I'd say Stevecham is onto something with the lego vs result. My wife can instantly tune out when I'm on a rant about interconnects. She will listen to music with me for hours, get emotional with Shostakovich, and notice "somethings wrong" when there's a bad pressing or recording mistake. Is she an audiophile, yes. A gear junkie, absolutley not. |
Shoes who needs stinkin shoes. The fact is that audio can be bought like shoes. The woman in this case need only wait until shoes go on sale as though we aren't all aware that a lot of demos aren't sold after the "show".
They do not even have to know these things. They only need to wait for a "sale, clearance etc." to get a discount on audio. They just don't care. It is not the bargaining. BTW how many ads do you see these days that simply say the price is fair (not really but that is fodder for a different thread) and firm. Further there was a well read thread espousing- any offer lower than the asking price- to be low-balling. No my fellows this is purely a matter of giving a hoot.
Shoes are important..... to them. They invariably buy them with the excuse that it was marked down and goes perfectly with some outfit. The outfit lives it's limited fashion lifespan that seems to change faster than the shoes wear out and thus the accumulation of endless pairs of shoes. Absolutely no accumulated shoe is right for the au currant (a type of berry) fashions. Unfortunately even with the use of a potent toxin there just is no shoe-diogon. That change in fashion is imperceptable to me and I wear "business attire" for my field, which isn't dramatically different than a generation back.
It is though and women are probably wondering what was wrong with the last cartridge, component, you had. Going all the way back to when she heard an early iteration. |
Nice one, Stevecham. Thanks to you and your wife. Makes the M-F pairing seem very appropriate. More active male swaps power cord, more passive wife appreciates artistic result; the world is a better place.
One could go on with such a scenario. Emotionally-oriented wife is willing to praise power cord swapper, icing the cake with mild incredulity ("It's different. What did you do? You did _what_?") for the emotional result. Lego-oriented husband is proud of having made world a better place through electricity. Voila : emotional payoff through power cord swapping. |
My wife says:
"Women are more into the emotional realm, the source doesn't matter as much as the content. The sound quality is not as important as the music itself. Changing cables and playing with "lego" like you guys like to do, doesn't turn women on. In this regard, women tend to be more passive when it comes to music and when they happen to hear something they like, the playback quality is not the first thing they think about." |
Bander,
"Shoes? I'm a sucker for them, just like I am for a good power cord. "
You killed me with that line! Thanks for the chuckle! |
"Your woman, in the meantime, will make the phone calls, go shopping with friends, eat chocolate, try to get your attention (!), or, if she's still in the room, she'll likely want to dance and move to the music rather than just sitting and listening."
"Women collect shoes and your $$$ :) !!!!!"
I'm sure that if the 2 men who wrote the above responses knew how shallow and misogynist there remarks are, they'de say I was being too sensitive.
I am female, and an audiophile. I love chocolate (the good dark stuff only please). Shoes? I'm a sucker for them, just like I am for a good power cord. Oh, and I went shopping for a leather jacket the other day. What a rush that was!! And what a beautiful jacket it is.
Why aren't there more female audiophiles? I coulnd't say.
As for Pzuckerman' survey. Opposites attract.
Me:
Audiophile
Woman
Feeler
Introvert
Things
System
Go figure.
Oh, and sometimes I do get up from my sweet spot and dance to the music. |
Back to the car dealerships - women cite hating the entire car dealership experience. It's the biggest problem the car mfgrs have since guess what, women influence/decide almost all high ticket family decisions... and also have plenty of discretionary income of their own.
It may also be that guys get their own money to spend as they want and comes time to buy audio they don't want to go through the whole process with their mate. In other words they only want approval and admiration after the purchase.
It may be (as in my case) that my mate could care less about the technology (though she is very technical) and only cares about the music.
Finally I think it is a lot easier for a retail sales guy to pressure a guy then a woman or a couple... A guy is wired to believe in snake oil and gold mines and let's face it is more likely to buy the bridge... |
It's amazing how many other things my wife can find to do when I'm trying to explain why an external DAC is essential. Merry Christmas to all! |
I think it must be genetic, with the allele on the sex defining chromosone. It is likely the loss of a suppresor protein which exists as a homozygote in the XX female vs. the Male XY. It is obviously only expressed if homozygote. This being entirely speculative and therefore it could in fact be the inverse i.e. the gene is a promoter that must be on the Y chromosone.
In my case it is probably simply doing what my Father did.
My sister and wife are very talented musicians. Both listen to music but don't care about the equipment other than WAF. My wife listens to my secondary rig which is in my living room fairly frequently but at 60 db. She usually gets P.O.ed with my 80 +/- Db volume preference. |
In all my 150+ dealings here on the gon - I had only one (1) woman call me & she wound up buying (a local pick up) my Wilson Audio Watt Puppy 6's about 3 years ago.
I do consider my wife a "audiophillette" as she really loves the sound of my 2 channel rig, but prefers our HT set up as she & the rest of the world are not allowed to touch my personal system. |
Liking music and being an audiophile are not necessarily the same thing. Of course, women like music just like men. It's the "techie" side of the hobby that they are not attracted to. And this is an important part of the hobby for many men. Many women aren't interested in it for the same reason that they are not interested in car mechanics, plumbing or engineering. It's a broader societal issue involving related topics such as occupational and gender stereotyping which is taught from infancy. Then throw in a little bit of genetic hard wiring, although the extent and the way this modifies things is unknown. There are not a lot of female audiophiles for the same reason that there are not a lot of male secretaries. And by the way, when was the last time you guys bought a pink outfit for your baby boy or enrolled him in ballet class? |
Why hasn't "Elizabeth" weighed in on this one? She's usually got something to say. |
I'm a woman and consider myself an audiophile and Ive also also wondered why there are seemingly not more of us. I think there is probably no simple answer. We probably do care more about how the house looks but I have trios i actually like their looks. I think the fact that almost all the people on audio related forums probably does discourage more women from participating so the lack of women on these forums becomes a little self perpetuating but most of the people ive dealt with here have been great and helpful. I also think that women who get into this hobby might like to talk more about music then the gear ( Kind of like wine i'd rather drink it then talk about but some oy my guy friends seem to like the wine patter more). I find I'm more likely to respond to the music posts. But that being said I've often not understood how if you love music you can avoid investing at least some effort and money ( assuming some disposable cash) in this hobby. |
I propose a semi-scientific investigation which may lead to some insight. Perhaps there is a personality profile associated with being an audiophile, and perhaps the profile is prevalent in men and rare in women. I hereby propose the following informal survey. Each responder should answer for him- or herself and pose the same inquiries to his or her spouse or significant other -- and for that matter, anyone else you care to survey (the more the better):
1. Do you consider yourself an audiophile? (audiophile or non-audiophile)
2. Are you a man or woman? (man or woman)
3. Would you describe yourself as a thinker or a feeler? (thinker or feeler)
4. Would you describe yourself as an extrovert or an introvert? (extrovert or introvert)
5. Are you more interested in things or people? (things or people)
6. If offered the choice at no cost to you between a concert of your favorite musical ensemble exclusively performing for you and any others you choose to invite, or a world-class playback system, yours to keep forever, which would you choose, assuming the market value of each is identical? (concert or system)
Here is my response in the format I'd recommend for easy analysis:
1) Audiophile
2) Man
3) Thinker
4) Introvert
5) Things
6) System
Here is my wife's:
1) Non-audiophile
2) Woman
3) Feeler
4) Extrovert
5) People
6) Concert
There may be other questions that should be added. Feel free to expand, and please post your results. Perhaps we'll uncover something informative. |
Is it any wonder?? Sweetmamma31 responds and the rest of the guys(for the most part) continue on as if there were no women present.
Sweetmamma-sorry to hear of your purchasing experience,but in the end its' the customers' money that gets the respect.This might actually play in your favor,smile and act sweet>>then hit them up for a great discount.There's no better place to play "hard ball".
Happy Listening and Happy Holidays to All. |
Women can become audiophiles, you just have to create the right mood |
Sweetmamma31, thanks for your response. Although I appreciated the new (to me) facts in Albert Porter's post, yours is the only one I can find so far which actually responded directly to the question in the OP's title.
Women are smarter, women don't think like men, women would rather talk on the phone, they have better ears and would rather shop for shoes... these and other generalizations, no matter how gallant, are doing just what you say: not taking women audiophiles seriously. I have tossed them around myself.
I don't know what I would do if I wanted to set up an audio dealership the way Calbrs03 describes a female-oriented car dealer. Except for maybe one obvious thing: I wouldn't spend a lot of energy creating an audio forum. Apparently, women don't have a great desire to schmooze about the gear.
I could be wrong, though. There's no way to know, because as it is, audio forums are online men's clubs. Maybe women realize the therapeutic function of this kind of thing for the masculine identity, and stay away out of kindness? |
Harry Bealfonte knows when he sings:
"Believe me when I say, woman is smarter in every way" |
I think that women DO hear better and that is part of the difference. They immediately hear how sad our systems are, no matter how much we've spent on silly cables, monstrous speakers and glowing tubes. They hear the intermodulation distortion going on when our speakers fight each other. They're amazed that we put up with such grossly flawed systems and quite kindly just stay out of the whole thing.
Oh, the other thing is they don't want to screw up the decor. They would be horribly mortified to have the coffee group over and admit that they spoiled the decor themselves. The men have made them believe that you can't have good looks AND good sound, so they don't want to even begin a search.
Dave |
Men collect fancy machines and that's including audio equipments....
Women collect shoes and your $$$ :) !!!!! |
Often it's the setting that women dislike. There is nothing feminine about audio gear, showrooms (including Audiogon) or salespeople. Furthermore, women are tactile. If they can't touch something, it's less than friendly.
The women I know make lots money. They like to spend lots of money. And they like toys as much as men do. Car companies figured this out years ago and therefore changed the amenities and textures of their products; they changed their marketing; they changed the layout and decor of their showrooms, and they changed their sales approach to women as active buyers. |
It's not just the brains that are different; Many body parts differ radically from male to female - guys - in case you haven't yet noticed! ;^)
Pzuckerman was probably closest with his "dominion" comment. Men (usually) have a great deal more testosterone, which instills a drive to either "nail it, or kill it." In so many venues, for men it's all about facing challenges, going up against adversaries, dealing with the threat of imminent death, pushing the edges and limits, and finally breaking through these challenges in victory. (Think football.) In the process, men "empty" themselves through their efforts, and thus find the freedom - emptiness, stillness - that they crave. (Here, think of the culmination of another of our favorite activities, as an example.) Given a choice after these efforts, men would sit, stay still & quiet, witnessing whatever arises (hopefully a roast beef sandwich.)
Women, with estrogen, have a completely different mode. Women (usually) are not very interested in aggression, challenges, and breaking through to emptiness and freedom. They are drawn by communion with others (dear friends), relational activities (that phone call, gathering), fullness (chocolate!, shopping), motion and flow (dancing.) Women, in general, strive to fill themselves and stay in motion, rather than empty themselves as men do. The ultimate goal of woman is to be one with the world of form.
So how does this relate to audio?
Men address the challenge of setting up the "perfect" sound system. It is a fight, a struggle. You need to figure it all out, plan your moves, do your research. And when that perfect component comes up for auction, there's happiness when bidding on - and winning! - the piece. You've beaten everybody else. Even then, the penalty for failure is high; if you get a bad component or one not synchronistic with the rest of your system, you've failed! You lose!
But when it all comes together, when men have fought and clawed to create that perfect system, you can kick back and relax into the results, being drawn to another place, even disembodied sometimes, draining into the freedom of, well, "release" into the sound. You sit, motionless, silent, witnessing, listening, free...
Until you begin to think that maybe a new power cord would improve things slightly.
Your woman, in the meantime, will make the phone calls, go shopping with friends, eat chocolate, try to get your attention (!), or, if she's still in the room, she'll likely want to dance and move to the music rather than just sitting and listening.
Everyone's different, of course, and these are just sweeping generalities, but I've found them to be true. Understanding the inherent differences makes things a lot more tolerable... it reduces confusion.
Rob |
In nature males compete for females. That's the "gene" that drives us and the one that women, to their advantage, lack. |
Lets hear from Elizabeth. |
Albertporter, you write:
"My counterpoint question is, Why do women shy away from competition"
Excuse me, but when I look around I see many successful competitive women.
Women who run countries (Margaret Thatcher) or who want to (Hillary).
Women who run major companies (Margaret C. Whitman at eBay)
Women who compete in sports, just look at the Olympics.
So I disagree, I don't think women shy away from competition, I think they shy away from high-end Audio and I can't understand why. |
Audio will always remain male dominated as yoga is to females.
How will your football pal react when YOU tell him that you have a weekly yoga class?? |
women do not like the three stooges, procol harum, and hi end audio....all else can be shared to some degree. |
Jmcgrogan2 ... "Male brains and female brains: different" John ... early on in evolutionary development the female of the species elected beauty over intellegence, because even at this early point in the developemental process the female's of the species realized ... "that the male of the species could SEE better than they could THINK" happy holiday |
Hey, I'm a female audiophile! Not all women shop for shoes, you know! Men audiophiles don't take women audiophiles seriously, that's the problem! The few female audiophiles there may be on Audiogon will agree with me. When I go shopping for new gear and the seller (always a man) doesn't know me, he just takes me to a room where all cheap hi-fi gear is stored. When I tell them what exactly it is I'm after, they just frown and look at me in a funny kind of way (could that be a mocking way?), but soon we talk business. So you see, guys, there are some serious female audiophiles here on Audiogon! Happy Holidays and Happy Listening! |
I agree, they are smarter. Thank goodness or men would have vanished long ago. |
So what if woman have better hearing? Does having great eyesight make you a great artist? Does having great tastebuds make you a great chef?
Having great of any of the above things usually makes you a good critic? Woman are better critics on any subject right? |
Different wiring, plumbing and priorities. |
John, I knew you would pop up in this thread !
AudiogoN, or anything audio related = Me
Home Shoppers Network, or anything related = Wife
Happy Holidays folks !! |
A woman will shop for hours to find a great price on something she did not go out looking for. A man will go directly to the store, buy exactly what he wants in a matter of minutes, regardless of price.
Male brains and female brains: different.
Is there an echo in here??
Cheers,
John |
Pzuckerman, Perhaps that's as close to a perfect response as we are going to get. My counterpoint question is, Why do women shy away from competition, even when they can win? I recently read the following: Research indicates that even at a task that women clearly perform as well as men, they are less likely to choose a competitive setting, more likely to underrate their performance when they have to guess at it, and perhaps even more likely to shy away from receiving feedback. If women shy away from competition and men compete too much, the authors wrote, this
decreases the chance of women succeeding in competition for promotions and more lucrative jobs.
Their conclusions were based on a rigidly controlled experiment in which male and female subjects indicated a willingness, or lack of willingness, to have their work rated in a competitive -- in this case a tournament involving the solution of simple math problems.
Men and women performed the tasks about equally well, she and Vesterlund found, but women at all ability levels were less likely to choose a tournament setting.
There was no follow-up questioning to determine why the subjects (University of Pittsburgh undergraduates) made the choices they did. As you accurately stated, male brains and female brains; different. |
Just to add to what Pzuckerman said, if you don't think that women can be technical, ask them to figure out a phone or pick the optimal phone plan. I have absolutely no idea about either, yet every woman I have ever met has an inate understanding of these things. |
Except for buying shoes,,,,women have more common sense.. |
I think your estimate of 2 percent women is too high. I've never met one in over 30 years in the hobby. It's not as if women don't enjoy music, and they certainly patronize live music events. I know many women musicians and singers. I postulate there must be some difference between male and female brains to account for the audiophile disparity, though I don't know what it is. A parallel in the animal kingdom can be seen in birds. Male birds sing; females don't -- though females judge male bird vitality in part by their songs, so they are in a sense audiophiles. Perhaps, however, it's the audiophile hardware -- women don't like it. Thus, men have recognized the WAF, wife acceptance factor, when it comes to spousal acceptance of playback gear. It may also be about the need for control. What is this hobby if an not an attempt to create a perfect virtual world over which we have absolute dominion? Men want one; women don't care. Men are into things; women into people and relationships. My wife has often remarked, when forced to listen to my system, that the experience "is better than being there. It truly transports me to another place." After listening to one cut of an album, she invariably leaves to return a phone call -- an experience which she obviously finds more engaging. I, on the other hand, cannot abide a phone call that lasts more than a minute. Male brains and female brains: different. |
I find most women to have far better hearing than we men do, my wife can sum up a change in a few notes, they just don't seem to have the gene that makes them want to deal with all the BS we go through to get our sound. |
Women are just smarter.
Michael |
