Whats the ultimate goal with your pre amp ?

@krelldog Thanks for starting this discussion as I'm also looking into the role of a pre-amp in my system. We have the same amp. For now, I'm using the "straight wire with gain" approach. My DAC sounded great connected directly to the amp, but that left me with having to change out cables to use my turntable (my phono preamp has adjustable gain so it could also be connected directly via unbalanced inputs to the amp). The Topping pre90 was eminently affordable, described in several reviews as not affecting source sound, and allowed the use of my turntable. Uncertain re it being a permanent solution, but certainly makes for an enjoyable system as is. My thinking is to look at tube preamps for providing a different, maybe better, flavor to the sound. Uploaded photos to update my virtual system.

My preference for a preamp is both sound and function.

For the function I like / require at least 2 balanced inputs. 

For sound I prefer a class A operation with 6SN7 tube complements and a tube rectifier.  I also like lots of dynamics and drive.  I have never heard a solid state preamp that can project such a large and deep sound stage.  

With the right tubes and rectifiers coloration is minimal and refinement is high. 

Going to buy my second LA-4 next week. Can't say enough good things about it. Rory at Benchmark is great to deal with and talk to.  How can you argue with a 30 trial period, 5 year warranty, made in USA (NY)   The people that want to spend a fortune for another name need to see the LA-4, a real education. 

Look into Atma-Sphere

http://www.atma-sphere.com/en/mp-3.html

audphile1

2,368 posts

01-22-2023 at 08:45am 

@krelldog I’ve not yet heard an active preamp that didn’t color the sound. If you ever ran your source direct into your amplifier at unity gain vs it going thru an active linestage, you would most likely hear flatter, colder and more analytical sound. A good linestage would help round some of the rough edges off, paint a more layered and dimensional soundstage, do few good things to the mids without losing clarity and most likely improve the bass. All the good colorations. I don’t think your preamp is an overkill by any means.

All true, but a great pre also adds micro and macrodynamics and drive. The sound goes from boring to exciting. 

Look into Coda...great product! I believe Sanders is also Coda spawn...

Thanks for all the great responses. Let me clarify...I do fully understand the value of a great preamp. Part of the reason for this topic was to identify some world beater preamps that don't cost a fortune.

The mention of the Benchmark and the Sanders preamps were interesting. Neither has ever been on my radar. Its nice to know you can get this level of performance for 5K or less.

Take a peak inside to see how the design is and what parts are used. How is the power supply? My guess is that you will find while some are more robust that others, the overall parts are close to being the same so overall the sound differences are not so much better. That is why you have to learn what makes the a component sound the way it does. Once you understand that, you can then find components that are much better then the average manufactured products you are considering.

As for how a preamp colors the sound, well all preamps have their own sound characteristics.    There are preamps that can do both but again you have to know what to look for in the design. 

@krelldog I’ve not yet heard an active preamp that didn’t color the sound. If you ever ran your source direct into your amplifier at unity gain vs it going thru an active linestage, you would most likely hear flatter, colder and more analytical sound. A good linestage would help round some of the rough edges off, paint a more layered and dimensional soundstage, do few good things to the mids without losing clarity and most likely improve the bass. All the good colorations. I don’t think your preamp is an overkill by any means.

In many ways, the preamp makes or breaks the system. Too much gain and there are problems. Too little gain is also problematic. Wonky input or output impedances also lead to troubles down the road matching other components. Not enough input or output connections are a headache as well.....

Choose wisely. 

If the preamp is the heart of the system, what's the pancreas?

@arcticdeth 

'The Preamp' eh?

Some of us with remember The Preamp from the early 1980s, a very small lightweight unit with a lit-up red company logo that was Musical Fidelity's very first product.  I wonder if Roger knows about it.  I bought one.  Very sweet sounding but the pots went windy after a few years - guess Anthony Michaelson didn't spend enough money.  Other than that I was happy with it until I moved on to a used SP10 that was miles out of its league and, at nearly 20x the price jolly well should be.  I have stayed with AR ever since.

Selecting sources, volume control and presenting the signal to the amplifier is the role of the pre-amp.

In my experience the pre-amp is very important on the quality of sound.  I introduced a quality pre-amp to an integrated amplifier and it improved the detail and dynamics (perhaps it didn't 'color or degraded' the signal to the amp).

@arcticdeth 

±1

The Sanders is indeed all that, exquisitely neutral. AND it answers the OP query - control. It does that better than any others that I have seen. Two (!) loops and mono on remote control.

I prefer the older line stage which favors independent choice of phono pre or abandonment of same. 

My thoughts exactly….    Even my earliest systems had the best preamp I could afford.  My last integrated amp was a Sansui AU 9900. That was replaced by an Apt Holman and Apt 1 amp.   
 

Since then when upgrading electronics and it’s tie for a new preamp I will always stretch my budget   
 

I have had some pretty modest systems that sounded like a new set up thanks to a great preamp.   The DAC with volume camp does not know what they are missing. 
 

The preamp is often called the heart of the system. I have always reached for the best possible preamp for my systems. This has always worked well.

Putting a lower level component within the signal path will never help. You have to go to really crazy levels to have a preamp “too good”. Typically mine have been the most expensive components in my system.

‘’You can see my system under my used ID. I used to have all Pass designed components. Now I have all Audio Research.

There are no top end systems that don't use a quality preamp. It's very important.

I put high priority on the preamp.   It is the heart of a great system.  I had a Zesto Leto,  it transformed my system it is such a great preamp.   I am using my back up preamp while waiting for a DHT preamp I'm having built.   It's a huge step backward in performance going from something like the Leto to my 30 year old SFL 1 .

Lot's of systems where the preamp is the bottleneck and you'll never know unless you try a few different ones.   I was using a CJ Classic 2se , a very good preamp and that Zesto walked all over it.  The difference was profound. 

prices of individual components don’t mean ickday!

LOL

Don’t listen to some of these snobby itchbays. 
 

prices of individual components don’t mean ickday!

oh no,a 2K speaker pair driven by a 10K monoblocks, it’s too good for the speakers?  Who thinks of hitsay?

 Prices don’t,matter n audio, if the music sounds good, then it sounds good.

regardless I f the cost of gear. 
 

have the highest level of kismet by odyssey upgrades, driving a pair of mid 90’s BIC venturi V830 towers. Sanders preamp, and 2 low cost spinners, Rotel rdv 1040,,a sherwood 5:cd carousel, pioneer elite dv79avi does get called up from time to time. 
 

Years ago, I had altec Lansing 510 towers powered by 2 Carvin dcm 2500 pro guitar amps in mono, feeding 2500W rms to each speaker,…the headroom and open airy sound was huge and wide, Acurus acd-11 spinner,  b and k pro10-mc preamp, older Parasound tuner.

sounded great to me. Don’t be so quick to put peoples equipment down, or the owners. Not cool.

The preamp is overkill when your source components are of lesser quality.

Well the TT is working nice.
But the old CD player, TV, and DAC running into it are all together maybe 1/4 of the price of the preamp.
But I can switch between the 4 sources, and a radio tuner (so 5 sources).

If one only has a DAC or some other single source, then they could remove the preamp if the volume can be controlled reliably.

Roger Sanders “The Preamp” is the most, colorless preamp I’ve ever used, it is the proverbial straightwire with gain I’ve ever purchased. 
​​​​​….

Or straight wire with attenuation. 😎

+1 on the Benchmark LA4, I just recently got one before the Holidays and it's the best preamp I've used in the last 40 years.

Do a 30-day home trial with your system and ears of the Benchmark LA4 preamp. Uncolored, XLR, pure silence from the tweeters, and the volume control is amazing. The volume control does click but that is a benefit for me since it has 256 steps.

Benchmark LA4 Line Amplifier - Benchmark Media Systems

The Benchmark website has had this disclaimer since 2019. They are selling a ton of them.

WE RECOMMEND PLACING AN ORDER BEFORE THESE ARE SOLD OUT. WE HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD TO INCREASE OUR PRODUCTION, BUT DEMAND HAS BEEN GROWING RAPIDLY AND ELECTRONIC COMPONENTS ARE IN SHORT SUPPLY.

I recently got a CODA #16 amp and paired with the LA4 is amazing. I just hear the beautiful sounding amp and my source.

BTW - I tried a $7.5K colored preamp with CODA, KRELL XD, Benchmark AHB2, Parasound A21+, Class D (and GAN), I always came back to the LA4. If the amp sounds good, then I want to hear that and not the preamp.

Krelldog it’s been awhile I have not see you posting ? Welcome back.Kota1 agree good post .

The preamp is overkill when your source components are of lesser quality. The preamp can't put back in what the source left out, just let it come through as uncolored as possible. I wouldn't use a $10K preamp like the Classe Delta with a $500 source.

Roger Sanders “The Preamp” is the most,colorless preamp I’ve ever used, it is the proverbial straightwire with gain I’ve ever purchased. Past 35+ years I’ve been through a lot of preamps, amps, cd spinners, EQ’s, tape decks, tuners, receivers’ etc etc

plus, it’s small, is unassuming, has amazing features, and has 20K of,capacitance

the remote alone is a mini computer. Has XLR and RCA’s.
not sure if totally balanced, the best preamp I’ve ever had.
she is a keeper. Completely colorless of every recording, good in good out, bad in bad out

30 day in home trial…..after the 4th week, I called Roger & asked for anther 2 weeks with the preamp, as I felt she was not broken in yet,….before the 6th week was up I called Roger with my credit card info.
I still swap in my Onkyo P-308 listening to Bathory’s first three releases, demo’s, live shows .

I love talking to Roger, he will answer every question, and loves to chat and talk audio, capacitors, cables, electrostatic speakers, and talk about his Magtech stereo amp, which I’m saving for a bit at a time, I’m almost there another year and I’ll be ready to buy one of the most reliable and power / current dumping amps.

Now that I’m writing all this, I’m realizing how close I am to finally owning the Magtech amp! I’m H A P P Y, …IM H A P P Y…..

http://sanderssoundsystems.com

a ton of info here, take an hour and read the white papers, reviews,, Roger is a good man, call him and shoot the breeze ne evening!

http://sanderssoundsystems.com

In my mind I want the Pre to be uncolored..silent...and have flexibility/with XLR's in and out. Does or should it cost 10K to achieve this ?

Just get one with a high SINAD then and call it a day.

Some people also choose a tube preamp and run into SS and desire a bit of color.

The ultimate goals are:

• Allowing switching of inputs
• Level control and balance
• Sometimes tone controls.
• Driving the IC that leads to the amp with a low enough output impedance.