Why are so many people spending so much money to build “perfect” streaming system?

SNS hit it on the nose.... if it weren't for streaming many great artists could and would be missed if you hadn't subscribed to a streaming service. I've spent a lot of money on cds and vinyl and if it hadn't been for streaming, I would never know about many great singers. We spend money on streaming components to make it sound good once we realized what good artist are now available to listen too. That is the short and long of it.

Yes on Ifi zs.  A few hundreds of choices. Most plays up to 320kbps mp3 / AAC.  A handful of them play flac but you do not expect the same quality of streaming.  Played with some lags so some people actually think the radio station feature is not working. 

Here's a newbie question. Do most streamers allow you to listen to a specific radio station via url? 

Spotify family lo res for research and on the move and then if I love something I get on CD or vinyl (both comparable in quality on my system luckily)

Has cut down purchases for sure ... Some stuff I listen to on training runs ornturbo I would never buy HaHa it's a pace speed thing

i am also referring to recording decades old, back in the analog days...they sound so much better now either as digital playback or streamed. i would love to read a history of the last four decades of the parallel milestones in both the recording and playback chain. make for a good article for the big magazines and start from the 70’s. what where the breakthrough players and the pioneers behind them. step by step. chip design, implementation, PSU, development of architecture and approaches. a complete holistic survey of the last 50 years of digitals evolution.

@malibu457 In my estimation implementation of greatly improved ADC in recording studios was responsible for much of digital SQ improvement. For streaming , lossless services.

I've never had a single long term failure with streaming, user error has been occasional issue with custom path I've taken, Plug n play is pretty foolproof these days, needn't be reason for avoiding streaming.

“Another sticking point is that streaming is dependent on hardware & software that, in my experience, just seems to go bad every so often, often without warning. ”
@edcyn

You been around here long enough to know consumer grade laptops are not the best way to stream music. A modest investment in a dedicated streamer like Node will give much more robust streaming hardware and app interface. And no one is saying you need to ditch the physical media playback, if you choose to stream music :-)

Even though I do a lot of streaming, it is NOT part of the argument that you have to give up any other format.  Like others have noted, I have many albums in my local collection that are not available on streaming and never will be -- for example, the ones that weren't commercially available releases. (I spent several years transferring a hundreds of LPs and open reels to digital.)

My system integrates my local collection and my Qobuz account seamlessly -- no problem to play one song or album from my local music and the next one from Qobuz. 

So, suggesting that going to online streaming requires one to discard your existing collection makes no more sense that saying back in the 1970s that you couldn't listen to FM or cassettes if you had a turntable.  If I like the music, I'll take it in any form I can get it.

@edcyn agree sir. I just sometimes look around at my 5000 records and 5000 cds and wonder IF I could get along without MOST of it. Not ready to do it yet.

when and what where the breakthroughs in digital sound? 2010? what technological breakthrough brought the most improvements?  i would like to see and incremental technological history on how we got here.  was it software i.e. recording techniques, and hardware DAC development and strides made in chip implementation?

@bubba12 

As much as I tout streaming here, I'm not ready to contemplate ditching my other media sources. First off, I just have too much stuff that isn't, and will probably ever be, available on line or over the aether.

Another sticking point is that streaming is dependent on hardware & software that, in my experience, just seems to go bad every so often, often without warning. Every once in a while the laptop I use to  command the streaming festivities just doesn't perform the task, whether it's because it needs a software update or the update I've just downloaded puts my streaming capabilities temporarily out of whack.

Finally, yeah, I do like to gaze at album covers, hold printed opera libretti & lyric sheets in my hands, and gaze at the vintage pictures the liner notes often include. I enjoy reading the technical data, too. Who produced the record? Who was the engineer? Where was it recorded?

God knows.

Interesting how @walkenfan2013 has disappeared from the conversation.  Guess he continues to think that, somehow, streaming is more expensive than other forms of audio playback.

I'm simply not ready to give up my collection of bought music yet. I can play you streams and I would dare someone to sit there and claim there is something missing. I doubt my sanity all the time because I start by playing records but after a couple sides I just would rather sit in the chair and play things at my leisure through streaming.  We have all been given a dream scenario for listening to music and we seem to not be able to accept just how fantastic streaming is. I could buy a condo in Florida with my music collection money and I wouldn't have lost any of the music minus a small number of non streamable albums which I could keep. The question really should be 'why aren't more of us going to streaming only?'.

Being an older person (76) simplifying life where possible is important to me and one of the reasons for streaming my music. Music streamer, dedicated DAC, integrated amp, CD burner, and a pair of speakers are all that is needed. No record or CD collection or the electronics to play them is needed. The CDs all have been down loaded to the music server and then sold or given away. We use Tidal and once they learn what you listen to through AI they post a daily collection of 10 songs similar to what you listen to. This opens up a whole world of new songs and artists to listen to. On forums like this one posters will occasionally post favorite songs they listen to, and instead of having to purchase and album or CD, just pull it up from the streaming service and your music world expands even more. Cost for a music system ranges from a few hundred $ to thousands of $$ depending on your budget. Figuring out what to buy can be intimidating but there are a lot of experience posters on these forums with good recommendations. Jump into the streaming pool you won't regret it.

Happy New Year,

Craig

@laoman

"@mikelavigne . Do you like classical music? How many recordings of Wagner’s Ring Cycle do you have? I have 5. Can you get 5 different recordings on ANY streaming platform?"

In the future, if you are going to make a counter argument, perhaps have some basic knowledge about the subject so you don’t embarrass yourself.

I just did a brief check on Tidal and although I didn’t do a full count, there are perhaps 50 different versions of Wagner’s Ring Cycle available.

Last time I checked that is more than 5.

You can enter the world of HD streaming (24-bit/192 Kb/Sec) for under $200 and $13 a month via an Amazon Echo Studio and Amazon Music HD. Oh yeah, you get voice control and a home automation hub thrown in free. Add another Echo Studio for real stereo, and you're out the door for under $400. Make sure you do the latest Software upgrade which balances out the original bloated bass. Stepping up, the Marantz PM7000N Streaming Integrated Amp has won a boatload of awards from Audiophile magazines all over the world. It is a true integrated amp, with full streaming, as well as digital, analog, and phono inputs and a very healthy 60 W/Ch power and fed from a toroidal power supply. Beyond that, the Marantz Model 40 adds a bit more power and flexibility while upgrading the rest of the package. But if you have an existing system the for $499 you can just add the Blue Sound 2i streamer, the generally recognized high value standalone streamer. 

Yes, we should be in agreement and respect that diminishing return (DR) point depends on the individuals, disposable income level and other factors. However, if the point is so widely spread and subjectiveness driven, the DR therory is no longer valid. Basically, every price point and the corresponding performance cost ratio can be the sweet spot. Mr. A is fine with wiim, Mr. B is fine with iFi ZS, Mr. C is on the Mercury streamer, Mr. D is on the Auralic, Lumin, Aurender, and on and on. There is no diminishing return by this broad statement.

So, let us not talk about DR. Don’t talk about the big word that we could not handle. Just enjoy the music with the system we are content with. Happy new year, everyone. 😊

@loomisjohnson 

I fully understand the concept of diminishing returns, as long as you are happy with your system, nothing else matters. I am going to reiterate what @charles1dad said, 

Each one of us has their own level set points of performance/value ratio.

Not sure I mentioned this previously, but jitter minimization is key to best quality streaming, not sure there is any amount of jitter humans can't detect. This is where large measure of resources should be concentrated, relatively high levels of resolution/transparency can be attained with a large variety of equipment, clocking is key, this is where the best streaming equipment leaves the rest behind.

The one purchase that took me over that plateau was my new custom build streamer with amazing LPS. @sns 

Is it raspberry pi based?  Could you articulate and share a bit more details with us?  More importantly, I am interested to know how is it compared to the streamers you have owned before.  

I've built a number of systems over the years, I'm not an equipment churner, rather system builder, so the following pattern repeated itself over the years. A series of upgrades resulting in marginal gains until system was completed. I considered a system completed when only minor tweaks left. I considered new speakers or amp to be the beginning of new system. So this pattern repeats itself a number of times over period of over twenty years.

Each successive build relies upon knowledge gained from building past systems, so marginal gains also experienced from one system to next, this means each successive system better SQ than previous systems.

So we come to present system, same pattern followed with far more attention paid to streaming setup vs. prior system where I first incorporated streaming into setup. The vast majority of changes I've made over past five years with this system have been streaming related which has resulted in the usual pattern of marginal gains.  However with this system and more recent changes in streaming equipment there has been this breakthrough or surpassing of this certain plateau that has always existed for me with digital in general. The one purchase that took me over that plateau was my new custom build streamer with amazing LPS. Digital that now competes with the best vinyl setups I've heard in regard to ease, refinement, harmonic development was made possible by this single purchase. Certainly, all the marginal gains made by all the changes made prior made it possible, but the streamer made all the difference.

So, based on my experience obviously I'm going to judge streamer as the most important component in a streaming setup. Assuming one has a system capable of extracting max potential from a streamer, the streamer has become as important as amps and speakers  in my calculations.

Back to the question of why are people spending money (or "so much money" in the words of the OP) on streaming. I suppose the question is, relative to what, in the sense of why do people spend lots of money on anything? But to avoid going down that wormhole, let's just confine the question to spending on streaming versus spending on other source components. To that extent, I'd suggest that people are spending money in order to get an improvement in the quality of reproduction - probably with reference to other analogue and digital sources they own. In my own experience, whether it's CD, Vinyl or digital delivered over ethernet there is huge scope for improvement and, unfortunately, it usually costs money. In my own experience, streamed music is just as susceptible to improvement as CD or Vinyl.

howsoever, as per @lanx0003there are diminishing returns in this game and, purely subjectively, the wiim is the (dirt cheap) point at which sonic improvements become more marginal. just my opinion.

No question that there are diminishing returns with regard to audio (Or just about anything for that matter).  Determining what this point is will vary on an individual basis. Each one of us has their own level set points of performance/value ratio.
 

I was pointing out that some would make the case that the Wiim is  “bit perfect” and thus cannot be bettered. Anything purportedly better is wasteful spending and there’s nothing to be gained sonically.

Charles

I have a decent system that I’ve built (and rebuilt) over years and am happy with the sound. Via trial and error the streaming aspect has evolved to a streamer-only device and a DAC, both relatively low-cost (iFi for both, but I also found that a Topping E50 would do a great job; BTW, I’d definitely choose ethernet over wifi). By separating the two I got a streamer with a wide range of service compatibility, and the ability to try different DACs to optimize the analog signal for the rest of my setup (always using a USB DAC for widest range). I’m using Qobuz but not paying the full price (every Black Friday season you can get a better deal on an annual subscription), and I decided to purchase Roon (figuring I’ll live long enough to realize the financial discount of ownership) because it’s the closest thing I can get, right now, to the database system I’d write, myself (I feel it pays for itself in the tree-related connections to artists and music I’d never have heard of, otherwise, as well as its recognition of sub-genres and its hardware optimization and zone coverage). And that’s the "budget way" I’m doing it.

Of course, the benefits are relative to how much you enjoy music; my preference is for having a system I like that can withstand the test of time, and doesn’t come between me and the music/performance. I’ve got what would appear to be an expensive system (other than the streamer & dac) - I grew it because of the sound and design philosophy, not because of any bragging rights - but have paid relatively little because I’ve been patient. If you’re in the last half of your life, I’d suggest you give it a try; it doesn’t have to cost a small fortune.

@lalitk i'm more-or-less out of vinyl these days--my last vinyl rig was a technics 1200 with a garden-variety ortofon cartridge and  a rega fono preamp and/or an arcam integrated. sounded fine, not transcendant, but i was never committed enough to upgrade.

as for the skeptics of the wiim mini, i do not suggest that it's the SOTA or that there's no justification to spend more. howsoever, as per @lanx0003 there are diminishing returns in this game and, purely subjectively, the wiim is the (dirt cheap) point at which sonic improvements become more marginal. just my opinion.

Charles,

I believe better SQ can be expected with higher end (in price) streamers. However, there is a diminished return as you know and the poor men like me is trying to find the sweet spot. Based on what I have seen/read from the reliable reviewers / Audiogoners, IFi ZS seems to beat BS Node and even streamers 7-8 times of the price. So I am sort of settled down there with ifi zs and enjoy it.

I have not used NUC previously so I had no experience with the SQ playing from NUC. But I could attest that, relative to MS-window based laptop and the fanless Macbook, the dedicated quality streamer like ifi zs defintely renders noticeably better SQ. I have been there and there is no turning back (unless wifi is out).

Do you mean rather than measuring and correcting for the vibration of a needle through a rough groove? The original cars were electric and would have remained that way if battery tech was there. If streaming was the first source of music, NO other forms of delivery would ever have ever existed. One believes Shannon's proven paper ... because it is proven.

@lanx0003

What makes it not sound as good if it does satisfy all the digital source requirements, your thoughts?

That is for you to decide. So definitely listen to it and develop a judgment of what you hear. If it does satisfy you sonically, then good outcome for you. My position is that people can usually experience better sound quality with more ambitious higher level audio streamers.

I do recognize that for some this isn’t so because “bits are bits “ and nothing more matters given this mindset. A computer/NUC is equal to (Maybe better) a purposeful built music server/player. Find out for yourself by listening.

Charles

I guess that this thread was destined to implode.

Enjoy the New Year..

... The Wilm unit will absolutely “cut it” for the “bits are bits “ adherents...

Charles,

I actually want wiim to sound good, at least closer to the IFi ZS, so I can keep / enjoy it. It is very affordable and the UI programming is brilliant given its compact size.  What makes it not sound as good if it does satisfy all the digital source requirements, your thoughts?

@jssmith If you understand that then you should also understand that the product of noise and jitter is distortion. And the levels of distortion that are audible can be measured and have been known for many decades. And almost all digital devices are below those distortion levels. No one disputes that humans can't hear 50kHz. Why do people dispute that they can hear inaudible distortion?

Possibly correct when it comes to the effects of RFI/EMI, not sure. Not correct in the case of jitter. Jitter is measurable and the effect is measurable, but jitter is not about additional noise, audible or not, but rather distortion of the sound itself by smearing the timing. If measurements are your thing, we can look to the ever controversial ASR team and their review of the Allo DigiOne that I am using:

Amir gives this device a high rating based on jitter measurements. Jitter, or lack thereof, is audible, if you have the system and the ears to hear it.

@lanx0003 

You do not need to spend 2-3k to have a decent streamer but the $80 wiim does not cut it

But that’s the point . The Wilm unit will absolutely “cut it” for the “bits are bits “ adherents. By their reasoning there is no justification to need more. The Wilm satisfies all digital source responsibilities. From this perspective, the Bluesound Node is unnecessary and overpriced.

Charles 

Can't count the many times I've observed the oft repeated mantra of illogic that believes no further improvements available, and this applied to every single component in audio systems. And then these individuals open their minds to trying the things more experienced audiophiles suggest, shazam, new converts!

Funny thing is, I don't see individuals, at least within all the audiophile forums maintaining long term static setups. If one already had a setup that couldn't possibly be bettered, why would you change a single thing, and furthermore, why are you even involved in these forums. If I was as truly happy as these individuals profess to be I'd not be involved in any audiophile talk, just blissfully happy and ignorant in my little bubble. Seems some unncertainty here, just jump in, the waters fine!

You do not need to spend 2-3k to have a decent streamer but the $80 wiim does not cut it.  I tried it and, as Stereophile commented, the bass is soft and the sound is not as engaging.  Tried IFi Zen Streamer ($300) and loved the SQ, although the UI (such as search engine) with Qobuz (through Mconnect) is not as convenient as the UI on Wiim.  

@zlone 

The two factors that are frequently ignored in the streamer space, beyond the 1's and 0's, are noise and jitter. These are real factors in hardware design and in the end audio quality. Especially jitter. It is undeniable that the clocking of the signal is critical to delivering good, focused sound.

If you understand that then you should also understand that the product of noise and jitter is distortion. And the levels of distortion that are audible can be measured and have been known for many decades. And almost all digital devices are below those distortion levels. No one disputes that humans can't hear 50kHz. Why do people dispute that they can hear inaudible distortion?

“but i'm hard pressed to see spending alot more for incremental improvements.”
@loomisjohnson 

Good to know you find your streaming outlay satisfactory. I am curious how much investment you have in your Turntable / Cart and phonostage? 

i just got a wiim mini airplay2 on amazon for $89 and connected it to a $150 smsl su-6 dac. now, i'm not one of these all-digital-sounds-the-same guys, and i trust those dropping megabucks on their streamers are satisfied, but i'm hard pressed to see spending alot more for incremental improvements.

@cleeds

and would only add that some some clearly come here specifically to argue and pontificate.

Agreed.

Charles

charles1dad

... there’s really no effective reasoning with this rigid mindset.

I agree completely, and would only add that some some clearly come here specifically to argue and pontificate.

@charles1dad 

😁👍

@ghdprentice 

That is thoughtful and well stated. It seems to me that the really successful and innovative audio designers and manufacturers have a more “scientist” curiosity and open mind. They recognize what they can’t easily explain or understand and seek out the why?
Actually more humble and displaying humility rather than a know it all arrogance and dogma. You often learn more by acknowledging what you do not know and exploring further and deeper. Science seems to concede that there are no absolutes.

Charles
 

@lalitk / @charles1dad …”there is no effective reasoning with this ridged mindset.”

This is very true. I have worked with hundreds of electrical design engineers, not the ones that create great audio components (like preamps and DACs), but ones that create microelectronics… microchips, DAC chips, and OP amps… etc. overall, these guys are absolutely sure they completely understand reality, far above any other human being… I mean it is Jules Verne’s Mysterious Island all over again… “we understand how things work and that is it”. They can be unbelievably closed minded… having their view that “it can’t make a difference”, therefore they refuse to hear one (ASR also comes to mind). I have some engineers that are still friends and they are on the open minded side and they have allowed me to show them otherwise.

To be honest, I think this attitude really slowed the advancement of high end audio. It took some real pioneers to look beyond the “It shouldn’t make a difference”, with such stubborn egotistical self righteousness, to listen and draw their own conclusions. Now there are lots of high end companies that hire engineers into an environment of listening is the key to evaluating a design. It is the pioneers like William Zane Johnson of Audio Research and Bill Conrad and Lew Johnson of Conrad Johnson that broke through the dogma and realized that a few measurements did not tell the whole story.

Sorry about the rant. But as a manager of multifunction departments and a corporate executive for decades, I learned to flip realities depending on which group I was speaking with. Honestly, the engineering community is the most difficult to deal with, having an incredibly narrow view of the world. The scientists are also very argumentative (I was a scientist for ten years), but they at least go back to observation to prove their point… so this softens changing reality to fit their view, mostly. 

Let a thousand flowers bloom. And if you're a listener who just likes to listen to your first-day-it-came-out LP of Led Zeppelin II, so be it. I got a "Whole Lotta Love" for ya.

@zlone

I appreciate your comments and sharing of your experiences. I don’t believe that jssmith would dispute that differences are heard, but rather why they are heard. Manipulation of signal/distortion to achieve a desired sound.

I believe that he feels his 179.00 laptop and 130.00 DAC are technically correct (Perfect bits transmission) and nothing further is required or necessary. It can’t get any better, only different. @lalitk is right, there’s really no effective reasoning with this rigid mindset.

Charles

@jjsmith 

I think the overwhelming evidence is in favor of better equipment sounding better, cables making sonic differences… etc. No analogous relationship between UFOs and audio.

@zlone

Great post! I concur with your experience on noise and jitter. I was quite surprised to hear the improvements brought forward by using a very accurate external clock with a high end streamer.

@jssmith

The sound quality of streamers only depends upon the analog conversion, which at this point is standardized and audibly perfected. And as a former software engineer, I understand that the rest of the hype is just marketing nonsense sold to the uninformed or those suffering from what psychologists call "belief perseverance." So save your money

I am a software engineer myself and having spent a good chunk of my career working at the operating system and hardware level, have a good understanding of the error correction built into computing systems to ensure all bits arrive intact. They generally do, but that is not the whole story. I also worked with a lot of electrical engineers along the way, debugging their hardware as it integrated with my software. A key trait for success in this space is learning to know what you don't know. So many times, after everyone saying, "That can't be happening", or, "That can't be the problem", we found solutions that surprised us and increased our understanding of the many factors that influence hardware and software at the lowest level. 

I am on my third streamer, each one has been a step up in resolution and soundstage. This one I built custom from available components (Pi, Allo, LPS), with a focus on isolation and shielding of the streamer board. The results are amazing in comparison to the Node 2i that I had. The two factors that are frequently ignored in the streamer space, beyond the 1's and 0's, are noise and jitter. These are real factors in hardware design and in the end audio quality. Especially jitter. It is undeniable that the clocking of the signal is critical to delivering good, focused sound. 

Of course, not everyone can hear these differences. Whether it is the lack of resolution of the their system or their ears just aren't tuned that way, it is easy to think there is no difference. Try the Pi/Allo DigiOne, it's a cheap test, and I think you would hear the difference. Trust me there is one.

I have learned long ago not to reason with folks like @jssmith and even OP. Its quite apparent from their posts that they are not here to learn or explore the true potential of streaming. It’s the same old stale mindset, bits are bits.