Geof just likes to tease and agitate the audiophiles. Seems to be a hobby. His brand is his way of making it official. Some would call it trolling. I wouldn't waste too much time having a serious discussion with him. 👹 |
Are you trying to tell us MSRP isn't real?
Now I've heard everything. |
...and had nothing of value to say, nothing. Much like half of the other responses.
So what if you took a cable apart and think it is made from wire you can get at a hardware store? Not all cable companies are doing that, many create their own alloys, they use exotic versions of oxygen free copper, they try annealing and baking in ovens at different temperatures and times, many are cryo treating cables. They are experimenting on systems that are obviously allowing them to hear what guys with DIY wire will NEVER, ever hear in their systems.
So what if you "listened" to an expensive cable and couldn't hear any difference.
When someone has a question about expensive cable, those who can't hear the difference have nothing to add to the conversation that should mean anything to the person who has the questions.
Who should you "trust" or "believe", the audiophiles who have figured out how to get a system that is detailed enough to hear the differences in any cables, interconnects, or power cords, or the nimrods that can't hear the difference between anything?
Notice a common denominator among those who think it's ludicrous to spend any serious money on cable? They all have DIY cable and stock power cords. |
Geoff - The word "expensive" is relative to the rest of the system, the speakers/amp/preamp/sources. $10k on cables is not expensive if the rest of the system is worth $100k. However if the rest of the system is worth $12k, then $10k on cables is very expensive and would most likely not be the most efficient money spent in terms of improved sound quality per dollar.
In my system, I think its expensive and inefficient to spend $5k total on cables, which is where I'd be if I spend $1k on a single set of interconnects. I can get more SQ improvement for the same money elsewhere. But that's of course for my system, thus the need to be open-minded about different levels of cables, results will vary for different people. I also have a dedicated power line for example, that might change things dramatically in terms of how cables respond. |
"He figures it cost 20 percent of retail to build a speaker. So for an example. If the Alexia retails for 52k than their cost should be around 10k. I would say that is a very big markup from manufacturing to retail."
He's just figuring. Only Wilson knows what it costs them to make a pair of speakers, and they're not going to tell anyone, including they're dealers. Product cost is the single most guarded secret in any business. If someone in a company that has access to that info tells you what they pay for something, they're lying. It could also be a scam like the auto industry and invoice pricing. |
Garebear,
Just curious, what cables have you had for 20 years and what are you thinking about changing to? |
It's always about system synergy starting with the room.
Wires come last once all the rest is tuned in.
If things are tackled in the right order biggest fish first then finding the right wires should not be nearly as hard.
If things are off to start with only so much to gain out of different wires. You could end up spending money on wires that would have been better served elsewhere before. |
Hey Taters ....as has been brought out in this thread ; cables were No#1 with speakers a close second. I am experiencing this right now. I had the same cable manufacturer in my system for close to 20 years. I have / had pretty much their top of the line .....I recently auditioned another cable manufacturer goods and who some consider them as ''high fi'' or middle of the road, ( but have been around since 1987 or so ) came out with a new top of their line series a few years back and is making me change my whole approach to my system .....it finally sounds like real music .....and they are about 50-60% less on the retail side than the that they are replacing. Just goes to show - it is all about system synergy |
Mapman, actually he didn't try any expensive cables. I trust no one here actually thinks that $1K+ speaker cables are expensive. Hint: they're not. That's kind of entry level at this stage of the game. Now, if he said he tried $10K speaker cables and preferred the ones he's got then maybe we'd have something to talk about. |
|
Garebare,
I know the mark ups on cables is crazy! But even the mark up on speakers is very high. I was having a discussion with a friend of mine on what it cost to build certain speakers. (Not to pick on a certain manufacturer) but we were discussing Wilson audio. He figures it cost 20 percent of retail to build a speaker. So for an example. If the Alexia retails for 52k than their cost should be around 10k. I would say that is a very big markup from manufacturing to retail. |
Mmm,seems like the community is coming to an agreement here. |
After 17 years as an audiophile, the key is honestly to try lots of different types of cable at different price points, because the results are so system dependent. In my pretty respectable system with a Levinson amp and preamp, Revel Studios, PS audio PWD, the best sounding interconnects and speaker cables came from Patrick Cullen at Cullen Cable, and thats after trying several $1k+ speaker cables and interconnects. In previous systems over the years, I compared boutique budget cables of those days to high end stuff and the high end stuff won, so you just have to be open minded and trust your ears. |
If I can hear a big difference and can truly afford it, it's worth it.
If I can't hear much of a difference or can't afford it, it's not worth it.
Is it a good value? Never. That is the nature of Luxury.
I think no-one here is saying luxury cables are value packed. We're saying that in Our system to Our ears there is a big difference, or not.
Some refuse to allow that written-in-stone, logic-based assumptions could be derailed by audio reality. And that's a shame because it is one of the biggest handicaps you can have in this crazy hobby/obsession. Some things that shouldn't work really do matter. The flip side of that is being a sucker. The snake oil is out there and it flies in the face of logic too. The smart audiophile uses his ears and concludes what is right or wrong for His system. None of this is new information. We all know it. What this thread is really about is pride and trash talk. No-one can prove anything. |
We have some really smart people here on this site ......and ones that been around the '' audiophile hobby '' for a long time as well as ones who have very strong opinions with good intentions to inform as well as impart their observations. Nobody is exactly right here and haven't we all learned, especially with CABLES is that to buy what sounds good to YOU. That is the bottom line .... However, why I am adding my 2 cents now is what has been brought up briefly here and should be reinforced is that the markup on these cables is crazy ....some have touched on that as I have noted, but some of these companies and they are the '' bigger ones '' with the '' bigger names '' have a mark - up of anywhere between 60-80% on their manufacturing cost. I understand that it is free enterprise system .....not my point. What is my point is there are some cable manufacture's who have been at it for a long time whose materials, products to their actual cost charge only 20-40% of markup. But there us the belief and the reason for the OP's statement that the more money the better the cable which is NOT always the case. This came directly from an established and successful audio dealer who has since retired..... who taught me to look for value / performance from a sold company and you will never go wrong - or lose a lot of money when you do go to sell it. Especially with cables !!!! There are some cables out there are well engineered, well designed at a good price that are just as good as the crazy expensive cables in which not matter how much money we have to spend.....get to keep some of that money in our pockets .....and use it elsewhere in the system. Also, one last point ....I am also very leery of any cable company who does not display or won't show a cross - sectional view of their cables construction. " We don't due to competitive reasons " ......hmmmmm okay and sorry but don't believe you and maybe they should add some electrical lights to their cable as that will always make it sound better or some magical dust or even better yet ....big electrical boxes. |
"A super car will appreciate in value."
Not after I'm done with it. |
Using the analogy of exotic sports cars to audio cables does not make much sense to me . A super car will appreciate in value . The value can be seen .Open the doors , the hood .It is all visible . It does not take a rocket scientist to see the materials used . cables on the other hand .... |
Stop worrying about me so much. I'll be fine. |
Taters, what you said may imply to most brands of cable's, not taralabs!,I tell you what, let's get in touch with each other and allow me to expose new insight with your beliefs of some cables, are you game? , email me, happy listening. |
Pretty sure Mapman might be just a touch deaf with such an attitude: The only real difference between cables is the price. That's gold, Jerry, gold! |
"10-30-15: Onhwy61
There are volumes of research on why people buy luxury goods. High end audio is a luxury item and within high end audio expensive cables are even more of a luxury. The literature is pretty clear on a consensus view. Buying a luxury item makes someone feel good about themselves. "
Just because research is done and papers are written, doesn’t mean you have the answers. Most papers are published because the people writing them are pushed to do so. That aside, psychology is an extremely difficult science to use effectively. I have a degree in it, but I chose a different career path just for this reason. We know so little about how the mind really works. Science hasn’t even scratched the surface. To assume that high end audio, and cables especially, are just luxuries is just plain wrong. That may be the case for some people, but I suspect the numbers are extremely low. I could easily argue that cables are a tool to most audiophiles. Take Audiogon, for example. I could quote thousands of posters on the topic of cables, and show that the cables intended use, is a tool to either fix a sonic issue within a system, or a general tool used with the intention of increasing sound quality overall. I think you would be hard pressed to come up with a small handful of quotes where the poster is referring to his cables as a status symbol type purchase. I just don't see the evidence for it. |
mapman,
You brought up that the difference between a Ferrari and a Toyota is easy to understand. That's why when you buy a Ferrari you are not hearing guys on car forums arguing that the Toyota is better. On the opposite side of the spectrum when a guy spends 50k on cables you are going to get everyone and his brother questioning your purchase. There is no way you can prove your 50k in cables is better than some guys 5k in cables. And that is why I think there is so much discrepancy when it comes to cables. |
"Mapman, obsess much about what other folks spend on audio? "
Not at all. Absolutely zero. I didn't ask the question. Just offering my opinions like everyone else, dear. |
Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. |
The purchase of a luxury good may or may not make the purchaser happy, but it does make them happy about themselves. It's an affirmation of how they see themselves and their position in society. It's a testament to someone's economic status and discernment. Notice that the two most common rebuttals to those who question the wisdom of expensive cables are variations of "you can't afford it" and "your system or hearing isn't of high enough quality to judge". |
Mapman, obsess much about what other folks spend on audio? |
There are some basics when it comes to cable that can be measured. Then there's everything else that can't or is on the cutting edge of what can be known and demonstrated. I think the question is whether the price of admission to 'what if' is what should be debated.
Some answers in the affirmative can justify a price increase if it's labor intensive or if it requires some exotic metallurgy. Some answers that still remain in doubt should be looked at with a discerning eye (and ear).
Through all the years in audiophile history there have been some killer systems that used some old, tried and trued cables that did the job. Some basic tweaks along the way with coatings, purity, dielectrics, etc are probably all that were and are needed.
Interfaces between amp and speaker should be taken into consideration as well. Beyond that, I"m at a loss to say.
All the best,
Nonoise |
"Like i have stated before the price of copper is $5 a pound . So , it is not the price of the copper . What's left ? Only referring to copper cables as they are the most popular ."
Sorry. I thought you were speaking English. I should have known that a direct answer to a direct question wouldn't go over all that well. So what type of answer were you looking for, if not a direct one? If you can't come up with anything, we'll understand. |
The difference in performance between a $205000 Ferrari and an every man's Toyota is pretty clear.
The difference in performance between various wires is often not so clear. Other than price.
That's the difference.
I agree people can and should feel good about buying whatever they want. If they are happy in the end, all is well.
So its a reasonable answer to say the reason they do it is to make themselves happy, whatever the cost.
Audiophiles are notoriously hard to please when it comes to the toys they love most.
So there you go.
The merits of one cable versus another and the value proposition is a much different and more complicated story.
So there you go.
An easy path and a harder one..... |
Thanks for sharing Onhwy61. I'm feeling better already ;) |
By and large, according to many reviews and many comments by individuals, and regardless of whatever silly arguments naysayers might come up with, the more expensive cables are the best sounding cables. That is not to say that the most expensive cables on Earth are the best sounding ones, necessarily, but they should get you into the ballpark. By the same token, if you purchase some High Fidelity cables they should At the very least get you on the ball park. Of someone is sporting some $105,000 Rockport Hyperion speakers and a $102,000 Walker Audio turntable what's the harm in say $20,000 worth of cables? I don't begrudge anyone buying a $205,000 Ferrari California. Live and let die, I say. |
There are volumes of research on why people buy luxury goods. High end audio is a luxury item and within high end audio expensive cables are even more of a luxury. The literature is pretty clear on a consensus view. Buying a luxury item makes someone feel good about themselves. Whether or not the cables out perform lesser priced cables is somewhat besides the point as long as the buyer perceives them as a good value. Whether or not someone else considers the purchase to be a good value is also besides the point. In some cases, external criticism of the purchases reinforces the purchaser's positive feelings. |
I do believe that effective shielding against noise IS perhaps the most valuable function that any wire can provide that is most likely to make a difference in sound quality in many cases. I've found Pangea 14 series to accomplish this most effectively, as designed and advertised. I'm sure many others do as well. Its not rocket science and need not cost a fortune IMHO.
The fact that Pangea and I am sure others CAN accomplish this for fairly modest cost is something worth noting. |
"Why do some people insist on telling others how to spend their money?"
I agree. But nothing wrong with discussing controversial topics that matter and being an educated buyer. If that means buying $5000 wires for someone, so be it. |
10-29-15: Zd542
" ... the price of copper is $5 a pound . So , it is not the price of the copper . What's left ? ... "
The raw materials cost is only part of the cost of a manufactured product. |
10-29-15: Mapman
" ... in some cases, a power cord might serve a shielding function against RFi and/or EMI noise, but neither of those are necessarily a problem to start with in all cases."
I think Mapman hit a bullseye with this remark, which I think applies to all cables, not just PCs. And it accounts for why the same cable can sound different in different systems or, even, different in differing places in the same system. |
Why do some people insist on telling others how to spend their money? |
"Oh, you fell for the oldest trick in the book chief, high end audio cables." Maxwell Smart |
"The quality of the copper, and how difficult the design is to build. Have a look at this picture.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cardas+cable&safe=off&biw=1600&bih=770&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoA2oVChMIlbyxtZ3pyAIVhCQmCh0Wog-y#imgrc=R76Ojp5kqP3-qM%3A"
If we need to elucidate obvious aspects such as this then let's not waste our time on him. |
"Like i have stated before the price of copper is $5 a pound . So , it is not the price of the copper . What's left ? Only referring to copper cables as they are the most popular ."
The quality of the copper, and how difficult the design is to build. Have a look at this picture.
https://www.google.com/search?q=cardas+cable&safe=off&biw=1600&bih=770&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAgQ_AUoA2oVChMIlbyxtZ3pyAIVhCQmCh0Wog-y#imgrc=R76Ojp5kqP3-qM%3A |
"Audio cheapskate"
Here comes the name calling.
No Geoff I'm still not going to buy any of your cheapo charlatamica garbage.
So keep your smart --- comments to yourself please and do us all a favor. Go splurge and tweak up your beloved portable disc player or something. |
"What is the reason a silly expensive cable sounds better than the rest ? Like i have stated before the price of copper is $5 a pound . So , it is not the price of the copper . What's left ? Only referring to copper cables as they are the most popular ."
Ask the manufacturers that produce high end cables. |
What is the reason a silly expensive cable sounds better than the rest ? Like i have stated before the price of copper is $5 a pound . So , it is not the price of the copper . What's left ? Only referring to copper cables as they are the most popular . |
There are these things called 'ears' & some have no idea that theirs are slightly faulty. |
Nothing is guaranteed to deliver certain results. Do you make this stuff up, Batman? Funny how an audio cheapskate shows up on threads about expensive gear. Revenge of the nerds? |
The lower level Transparent stuff is quite good too. |
A corollary to that is if a product is GUARANTEED by the seller to deliver certain results, the guarantee had best include a money back option if not as well. Otherwise, start sniffing for some snake oil. |
"Having said that, the skeptic in me was not prepared for what "wires" can do. "
No doubt, but the key word is "can". What they will actually do in each case can be very hard to predict, even with the same wire used.
It largely depends on what you start with. Not just what wire gets replaced, but the quality of the power supply portion of the unit used with. Some may be so good already that a better cord makes little or no difference. or in some cases, a power cord might serve a shielding function against RFi and/or EMI noise, but neither of those are necessarily a problem to start with in all cases.
So like most things, it all depends.
Even more reason not to drop big bucks on a wire even if you hear a difference in a demo, unless teh demo is with YOUR gear. If its satisfaction guaranteed or money back, then there is little risk. But it is a very unpredictable thing to invest in. You never know until you try at which point you and your $$$s have already parted. |
Mapman,
Thanks for the response. They were upper level Transparent, so quite expensive. I tend to be one of those who is quite happy with whatever I have, just listening to the music.
Having said that, the skeptic in me was not prepared for what "wires" can do. It really was an eye/ear opener. |
EBM clearly can afford "the best". Good for him! This means he does not get paid per word written here of course. Or if he does he gets paid a lot per word. :^}
EBM may be Donald Trump. Who knows? |
