An ignorant audiophile or ASR believer is guilty of the same thing. They don't question.
Why HiFi Gear Measurements Are Misleading (yes ASR talking to you…)
About 25 years ago I was inside a large room with an A-frame ceiling and large skylights, during the Perseid Meteor Shower that happens every August. This one time was like no other, for two reasons: 1) There were large, red, fragmenting streaks multiple times a minute with illuminated smoke trails, and 2) I could hear them.
Yes, each meteor produced a sizzling sound, like the sound of a frying pan.
Amazed, I Googled this phenomena and found that many people reported hearing this same sizzling sound associated with meteors streaking across the sky. In response, scientists and astrophysicists said it was all in our heads. That, it was totally impossible. Why? Because of the distance between the meteor and the observer. Physics does not allow sound to travel fast enough to hear the sound at the same time that the meteor streaks across the sky. Case closed.
ASR would have agreed with this sound reasoning based in elementary science.
Fast forward a few decades. The scientists were wrong. Turns out, the sound was caused by radiation emitted by the meteors, traveling at the speed of light, and interacting with metallic objects near the observer, even if the observer is indoors. Producing a sizzling sound. This was actually recorded audibly by researchers along with the recording of the radiation. You can look this up easily and listen to the recordings.
Takeaway - trust your senses! Science doesn’t always measure the right things, in the right ways, to fully explain what we are sensing. Therefore your sensory input comes first. You can try to figure out the science later.
I’m not trying to start an argument or make people upset. Just sharing an experience that reinforces my personal way of thinking. Others of course are free to trust the science over their senses. I know this bothers some but I really couldn’t be bothered by that. The folks at ASR are smart people too.
Showing 19 responses by andy2
Why then SS amp always has a haze where as tube amps always has a transparent sound but we all know tube always have inferior frequency response vs. ss. In short you can't measure it.
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I don't think you explained anything. Tube always has inferior freq. response to SS amp and higher distortion but most people will favor tubes due to its more musical nature. Of course if a bad tube amp very high distortion you can tell, but most tube amps nowaday are pretty good. FET amp with its being a square I vs. V curve sounds more tube like but its weakness is that it is less transparent vs. Bipolar and not as dynamic. Here is the thing. The freq. response curve and distortion will only tell you so much. How can measurement tell you if it is a FET amp or Bipolar amp? But a quick listening will tell you the difference between a FET vs. Bipolar. FET amp has gotten much better now, but in the old day it was very "hazy" vs. Bipolar. A lot of amp now uses FET as an input stage and Bipolar at the output stage. Just like using tube as input stage then SS as the output.
Also if you look at a speaker freq. response and distortion, it is an order of magnitude (or even higher) higher than anything audio chain (amp, preamp), so measurement would tell you that it will dominate anything in the upstream components, it is not. You can hear the difference with different amp or preamp. |
That is because a good tube amp will cost a lot more money compared to a SS amp. To get the same performance you need to spend quite a bit more. If money is not an issue, most people would go with tube.
The "haze" is there. In the old day it is very apparent in SS amp, but now SS has gotten a lot better so you don't notice it as much but a listen vs. a good tube amp will reveal it. FET amp tends to be guilty of this more so than Bipolar. Look if SS is so perfect than nobody would use tubes. But SS has its flaws but people will ignore it since it can output a lot more wattage vs. tubes.
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Amir has claimed that he personally listened to "200" pieces of equipment per years. That is around 366/200 or 1.5 days per equipment. I mean come on who in the world can take you seriously if you only spend such a short time evaluating an equipment. In comparison, people at Stereophile spend weeks on an particular equipment before they publish the review.
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https://www.theaudiobeat.com/visits/shunyata_visit_interview.htm (This link comes from a discussion here at Audiogon). I think Amir can learn a thing or two from the link above. It actually measures transient affect of power cable. I think Amir mostly measure frequency response which is steady state. A lot of thing happens in transient. |
You could convert the phase noise from say a 1kHz tone to jitter in time domain, but jitter measurement is easier to measure in time domain. Measuring phase noise will need a fairly expensive piece of equipment to do it right, but a more affordable real time scope can do the job better. Also to measure phase noise you need a pure sine wave. But in time domain, you could do it using a square wave or some transient waveform, which is more akin to real music. |
That is true. Jitter could be random, periodic, ISI, DCD and I am sure there are more. The tone in your example measure periodic jitter which can be done in time domain as well. For a pure sinewave, you could use frequency domain, but with non-sinusoidal waveform (which is more akin to music), it’s better to use time domain. There are transient events that can only be capture in time domain such as overshoot or undershoot or ringing or more .,.. It is fine if you only use frequency domain but it won’t be a complete test.
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That statement in itself is subjective. I don't think ASR has any data on whether something is within or beyond our hearing threshold. The tests they produce cannot be used to say whether something sounds warm, bright, musical, thin, analytical, has a wide/narrow soundstage ... and so much more. At the end of the day, you just have to listen. |