Why are so many companies like harbeth making old speakers designs and charging thousends?
Hi everyone I am a little confused about the speaker market. I had been two dealers that sell totally different products. The one I had been to which I bought my forests from sells Totem And Monitor Audio and B&W. though I went to the other that sells Harbeth And audio note speakers which they recommended me buying. And the problem I have trouble understanding Is when I spend thousands on a speaker. Especially my next big purchase. That has no real new technology and is the size of my dads old conerwalls and never use to cost Thousands to build. With no technological advancements. to a product such as the totem that is small compact and modern for the wife approval , and to be more exact. The new Element line and technologically advanced like the torrent driver. Which I can get the same speaker as the same cost or less of the audio note and Harbeth and dose not need to take up the whole room or look like the 70's. Whats your opinion? Would you buy a product that is a 30 year old design that costs 5 times as more with the only diffinceses as upgraded silver wire and upgraded crossover components. To a thousand dollar woofer that is machined not stamped and has so much magnetic flux that it ca lift a car and no crossover?
My amp will surprise you Charles. It happens to be a great value and where I think audio, high end audio, is heading. Lyngdorf TDAI amp with internal pre, Dac, and near miraculous room correction. The room correction is just out of this world and utterly shocked me when engaged.
I hear the Harbeths the way the designer intended! No modding this piece I'm afraid. First digital amp I really love. 100% digital unit!
I know several folks who sold off $30,000 separates in sonic favor of this simplified approach. It did that for me also. Cost me $4,000.
Great match with the Harbeth speakers. No overblown mid-bass no matter where I place them because of the room correction feature. Up against the wall is no problem even.
This amp is a poster child example of audio progress and value.
I do for the person who said totems sound crappy and only sound good with ss amps. I truly disagree with that statement I use a 60watt tube amp with the forest and it sounds better then solid state with tubes, with half the wattage. And also tryed out the new element earths out. With the torrent driver are even more esier to drive with lower wattage amps and sound even better! Esapacialy since they have no crossover.
Hi Bill, You have no plans to modify your Harbeths, this is a first for you. I wonder how long you can resist reaching for your soldering iron 😊😊. What amplifier are you using to drive them? Charles,
Audi's Quattro system was first introduced in 1980. So the basic technology is 36 years old, and yet it remains the best of its kind, as anyone who has driven aggressively under adverse conditions will attest.
I collect (mechanical) vintage watches, and, among many others, own a Girard-Perregaux High Frequency Chronometer from the early '70s that is accurate to within two seconds a day. That is as good as any mechanical watch ever produced, in spite of the fact that important strides have been made in both materials and manufacturing over the last half-century.
I am currently using a re-capped, 45 year old Accuphase E-303 integrated amp, and the sound is excellent in my system. What is it driving? Harbeth P3ESR speakers. Both components were purchased used.
Are there sold-state amps with newer technology that I could have bought for around 1100 Euros that would sound better? Perhaps. Significantly better? I'd be surprised, frankly.
Are there speakers featuring newer technology that I could have bought for 1800 Euros that would sound better? Perhaps. Significantly better? Again, I'd be surprised, though the Harbeth's are admittedly well-suited to my listening tastes and current space.
I am not a die-hard Harbeth fan, as these are my first pair. But a really good, basic design, executed finely (which was/is the case with both above-mentioned companies), doesn't necessarily require the latest, available technologies, or even materials and manufacturing capabilities, to be of high value.
Good questions. You can see from the responses that opinions vary as to pricing and value in the market, understandably.
From my limited knowledge it does seem that newer designs (last 10-15 years) allow some smaller speakers to produce lower frequencies than some past models. I'm sure there are many exceptions.
I bet if you shop around you can find something that fits your tastes and your home layout. Buying used (wisely) can take some sting out of mistakes and make upgrading less painful.
It appears from the posts above that the answer is high manufacturing costs in Britain and some people like the sound enough to pay the price.
I disagree with the idea that improvements in speaker technology have not improved the sound of speakers over the last 40 years. That's just crazy.
Some people prefer the sound of older designs or older speakers, and there's nothing wrong with that, but there are a lot of amazing new speakers out there.
Charles, I would not attempt to mod the 40.1 as they are voiced perfectly in my estimation. I think I may do more harm than good:)
They are the kind of speaker that makes one forget about upgrades etc...Sure I could most likely extract a tad more resolution, but most likely at a cost to musicality.
Don't begrudge the real estate the speakers take up, there is no replacement for displacement. These smaller speakers are much harder to drive, which leaves you using a crappier sounding higher power ss amp. There have been no technological advances in speakers, in fact most newer designs sound much worse. You can't beat a paper driver with a high efficiency magnet in a big box. The advent of the transistor sent speaker development completely in the wrong direction.
I do not have a personal grudge or dislike for harbeths I had personably I demoed and loved sound there sound so much. I almost bought a pair. But my dad was the one who brought up this topic idea. Which had some points to it, and made me think twice would you want to spend money on something that takes quite a bit of real estate in a starter home with older technology. Or a speaker that sounds as good or the same. With the same price smaller foot print and newer technology, that's all. Also person was going to spend 10,000 or more you would want some new technologic advancements with it for that price. But who am I to say, speakers are a on a persons taste and like. It's like what like in the end and personally the sound,do you drink in the morning coffee or tea, or a cappuccino. No one person is the same.
Do you think Harbeth cost to do business has increased past 30 years? Wages, material, insurance ...
1970's Flashback
Cost of a new home: $71,800.00 Median Household Income: $16,461.00 Cost of a first-class stamp: $0.15 Cost of a gallon of regular gas: $0.86 Cost of a dozen eggs: $0.85 Cost of a gallon of Milk: $1.62
Hi Bill (Grannyring ), You have extensive experience modifying many different audio products. What do you think of the stock crossover in your Harbeths? Are you tempted to do any mods on them? Charles,
About 10 years back, I was considering buying the Dragonfly monitors made by Soundsmith, which listed at the time new for $1600. I had heard the monitors at an audio show and absolutely loved them. But life got in the way and $1600 was more than I felt comfortable spending at the time. Fast forward to today and the same speakers cost $6000 ... 3 1/2 times more. Hell if I can figure out why. I scratch my head like you are doing now.
What everyone has said makes sense ... if you don't like the Harbeths or you like some other brand better or the price makes no sense to you ... or whatever ... don't buy them.
There are a few good points made here. I know very well how premium boutique Parts most certainly can make a average loudspeaker very good. With the Harbeths the only thing special is their patented midrange driver . 6 moons foes hood in depth coverage the crossover is well below average in my opinion not 1 top brand product yo be found Anywhere. I emailed them several times totally No response. Ripoff IMO. Just imagine how much better they would be using Top Crossover parts The ones in here from Taiwan Really for $6k .it is your money !!
Over the years I have owned many LS3/5A type speakers including Spendor,KEF,etc. IMO ,the Harbeth P3ESR is the most musical one yet. The fit and finish is outstanding ! And it ain’t only the silver wire that makes ’em sound so good !
Ever hear of "supply and demand" or "economies of scale"? Harbeth is a smaller shop with very high standards. They don't have a huge factory in China mass producing plastic junk. The UK has extremely high costs for manufacturing but in this case, you get what you pay for, quality.
Personally, I wish the big boxes of 30.1 or 40.1 were a little more modern sounding but I'd never compromise that amazing sound for looks.
Www.ohmspeakers.com sell updated and refurbed versions of their old box designs similar to modern Harbeth for essentially the same price they cost 40 years ago. Don't know how they compare sound wise but the originals were always one of my favorites back in the day and the new versions must be as good or better. A pair of refurbed Ohm H speakers is a pretty formidable speaker for only $800 a pair these days. When available.
I didn’t mean to imply that Harbeth doesn’t innovate with newer technology but in the end they seem to strive for the same sound (very mid range centric at the expense of the extremes). A well proven but old formula. My auto analogy would be something like a modern Mustang: same looks, same NVH, despite now having fully independent rear suspension and a newer platform. Despite all the advances, they haven’t really changed the car and for the money, you can get better, unless you’re into nostalgia, or in the case of Harbeth, their house sound. If you like it, fine.
".... the only diffinceses as upgraded silver wire and upgraded crossover components. To a thousand dollar woofer that is machined not stamped and has so much magnetic flux that it ca lift a car and no crossover?"(I made no corrections, just copied and pasted) The only component of a speaker system YOU left out, in the above rant, is the cabinet. Improvements have been made by numerous companies, regarding materials to make them less resonant also, not to mention improvements/advancements in every other transducer necessary(midranges, tweeters, etc). As others have stated, if you don't appreciate the progress made, or the sound, save your money and relax.
Every bit of audio gear is built to a pricepoint . For example, POS chi-fi caps can cost a piddly few cents each and then they range all the way to the high-end build Mutdorfs ... Google them for a summary of the differences .
Harbeths are top-end quality build kit (UK) instead of shoddy crap build and shoddy labour made Chi-Fi, and has been emphasized above, that is why they sound so good...
in in this hobby you get what you pay for ... Full stop.
Jakecanada, There are so many brands of speakers available and at all price points. It is a buyer's marketplace and you'll be able to find precisely what you want if you're patient. The only criteria I consider important is "how does it sound ?" Technology in and of itself is irrelevant in my opinion, bottom line is sound quality /performance, Some design concepts are so fundamentally right as to be timeless. Technology claims can be legitimate or marketing hyperbole. At the end of the day you still must decide by listening. Charles,
Marketing efforts would have us believe much if not most of what's really evolutionary tweaks equals reinventing the wheel. My own speakers are based on designs some of which originate in the late 20's (the mid driver; based on RCA's 1428 field coil unit) , and I find them substantially more rewarding than most newer designs. Go figure.
Like dweller said, never mind the speaker, buy it for the sound. You have cars makes that rest on their laurels, mimicking what they looked and performed like 50 years ago. Audio is no different. People and makes can buy into their own hype and therefore feel no need to improve, albeit incrementally.
I don’t mean to sound so harsh when it comes to Harbeth but every time I listen to them, I walk away feeling "meh". Others are bowled over by the sound so if you aren’t enamored by them, then by all means, walk away and don’t look back.
But why charge twice as much or more then what it costs to manufacture it.
Twice as much? In general, manufacturing costs are about 20% of the list price. Usually 20% for manufacturing, 20% for R&D, 20% for Advertising/Marketing, and 40% for dealer markup.
What ever happened about giving the best sound for the most real cost?
That business model is still out there, you just have to open your eyes and look around. No one is forcing you to buy Harbeth speakers.
I know but if it all about that its sounds good. But why charge twice as much or more then what it costs to manufacture it. And is it not all about giving most affordable sound for the most reasonable cost of the parts and technology or true cost. What ever happened about giving the best sound for the most real cost?
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