Who is ditching their shiny disc spinners?
Me, I’ve ditched my spinner. I still buy CD’s though, just to RIP them to my NAS drive, which is a RAID array, so built in backup. The sound quality from the CD RIP via my optimised Ethernet network to my Bricasti M5 streamer to the DAC is in a different league to the same CD played directly on a £2000 CD player. |
Hard drives crash and you can't back up everything. Cloud services change owners or even worse just vanish. Meanwhile, I have a radio station's worth of CDs, SACDs, some vinyl and an OPPO and Onyko for the digital and a Music Hall turntable for the vinyl. Some might call holding onto physical media being foolish but I prefer the peace of mind it gives. In fact, if I could go back and not dump my original vinyl collection and turntable, I would. But best of all, if my wife outlives me, it'll give her something to sell. |
Why would you want to create a computer file when you already own the CD? I cannot see any advantages other than a saving in rack space. 99% of all the music I listen to is on CD or SACD, and I cannot see the point of converting them to computer files or ditching my CD player. Although I do own a Bluesound Node 2i and I have a few FLAC files stored on its USB drive, this is limited to music that is not available on CD. So far I have only used 12GB from a 128GB USB drive and although it sounds reasonably good it is nowhere near as good as music played on the CD player. |
@orgillian197 Of course you can backup everything. If you keep multiple copies it is a very, very low risk that you will lose it. I like to have one or two hard drives and a cloud based backup. If the cloud goes out of business I still have my hard drives and can upload everything to another provider. Or if my house burns down I still have the cloud backup (but maybe no stereo to play anything on anymore). |
My CD collection is a lifetime's work- a lot bought at concerts and workshops- having to scroll through a screen is an anathema to me- the whole world is full of zombies with earbuds staring at a little glass tablet or spending their day in front of a screen only to come home to he same (or worse be at home all day in front of one as well). What's so hard about using a CD? My Discmaster is still going strong and is a joy to use with the top opening glass lid and magnetic puck. I have a back-up collection of CD players and DACs should the worst happen. Also a mistrust in placing my custom with streaming services. Discovering new music used to be about listening to the radio with a pen and paper and talking to fellow music lovers, even reding one of those book things or a magazine, not relying on algorithms. |
I sold all my CDs, except for remasters and hard-to-find. I'm now 90+% Amazon Music HD and the rest ripped CDs. So I stream from either an Echo device or my laptop through a
S.M.S.L Sanskrit 10th MK II DAC. Go to Audio Science Review to see distortion specs on DACs. You don't have to spend a lot to reach well below audible distortion levels. |
I just grabbed a Innuous Zenith, but haven't yet bought a HiFi CDP. I honestly don't really desire getting one with the plan to used the 2TB hard drive of the Zenith. Innuous Zenith --> Gustard X26 Pro --> Rotel 1590MK2 --> Monoblock Azure 851w --> JBL L100 75th Anniversary (w/dual Kef Kube 12b) But 100% not giving up my 2,000+ CD's. It would make my wife happy though I'm sure. |
Several years ago, I ripped my CD collection (about 10,000 tracks) to an Innous Zenith MKII streamer. It took me a while! I retired my McIntosh CD player and haven’t looked back. I’ve had no issues playing FLAC, DSD, and streaming via the Zenith to a Matrix x-SPDIF 2 to my DirectStream DAC. I’ve got a decent system and love the way it sounds. I’m finished buying stereo equipment and physical media. The convenience of having so much quality sounding music at my fingertips was worth the trouble of ripping my collection to FLAC. On rare occasion, I’ll record one of my old school albums (that you can’t find on-line) to my media laptop, burn a CD, and store it on the Zenith. I even went so far as to record a couple of reels that I made back in the 80’s to a computer, burned them to CD, and stored them on the Zenith. Being able to create custom Roon playlists from Tidal, Qobuz, or anything on the Zenith is pretty neat. I’m 73. At this point in my life, I'm just trying to enjoy the music! |
Having spent more time and money building a digital music library and a streaming workflow than I care to admit, I'm now thrilled to have "gone back" to CDs. I had a small collection of about a hundred discs, so I never really left them to begin with, but I was on the verge of doing so, having been seduced by the ease of storage and supposedly better sound quality of lossless digital. Eventually, I realized just the opposite is true. Myself and many others are finding overall CD sound quality to be superior to that of FLAC, ALAC, etc., but not by the numbers, not by any technical assessment, and only if you have quality equipment that can bring out what's really on your discs. Plenty has been written about this and I don't want to hijack the OP's post for another long winded debate. For me, the other joy of CDs is what vinyl fans have known for a long time. There is nothing better than sitting on the floor with some friends and wading through a music collection, taking time to enjoy the liner notes and artwork, and playing an album through from start to finish. In fact, I set up my listening space with exactly that in mind. My humble compact disc collection has doubled in size over the last year. I also upgraded one of my old Sony players, and a good one it was, to a Music Hall player that also serves as a stand alone DAC. At the same time, I've downloaded some singles here and there, which is the real value of digital music for me - when I'm not excited about the entire album, I can buy just a few. Because I purchase most of my CDs through places like Bandcamp, I always have free access to an album's lossless files for those times when I want to listen during business hours at my workstation. Some of those files get downloaded to my hard drive, some I just stream with my iPhone with the app. I really think there's a place for both CDs and digital downloads in this world. Vinyl, on the other hand, well, no thank you. It has its moments, but they're too few and far between for me. Good luck, and enjoy the music! |
Personally I doubled down on a better CDP in the last few months simply because CDs are such good value now compared to vinyl. I am one of those folks who likes to choose the right tool for the job - so I maintain streaming setups and spin vinyl as well, but wouldn't just abandon one format for another. |
Assuming that you do a proper job of ripping and storing and backing up your files, I would spend the money on a better DAC instead of a player. I've ripped all of my CDs (around 5,000) to WAV files. The issue is adding to your collection. Will you be adding CDs (need for a ripper) or downloading files or streaming to get new content? A lot of content that is available for streaming is not of high quality; much has been actually re-mastered to lower the dynamic range to makes it better for listening in high noise environment such as in the car or through earbuds while in public, or because a lot of people actually like "loud" music. If you are diligent, you can actually find older CDs or specialty re-issues that are superior in sound to what is streamed to you. I continue to add to my CD collection, which means doing some ripping and storing the content. For that, I have a ripper that has an 5TB built in hard drive. |
For my it is now and always be about the music snd any way I can get it. I never want to eliminate any of the access I can use. I will always look to add the new as additional options but will never take one step backward. This is why I still have my Nakamichi cassette deck up and running. There are times I just want to put a tape in and kick back, not always the critical sound I want but still has that mellow relaxed sound. Remember it is about the music so always look forward but don’t close any doors behind you. |
I think that like most of the discussions on this site there is no correct answer, just preferences. I grew up in the late 60s where vinyl was the only option. Now I am one of the youngish baby boomers who loves the physical aspect of the CD disks, and although I sometimes stream for headphones, my primary focused listening is to different CD types through a tube-based system (Esoteric K-01XD player (with external Cybershaft clock) >Luxman Cl1000 preamp>ARC 250SE amps>Wilson Audio Sasha DAW speakers). |
I just purchased a new CD player last week (Marantz cd 6007) it made my CD collection sing again. I have been streaming Tidal and just recently Qobuz.I must say when comparing the two ( streaming to CD player) I am hearing a bit more from the CD player. I have about 60 CD's so I will keep listening and comparing. |
I still am buying CD's I don't follow trends, I've burned some discs to USB and played them back and the CD always sounded better, and I still like holding a disc. I have neither the time nor care to burning 1,300 CDs and god knows how many songs so I can sit with a tablet in my hand had to pick a song to play. I know it's cool though and different, but hey I still know why a preamp sounds better than using the volume control on my Esoteric SACD player. |
Like everything in forums like this, this is just an opinion... a preference. So, please don't get your shorts or panties in a twist! I haven't read all the the responses/comments in this thread. However, I have to say I am solidly in the camp of the folks who like to have a library of music that can be accessed by simply moving one's butt off the couch or sweet spot and choosing something to listen to. I've got somewhere around 2 or 3 hundred vinyl LPs and 4 or 5 hundred CDs. I used to have some music on reel-to-reel tape, too, but got rid of that some years back after my reel-to-reel deck gave up the ghost. I've reached a point in my life where I don't buy near as much music as I used to when I was much younger, simply because much of what's out there nowadays doesn't move me to the point of wanting to buy it. I like a lot of it but music from the 50s through the early to mid-90s is what I listen to most. I also have a fair collection of re-pressings and recordings from of 40s music and a fair collection of Classical. Having a record jacket, liner notes, cover art work, CD liner notes, etc. in your hands to peruse or share with guests without having to pass your laptop or IPAD around is also something I like. I spent an afternoon in a high end audio shop recently, using a Bluesound Node and that was really cool and very convenient! Sound quality on the system I was using at the time was, also, remarkably good! That got me seriously thinking about streaming. The sheer convenience of being able to call up or dial in ALMOST ANYTHING you want to hear with a few clicks, without leaving the couch, was fantastic! However, after doing a little research on the monthly & annual cost(s) of a quality streaming service(s), I was put off. I just don't like the idea of chaining myself to yet another monthly bill, like cable or satellite, that you know is going to go up, year after year, after year. And you know, sooner or later, there'll be some software upgrade you'll have to get or buy or download or whatever, right? If quality high-resolution music streaming costs were CONSIDERABLY less, I just might change my tune. I can fully appreciate the cost-effectiveness of streaming for folks who prefer to buy only selective cuts, as opposed to entire works or albums, and for folks who buy or we're buying a lot of music on an annual basis. As someone pointed out, though, what happens when you've ripped or stored music you want to own or keep on some sort of electronic device when that device fails? I know there are various backup methods but isn't that an additional expense or investment? Another factor, for me, is digital audio versus analog. I have yet to hear anything in the digital medium I prefer or like as much as well-recorded, well-engineered vinyl; providing, of course, one is using a good turntable, good cartridge, etc., etc. Again, just an opinion, a preference, what floats my boat. I guess I've turned into my father! Gotta say, though, the technology is improving all the time. The real question is: when it gets there, will mere mortals be able to afford it? |
I have some CDs I don't sell, due to good sound (Like Dr John plays the Duke) or if they are unavailable or special. Also, my SACDs, that I occasionally play on an Oppo player. But mostly, I play from CDs copied to my hard disk. I have had few problems after I installed ethernet cabling from my main pc server down to the listening room, with a Teac nt-505 that works well as a combined dac/streamer solution. It is easy to play the CDs I have copied to my hard disk, and stream from the main services. However, in my system, vinyl rules (all else equal). I won't sell my LP collection, even though I have recorded the best LPs to digital (DSD), and they sound very good, compared to streaming and CDs. Some people find that with DSD there is virtually no difference from playing the vinyl direct. In my system (somewhat sadly), there is. Direct analog playback rules. But then, I have invested much more in my analog playback chain, than in my digital chain. |
My go to for CDs is a fully loaded Pioneer PD-F1009 300 + 1 unit. This thing is for outdoor listening with adult beverage and a cigar, for parties out by the pool, etc. It runs 1 bit DLC, has no other DAC and well, it feeds a mini-monster 120 w Pioneer and 4 Polk atrium 7s. Get compliments on this all the time. No plans to replace anytime soon! |
I made the decision to go to streaming. My CD player was broken. I gave up records long ago. It simply would cost too much to do all three media right. I find streaming to sound good. I spent about $1100 on a DAC and streamer. Big debate about buying higher end streamers and DACs. The Audio GD is all the rage lately. Denafrips Pontus, Audio Mirror are also good examples. So there are flavors AKA tubes. |
@johnspain I can relate, but I tried out the X45 and found it very interesting. I did not like the fit and finish too much, but did like main features - a biggie for me is simple access to “network shares” vs a requirement for a UPNP server running in yet another computer, or one that can run on the NAS (Minimserver is always recommended) but that makes a tosses salad of my music library… I’m testing the rave-reviewed Technics SL-G700 right now and the souls is quite good playing SACD/CD and streaming, but the controls are dismal - the app, remote control and tiny display all do disjointed things. And the thing here is getting any support is absent. Since it was an open-box unit it was an acceptable price-point, but is likely going back. This seems to be the state of the industry- disjointed, over-priced and disappointing. So I’m a “John’s pain” member also 😳 |
I'm from a vintage of when CD's took off in the mid 80's. The CD was a God send to the hifi music listening community. I adopted well and even sold off my LP's by 1987, built up much of my CD collection via Columbia House by keeping on resigning up for those 11 discs for $1 sort of thing. I fell back into vinyl in 2003 and went all in bananas, almost stopped listening to my CD's except for the car. I spent, cough cough pi$$ed away, way too much money riding the vinyl LP addiction I had. This realization that I was only buying LP's for sake of buying discs ( especially used) as all too many sat on shelves not really being played, coupled with now my mental math of the THOUSANDS of $$$$ I was spending on turntables, cartridges, phono preamps and cleaning gear/ machines, hit me hard mentally. I saw that I was just listening to gear and not music. From 2003 till 2019 I was ga ga on vinyl but the guilt of all the money I spent and most pi$$ed away hit me like a switch and turned me off my vinyl. I also pulled my out near 300 CD's I had siting and collecting dust in big CD binders and put them back into the jewel cases and on my software shelving. I began to thumb through the discs and played them on my current A/V set up and low an behold THEY SOUNDED FANTASTIC!. It was a refound pleasure of CD's I had ignored again accept for car playback since 2003. The ease of just placing a CD in one of my 3 players ( classic Philips CD -101, Oppo BDP-83 and Panasonic DVD Recorder) to then sit down and with a remote hit PLAY was so enamouring to me now. Out of essentially pure silence music flowed through my current A/V set up. Where as I for 18+ years chased to make my LP's sound clean and click free (never truly possible) as well as the effort to just spin an LP was yes for many years what I called it a ritual, became tiring when would switch from a CD to an LP. As cool as it was for many years to play LP's I did realize once I got back in to playing my CD's on my home system that when listening to LP's I always new I was listening to a vinyl record, no matter how clean and click free it was. But when listening to my CD's I found I was just listening to music. Now one can stream digital audio and get quality playback too, but again I am from a vintage of OWNING STUFF! Touchy feely things. The enjoyment of looking through my shelf of CD's and deciding which to pull out and play along with the CD booklet (some are very detailed other just slip sheets) sitting back in my seat a beverage in hand and just listening for what 45-60-80 minutes of uninterrupted music has become now my enjoyment, as when it was I bought my first CD player and CD's in 1984. So yes, for me I want to keep doing this and when I want to, just buy CD's when desiring to, to add to my collection. I may stream music when personally listening through headphones on my smart phone but at home I want the TOUCHY FEELY AND PRIDE OF OWNERSHIP! |
Never, for what?? I would never replace them for streamed/downloaded compressed re-issued stuffed, good for car/ipod/background music. Just look at these three compression comparisons of the same album https://forum.audiogon.com/posts/2216248 Now see if you can ditch your cd's and players Cheers George |
If one were to get a CD player, what would be recommended at the 1-2k price range? I would prefer transport so I could use an external DAC, but what is everyone using to listen to their CD's now a days in the HiFi world? CDP's are the just one of many things I've yet to check out in HiFi, I did go all in on the streamer already with my Innuous Zenith MK3 (arriving this week). Obviously I have tons to look into, but any suggestions would help. My current DAC is the Gustard X26 Pro, which I do enjoy as a reference for sound. |
Retired and happy to stick with the humble CD they sound Ok to me in my Naim CD555DR. Nothing wrong with that Naim, about as good as you’ll get for a one box player, best Multibit R2R dac chip, with last best HDCD chip and the transport’s no slouch either, but the laser will be a problem come replacement time. R2R Dac-PCM1704 – HDCD-PMD200 Laser- Philips CD-Pro 2M Cheers George |
Oh man, physical music collections are so quaint. Roon with Tidal and Qobuz let me explore new music EVERY DAY. My musical knowledge is growing so quickly these days. New, old, whatever. Incredible sound quality if you invest in a good digital setup. Why would I want to be a slave to my very finite collection? Sometimes I listen to random tracks, sometimes whole albums, it’s all good! Bonus feature: a lot less non-recyclable plastic garbage in my house. |
And they sound better than that compressed stuff that’s streamed or downloaded, but hey your right, it is good for ipods/earphones/car/ and background dinner music (remember "dynamics" if you have no quite notes you can’t have any loud notes to startle you) https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/cd-quality-versus-streaming-quality/post?postid=2216248#22162... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ&ab_channel=MattMayfieldMusic Cheers George |
No I still love albums, cds, and sacds. It gives me pride of ownership, something tangible. I’ve ripped cds and bought digital files and they don’t seem to sound the same. It’s probably me. Also I find myself not playing them as often. That being said, my preparations for the future have been to go with a separate transport and DAC. With my McIntosh MCT 500 transport I can also play usb files, just plug in a flash drive loaded with dsd files or whatever. So that make me happy. |
Sounds like you upgraded your system and can hear the difference. CD? Haven't played one in years. Look at what CD players are trying to do. Upsample, refilter, balanced DACs. Everything to get over the shortcomings of the media. If you rip your LPs to 192/24+ your bit perfect jitter free hard drive will make you much happier. |
Well, I guess we’ve settled that 😁 I’m with those here who use streaming as a discovery tool, not for critical listening. Might change for me with a better DAC. Just not convinced a new spinner will have an onboard DAC as good as I can get stand-alone. Maybe I do that and hang onto the Oppo for a transport. I’m also with those here who like their physical media. More LP than CD … album art, liner notes, etc just SOOO much better (and easier on old eyes) 😁. But still … sigh … |
As with the LPs, I have retained about 100 high quality audiophile import CDs that would be hard to replace. Even so, I listen to the music as downloaded in my iMac. Played via Roon, I believe that the download sounds better. It's just a matter of time until I dump the CDs as I am extremely pleased with my RME DAC. |
I have the same music server and I ripped all 175 of my CD collection and with help from Bluesound transferred it to my laptop with the corrections to digital data the Vault 2i did. I rearranged my library into folders, one for each composer and in alphabetical order, because the 2i lists by "songs" and "artists" whoever ever might be listed as the performer and since I never listen to pop music the way the 2i files it so does not work for me. I connected the 2i to a vintage MSB Platinum but I kept my Oppo SACD player for a small collection of SACS's that are 5 channel because there is no other way to play 5 channels other than the 5 RCA outputs of a disc player. |
If you no longer need your cd's and plan to buy no more, sell the Oppo and invest in the best dac/streamer you can find. However the Oppo is a respectable and reliable CD/SACD/DVD-Audio/DVD-video) player and might be worth keeping it. Currently still sells around $850. Personal choice. Personally, I have such a large CD/SACD collection that I will never transfer them, so it is a no-brainer in the other direction. |
I have only heard Streamers as a Source in the Systems of others. The systems I have heard them in are able to play both Vinyl and CD as a Source. I have heard a Streamer with a Value of £5000 in a system worth approx' £100 000 and compared it to a Vinyl Source during the demonstration. The systems in use are a result of a long term commitment and built up with the intention of being an end game collection. In a few Systems I have heard various DAC's in use for comparisons, with the purpose of creating A/B demonstrations within the local HiFi Group. DAC > Streamer, DAC > CD and Vinyl are used to compare the Music Selected. Note: All demonstrations are short duration so the observations will usually show the obvious differences and assist with showing a Source that is the most attractive at that present time. To date I have not discovered a Streamer as a Source that offer the positive impression and Sound Quality a CD or Vinyl Source can offer. I have selected a PS Audio Memory Player > DAC for my Digital Media replays. Beyond the personal experiences I have with listening to a Streamer as Source, I do not see any reason not to incorporate one into a System, there is a vast access to music at ones finger tips, that can be replayed at acceptable sound qualities for listening to music in general. Being the cheapskate that I can be I accept an even more diminished SQ and use Alexa for the same experience, having an abundance of music available with ease of accessibility. A visit to a Thread 'what Vinyl / CD are you playing' will allow Alexa to show the adeptness at retrieving the Artist to be auditioned. Using Alexa has helped myself produce a substantial list of Artists to investigate and a lengthy shortlist of Albums to seek out. This as a method does help with allowing a particular Album to be searched out and discovered at a satisfying discounted price. Also which is quite cool, and having grown up a Trekkie' Fan. The Computer that was produced that evolved into Alexa was designed by a Cambridge University Educated Individual who wanted to produce a design that enabled an interaction in the same way the interactions are seen on Star Trek. I wonder when Branson, Bezos and Musk will be offering Warp Speed Travel. |
I’ve just moved to a SMG i5 sonicTransporter, ultraRendu and ultraDigital into a new Denafrips Terminator (new to me). 1 - SQ is good (better than a direct comparison with my CD transport via SPDIF.) 2 - There’s pain involved in getting the network side up and running and getting everything to play nicely together. 3 - support for the kit isn’t like it used to be in the good old days when you bought from a local dealer. Having problems with kit purchased new and is but a few days old, I’m told by the supplier to go register on a forum to seek help. I spend hours looking for answers, surrounded by masses of negativity concerning the equipment I JUST PURCHASED AT FULL MSRP. So now I don’t feel so good about my new investment, given that so many people are having issues. I can’t find the specific help I need after spending hours sifting through all the sorry s***, so I try to register an account so I can make my own post and join in the fun. I’m then told my account needs moderator approval, and I’m still waiting for that to happen. My advice to others - don’t throw away your old CD Players. 4 - when it does work I find myself constantly distracted by the iPad and sifting through the catalog of information on hand. Sure, I read liner notes when I buy a new vinyl, but all of this data via Roon is just distracting. I put together a two hour playlist and find that I’ve barely listened to the first half hour of music as I’ve been futzing around in Roon creating lists and searching for stuff. I’m old and somewhat senile but during rare moments of lucidity I still recall times when listening to music was relaxing, soothing, meditative and utterly pleasurable. Now I feel like I’m piloting the space shuttle, and if I’m not constantly pressing buttons and responding to blinking red lights the whole thing will crash into the ocean. OK, I got a bit carried away there at the end. Rooze |
redwoodaudio Ha! A CD is just like a LP record, but it's smaller and silver. Hope that helps. Next will be my too simple answer to 'What is an 8-Track..." Back to the discussion, I have kept many of my CD's, for both backup and fond memories, much like the records I kept. I love being able to skip that one song on an album that you just can't stand. I stream only to find new music or check out an album I don't have by an artist I like. I have to slightly disagree with thumbing through a record or CD collection is easier or better then using an App. A good app, like the Bluesound or Aurender has, or even Qobuz/Spotify is to me easier and more fun. All good ways to listen, no matter what your favorite way is. |
It was a long time ago when I last upgraded my system. Got rid of all my albums, TT and the rest. Went to CD. Learned my lesson the hard way. I just got around to a new start of replacing my old albums TT and the like. Ironically, I did happen to find a CD player that I like enough to keep along with a few CD discs as well. Nothing wrong with some of the new stuff. Nothing wrong with old stuff either. |
Johnspain - I am pleased to hear that you have had no problems when ripping CDs on your Cocktailaudio X45Pro. However, when I have tried to rip CDs I have always encountered problems. It takes around 20 minutes to rip one CD and as I have over 2,500 CDs in my collection it will take me over 830 hours to do them all. So it is a very laborious and time consuming activity, but the main problem is that the resulting file is never the same as the original CD. For example, none of the software I have used has been able to deal with gapless tracks correctly. It always either inserts a gap where none is required, or deletes a couple of seconds of music at the start of each track. At the very least there is a noticeable click when it moves on to the next track, which can be very distracting. Also, I have 130 SACDs in my collection. It is not possible to rip them because they are copy protected, so that would mean downgrading all my SACDs to CD quality. SACDs sound significantly better than similar recordings on CD so I do not want to downgrade them. The last problem is that the software I have used never labels the music correctly. For example, when I ripped a 2 CD set the first CD was put in a folder with the name of the composer but the second CD was put in a folder with the name of the pianist. So when the process had finished I had to rename the second file and move it to the composer folder. This makes the whole process very messy and labour intensive. Just out of interest - what was your main reason for deciding to convert your CDs to computer files? I can see few benefits. |
It has been (is) a fun thread. FWIW, I’ve finally decided. I am replacing my Oppo with a better CDP … Marantz SA-KI Ruby … reportedly a much improved DAC I can feed streaming content (including my CDs ripped to my Vault2i), but also retain improved playback of my CDs (keeping). I’m also interested in how SACD playback sounds on this beast. Not sure I want to pay $35 a pop for new ones, but maybe over time will see some of those on used market. I will still rip all my new CDs still buying to the Vault2i so I can feed my collection to the Node2i in the living room. Vinyl never leaving, have tables in both listening and living rooms. Still prefer that ritual/experience, and usually the sound (although I expect this new player, especially with SACD, will give it a run and perhaps surpass). We shall see … |
