Who thinks $5K speaker cable really better than generic 14AWG cable?

Thanks for the reply, kn.  Absolutely concur that if you cannot hear/perceive a positive difference, money is better spent elsewhere.

Best, Bill

Dynaquest4

Thanks for your reply, similarly busy.  I first started experimenting with cables in a serious way over 10 years ago in an attempt to improve a crappy system with out changing any of the boxes that I wanted to like.  We are not talking high end wires here, and a lot of it was home brew, but right off the bat I heard differences.  These wire related differences were not always for the better, and some cables just highlighted deficiencies in some element of the electronics they were connecting.

Fast forward to today and I now have a purpose designed and built listening room with its own dedicated power line, so a lot of factors are controlled.  In my decidedly midfi system I find wire differences to be on par with changing out DACs, with descending effect of PCs, SCs, analog ICs then digital ICs, but all show noticeable changes to my ears in my system.

I am a trained scientist, but in earth sciences, not electrical engineering. In my immediate family I have two electrical emgineers working in bleeding edge aerospace and two mechanical engineers. All either musicians and/or audiophiles.  Of the four engineers, one of the mechanical engineers is a complete wire skeptic.  The others are more willing to accept that there are attributes of materials, design and application that can result in better perceived performance that is difficult to measure with typically available measurement equipment.  Perhaps derived from designing electronic guidance systems to operate to spec in dirty emf environments, dunno cause they don't talk about it.

I think there are two areas where measurement and specs may not relate to real world experience with hifi cables.  1) things we hear like tone, soundstage and "speed" may be hard to measure, and 2) wire specifications and performance may not be conservative in dirty complicated applications behind your gear.

Bottom line, you either hear a difference or you don't, and if you don't, you have more $$ left for source material.

I'm guessing this is a bogus entry. If this was really true, why would somebody buy Wilson speakers that use fairly pricey wire inside of each speaker instead of ordering a special pair of wilsons with 14ga zip cord in them to save a buck?
i have always heard differences between cables: interconnects, speaker, USB, and es[ecially power cables. Not saying that more expensive cables are always better, but there is a difference.
i normally bring home multiple pairs of whatever cables I'm looking at and do my own shootout, and when I finish, I bring in my wife to get her opinion. She can also hear a difference between cables. I'm the last person who would buy a $10k cable to get 5% better quality.

Exactly!  People who complain about these type threads can easily enough just "opt out" and unfollow any particular discussion.  But they don't.  They just complain, I suspect, just to demonstrate how "above this" they are.  Funny.

@rja  

i quite agree - if only people would stop posting then it would stop this outa control thread 

/ooops I just noticed I made the thread even longer and more pointless.

I can’t believe this stupid thread has gotten the legs it has with its obviously taunting and derisive title probably authored by a troll. Please spare me!

Exactly....well said Dave!

True science begins with the observation of a phenomenon or phenomena and the desire to explain it, not with the preconception that it is impossible and the desire to rationalize denial.

Dave

we can all go back and forth and probably will, but in the end it's like everything else in audio.  Individual and up to each of us to audition and chose what sounds best to US in OUR rooms.  

It's discussions like this that keep forums hot though and fun to hang out in.

Thanks Geof.  That's why I asked if naysayer has even heard the cable I reference in my system.  I see no science or test results that show one way or the other.  I respect the heck out of science and physics.  My daughter i nearly complete in her physics degree and always discusses scientific facts etc...She also looks for things that may be missed.  

"One key point that keeps hitting me squarely between the eyes about this thread though is that I see myriad references to real science, scientific method, etc...on this thread but when I read through everything carefully and objectively, I don’t see real science or scientific method being utilized. I see scientific jargon being utilized to justify a point of view but little if any real science or hard test results being presented regarding cables good or bad."

That’s what naysayers do.  The way they’ve always done it, the way they'll always do it. You know what I’m taking about: Science cannot not allow it. You can’t disobey the laws of science. Anyone who knows science knows it. Anyone who ever took 12th grade science knows (blah blah blah). This is what naysayers have been saying for 40 years. Why on Earth would they stop now?

from Zen and the Art of Debunkery,

"Seeing with humility, curiosity and fresh eyes was once the main point of science. But today it is often a different story. As the scientific enterprise has been bent toward exploitation, institutionalization, hyperspecialization and new orthodoxy, it has increasingly preoccupied itself with disconnected facts in a psychological, social and ecological vacuum. So disconnected has official science become from the greater scheme of things, that it tends to deny or disregard entire domains of reality and to satisfy itself with reducing all of life and consciousness to a dead physics."

I've been reading this thread almost daily and can appreciate everyone's points of view.  Unlike some though, I do see value in ctsooner's and others' more recent posts as well.  I've posted my views previously on my own experience trying a lot of cables from dirt cheap to inexpensive to mid-priced to 'expensive' and back down the price slope several times culminating in what I use today (and the even more expensive cables I've evaluated them against).  The fact is, I've heard differences in all sorts of cables; both those I could afford and those I could not; I've settled on a combination that I truly hear the difference and that help make a musical experience that is of the type I am after.

Trust me when I tell you I am not happy about the dollars it has taken to make this journey or (no matter how much I love the current sound) what it takes to maintain or better it.  The fact does remain however that whenever I have pulled cables out of the system and gone to mono-priced or similar, sound stage collapses, imaging goes to hell and the overall musical experience suffer dramatically.  I would also ask you to trust that if I could achieve the sound I have today for less dollars spent on cables and that money put elsewhere, I definitely would.

I'm sure that this post will draw either much criticism from the cable detractors or price skeptics among you (whose opinions and points of view I do respect as I think the whole cable and high-end market is tragically over-priced by the way...) however, the truth is in the listening for me in my system (having nothing to do with what others should/do experience).

One key point that keeps hitting me squarely between the eyes about this thread though is that I see myriad references to real science, scientific method, etc...on this thread but when I read through everything carefully and objectively, I don't see real science or scientific method being utilized. I see scientific jargon being utilized to justify a point of view but little if any real science or hard test results being presented regarding cables good or bad .

***I will say for the record that I could be dead wrong in what I am perceiving here and my point of view so please know my intent in saying what I have here is not to offend anyone....

NoNoise....significant "differences" are moot.  What is important is whether there are significant "improvements."  Science says overpriced cables are just that.  Over priced, pretty, sparkly, fat, colorful and interesting...just not accoustically effective in my opinion.

Small differences may be worth it...but given the power of expectation bias, seems most would want some measure of effectiveness beyond the overstated claims of how "good it sounded.". 

I don't get it. To claim "scientific reality" as a point of view, and then state that there wasn't a "significant difference" belies the point being made.

Scientific reality would reveal the slightest of differences, and a difference is just that, a difference. To move on from that juncture, what constitutes slight to someone could be significant to someone else, especially to audiophiles who value such differences.

For me, once I've heard better, it's very hard to go back. It's in the very nature of audiophiles to want better, inch by inch if necessary. This is, after all, a ground game, and who wants to give up ground because someone else says the difference isn't worth it?

I think we're beyond the OP's value judgement argument and have progressed to simply some stating that small differences aren't worth it and I say that is simply untrue.

All the best,
Nonoise

Ctsooner: read your post and, unfortunately, find noting there that merits further response from me.  Sorry.

So you contradict yourself with your own statement of:

' And the ONLY measure of efficacy is extremely subjective - one's perception of what is being heard.'

Yes, perception. I use the term jaw dropping, because in my system that's what I hear as well as others in the house who had no clue that I installed said cables.  Also, I have no skin in the game and honestly, I paid more for my pair of Niagara that I'm about to list for sale.

You don't hear any difference and that's fine.  Let me know when you have heard MY system so you can make that statement as fact please. ha.

Yes, you point out scientific reality.  Have you measure the cables I'm personally using?  I know you haven't.  Maybe there aren't measurements available yet that show the differences. I personally don't know, nor do I care as I trust my ears.  Some of the differences in cables deals with how they shield interferrences, so how can you make a statement about scientific reality saying you can't hear a difference.  The reality is that over the years we've been able to take measurements that we couldn't in the past.  

I used to work in the gold industry selling product to the dental and jewelry industry.  The metallurgist was also a budding audiophile and we used to talk all the time about cable properties  and how it affects sound.  We discussed grain boundaries and grain size etc..  There are many differences in the metallurgy of these high end cables. Just because some folks who claim to be scientists come on threads like this and post as though their feelings are supported by science and therefore are the best opinion, are not correct as many of these designs are based on science and measurable.  That is a fact.

I'll just wait for your response telling me that your position is correct.  :)

for people that experience massive changes with cable changes, I'd like to do an experiment where i switch out the cables secretly to something far more modest and see if they notice.

kn: Thanks for the polite, well written explanation of how you view the efficacy of "expensive" audio cables.  I should have responded sooner but have been tied up with a whole list of distractions.

I think my overall point of view is that I've personally never noticed ANY significant difference in cables (once basic length/impedance is met). Yes, I currently use some Kimber/Wireworld products that did nothing that I could detect.  You'd have to agree that any "difference" cabling can make (good or bad) is going to be very subtle.  I don't know anybody who would agree that something "jaw-dropping" (a favorite here) is a subtle effect.

I also have trouble with this: The ONLY people who recommend/praise the positive effect of exotic (high priced) cables are those that manufacture, distribute, retail, install, review for compensation or, lastly, have purchased these products.  And the ONLY measure of efficacy is extremely subjective - one's perception of what is being heard.

People spend crazy amounts on lots of stuff...but a Rolex tells time well and makes a statement...a Bucati goes really fast while turning heads and definitely makes a statement.  Expensive cables, wires, ICs, PCs, USB/Ethernet cables and other digital connects, IMO, do nothing beyond what similar basic, good quality, inexpensive (eg: Monoprice) products do.  

Not trying to change anyone's mind...just pointing out scientific reality as I see it.

Yes the difference between the AQ Wild and WEL are the size of the teflon tubes and the absorption of electronic interference etc.... The lowered noise floor is so noticeable that I'm blown away.  I have NEVER been 'blown away' by any cable and I've had Odin's and the top Transparent in my system. For YEARS I owned what was the MIT top wire (the 350 interconnects and the 770 speaker cables) that they 'tuned' to my tube gear specifically.  

I'm used to using very good cabling in my systems.  Since I switched to AQ a few years ago, I"ve noticed positive differences.  They weren't modest, but they weren't 'blow me away'.  I never felt I should ever have to tune a system using wire. To me, that says I don't like the sound of my gear. I always listen to gear with lower priced cabling and go from there.  

I'm all about the neutral and for me, it will be nearly impossible to go backwards in my cabling.  

Dynaquest4

I will not attempt to change your mind about, well, anything. But I will use one of your statements to make a theoretical case for several ways cabling interacts with your whole system, and how that can be more rewarding with more accurate or revealing gear.

"Assuming that exotic cables do, in fact, cancel out or mitigate external influences that distort or otherwise modify pure audio signal transmission, it would seem that the more expensive your system, the less you would need cables and other interconnects to assuage these issues. But, no...it seems otherwise. The more you spend on your system components the more you need to spend on wire to cancel out these external influences. Interesting."

Assuming the quest of many audiophiles at one level is to come as close to faithful reproduction of the original recording as possible, then doing everything within budget and set up as possible would seem like an obvious goal. Cabling affects this pursuit in at least three ways.

1. Keep bad things away from the original signal. Bad "things" in the environment around your cables can come from several sources, devices in your home, building or neighborhood that emit electrical fields or interference, your systems own electronics, and its other cables that all come together behind your rack. Effectively keeping desired signals in their lane and interference out of their lane so the original signal arrives at its destination relatively unscathed is the goal here. This is one way good power cables can help, even though they are not purpose built to transmit any of your processed data. The better the original signal, the more rewarding the effective treatment of this problem.

2. Keep the cable itself from differentialy absorbing or only preserving some portion of the audible spectrum in your signal, or smearing the time signature of different elements in the audio signal. This is where the tone control idea comes in, and "better" cables keep this from happening to the greatest degree, I.E. they do not act as tone controls at all, allowing you for better or worse to hear what your electronics and speakers are trying to do. When you start hearing differences in room acoustics, production and the sound engineers choices, you are getting "the rest of the story".

3. Because different electronics and speakers have different output and input impedances, resistive loads, efficiencies, etc. not every cable will match well with every piece of gear, and so "bad" cable/gear match can reduce how effectively the above cable attributes are revealed in practice, so some thought and trial and error are in order to get the best results in cable choice.

OK, so why would expensive, well designed gear benefit at all from well designed cables? Well for starters, assume that better gear is generally producing more accurate signals out of the gate, and protecting these signals enhances the value, investment in, and enjoyment of better gear.

Also, your top end gear only reduces the need to address issues one and three above to the extent that each piece is not a significant source of electrical interference to the room or area where your cables are concentrated, or back into the power grid, and that your gear is not presenting odd loads or other electrical properties to the cabling, so protecting signals from intereference resulting from other sources in your listening room is still a valid goal, even if your gear is completely begnign in this regard (which it very likely is not).

And, regardless of how good the signal is when it leaves your gear, it has to get to the next piece of gear for processing intact. If the cabling absorbs any of the very expensive and accurate signal you are generating, I am going to go out on a limb and say that’s BAD.

So in summary, the better the gear, the better and more information rich the signal (analog or digital), and the better you should be able to notice when some of it is left behind of suffers some artifact in transit, or when such problem is corrected. To the extent that a user wants certain artifacts because they find that pleasing, then cables can be a part of "tuning" any system to the extent that they may be better at passing one or more signal elements relative some other cable.

I hear a difference as a result of all these processes operating in each of my systems. And my better gear sounds better to me with different and often but not always more expensive and sophisticated wires in between. But what is really remarkable is how good some very inexpensive gear can sound with better designed and implemented cables (not always... in some cases it just sounds... really inexpensive). While this does not pencil out for the average user, the results can be quit shocking, and can demonstrate just how universal the the properties above apply, and how well-designed some inexpensive equipment really is. Just my experience here, YMMV a lot.

kn

Buck, there are three types of audiophile for the most part.  Those who love the music and use the equipment to listen with the best possibly enjoyment.  Those who love equipment and listen to music to show off their systems (according to many in the industry, this may make up about 60% or more).  Third are those (me) who love both and will listen to anything they are in the mood for, but on occasion will listen to 'audiophile' pressings to show off what their systems can do.

I was just sent a pair of Audioquest Horizon balanced interconnects and a piece of their Diamond USB cable. I have always loved the Diamond as it makes a huge difference to MY EAR IN MY SYSTEM.  

I have been running an AQ Niagara interconnect, which for it's price range is an outstanding value (if you believe cable makes a difference).  The Horizon was the precursor to the top of the line WEL cable.  I was in shock at what i've been hearing this weekend. The Horizon just does EVERYTHING better.  It doesn't change the tone or anything, but the system just sounds so much better.  

My wife doesn't give a crap about audio.  She just likes music and will go to many concerts with me from rock to blues to jazz to...  I never tell her what I've done or haven't done to the system, but she stopped me dead in my tracks after I changed the cables and asked what I did.  She had no idea I had them and didn't see me do anything to the system.  When she asked me, I asked her why.  She said it just sounds like the Joe Bonamassa concert I took her to at Carnegie Hall last Jan for my birthday.  They recorded it and just released it on Blueray and Tidal is streaming it (acoustic).  She said the instruments sound like they did that night and that should could almost feel Tina Guo in the room (Google her as she's a GREAT cellist).  

I audition a lot of gear. I have left cables for last to be honest and for good reason. They make a difference, but often taking the cost and upgrading a component makes a larger difference.  When stepping up to this level of cable, I was shocked that in a system like mine, it make such a difference.  If I had to pay full price, I could not afford a cable like this, but as I've stated, there is a point in a line where you get their best 'value' in a component or cable.  I felt for years the Niagara or it's similar cable was that point and I believe it still is today, but I will not be selling these Horizon cables for a long time, if forever.  I feel blessed to own them.  Oh, the diamond going from my server to the DAC is equally as good and makes a full component difference for me from the Carbon that it's often compared to.  JMHO

Why?

andrew9405225 posts12-29-2016 3:59amCable threads, without question, are the most entertaining in the forums.

Dang, I was just about to go on holiday when I discovered another cable thread. Oh well, next year I won't read forums prior to the holidays.

Those who can afford them, swear by them.
Those who can't, do without.
Those who can, swear they can hear the differences.
Those who can't, can't really care.

And hasn't this issue been beat to a pulp enough?  It really starts taking on the appearance of an addiction to an odd form of conflict, a variant of 'he said/she said' with no end in sight or mind....

MHO...enjoy yourselves, I guess...;)

Warren Buffet's cables?  I dunno - does he use the ones that are spares for his Bugatti Vayron?  You know, that car with the $25K tires (or $60K tyres, depending upon which link in your Google search you click.  Both apparently still need the $70K mounting process that can only be done in France...).

Sorry, couldn't resist.  So much for $15K tires or lipstick on the proverbial Pigg.  They apparently do exist - who'd a thunk it?

I guess the only question about stuff like speaker cable that I'd still have after all this (or the limited amount of this thread that I could read) is just how old is everyone who's measuring and commenting?  From what I was taught way back when, hearing acuity typically starts to decline after age 50 (but that can start as early as ~30) and by age 60 or so it is likely to be just a fraction of what a teenager can distinguish.  If you can hear the difference then the choice is yours - all that stuff really is everyone's free choice (and budget).  I know that for myself I had to face reality and admit that aging has likely had an impact.  Once I stopped pouting I (finally!) figured that meant I could save on a few such "luxury" expenditures and target more for our community - I still pout occasionally but I can live with that choice.  

What cables does Warren Buffett use?

Shadorne - I understand how you feel. I can now see how picking up one of those Denons of yours can make cables become less relevant. I can see how they remove colorations as well. We all learn every day and I guess today is my day to learn. 
Thank you 

A great cable should be totally invisible when dealing with the signal. That's the problem with most cables.  They seem to have their own signature and this is why some use them to 'tune' their systems.  This is the biggest reason I have switched over to AQ cables.  I have had the MIT, Transparent, Nordost, Wireworld, Kimber, Cardas and so many more in the systems and have only really liked the AQ cables.  Again, my ear, but they seem to be the most neutral up and down the line. Right now I use the balanced Niagara interconnect between my Ayre QX5/20 and Ayre AX5/20.  I am using a generic UBS between the server and the DAC. I run an 8' length of Castlerock internal bi wired between the amp and the Vandersteen Quatro's.  

A friend sent me a pair of AQ Horizon's (the same as the top of the line WEL) that are silver along with my favorite USB the AQ Diamond.  I have had the diamond in and out of the system in the past and it makes a HUGE difference. As much to me as a double component upgrade.  The stock USB Belkin sucks.  I hate it.  It will be interesting to hear what the Horizon will sound like in my system.  I have heard the WBYonder a few times and felt that with so much silver, it really was musical and sounded like the components were almost hard wired to each other.  I felt it was that good, but couldn't afford it and if I could, I think I'd have put that money towards better electronics.  

I only have one audiophile cord in the system and it made a little difference.  Not enough for me to go out and buy expensive cords for everything also (the cord is a TOL Basis power cord that was given to me to try out).  I have found a bigger power difference by putting a Synergistic Research Powercell 10/Tesla into the rack (selling said unit) and now an AQ Niagara power unit.

These both lower the noise floor so much that you can hear the micro and macro details so much easier.  I'm floored by how much these units work. I also like the Denali conditioner.

To address folks who say wealthy people can afford a specific cable so it's not a big deal, I promise you it is. I am friends with many who own the 62k Vandersteen 7's with TOL component and cables.  Most of them can afford whatever they want, but like me, they audition products and figure if they are worth it.  Not just giving better sound (not just different sound) and is the cost/return worth it.  No different than many of us who will never afford those types of systems.  Incremental differences are personal choices and there is no right or wrong.  The market IS there so those engineers who say folks are hoodwinked make me laugh as they come across as always being correct, when in fact they are not correct based on the market for these high end cables.  You can't hoodwink that many folks who do audition products and most buy what sounds best for them and don't bother reading the boards.

That is based on sales.

Don’t be a hater. Be a lover. Yeah! Embrace the void! "But first...are you...experienced?" 😄

@fsmithjack   

No disrespect but not everyone wants a system like yours. I am interested in accurately producing the source music without having to dust the room to get the system to work properly. I don't want to have to be concerned about the coloration of cables. I also like realistic sound - so the speakers need to be more linear in performance than a typical car audio whizzer cone.

You can never tell the difference in cables if your system or the dealers is crap and not resolving enough. No disrespect but it is what it is. I don’t care what the retail price is - my system with those cables being swapped out would smack the listener right in the mouth. It’s not someone’s ears and/or the ability to tell a little differences. To the contrary it’s pretty simple when you get smacked in the mouth you know it. Not much blind testing needed for that. Whamm - smack - "oh ok - I see what you mean now". Simple simple stuff. The Audioquest were most likely Chinese knock offs but no matter - even those are way better and will be heard x 10000 in my system. I dust the room and after you can hear a difference are you kidding me. $5k cables that’s a ton of money because I have owned plenty of $5k cables but never paid that. I bought/own HIDiamond D8 with nice Furutech locking banana’s and they were a nice upgrade over my PAD cables. My Upper model PAD were over $6k new I paid $1500 used for them. My HiDiamonds were $3,200 and I paid $1,000 plus my PAD cables. I’m a guy that likes buy top quality stuff slightly Preowned or Demo at around 40% to 70% off retail. It’s just too expensive to buy everything new. Who does that? Well I know a lot do but I don’t. That said, to name just a few I’ve had Cardas Golden Reference - Cardas Golden Cross - High end PAD cables - name too annoying to remember Provo revision 3 this or that and many other but all are a thousand times better than cheap basic crap cable. Heck my first great cable upgrade was a pair I still own today in a box in my basement somewhere - Audioquest Type 4 and those were a thousand times better than the typical copper looking on one said and silver on the other kind total crap you get from RadioShack. You could put Audioquest Type 4 in a Home Theater in a box and hear it for s--- sake. That stuff is pure crap and sounds like pure crap and anyone that’s says different is full of crap or there system is total crap or they are just clueless - no offense. I did not read all posts but if someone - anyone says cable doesn’t matter they are probably right because their system is so dull sounding and lifeless it doesn’t matter or the room interaction is just so horrid but they matter and a ton but the rest of the gear needs to corespond. If your spending $5k on cable you best have $15k in amplification and pre - $15k in a source and transport - $15k in speakers and $15k in power cables, Condition and IC’s or it’s a waste. Resolution brother it’s all about resolution. Spend $1,200 on a quality used pair like some Audience AU24SE or Cardas Reference something or another if you have only a little money then get some Audioquest Type 4 for $150 but don’t use that crap. No the power cable doesn’t matter on a VHS player with that I agree. The triple blind test is crap! Please excuse the mad Type-o’s texting while driving is kind of tough :)

I totally disagree. I have bought blue jeans cable and several high end brands 
Not all are worth  the extra Mark up.
I have found Silnote to have dome exceptional aufio cables .
And refinement, as well as nsturalness do found.
If you have any Ear st all just throwing a new cable in cold is not sound st all
The cable - circuit needs to reengergize  and stabilize,  if you just put in a new cable and play the scrappy cable bass big advantage .the scrappy cable will have minimal change,  the hood cable gets more refined .
Power cords also can make a profound improvement, but some engineers 
Say wire us wire.  Fuses are another item that is cumulative . 
Just look st metals resistance index high number the better ,silver,Copper 
High 60s, steel 8.  Bottle neck . Wire flow of electrons  their geometries 
Can and do dictate the sound,as well as types of metals ,shielding .
It can be very complicated.  All cables sound the same year may be in a cheaper 
Non resolving system but not a  quality well thought out aufio system .
I ran a audio store and ran Many experiments blind tests with several testers 
Some times ,not always their can be a profound difference . 
Just as in a Loudspeaker crossover  capacitors are not all the same quality 
Or character. Look st Humblehomemade high capacitor test . I have followed this for over 12 years very accurate . I have spent 35 plus years doing it all in Audio.
Believe what you will .dome people are do cheap they just cannot justify cables 
Can make that much of s difference. I sold s $50k system to a man who had 
600 worth of cable . I challenged him to take Th labs bedt cables home and power cords listen for a week compare yours. If it is better you buy them .he refused 
He  could not justify spending any more money . I just shook my head .
Penny wise pound foolish. 

sigh......these threads are like......https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfBG0d5Oj3c

My dear @dynaquest4 may I assay an attempt to make a case for "expensive" cables while working within the logical framework you ascribe to

If we accept that fancy cables are nothing other than tone controls (I don't believe this btw) then it still may be a sensible value proposition for someone with say a $500K system to drop $5K on such a cable if they want to tailor/change the sound of their system in some way while minimizing any negative affects on other aspects of the system performance (as the introduction of an active tone control would surely do).  In that context $5K may be a very cost effective and high value way of tailoring the sound in a way you want. In fact many cable manufacturers (e.g. Synergistic with their bullets, MIT with their adjustments etc) provide tools to do just this as part of the cable design.

The audiophile with a $500K system will already have worked on the room and all the other things you discuss so a cable change is often one of the best ways of adjusting the sound if needed. Achieving the same changes via swapping the speakers or amps would cost much more, and you may well like other things the amps and speakers do just as well and not want to change them

Presumably you have no problem thinking that their are differences between different $100K speakers and that audiophiles may have a preference for one over another -- why not allow us to see value in doing the same with cables as well

Finally if you accept this logic then it works in reverse -- you could just as well select the cables first and then build the mix of active components around them to suit ... 😏

geoff:  settle down, my friend, no one is putting words in your mouth.  I was just attempting to clarify your vague reference to the benefit of more expensive cables.

cleeds....no need for name calling;  though we had gotten past that.  If you believe my point of view is merely disruptive, I'd suggest you just refrain from answering or addressing my future posts.

Pricing/Quality/Value in marketing: "...as years and years of research have shown, pricing is a strong psychological component which can manipulate customer’s decision making. Keep the pricing high, and the customer will think that the quality must be high too. This expectation of the customer is because he wants to receive value for his money. So when he is paying more money, he is expecting more value. And you are better off giving him a high quality product."

That is my issue with expensive wiring.  High pricing gives you the expectation of high quality and therefore a good value.  Except the high priced cables do nothing to improve audio signal transmission as proven by science.  So unless it's the "look" you are after, you are purchasing a poor value.  I think I've said this three times already so no need to repeat it again after this.

 
dynaquest4
Well, geoff, are you saying that cables actually and actively "change" the audio signal. Who would want that? Good audio equipment should neither add nor take away anything from the audio signal. If you want to modify the sound coming from your speakers or the pressure waves reaching your ears, use EQ or modify the acoustic qualities of your listening area.

>>>>No, I'm not saying that. Stop putting words in my mouth!


dynaquest4
If expensive aftermarket cables, are made to approach perfection in audio transmission, wouldn't perfection be doing nothing to the signal while preventing any outside influence from changing the signal?

>>>>You said it, not me. Are you answering your own questions now?

dynaquest4

For cleeds: Value is a mathematical formula; to wit: Value = Quality / Price.  The only thing somewhat subjective is quality...but that still has nothing to do with your bank roll.  People with more money are just less impacted by purchasing a poor value

You could not be more mistaken, and this thread proves it. Value is most definitely a subjective evaluation. To return to your car analogy, some people buy a Honda, some a Toyota; some buy a BMW, some buy an Audi. Clearly, those buyers are using different criteria to establish value, as I would expect. After all, value is very much subjective.

To return to audio: Audiophiles comprise a tiny percentage of the consumer electronics market. Why is that? It's because most consumers don't see the value in owning high-end audio equipment. That in no way diminishes the value of high-end audio to those who cherish it any more that it suggests that those not interested in high-end audio are mistaken.

You apparently don't see the value in a $5,000 audio cable, and that's fine. You're not mistaken any more than those who disagree with you are mistaken. Your refusal to understand that suggests  that others here might have been correct when they identified you as a troll.

Well, geoff, are you saying that cables actually and actively "change" the audio signal.  Who would want that?  Good audio equipment should neither add nor take away anything from the audio signal.  If you want to modify the sound coming from your speakers or the pressure waves reaching your ears, use EQ or modify the acoustic qualities of your listening area.

If expensive aftermarket cables, are made to approach perfection in audio transmission, wouldn't perfection be doing nothing to the signal while preventing any outside influence from changing the signal?

If you buy these as bling to please your eyes and impress your friends, then I get that.  That has value....just like a Rolex.

For cleeds: Value is a mathematical formula; to wit: Value = Quality / Price.  The only thing somewhat subjective is quality...but that still has nothing to do with your bank roll.  People with more money are just less impacted by purchasing a poor value.

dynaquest4
Assuming that exotic cables do, in fact, cancel out or mitigate external influences that distort or otherwise modify pure audio signal transmission, it would seem that the more expensive your system, the less you would need cables and other interconnects to assuage these issues. But, no...it seems otherwise. The more you spend on your system components the more you need to spend on wire to cancel out these external influences. Interesting.

But no one is saying that (only) exotic cables cancel out or mitigate external influences or that that's the reason exotic cables are better. Therefore I suggest gently placing your assertion in the Strawman argument basket.

dynaquest4

... one poster continues to push the theory that the more affluent you are the less spending matters.  That is BS.  Whether cables actually work or not or whether they are a good value are not has nothing to do with your bank account.  It they do nothing, they are a poor value.  Affluence does not excuse poor judgement ...

You're engaging in circular reasoning here. The value of something is often a subjective determination so, yes, relative affluence could be an influencing factor.

I used two 20ft pieces of Mogami Blue Neglex connected to my pair of KLH Nines for 25 years. Truly excellent sound and NO urge to change! The cost - $1 a foot!

Assuming that exotic cables do, in fact, cancel out or mitigate external influences that distort or otherwise modify pure audio signal transmission, it would seem that the more expensive your system, the less you would need  cables and other interconnects to assuage these issues.  But, no...it seems otherwise.  The more you spend on your system components the more you need to spend on wire to cancel out these external influences.  Interesting.

Also, one poster continues to push the theory that the more affluent you are the less spending matters.  That is BS.  Whether cables actually work or not or whether they are a good value are not has nothing to do with your bank account.  It they do nothing, they are a poor value.  Affluence does not excuse poor judgement.

I hate to judge before all the facts are in but I kind of doubt anybody with a modest system is springing for uber expensive cables or power cords. Those are for the big boys, the ones with big expensive systems. Of course most of us want bang for the buck.

Of course it won’t turn a BMW into a Ferarri. You have to do everything right. That’s why the ordinary audiophile dude won’t benefit too much from expensive cables or expensive anything in a system that’s not worthy. But in some systems, then you will see the Ferarri. Remember those little VWs with the aftermarket Rolls Royce grill? They didn't really drive like a Rolls Royce.