Why HiFi Gear Measurements Are Misleading (yes ASR talking to you…)

Well, I am very curious to hear any system that was assembled through blind testing of its individual components....

@amir_asr Regarding system assembled on blind test methodology...

You do not have to go so far, you can simply set up system, based on components that you recommend and publish it. It should not be difficult to replicate it and to hear first hand what (for you) represents the ’good’ sound.

I agree that lots of hi fi gear is overpriced and many simply does not sound good, but its the same thing with various different products, cars or ’wonder’ diet pills, or whatever else. But, that is common knowledge and everyone is trying to find the best value for its money, or his needs. Even among people from the same camp, aka the ’subjectivists’ it is often very hard to find consensus for many things. Building a great sounding system is a sort of an art form,put ’wrong’ cable on a ’wrong’ place and its ’arrivederci’ Roma (sound)

In the same time and please dont take this personally, I am surprised that there are people pretentious enough, who are trying to convince others that their choices are the ’right ones’. But, than, why stop only on hi fi? I am sure that there are more interesting challanges, or more noble ones?

As for your ’camp’, the prevalent atmosphere on Asr forum scares me. Or amese me, but not in a nice way. Owning tubes, vinyl, cables, or anything ’expensive’ is potential health hazard if one finds himself surrounded by that bunch. What I really do not undersatnd is why so many people refuse to trust their ears and why so many people need dogmatic ’guidance’ ?

But, silly me. Everything that is happening in our world, on much larger and ominous scale shows us how the mass psychology works. Pity that even a simple hobby, idiosyncratic as it might be, can not be spared of such folies

@amir_asr wrote and I quote  'So please don't pull that stunt and debating tactic at me.  The reality is that you are bothered by what we do so you want it stopped'

Dear Sir,

I was just beeing polite and answer to your comment on my previous post. I do not see any subject that we might debate over (cars included) and certainly nothing bothers me about your hobby. Its mystery to me if and why anybody is? 

But, as you have mentioned cars and audio, you have missed the crucial point. Performance of cars can be messured, bot not the feeling of driving one. Same with audio, despite all marketing or messured perfromances, the feeling or recreation of some percived musical event is something that is happening inside our heads. For that reason there are so many different visions of sound and that is why we have Franco Serblin and Magico, set tubes and monster ss, etc

Now, I do not believe that you have not realised that before, its just something inside you that makes you want spread your black and white vision. Nothing wrong with that either, but  just dont stop with audio. You could do so much more. I urge you to reconsider possibility to expand your field of work. There is a whole world of windmills out there. You are perhaps suffering from illusion of your own 'grandezza', but without it you would not even started doing what you do. So, go ahead, noble  ingenioso hidalgo, the world needs salvation

@prof 

'Anyone with enough money could purchase any speaker you want to name.  Does that make someone technically knowledgeable? '

Vs.

'Someone who owns - and most important! - UNDERSTANDS how to use a Klippel Anlayzer.'

I have met many people who are 'technically knowledgeable' but have no clue how to set up a 'good' hi fi system and vice versa.We may argue what makes a 'good' system, but if you claim that you cant hear difference between usb cables (you have mentioned such case before,it was Nordost in question) than the whole point of discussing is pointless and that is fine with me.

But, I really, really cant understand what drives you, (or anybody else that shares your beleifs) in a attempt where you are trying to 'explain' to people, who have different perspective or experience, that they are 'wrong'?

I found that funny, but also very pretentious, none the less.Does any consumer needs 'Klippel Anlayzer' or blind test, or what ever else to determine what he actually hears?

Building a great hi fi system can be delicate endeavour, but imho you cant do it without lots of experience that you get by listening to very different types and pieces of gear, listening to very different systems and without some sense of hearing...and attending live acoustic concerts for esablishing some sort of  reference...

In the same time, Ralph Karsten, aka the Atmasphere states that everything we hear can be messured. I trust him, but he is constructor and for him those informationa are tools. I believe that other constructors are doing the same and yet, all their gear sounds differently...and than we have you, the ASR crowd, for whom, most of the gear sounds the same...which is great, but for you...do what you like, be happy and leave others to do the same... 

@prof If you say (as loud as you can) that you do not hear difference between cables, I would suggest you that you try two very different ones, lets say Cardas and Nordost. After that, if you still cant hear no difference, I would call you a lucky guy and would say that you have just saved lots of money.

The ’problem’ with your perspective and the way you communicate (you in general sense,its not personal ) is that you are not doing the same with people who claim that they hear the difference. You demand ’proof’ or either offer ’explanations’ why this person perception cant be trusted. Why would we than read about ’anylizers’, blind tests,psychoacoustics, mass psychology, etc, all in favour to your biased perspective?

Now, if that is not ’snobbery’ than its plain rude and ill mannerd behaviour.

As for the Asr crowd, the prevalent notion there is same towards cables (no differences) tubes (they ’distort’ so cant be good), vinyl (cheap digital is way better) dacs (they all sound the same if the specs are ’right’) and so on... and anything that costs more than few hundred bucks is a scam...

Now, dont get me wrong. We are all aware that audio gear has obscene prices and that lots of it is simply not sounding very good and that there is lots of marketing bs. and that there are lots of people who are caring more about the brand or the price than about performance...but they (ASR folks) are going into extreme...and thats fine, for them, or anyone who shares such perspective...but try to write there that  you hear the difference between cables or that you have all tubed system and than tell me who is hostile or with whom you cant have discussion in a civil way?

Imho, this not the argument beetween two different types of opinion, but between two very different types of behaviour

@prof , as nice as I can say, please read my previous post again. I have no problems what so ever if you claim that you do not hear something or if your perception is different than mine (if you feel that something does not sound the way I hear it, or if you do not like it)

For that reason we have very different sounding gear and very different sounding systems. Some we like, some other we dont.If we all would ’believe’ that what others say or like to be ’right’ than we all would have the same systems and that is obvioulsly not the case. After all, even the people who ’believe’ that they can ’hear’ everything that you are suspicious about, change their gear or general sound of their systems from time to time, for various reasons. Sometimes because their perception or attitude toward sound reprouduction has been changed, again, for various reasons.

When doing so, its probably because they heard something or some piece of gear that changed their previous perspective.

Now, who am I to tell them, or to anybody that they are ’wrong’ ? Even among friends, we often do not have the same tastes or opinions or the systems that sounds the same. There is some loosly based general consensus what makes some system sounding ’good’ but even that is open to interpretation. There are lots of heated (and more often than not, pointless) discussions about what sounds ’right’,simply beacuse we all have different references, different tastes, different rooms and different experiences with hi fi gear.

So, if you say that your perspective toward sound is very different than mine, I do not mind, maybe we can share our experiences and point to what we hear differently. But, if you say that my (or of many others) point of view (or hearing) is the fruit of my imagination than I would reserve the right to consider you rude...with exception to of all that people who are not mad enough to even consider getting involved in hi fi in the first place.

After all and that should be said from time to time, to all ’normal’ people this may sound as lunacy, grown men arguing or spending crazy money on wires or what ever else, in time when anybody can obtain decent sounding gear that reproduce almost all music we hear for much, much less money and certainly with much less frustrations.

So, if your perspective is one of the ’normal’ folks, I appologize, because its completely understandable (for them or for you perhaps) that all what we are talking about here is ’crazy’ or ’impossible’ to hear or even to exist. But, if you are already ’involved’ in hi fi and you have experienced things that are discussed here I simply cant understand why would you claim that other people, with different perspective from you are suffering from delusions. Now,again I repeat, thats is something that I would consider rude, in given context

@amir_asr ’I listened to all three and they sounded different from my generic cables. Bad news for fans your camp is that the generic cables sounded better in all these tests’.

Sorry, but these are all great news. First, you have listened something, than, there are differences, and most important, the cheapest cable was the ’best’. Does it mean that we all should buy generic cables? I guess even you would not suggest something like that. As long as there are others cables to try, depending on our will and budget, we might (or not) find something better

I have never met anybody who wants to spend more money on something that sounds worse. Why on earth would you claim that I or anybody else should be sorry about that particular result?

I know of many such cases, where less expensive products (cables or gear), even from the same brand, sound better than their more expensive, newer or so called ’better’ products

As for the ’blind tests’. Believe it or not, I know of few cases whrere with my open eyes I could not tell the difference between two very different products. After I lived and listened them for a while I could, easily, in the context of my system. They were of the same price and I could care less which one I would buy at the end

@prof We are not discussing ethics or moral philosphy. Perception of hi fi is prone to interpretation, Hi fi set up does not have some objective standard that can be measured or set as a goal to achieve. In that regard we may have very different views on how we interpret what we hear. But, dont patronise me by telling me that is all product of my vivid imagination. On the other hand, here is another food for your thought. Event if it is (only imagination), I find it pretty consistent...hard to believe, isnt it?

@prof I think we may have very different view on how science works, If something cant be 'scientifically' proven and yet, 'existst' (at least by testimonials of so many) than perhaps 'the scinece' (or better the people who claim that they are 'scientists') should try to find new methods or tools to examine those 'events'.

And, yet, 'your camp' (as A.would say) chooses the easy road by calling those claims as non existant. Imagine if you go to see the doctor about some pain you are experiencing and that he sends (even ig he did some tests) you home and tells you that that is only your imagination. Would you have trust in such 'scienece'?

By the way, the Asr did not invent nothing new. Long before them, there were many people who claimed that wires in general are not important. Than, what about power cables? Even today there are lots of people who claim that is scientifically impossible that they can affect the sound. I belive them. Its just that they do not know. Somebody else obvioulsly does know how to do it. Me, no...but I can recognise what it does in my system...despite or because my very consistent bias

As for the 'audiophiles' who are following Asr...or even others who have different perspective...I would suggest to anyone to follow only his 'taste' and his opinion. It is always nice to hear different thoughts and experiences and sometimes we can use other people advices, but at the end we are making the hi fi system for ourselfs, by our own standars, references, conditions and possibilities.

Finally, it would never cross my mind to login on Asr forum and than try to 'explain' them how I think that they are wrong...unlike some of them do....but, than, it must be becuse 'science' is on their side? Where did I hear something like that before?

@thespeakerdude

You have quoted the wrong guy, so let me answer you. Not that it will change anything, but just for the record.

Imho, a system without properly selected cables (power as well) is not going to show its maximum.Dead simple.

Now, we can continue to go back and forth, but it will not change our ’positions’.So, for me, the only obvious solution (for ’somebody’) is not to read discussions, but to listen different systems. Than, depending if he or she likes the things heard, may, or may not, discover that things are different than what somebody wrote about them (on audiogon, or asr, irrelevaant)

But,nobody in right mind should need me to tell him what to do, or Amir either.But, of course, there are people who do not have enough confidence to trust their own ears and those cant be helped. Why somebody choose to ’follow’ instead of to listen is beyond me.

Finally. as for your first sentence, I agree. Never I would try to impose my standards or  think that my choice is the only 'right' one. 

@amir_asr Simple suggestion. Put all Nordost power cables in your system and than swap them with Cardas. Try playing some familiar music to somebody who has zero interest in hi fi, first with one set of cables, than with other.

I bet that any person with a healthy hearing would conclude that those would be two very ’different’ presentations

So, with all that science mentioned I wonder why anybody has not yet discovered the ’trick’ that cable producers use in making their power cords having a distinctive signature like their other lines of cables. Trust me, everyone hates spending money on power cables.(or usb)

If you would, by any chance, ’dicover’ the method used by them (producers) and somehow find the solution to have the same influence on sound signature of some system, but without using those expensive aftermarket cables, you would be person of the year for many audiophiles.

Think about it. You have consistency in ’testimonials’ from various people, who are different as they can be, with also very different systems. And yet, almost majority of them hears the same thing. Find me one person who uses Cardas power cord on Burmester gear or Nordost on Ayre (and has system that sounds ’right’)

There is even perhaps some truth or use in things you do, but you ’fall’ on basics and because of it you are closing the doors for you for so many people.Nobody (in ’audiophile world’) will ever take you serious when you make claims like that.

On the other hand, I would say that you might have very different motivs all together. I have met many sceptics, usually it only takes one swap of the cables for them to hear the difference. Majority of them usually could not care less about such things. But, for you its not just the cables, there are tubes, vinyl and many other thing that you got issues with. Why is that, only you know. For people who follow your ’lead’, hope one day they will come in situation where they will have a chance to hear a good sounding system.Perhaps than they might change their mind. Until than, they will for sure at least save more money than some others...after all, hi fi is a just something we do for fun...nothing profoundly serious about it..

Other than that, there is not much more to be said. We shall all go on our merry way . I would advise anyone to stay away from any further discussion with you, as there is simply no point. Likewise, people who are using insults in their conversation with you, should know better not to