dont like the myriad of soft tweeters speakers (of differing materials) I’ve heard as they dont get brass instruments and cymbals right with the proper metallic clang ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Problem w all dome tweeters is the fact , they are all being xover too low, Yeah I know Seas/Scan and SB Acoustics claim 2500hz-3khz is perfectly ok. But IMHO you are asking the T to do something that may add breakup/distortion. Especially w my classical/operas. I placea single 8uf cap which takes the T to 5k. Thats it. Now the T is very happy and sings beautifully. No stress, no breakups. Troels attempts to achieve this magical xover fq to 2k hz to meet his midwoofers. I can’t stand fq’s w T’s below 5k hz. After lengthy experimentations and cash investments, I FINALLY figured out why my classical music was not LIVE sounding Now I have a front row seat in all my 1950’s operas, , Corelli/Turnadot never sounded so powerfully dynamic and full of soul.
Not so fast. High-Pass XO with one cap gives you a 1st order slope (6db/octave). So for example, at 5KHz XO point, you are only 12 dB down at 1250Hz (2 octaves down from 5K). If you use a 4th order XO (24db/octave) at 2.5Hz XO point, you will be 24db down at 1250Hz. A much better, and less stressful configuration for the tweeter, even though it is crossed over lower. Your tweeter setup, which you brag about, is actually working a lot harder, and not sounding as good as it could (XOver too high for a good transition to a conventional midwoofer).
I have heard excellent examples in application of just about every type of tweeter. The key is putting a given tweeter in the right application with the right electrical integration to its mating speaker and enclosure.
I have also heard some terrible examples of applications of different tweeter types.
My favorite sounding tweeter of all time is the Scan Speak aluminum dome tweeter in the Harbeth C7ES3 speaker. What a gorgeous sounding tweeter.
dont like the myriad of soft tweeters speakers (of differing materials) I’ve heard as they dont get brass instruments and cymbals right with the proper metallic clang
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Problem w all dome tweeters is the fact , they are all being xover too low, Yeah I know Seas/Scan and SB Acoustics claim 2500hz-3khz is perfectly ok.
But IMHO you are asking the T to do something that may add breakup/distortion. Especially w my classical/operas.
I placea single 8uf cap which takes the T to 5k. Thats it.
Now the T is very happy and sings beautifully.
No stress, no breakups.
Troels attempts to achieve this magical xover fq to 2k hz to meet his midwoofers.
I can't stand fq's w T's below 5k hz.
After lengthy experimentations and cash investments, I FINALLY figured out why my classical music was not LIVE sounding
Now I have a front row seat in all my 1950's operas, , Corelli/Turnadot never sounded so powerfully dynamic and full of soul.
Designer and manufacture of Arion Apollo (AMT) speakers.
JD,
We will be exhibiting at the Pacific Audio Fest show this year in late July. We also plan on being at the Capital Audio Fest show this year. We will likely show Apollo 9 speakers at the PAF show. Is there a show in the Midwest?
One of our design criteria is high efficiency. We feel it is worth the extra effort to build speakers that can be enjoyed by both low power SET tube amp enthusiasts (2 watts) and medium power SS amps enthusiasts (200 watts) and everything in-between. Apollos speakers let the amp's virtues (or deficiencies) shine through. Personally, I use 45 tube amps (1.5 watts) driving Apollo 12s. At last year's CAF show we used ARC Ref 160M amps (140 watts). Other uses class-D amps, another uses 300B amps.
Good AMTs work well with both SS amps and tube amps. SQ issues are more likely about poor implementation or sub-par equipment.
Back in the day, I had a pair of DQ-10’s and I replaced the tweeters with Decca ribbons and they made the high end smooth as a Sows ear.😁 No really, there was no longer that sharp drilling sound that came out of those Piezoelectric ear shredder’s. Even after changing the tweeters, some caps on the crossovers and a few other things, I ended up trading them for a pair of Acoustat Model X’s, that I still have.
Although I have not personally heard them, I suspect the Voxative AC Xp Field Coil to be one of or perhaps is the best based upon reviews/reports. Unfortunately they’re very expensive. Hearing them is on my bucket list.
@chorus, mass and surface area are minor issues in comparison to this. True ribbons are like ESLs, a force over area drive system. Every molecule of the ribbon is controlled by the electrical signal. Dynamic speakers use a voice coil to drive a diaphragm. The diaphragm is expected to follow the movement of the voice coil perfectly. It is not controlled directly by the signal. It adds an uncontrolled resonating mass to the drive. The end result is significantly more distortion. By making a long ribbon ala Magnepan you can form a line source which is very difficult to do with dynamic drivers. Many have tried and failed. Line source speakers have significant advantages over point source speakers. There is one problem with ribbons. They can be rather fragile.
Kapton for ribbon midranges and tweeters for higher power handling, but not quite as smooth as mylar. Aluminum for cylindrical tweeters and midranges seem less harsh sounding than titanium. I've not tried beryllium so no opinion but some swear by beryllium.
For me its all about fatigue. I've built a few speakers and the metals don't work for me. Recently tried the Scanspeak Illuminator and they were very nice. The 2608 was a bit lifeless. The Dynaudio D28/2 and the D260 are my favorites and I could listen to all day. I have not heard a good ribbon and would like to try that soon. Would pair it with some oider Dynaudio 17W75s or a Scanspeak 4531. You all already gave me some ideas - thanks.
Best I’ve heard so far are the ribbons on the Quad z-2.
As described in Stereophile … as it goes in the wrriteup goes for the smaller lower quad speakers
Have heard the quad S-2 that have a smaller version … “were incandescent in”there highs I think the z-2 exceed the S-2 and should as the tweeter is twice the size.
last favorite was the titanium domes on psb speakers
magenapan quasi ribbon was not as transparent but haven’t yet heard the new revamped Maggie’s
look forward to my next steps up to beryllium and diamond done
dont like the myriad of soft tweeters speakers (of differing materials) I’ve heard as they dont get brass instruments and cymbals right with the proper metallic clang
I modified my AMTs to take the peak out of the high end (~10kHz) using a diffraction lens I designed/developed, and to boost the lower end by extending the flair.
I also remove the back wave because I don’t want the reflections, which can be unpredictible.
I also designed and made the stands out of 3/8" smoked acrylic cut on the laser table. I also have a pair in clear if anyone is interested in them.
I just wished to suggest that there are various specifications, that could explain the contradictory feedbacks.
You're not the only one.
Unfortunately it seems to be true that although it's often nice to simplify things as far as possible, when it comes to tweeters the application is all important.
Perhaps building loudspeakers can be likened to cooking.
Even the finest ingredients in the world may lead to disatisfaction if placed on the wrong hands, whilst others can seemingly concoct worldly delights with very modest means.
But, for instance, this Mundorf AMT tweeter (8 Ohms, 1,8Kg, and...$1145/piece!!) will need much less current, has a sensitivity of 100 dB
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm sure its a fine tweeter,
BUt really my 92db sens tweeters, will perform as good as this AMT.
again you do not need to spend a lot of cash to get super high fidelity.
I run both tweeters witha single Mundorf EVO SG 8uf cap , which allows both tweeters to go down to 5khz.
PERFECT match for my dual Full Range,
Seamless intergration, just incredible.
again repeating what I said above, now that I have dual tweeters in my system, I could never ever go back to a single tweeter design.
Philips AD163 cerca 1978 at about 91 db.
and a DavidLouis clone($100 pair) of a Seas T35($300+ EACH!!), at 92 db.
Looking at a 6 ohm tweeter, again davidLouis clone of a veryyyyy expensive tweeter.
The ESS AMT will shine when played using a high current solid state amp, but they don’t do nearly as well on tubes.
In these videos, I went to extremes to match the volumes...
Thanks !! The difference is obvious: significantly more defined when powered by solid state.
But is this difference of "behaviour" (with SS vs tubes) specific to the ESS AMT tweeter? It seems the possible answer is YES: ESS 689-1108, for instance, has a 4 Ohm impedance. A 4 Ohms load will always require a lot more current to sing.
But, for instance, this Mundorf AMT tweeter (8 Ohms, 1,8Kg, and...$1145/piece!!) will need much less current, has a sensitivity of 100 dB => I guess any tube could deal with that. And then here, tube could be better through this transducer.
And, again, that speaker uses an AMT (unknown origin), and is a 8 Ohms load, min. 6,8 Ohms. Again, I am not affiliated to JMR in any way, but it is outstanding for the price.
My humble CONCLUSIONS
the videos brilliantly demonstrate that high current SS are specifically preferable with the aforementioned ESS AMT tweeter, indeed.
But to make a general assessment that SS are a better match, on the base of only one model, is maybe misleading, as the Mundorf’s specification suggest (maybe others would, too).
It is possible that some other (high end? Expensive?) AMT tweeters easily accept tubes as well as SS, and does not favor the latter. So that their respective merits can more objectively shine through AMT’s. This could be the explanation of @danager’s preference for tubes-with-AMT (cf. his very good experience with 12w SET tubes), who probably did his findings that with another AMT tweeter in use.
The ESS AMT will shine when played using a high current solid state amp, but they don't do nearly as well on tubes.
That's not my experience. I heard them on a 12 watt SET amp and they were fantastic. So much so that I purchased a pair of ESS and plan on using them on my DIY speakers.
The time I heard them on a SS state amp they weren't nearly as impressive. I'll admit completely different venue, music and presentation.
The ESS AMT will shine when played using a high current solid state amp, but they don't do nearly as well on tubes.
In these videos, I went to extremes to match the volumes and the Vanessa track is within 0.1 dB while the SRV track is within 0.5 dB, both in favor of the Melton. Everything else is held constant.
I think many of us have lost hearing in the high frequency ranges. Depending on the level of hearing loss, some choose brighter tweeters to hear some of the higher frequencies they have lost. Perhaps, this is why there is such a variety of speaker using different tweeters. It also depends on the kind of music you listen. Perhaps, it would be interesting to know what speakers produce the best balanced and neutral sound. If you listen to classical or operas you are going to want to hear the artist more.
IMHO, the AMT (Air Motion Transformer) technology is unquestionably the best of all (when the manufacturer makes it right).
"AMT Air Motion Transformer" is an Oscar Heil patent, now in the public domain. But its quality indeed depends of the implementation that the manufacturer made of the patent. Some cheap AMT tweeters, made in China, weight 660gr and have an uneven frequency response. Other AMT tweeters are made by Mundorf (for instance), weight 1,8Kg, are very linear (and cost more than €1000/piece !!!). So, huge variations here, of course. As with ribbon.
But all technologies confounded, if you take the best of each one, the AMT wins hands down. I attend live acoustic performances, and I wish that my gear to sound like "the real thing". I did not dare to say to Peter Mc Graath (Wilson), while demonstrating a pair of Wilson Alexandria, that I heard just before a better right hand on the piano with an excellent AMT tweeter, powered by Gamut amplification. But I did dare to tell him that such great speakers as Wilsons fully deserved something better than those "nasty" tioxyd titane inverted dome made by Focal (that Wilson used at the time). Luckily, they stopped using them afterwards.
One brilliant use of AMT tweeter is for instance made by French speaker Jean-Marie Reynaud (JMR) Voce Grande ($9000 approx.). Please note that I am NOT French, neither have I any affiliation with JMR! The point is that I recently listen to them twice, and, for the price, I am gobsmacked. I know very few speaker that deliver such a value for the money, if you like speakers that sound very open, and non-fatiguing. And the AMT transducer used plays a big role here. I do not know the origin of the tweeter used in this case, but it is an extremely long model, made of one piece, which covers 1200hz-30000Hz.
Of course, like everyone here, I heard and know very well: soft domes, ribbon (I own a pair of true-ribbon planar ribbon speaker), beryllium, diamond, etc.
___________________
One member said previously:
Tweeter type does not matter. //I respectfully, but emphatically disagree: Yes, it does matter, definitely.
If you buy the best example of each type they are all outstanding. So if we look at it in reverse , meaning what is the best cheap tweeter, it boils it down to something more fundamental relating to design. The best inexpensive tweeter is the ring radiator. Even cheap ring radiators perform extremely close the the best examples.
They really have little character other than transparency and wide dynamics. I have never seen someone say, oh I can hear that ring radiator like they frequently do with metal domes hardness, soft domes smoothing over or ribbon shimmer.
To me the issue is we have become accustomed to hearing a certain signature and have developed a preference for them.
Maggie True Ribbon. no contest. and i've listened to good examples of Silk dome, Metal, alum, BE, Ring. honestly i've modified speakers with new tweeters. i have favored some of the Ring Radiators compared to the dome and they seemed to have better imaging. BUT nothing compares to a Long Length Dipole Ribbon. Dipole, dispersion, surface area can't be matched with the other methods.
Designer and manufacture of Arion Apollo speakers.
Thanks Eric. I do get the impression that Audiogon can be unfriendly to manufacturers so I usually stay away even though we pay quite a bit to advertise on this site.
We always welcome visitors for a listen, buyers or not, no pressure here. We like to share. How often do you come across a tall open baffle true line array speaker that can play clearly to high SPLs with 1.5 watt SET tube amps?
danager, Sorry, no. The only place, at this point, to hear them is at our showroom in Charlotte, NC.
@cakyol, precisely...I'm obviously addicted to amts'...horns are edgy and 'in your face', domes one step behind if metal (paper?; see 'cones'), cones sound 'stretched' at high levels...
Other 'exotica' I've not been exposed to...plasma could be a 'contender' if they didn't purport to suck the air out of the room...(I like air...use it a lot...)
'Stats are ok. but have the 'Maggie Issue'...the larger ones' make me feel like I'm in the first segment of 2001, the smaller (spouses' pref) seem 'leashed' and restrained....
"Call me...irresponsible..." or just a crank.... (I'm ok with the latter...)
Not quite the same as:
"SMOTE (synthetic minority oversampling technique) is one of the most commonly used oversampling methods to solve the imbalance problem."
...but it does cause a pause for one...;)
'The walls have eyes and ears.....' 👀 *ghostly racket*L*
A'gon can be unfriendly to manufacturers so I'm glad you are here and look forward to your insights. Pretty remarkable work to get an AMT to function that far down in the range. Outstanding!
@arion...Hi Mike, and I'll happily take you up on your kind offer.. At the minimum, I'll give you the shot at addicting me, and making @danagerinsanely jealous.... ;)
As said here in AVL, "....it's like getting 2 birds stoned at once!"
...but I know nothing about that sort of thing....🙄
We've an upcoming project in the TriCity area 2nd quarter this year, so that would be the likely time to Not show up in or with any form of 'rented' device or organism.
I'll be nice, so you ought not to have me see anything that would require a NTC agreement or the like. (I'd sign one if requested, however....know the routine...)
And I fully appreciate 'keeping the lights on'; spouse and self have our own 'beast' to keep fed. The results are in your area, PM for locations...and other perhaps interesting bits...
The Apollos' are impressive on the pages of your website, and I'm already concerned that they will live up to and beyond my wildest exhortations to my spouse....who would have me talking soprano for bringing them home.
"Are you Insane?! ...oh, right...that already existed....*grumble*damn*
Thanks again, and back to...
@andy2,,,Heils' sound Horrible by themselves....a heavy lump of 'squeeky', it's true. If you didn't know beforehand what they Can do, you wouldn't buy them either. But that's the case of any tweeter singing solo.... ;)
@danagerthat is true, 800ish is a more comfy zone to start the cross. You can push them near 500, but they're not happy about it....
I've a pair of Polk 6" with a passive that fills that gap 'twixt Heil and woofs...with a sub for 100 and below....
Would ultimately do the same for a Heil line source. which could make my 'fever dream' above more practical in reality...
...whatever That is...open to interpretation as usual, esp. in sounds audio.
Designer and manufacture of Arion Apollo speakers.
Hey asvjerry, I applaud your enthusiasm for AMT drivers.
The Apollos are dipoles. The $30K includes two towers, two woofer modules, woofer amplification and a Trinnov ST2 processor. We build our own AMT drivers in house. We do need to make a few dollars to keep the lights on :-)
The Apollo all AMT towers are high passed at 120Hz and can be driven by 2 watt SET amps or any other amps to very high SPLs. Don't try that with a stack of ESS Heil divers, or any other AMT for that matter. They are very good drivers though.
Please stop by in your most comfortable form. No blond or fancy car required. We are proud of our accomplishments and like to share, whether you are a buyer or not.
Sounds doable but Heil only go down to 800Hrz the Apollo go down to 125Hrz to cover most of the vocal range. They custom built them which why I suspect the price.
As soon as my baffles get built (waiting on my cousin but the labor is cheap... beer mostly) I'm planning a OB two way using the big Heil and a 15 inch woofer.
I'd bet Apollo has an open house that you could listen too without the rent a blonde but then again you don't get to rent a blonde.
Do this simple exercise. Disconnect the mid and bass drivers leaving only the tweeter. Play some music. It's impossible to tell if the tweeter is good or not. Meaning one can only tell how good a tweeter is once it is integrated to the rest of the speakers.
@danagerWell, Charlotte is but 2ish hours from me. I suspect the dealer would take one look at me and accurately judge me a 'lookie Lou'. So I'd have to talk extremely fast, rent a car that would require return Immediately if not sooner, dress beyond spouse's comprehension, and enter with some willowy blond that would also need to be....'rented'. *L*
But, agreed...I'd love to hear them as well. It would spoil me worst than being staked out in the yard for a month after untimely demise (although some here would demand a stop-motion vid to verify that fate...).
Meanwhile, the 30K$ is a bit of a pause...but being the sneaky SOB I can certainly aspire to....
ESS will sell you direct 18 of the large Heils' for $3,582 plus tax & shipping.
They're heavy, so the latter will be substantial.
Throw in the extra $18 and you can have 18 BT adapters and a choice of 2 versions of headphones....wipe out your gifting for years... ;)
They offer their 10" woofers for 149$ each....get as many as you think you could tolerate....the passive radiators for them are 110$ each, but to duplicate the Apollos'. not really required....
Crossovers...I'd go with some pro version. I like my Behringer 2496 and you can tweak yourself into a puddle...*teehee*
OK, you're down about 5~6K$.
Cabs...Heils' are dipoles, and ESS doesn't 'cab' them....why should you?
I can suggest a line source frame that would make wood blush, but I'd go with aluminum.
Woofer cabs....Apollo's are lovely, but the design is ancient. Personally I work in wood, so not an issue....for me, anyway.
Sweat equity in assembling something that'll crack sheetrock. *Evil G*
I've just saved you nearly 20K$.
I'll bill you later. ;)
When would you like to begin?
Regards, J.
(ESS ought to give a discount on a 'bulk buy', but they've already discounted on them....Promise pics of the end product....;)... The Heil AMT is too good to let fade into obscurity or bankruptcy...and NO, I'm not a dealer and I don't get a commission on anything. I'm just a fan....)
There are too many good and bad implementations of each of these materials. I have heard incredible Beryllium tweeters and painfully bright ones. I have heard awful diamond tweeters, I have heard brilliant. Same with ribbons, ceramic, aluminum, AMTs, etc. There is not best material. The total system drives the greatness or mediocrity of a speaker.
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