not so nice -- something we absolutely measure.

Put more strongly, you have to identify what is sound and only sound in your perception.  You can't look at something, and give an opinion because your knowledge of what you are seeing pollutes your perception.  A person not likely horns will dislike any horn speaker.  Put them in a blind test though, and they won't bring such preconception to the party.  To wit, I was shocked how good these JBL horn speakers sounded in double blind tests at Harman that I took:

So bottom line, bring us an experiment where only the sound is evaluated and shown to not be random outcome and I will show you a measurement for it.  The moment you include other things, we can't measure it due to no fault of science, measurements or engineering.

And oh, there is no science being developed to determine what you state.  The science is completely settled that only results of controlled audio tests matter. where only your ear is involved.  All else is not worth even looking at.

@amir_asr , I thought you had given up on the discussion and I would not at all have blamed you if you had! Thank you for responding. Below are three examples where I experienced subjective differences in sound and I genuinely wonder if you would be able to measure the differences I was perceiving. If your conclusion is that no, these perceptions are due to mental bias, that will not offend me one bit. I will disagree with you if that is the case, but I won’t be offended or defensive! I would also ask, how can you be sure you are measuring the right things, the right way, to explain the differences I am perceiving? That question IS rhetorical, as I would argue that no one can answer that question conclusively.  I don’t expect to convince you and I don’t expect to be convinced, but I’m interested in a constructive dialogue simply to explore perspectives differing from my own.

 

Just to give one recent example to relate to my prior post: Last year I bought a second USB cable (Audioquest Diamond) while I had the original for a few years. The new one sounded inferior. To the degree that I wondered if there was a design change or changes to production. But after a few hundred hours, I could no longer tell them apart. Yet existence of burn-in is endlessly debated.

Another recent example is what I found with length of USB cables, where a Nordost Valhalla 2 2m cable sounded superior to the equivalent 1m cable. Intuitively I would have expected the 1m cable to sound better, as I had not at that time read the theories, to my knowledge unproven, that USB cables should be longer than 1.5m to accommodate “reflections”.

And I don’t know if this one is proven or if people just have theories grounded in science, but the whole anti-vibration/isolation tweaks that really do make a surprising difference. I introduced a friend who is newly into HiFi to Herbie’s Tenderfeet, and he promptly cut up some yoga mats to replicate the benefits himself. He tells me it worked! It’s easy to identify whether the feet were added or removed, at the transition points.

I wonder, would @amir_asr be able to measure the differences I’m hearing, in each of these example cases? Not a rhetorical question; I’m genuinely curious. If the answer is no however, I think the assumption might be that it’s all in my mind. Just like what the researchers said about those hearing meteors, 25 years ago, because they were not measuring the right things or applying the right science to explain our perceptions.

I should also mention I had the exact same experience as with thenNordost USB example, testing a .7m Audioquest Diamond against a 1.5m version of the same cable.

@andy2 

That is true in theory but I don’t think Amir even doing that. But jitter is difficult to test in frequency domain, just to name a few.  There are more.

We don't "measure" jitter in time or frequency domain.  Jitter modulates the primary tone that we can play.  We perform a spectrum analysis of that tone and jitter sidebands jump right out:

See those sidebands at whopping -130 dB.  We can easily measure them by simply sampling the analog output of the DAC.  No need to probe inside which is problematic anyway as the DAC chip likely has jitter reduction.

As a major bonus, we can apply psychoacoustics analysis to the jitter spectrum and determine audibility as you see noted on the graph.

The other thing is that jitter is not one number as is often talked about.  Above you see multiple jitter sources at different frequencies and levels.  This makes FFT analysis far superior to any time domain jitter measurement that spites out either a number or even a distribution.

FYI, my audio analyzer has a time domain jitter meter but it is nowhere near as good as the above spectrum and at any rate, only works on digital sources, not analog.

@nyev 

Below are three examples where I experienced subjective differences in sound and I genuinely wonder if you would be able to measure the differences I was perceiving.

That would be jumping a step.  As I explained, first it has to be established that what you are perceiving is sound and only sound.  To do that, you need to run those tests blind and repeat 10 times and see if at least 8 out of 10 times you can tell which cable is which.  Bring that to me and I will guarantee you that I can measure that effect.  

I just reviewed three JPS Labs cables (XLR, USB and Power).  I performed listening tests on all three.  All sounded different than my generic cables.  Measurements did not show any evidence of those differences.  Why?  Because my testing was unreliable, ad-hoc subjective tests.  These tests produce all kinds of outcome for me as they do for you.  The problem as I keep saying is that our perception is so variable that it doesn't lend to reliable conclusions of fidelity differences until we put in some controls.

@amir_asr , I get your point.  I’ve done many blind tests in the past but unfortunately I didn’t feel the need to conduct them in these instances when I had the relevant gear.  I now wish I had!

I know this is not a “control”, but as I mentioned in the USB cable example, I would have expected, intuitively, for the shorter cable to sound better than the longer cable.  That was my bias going in.  I was surprised to find the opposite.  
 

I know, not a controlled test!  But I think it’s still relevant.

@amir_asr, as an aside I will be buying a Tambaqui DAC and I have to admit it’s a comfort to see that you found it to measure well.

But if I end up not liking it, I will totally blame you for a misfire purchase.  Just kidding :)

For the record, I don’t equate the positive measurements you found to an expectation that I will enjoy its sound, in my system, in my room, with my ears, and with my brain….  How great it would be if it were that easy - I truly wish it was!

 

For the record, I don’t equate the positive measurements you found to an expectation that I will enjoy its sound, in my system, in my room, with my ears, and with my brain….  How great it would be if it were that easy - I truly wish it was!

Why bother measuring things if it doesnt equate with sound quality?

“Why bother measuring things if it doesnt equate with sound quality?”

@kenjit , out of interest I guess? It’s interesting to consider how a component performs, physically, in the real world, independently from human perception which is more important, IMO.

Not sure if I may have overstated my position earlier but I may have. I can admit I believe measured performance has an impact on how I perceive sound quantity. But my main point is I don’t believe it’s a guarantee of how I will perceive sound quality, because I don’t believe we have measurements that comprehensively predict this.  Amir takes the position that yes, we DO have all of those measurements.  And my question is, how can we know that when we don’t know what we don’t know?  My question is ridiculous on its own, as some have pointed out.  I wouldn’t go around questioning everything we know on that basis.  But my own subjective experiences in HiFi have given me enough of a glimpse to firmly believe that there is more that we don’t know.  That we don’t know how to accurately predict how we will each, individually respond to a component with a particular set of measured performance metrics.

To use the car analogy from above, horsepower and torque are valuable measurements but don’t guarantee one will enjoy driving the car.

I’m in favour of JA’s approach to measurements in Stereophile, where subjective listening is the focus. But it’s fantastic that the measurements are there just to see if SOME correlation with the subjective experience can be gleaned. Why? I find it interesting.

People are perfectly free to disagree with me!  It does not bother me one bit that ASR exists and I’m happy if they keep banging the objectivity drum.  Some say it unfairly harms certain brands but the subjective review sites can balance this.  Makes our hobby all the more vibrant, provided we can keep the personal attacks out of the equation.

 

 

But my own subjective experiences in HiFi have given me enough of a glimpse to firmly believe that there is more that we don’t know.

Arent you just contradicting yourself? You just said we dont know what we dont know. So perhaps we have all possible measurements or perhaps we dont. You cant then claim that your subjective experience gives you a firm belief that theres more that we are not able to measure. Your subjective experience might also just be imagined. Perhaps that $5000 cable is useless after all?

The other thing is that jitter is not one number as is often talked about. Above you see multiple jitter sources at different frequencies and levels. This makes FFT analysis far superior to any time domain jitter measurement that spites out either a number or even a distribution.

That is true. Jitter could be random, periodic, ISI, DCD and I am sure there are more. The tone in your example measure periodic jitter which can be done in time domain as well. For a pure sinewave, you could use frequency domain, but with non-sinusoidal waveform (which is more akin to music), it’s better to use time domain.

There are transient events that can only be capture in time domain such as overshoot or undershoot or ringing or more .,.. It is fine if you only use frequency domain but it won’t be a complete test.

 

There are transient events that can only be capture in time domain such as overshoot or undershoot or ringing or more .,.. It is fine if you only use frequency domain but it won’t be a complete test.

 

Can you give examples of these transient non periodic events that would occur during playback?

 

but with non-sinusoidal waveform (which is more akin to music), it’s better to use time domain.

 

We use non sinusoidal waveforms all the time, though they may be made up of a multitude of sine waves. I already talked about transient testing.

@kenjit , fair point. But I don’t think we can treat all subjective experiences equally. We can be more certain of some subjective experiences than others. If I were to see a person in front of me I wouldn’t question if that person was there (an extreme example). In my example above, there is little chance I was imagining the longer USB cable sounding better than the shorter one when I was biased to thinking the opposite. 25 years ago, I also knew that when I heard the meteors sizzling, I knew that I really heard them. Even though when I immediately checked the internet, all researchers had said this was in my head. I’ve learned when to trust my senses. And also, just as importantly, when not to!

OK, I'll bite -- who or what is ASR and why should I care?

In my example above, there is little chance I was imagining the longer USB cable sounding better than the shorter one when I was biased to thinking the opposite.

 

Unless your bias against the longer one caused you to listen with more focus that allowed you to hear detail that you missed before?  You cannot say with complete confidence that that was not the case.

I did not note what differences you perceived between the longer and shorter cable. I am not saying this is the case for your test, but it is common that the differences reported between two components are simply impossible with the change that was made. I do understand your point with the meteor, often there are unintended consequences, we see that in product design all the time. But there are some fundamental facts of how things work that cannot be ignored either.

 

@assetmgrsc

 

OK, I’ll bite -- who or what is ASR and why should I care?

 

ASR = Audio Science Review:

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php

It’s a forum that looks to more objective or reliable ways of evaluating audio gear, essentially taking the lessons from science as to the importance of controlling for variables, seeking more reliable results, etc.

Basically, if an audio manufacturer makes some claims for their product, the ASR approach is to not simply rely on the subjective anecdotes of audiophiles, but to look to measurements first of all to see if they claims are plausible or justified, and also when possible to control for sighted bias for listening tests (blind testing).

The site founder, Amir, is highly technically qualified and knowledgeable, owns some of the best measurement tools you can get, and has produced a huge number of gear reviews - speakers, amps, dacs, phono stages, cables, you name it. ASR has made huge waves in the audiophile community and Amir’s video reviews are filled with appreciative comments for the knowledge and gear evluation he is putting out.

Why should you care?

Well, depends on what you care about. How much do you care whether a claim about a piece of gear is true or not? If you are in the "if I think I (or someone else) hears a difference, that’s all I need" camp, then ASR won’t be for you.

But if you care more deeply about what is really going on with audio gear, to understand it, and use that knowledge to make decisions, then it can be very helpful.

For instance Amir has reviewed expensive cables (USB for instance) from Nordost and other companies, and shown they don’t improve the signal at all, certainly not in any audible way, over readily available cheaper cables. It would be up to you what you do with such information. Some audiophiles will always stick with "what I think I hear" and discard such evaluations. Others (like myself) will use this information to learn what to worry about or not in audio, and I’ll prefer to put my money to gear that is more likely to improve the sound.

 

 

@prof Thanks for your answer, sane, sensible and complete enough.

@amir_asr   You sir, have more patience than I do, bless you.

to all you guys believing in burn in requirements of more than that required to reach a stable operating temperature:  How do you know that the most variable element in your listening is YOU and YOU might just be the element that has "improved" it's hearing/interpretation of the music???

One last comment for me:  I have clearly heard differences in cables, but they always seem to correlate with cable diameter and quality terminations, beyond that 😁

certainly not in any audible way

That statement in itself is subjective.  I don't think ASR has any data on whether something is within or beyond our hearing threshold.  The tests they produce cannot be used to say whether something sounds warm, bright, musical, thin, analytical, has a wide/narrow soundstage ... and so much more.  At the end of the day, you just have to listen.

That statement in itself is subjective.

 

Of course it isn’t a subjective claim. It’s an objective empirical claim. It’s either true or false, and testable.

 

I don’t think ASR has any data on whether something is within or beyond our hearing threshold.

Then you aren’t familiar with ASR. Amir often references studied threshholds for human hearing (including as I recall, tests he was part of producing in developing codecs).

The tests they produce cannot be used to say whether something sounds warm, bright, musical, thin, analytical, has a wide/narrow soundstage ... and so much more.

1. Blind tests can determine if there is a detectable difference in any of those qualities between different gear.

2. I don’t mean this as an insult, but you seem to be projecting your own ignorance of what is known about the correlation of measurements and what we hear. We know plenty about what combination of harmonics create which timbres (how do you think synths have managed to mimic real instruments). Any good mixer understands which frequency changes will influence most of the qualities you mention:

 

I use EQ all the time to alter warmth, body, brightness, thinness, etc.

So if you know enough about frequency response, you can predict to a certain degree how various deviations from neutral will sound (and Amir provides among the best measurements you can get, including for speakers).

You CAN predict what you won’t hear via many measurements. And when it comes to complex outputs like speakers, it may be difficult to totally predict how you will hear something from the measurements, but that is different from the outright denial of the correlation of measurements to sonic character that you seem to be arguing.

 

@thespeakerdude 

But there are some fundamental facts of how things work that cannot be ignored either.

Those things are called "reality". If you want to be a part of "reality" please post your system and pics online, otherwise you have 0 facts, fundamental or otherwise.

@prof  Amir measures to many pieces of audio gear to really do a good job, and when a mistake comes to light he corrects it, on what page 10 when he could easily put it in the OP.

The Border Patrol dac does not measure well, but it sure sounds good! I’ll take measurements with a grain of salt.

Those things are called "reality". If you want to be a part of "reality" please post your system and pics online, otherwise you have 0 facts, fundamental or otherwise.

Whatever gear thespeakerdude happens to own has no bearing on whether his statements are true or not.

 

invalid,

Amir doesn't do a perfect job.  He's the first one to point out that, far from running a "cult", his reviews are often put under heavy scrutiny - and criticism where warranted - by ASR members.

 

You are such a kiss ass. Disgusting 

@kota1  you posted, in a single topic, no less than 6 links to videos and articles that were either very questionable in content, or outright grossly wrong.  I would appreciate if you stopped your incessant inane attempts to discredit me and worry more about your own credibility.

 

@thespeakerdude

You argue to much. Please post your system and pics of your room in the virtual system and we can discuss. You have 0 proof of any of your claims, it is time to stop telling everyone what to.

My "credibility" is posted in my virtual system, why not get some of your own?

HiFi measurements ARE misleading (or bogus) for many reasons. Every website that measures just for measurements sake (ASR, Audioholics, Golden Sound) needs traffic to generate income. They measure things that don’t matter and talk as if they do (SNR beyond human hearing). Then they don’t measure what DOES matter because they are pretenders ( the room they measure/ listen in impacts the sound of what they measure. What is the FR curve of it? Do they even care?)

Doltish amateurs looking to condemn legitimate companies with bogus measurements to generate click bait. Horrible miscreants as some here have noted. When legit measurements don’t support their radical click bait they go into attack mode and blame the messenger.

"Your posts indicate you really don’t know what you are talking about. At all."

Of course when you reject, dismiss, and deny not only a concept, idea, or proposal but an entire person, his thoughts, his ideas, his experiences, his contributions to this site, and attempt to reduce it to the trivial. the insigniificant, the unworthy, you reveal your argument, intent, and purpose to be false.

Some of the contributers here seem to tremble, quiver, or falter in the presence of facts and it is a sad sight to behold.

I think the OP is gaslighting. He starts with a long description about a meteor event 25 years ago showing science can be wrong. So? Have doctors been wrong in the past too?  Does that mean never to trust science or doctors again?

Then the OP states that Amir would have been wrong about that too. That’s a foul call.

“I’m not trying to start an argument” is patently dishonest. Just look at the fallout that followed. There are many knowledgeable and helpful people here. I choose to respect their input over those who are only looking to sow discord and confusion.

@thyname 

Besides, even if he is gone, it’s OK. Cin Dyment (aka The Speaker Dude nowadays) can handle the entire forum single handedly

No system, no speakers, no credibility, that guy just argues.

One more time:

kota1,

Someone's high end acquisitions don't give any more credibility in terms of making technical claims about audio. Someone could own Magico M9 speakers and still be clueless about how audio works.  Also, there is no high end brand of gear that protects someone against the same bias effects that would occur for any other audio gear.

For instance, if you understood how the Klippel Analyzer System that Amir uses worked, you wouldn’t be raising the red herring of measuring the room. The whole point of that analyzer is to REMOVE the influences of the room to gain an accurate measurement of the on and off axis behaviour of the speakers! It's why it's a revolution - you don't need an anechoic chamber to get these measurements!  And from that, those measurements help predict how a speaker might perform in various rooms e.g. if a speaker sends a lot of ragged sound off-axis and you put it in a smaller room especially you are likely to get that mixed in the sound with reflections and it will sound poorer than one with even off axis behaviour...etc. Some speakers will be more finicky than others, and will also be less amenable to EQ or room correction fixes than others. ASR is literally following the best science we have on this!

Measurements can only tell so much about the piece of equipment. At the end of the day you have to listen.

Measurements cannot tell if something sounds warm, bright, musical, organic, analytical, transparent, soundstage width/height/depth ... just to name a few.

prof

Someone’s high end acquisitions don’t give any more credibility in terms of making technical claims about audio.

That’s quite true.

... For instance, if you understood how the Klippel Analyzer System that Amir uses worked ...

Ahhhhh, but you make an exception for your favored shiny tool, for which I’m sure you’re willing to submit lengthy rationalization. Hey @prof, it’s clear you’re a smart guy. Do you not see your ill logic in this matter, or are you just funnin’ with us?

cleeds,

Do you not see your ill logic in this matter, or are you just funnin’ with us?

I presume you are "funnin' with me.

You couldn't possibly have so misunderstood the point of what I wrote so badly.

Think about it.

Anyone with enough money could purchase any speaker you want to name.  Does that make someone technically knowledgeable? 

Vs.

Someone who owns - and most important! - UNDERSTANDS how to use a Klippel Anlayzer.

And kota1 literally demonstrated the difference between owning hi-fi gear and having a technical understanding (of how ASR measures speakers and why).

“He starts with a long description about a meteor event 25 years ago showing science can be wrong. So? Have doctors been wrong in the past too? Does that mean never to trust science or doctors again?”

@tcotruvo , that wasn’t the point of my anecdote, to say science was wrong. In fact, science was not wrong in this case - nothing about science was incorrect! Rather, the opinions of researchers were wrong, in terms of explaining a specific phenomenon that people were reporting. If people reported a bunch of UFO sightings and researchers didn’t believe them, that would not be an example of science being wrong. My point is that I have also encountered subjective experiences in HiFi that personally, for me alone, make me believe that things I perceive may not be in the realm of what is typically or currently measured when assessing HiFi gear. Just as with the case where I heard the meteors. It does not invalidate or make the measurements of HiFi equipment incorrect. This is a highly personal perspective that need not be adopted by anyone really, for all I care.

I’m not trying to change yours or anyone’s mind. I’m not even trying to claim that I’m right. Rather, I’m just sharing my perspective!  Amir, yourself and others are of course free to share yours.

@prof 

'Anyone with enough money could purchase any speaker you want to name.  Does that make someone technically knowledgeable? '

Vs.

'Someone who owns - and most important! - UNDERSTANDS how to use a Klippel Anlayzer.'

 

I have met many people who are 'technically knowledgeable' but have no clue how to set up a 'good' hi fi system and vice versa.We may argue what makes a 'good' system, but if you claim that you cant hear difference between usb cables (you have mentioned such case before,it was Nordost in question) than the whole point of discussing is pointless and that is fine with me.

But, I really, really cant understand what drives you, (or anybody else that shares your beleifs) in a attempt where you are trying to 'explain' to people, who have different perspective or experience, that they are 'wrong'?

I found that funny, but also very pretentious, none the less.Does any consumer needs 'Klippel Anlayzer' or blind test, or what ever else to determine what he actually hears?

Building a great hi fi system can be delicate endeavour, but imho you cant do it without lots of experience that you get by listening to very different types and pieces of gear, listening to very different systems and without some sense of hearing...and attending live acoustic concerts for esablishing some sort of  reference...

In the same time, Ralph Karsten, aka the Atmasphere states that everything we hear can be messured. I trust him, but he is constructor and for him those informationa are tools. I believe that other constructors are doing the same and yet, all their gear sounds differently...and than we have you, the ASR crowd, for whom, most of the gear sounds the same...which is great, but for you...do what you like, be happy and leave others to do the same... 

But, I really, really cant understand what drives you, (or anybody else that shares your beleifs) in a attempt where you are trying to ’explain’ to people, who have different perspective or experience, that they are ’wrong’?

That’s an observation that is spot on. I have observed it over and over again since the beginning of my involvement in the hobby some twenty years ago. The explanation is pretty simple, and can be tied to centuries/ millennia of human history: religion. Once one becomes converted to a religion, a believer, it does not stop there, they are heavily encouraged to become preachers, spread the newly acquired belief. That involves going different places, where the non-believers stay, in an attempt to convert them, make them believers. So that those “ignorants”pagans can see the Light too. Colonization, conquering, call it what you want. Thus the term “missionary”

 

alexatpos

...I really, really cant understand what drives you, (or anybody else that shares your beleifs) in a attempt where you are trying to ’explain’ to people, who have different perspective or experience, that they are ’wrong’? I found that funny, but also very pretentious, none the less.

As @thyname also notes, those who behave that way typically are consumed with belief ("religion") and faith, by definition, requires no proof. The rigid, fundamentalist dogma leaves no room for the infidels who refuse conversion.

As with religion, some of the fundamentalist proselytizers are soft-spoken, engaging, and even appear thoughtful. Some are harsh, brazen, and confrontational.

Occasionally, one will slip up and reveal his agenda, as in this thread:

I have no personal agenda, other than to call out over priced, under performing products when I see them. Audio is full of over priced products that don’t measure up to far cheaper alternatives.

See, he has no personal agenda, he just wants to be the savior.

Does any consumer needs ’Klippel Anlayzer’ or blind test, or what ever else to determine what he actually hears?

Absolutely yes, according the measurementalist’s faith doctrine. That’s why some component evaluations don’t even include listening. After all, listening is such a flawed exercise.

If you want to make this a faith and religion discussion and talk about proof one point of view will win every honest argument. @prof is attempting to bring a balanced view and he still gets attacked. Don’t try to make it appear like you are the voice of reason when you are not.

 

@tcotruvo I don’t agree with @nyev but I don’t think your depiction of him is fair. Human experience creates strong convictions. I had to do a lot of unlearning "by fire" 20 some off years ago. I had a lot of preconceived ideas based on my "experience". What someone said to me that stuck is I didn’t have experience, I had experiences. They are not the same. Because we experience something does not mean we are gaining experience. Listening to lots of different systems does not give you experience unless you understand what is different about those system and how that translates into how they sound, and even accepting that some things will make minimal or no sound change.

 

Measurements cannot tell if something sounds warm, bright, musical, organic, analytical, transparent, soundstage width/height/depth ... just to name a few.

 

This was written above. Measurements can tell you most of these things. To understand those measurements and make some conclusions or know how to achieve them takes experience and understanding how things work. Experience also tells us that your interpretation of how something may sound at least for tone is influenced by what you are already listening to as you will adapt to your current system. If you have a "warm" system and listen to another warm system it will sound normal to you. To someone else it may sound overly warm.

thespeakerdude

If you want to make this a faith and religion discussion and talk about proof one point of view will win every honest argument.

The fundamentalist measurementalists here have already made this into a matter of faith and religion, as others have noted, and you’re just piling on with a point of view (faith) that will "win" every time.

@prof is attempting to bring a balanced view and he still gets attacked.

I don’t see any attacks on @prof, although I’ve seen some from him that were deleted. In any event, attacks aren’t allowed under the rules here so there’s no need to play the victim card. Just flag the post for the moderators.

Yes, prof is a kind a nice Missionary. Those who use a carrot to preach and convert. You on the other hand Cin Dyment, not so much. Kind of the Sword type of Missionary 

In any event, attacks aren’t allowed under the rules here so there’s no need to play the victim card. Just flag the post for the moderators.

 

We are adults. This should not be needed.

thespeakerdude

We are adults.

Nonsense. It’s obvious that children post here and when their posts violate the rules, they should be deleted just as the adults are. If you claim to be the victim of attack, flag the post for the moderators. That’s why they’re here. Don’t use "victimization" as a basis for argument.

@thespeakerdude

Listening to lots of different systems does not give you experience

Yes it does, listening to lots of different systems does give you experience.

Don’t make this all about you, you want to pretend to have experience and you don’t even have a system. If I’m mistaken please post it and some pics OK? Otherwise go get some EXPERIENCE and try to listen to someone elses system.

@thespeakerdude Cin Dyment:

We are adults. This should not be needed.

How ironic. You play the victim here, holier than thou card, yet, you have violated the Audiogon rules at least 16-17 times by coming here over and over again with different usernames, after repeatedly being banned. Are you insane?

 

Here is a partial list of your previous Audiogon usernames:

 

thespeakerdude 

 

cindyment2

 

oddioboy

 

crymeanaudioriver

 

theaudiomaniac 

 

theaudioamp

 

deludedaudiophile

 

thynamesinnervoice

 

cindyment

 

snratio

 

yesiamjohn

 

sugabooger

 

dletch2

 

audio2design

 

dannad

 

roberttdid 

 

roberttcan 

 

heaudio123

 

audiozenology

 

atdavid