I have listened to turntables for sixty years. I bought my first high end TT about thirty years… it was revelatory. I do not swap tables often. I do a huge amount of research and then stay with one for fifteen years or so. My most recent upgrade was from a VPI Aries (heavy mass) to a Linn LP12 (light weight, sprung)…very nearly the very top level. Could we please not turn this into a religious thing about Linn… mine is an outstanding TT which compares favorably with any other $45K analog leg (TT, cartridge, and Phonostage)
The term lively comes up in descriptions. One of the differences in character I noticed between the VPI and Linn… which I thought might be considered liveliness was to me a bit of what I perceived as the images very slightly jumping around… the kind of thing you would think of when you see films of “The Flash” maybe vibrating in place. While I found this gave me the feeling of the notes wanting to jump out at me, I found it a bit disconcerting. I attributed it to a relatively light weight rig, that is really good at rejecting low frequency vibrations (it is a sprung table… known to be lively sounding) up to a relatively high frequency… but beyond that not. Something a really heavy rig would not be effected by.
To test my theory, I had a Silent Running Ohio Class vibration platform constructed for my turntable. The image smear, as I called it disappeared. There is no smear and it has great solidity.
Thank you for your comments. I find my observations very roughly follow yours… but you mention dark… I my observational word is solidity. So, definitely not the same but in a broad spectrum… over in the same area. I’ll have to ponder your comments some more.
@ghdprentice I can definitely see "solidity" being a better term in some contexts. My friend with an HW-40 would call it "solidity" too. Your isolation & support structure, and gear partners (especially cartridge) matter a lot. Choice of arm (metal vs. 3D) also influences this. I think it's no coincidence VPI partners with Van den Hul (lively with lots of top-end energy) and Audio-Technica cartridges. I had great results with a VdH Crimson on VPI, and even more impressive w/ Colibri on Avenger if not for that Colibri being a bit of a sibilance machine (not the table's fault).
Across a number of contexts made as similar-as-possible, I extrapolated the VPI tables as being a bit "dark" relative to SOTA and Clearaudio Innovations. The Avenger more so than Aries 3. The 3D / Fatboy arms more so than metal.
I really really liked AirTight PC-7 on VPI tables; it can be a little hot on Clearaudio but wow on a VPI. Too bad it was discontinued :(
Thank you for your comments. I find my observations very roughly follow yours… but you mention dark… I my observational word is solidity. So, definitely not the same but in a broad spectrum… over in the same area. I’ll have to ponder your comments some more.
As a Marketing Term used as Speil to get a reaction, the term' Prat' if invented by a individual from the UK has more than one connotation.
As it was directed to a Audience of what one would suggest to be mainly mail. Iy can only be suggested a Misogeny is an underlying context for the creation of the term 'Pfat'
For the Linn TT design, making the Statement as Speil
"She's a Belter" might have been kinder to the females of the UK
Can’t say that rings a bell as described but should not happen. Maybe a sign of stylus not tracking properly perhaps due to setup and or tonearm/cart mismatch issues. Could also have something to do with inherent cart design and/or performance. Cart picking up some kind of high frequency vibration also a possibility .
Turntables are very brittle devices. A lot can go wrong very easily.
Give me any turntable with any system in any room, i will use acoustics basic knowledge to improve the turntable or the Dac perceived results...
Then i dont know which is better at any price for all involved brands name between turntables and dacs and almost nobody knows at the end ...( i believe because i had no reason to doubt it that "at the end" but ONLY for some lucky audiophile with TOP acoustic room and TOP designed gear to do the comparison turntables are the best as mikelavigne claim )
But i know very well by experiments what acoustics dispositions and devices linking ears/speakers/room can do and it is huge in almost all case for almost all audiophiles with or without turntables...
I dont claim here that there is no differences between gear design quality or gear types...
Acoustics matter as much as the gear at least and at last...
Then owning dac or turntable matter way less than acoustics for most of us...
I am surprised, after re-reading some of this thread, that apparently no one brought up Ivor Tiefenbrun’s acronym, PRaT. He coined it as a marketing tool for his LP12. Is that what the OP is getting at? The sense of the liveliness of a sprung turntable can possibly come from distortions produced by the belt stretching and contracting as the platter bounces while the unsprung motor remains stationary. The suspension springs can be activated at a "micro" level by variations in stylus drag owing to groove tortuosity, resulting in relative motion between motor and platter. This hobby is like that; sometimes distortions produced in the reproduction process are perceived as adding to verisimilitude. For another example, electronics that produce audible low order harmonic distortion can be perceived as sounding "rich", which for many is attractive.
I have never experienced the "jittery image" you describe - that is wild, but glad you resolved it with better isolation :)
As far as "lively" sound, I would attach more to tonal balance placing relative emphasis on higher parts of the frequency spectrum. Having now experienced VPI decks for over a year - I would say they generally have a dark tonal balance. Much more so with the 3D arm materials. The opposite of "lively". They are VERY reactive in audible bass frequencies if your isolation is not good enough (again, especially 3D materials) - this probably feeds into the "dark" character I perceived, but it persists to some degree even with better isolation. I ended up preferring their later metal arm wand builds.
By contrast, the Clearaudio Innovation decks tread into slightly "lively" territory. Very clean, tight, and fast in bass. Very clean midband without sounding sterile. Clean, crisp treble without sounding bright. Some might wish for more overall bass energy, but it’s enough for me. These tables are not reactive in audible frequencies (which probably contributes to their "clean" character), but rather they are VERY reactive in subsonic frequencies due to the magnetic bearing. It doesn’t affect the audible spectrum until your woofers are flapping like crazy and /or your amp is pushed into clipping.
The SOTA decks (Nova, Cosmos) sonically fall smack in-between these two. Not dark like the VPIs, but not quite so clean as the Clearaudio. Very nice "musical" balance, and with superb built-in isolation. You should still try to avoid the suspension getting excited during playback (it benefits from rigid support).
I've used a few different models of all 3 brands with different rooms, isolation, arms, and cartridges, phono stages etc. The sonic "character" I speak of is extracted and averaged from that.
I prefer to suggest Sub Plinths as the initial trials as they will offer a impact on the Sonic that will show the traits of the Board. The Sub Plinth is more ubiquitous and easier to source as a reasonably priced item.
The TT Plinth in the same material is carrying additional cost, your want to extract detail, is exactly where the PRIDW Board comes into its own.
The New Linn TT, has a version of this material incorporated into the design, even though the description is being used to not let an individual recognise the Brand selected.
@pindacMy plinth builder offers slate or Panzerholz between two aluminum plates. I’m tempted but an owner of one said it was a little softer and warmer than slate. Note that my turntable sits on 3" of maple which sits on the concrete blocks which stand on a 4" concrete basement away from other buildings. The maple definitely introduced some sweet woody color. Replacing it with PRIDW might work better than maple. My sound preference is to extract as much detail as possible from the solution without harshness. Thankfully, system sounds wonderful.
@noromance If you like the effect that a Concrete Base has under the supporting structure, in recent years the next best thing to this has been for myself, using Phenolic Resin Impregnated Densified Wood, such as a Panzerholz Type material.
I highly recommend this as a Sub Plinth or Sub Plinth - Sub Sub Plinth assembly.
My own usage has also extended for it to be used as Plinth Material for a TT.
All the @lewm has written is spot on. Or, at least, I agree with.
I wholeheartedly agree with his comment that absolute speed accuracy, while very nice to have, is not essential. Speed “constancy” is. I would take it a step further and suggest that there might be aspects related to a turntable’s temporal performance that relate to speed constancy that, just as with other “distortion” issues, are not fully understood. Rhythm is THE most important aspect of music and hence the most important in its reproduction. It is also the most neglected consideration in audiophile-speak. I don’t claim to understand the “why’s”, but I am confident in saying that compared to the free, unrestricted rhythmic feeling of live music performance (assuming the playing is producing it), turntables vary greatly in how they reproduce this feeling. Some capture (reproduce) that wonderful feeling of unrestricted and nuanced forward momentum in the music while others reproduce music with varying degrees of a feeling akin to the feeling of driving on the highway with your left foot on the brake.
As for cost, you may not get what you pay for, but you certainly don't get what you don't pay for. As someone else said.
If your turntable does not have a frictionless cushion of compressed air or mag-lev, in 3D, that friction is causing noise and you can hear it. Vanity - no. Money - yes.
Biggest improvement after being sure the preamp load matches the cartridge, is to put it in a sealed lined box suspended. Reducing acoustic feedback does wonders. Sitting on a shelf between the speakers is about the worst place for it.
Speed control helps as my friends who are musicians claim most LPs are not cut at the correct speed and pitch is off. I am not a musician so I can't tell if an A is 440 or 441. Some can.
Back in the day, I ran a Thorens I modified with a Grace arm. Platter was filled with plumbers putty. Sorbothane mat. We compared it to a friends SP-12 and a SOTA. Once set up, no difference. The Linn was a pain to get set correctly. I hope new tables are better. I think the mass I added to the Thorens really helped in speed consistency. Oh, I put the pre-amp in the base of the Thorens so I could reduce noise and control the impedances better. My own, parallel FETs diff input, se output.
Tables do seem to be a place where we go from cheap ( and sound like it) to half decent but cheap, to very good, well engineered but affordable, to silly ego mega-buck that usually sit out to impress friends and are never played.
Yea, a lot of early CDs were transcribed with first generation 14-bit Sony's and the engineers had not learned the medium yet. But, I would rather have less than perfect sound than to miss all that great music.
.05% of 33.33 rpm is 0.01666 rpm. I doubt any turntable one can buy is accurate within +/-.01666 rpm, but I do agree that absolute speed accuracy is overrated. Rather, speed constancy is what differentiates among turntables, the capacity to hold speed constant despite stylus drag and groove tortuosity (which of course does add to stylus drag). This is one of many reasons why turntables sound different from one another, and it's folly to think otherwise.
A perfect TT has no sound. It measures vibrations and that is probably what you consider lively. If it is perfectly isolated, then you have to look at the internal noise it makes. Saying eliminating that, they are all the same, is a ridiculous statement. Eliminating that is what separates them.
IMHO, the speed consistency is second to vibration and easier to achieve. I would challenge anyone to detect a .01-.05% speed variation.
The thing you have to do is eliminate the vibration where the stylus touches the groove, so the cartridge an arm can do their jobs. The TT has to not add to it.
Ossicle, noticed you referenced "steady enough". What I have experienced recently is a discernable improvement in "steady", and it is readily apparent when looking at the strobe used to check for speed. And the liveliness, while not being overly apparent is there to some degree. What has changed however is the solidity of the presentation. Musical noted are vibrations and to increase the accuracy of the vibrations results in substantial benefits. So IMO the turntable in many ways is critical in the presentation. It has resulted in the impression that the music is really there. Loving it. Best upgrade ever.
The first years were very bad sound, it was why it really take improvement before i like cd...
But a bad turntable as most cheap were in a living room was not my liking too...
I go with cd the years it was not too much atrocious... 😊 My priorities was BUYING many albums it was more easy with cd...
I did not have any other choices... Cd were more cheap and easy to buy for me in classical...
Anybody knows that the cd beginnings were atrocious , even me....Anybody can listen to the diffrence between digital sound and vinyl....But this diffrence decrease litlle by little... Not completely but enough to make cd listenable with a good cd player...
But i never go back to turntable....I did not need to ... I did not have no more vinyl at the times...
for the last decade and more cd listening is no more a plague...
By the way i trust mike lavigne costly system and acoustic room and for him vinyl is better then cd at the end post line...
It does not means that no audiophile experience is possible with cd...
Acoustic of room in my knowledge matter more today than vinyl and cd difference...
All is a matter of everyone convenience.... I own 10,000 albums cd or files...How many vinyl do you have ? 😊
for books it is the same... it is better to own real paper books for many reason than ereader... But i sell all my paper books for convenience... Too much place...
it is better for memory to read a paper book and more easy to come back to it at will...
Nevermind i was in the obligation to stop after many multi thousand books in two or three rooms ...I own only 500 paper books now...
I feel the difference between reading on a digital reader or paper as i sense the diffrence between analog and digital...
but life is a trade-off set of choices...
You dont keep 20,000 books till you are dead nor 10,000 musical vinyls...
When i was way younger i must choose between buying books or vinyl albums... I need more the books... And anyway i was listening Bach all day long it is not costly... 😊
Then when cd arrived i begun music with cd buyings...
But it seems you’re saying that one required a good acoustic, by which I assume you mean a good listening room, to divine the difference between early RBCDs and vinyl. In my opinion there’s no listening space bad enough to obscure the vast gulf between them. Classical music was most mutilated on RBCD, as opposed to other genres. Massed brass or string passages sounding like the crumpling of cellophane.
But it seems you’re saying that one required a good acoustic, by which I assume you mean a good listening room, to divine the difference between early RBCDs and vinyl. In my opinion there’s no listening space bad enough to obscure the vast gulf between them. Classical music was most mutilated on RBCD, as opposed to other genres. Massed brass or string passages sounding like the crumpling of cellophane.
I just said that cheap turntable with no acoustic room and cd were not so far apart...
I disliked the first cd , they were not good but at least they did not pop at first listening and were more convenient and it was my only cheap way into music anyway and all classical goes into cd release more than vinyl release with the passing years...The return of vinyl is mostly a pop music phenomenon...I listened mostly classical almost exclusively...
There was more classical in cd than in vinyl release in no time...
i did not have money for good turntable anyway and a good acoustic was completely out of my understanding at the times...As it is even today for most people in audio...😊
Mahgister, if you preferred early RBCDs to vinyl as it was ca mid-1980s, then just to begin with, we are miles apart. I found early RBCDs to be so odious that I could not stand to hear them even in someone else’s house, let alone in mine.
I had a Lynn also.....it sounded airy and dimensional, weak bass in my system but was in need of constant adjustment. You have to hear the component in your house on your equipment to make an informed value judgement. Even the table the turntable sits on and the floor that the table sits on makes a great difference.
I had a Lynn also.....it sounded airy and dimensional, weak bass in my system but is in need of constant adjustment. You have to hear the component in your house on your equipment to make an informed value judgement. Even the table the turntable sits on and the floor that the table sits on makes a great difference.
Dear @ossicle2brain : " between the imperfections of vinyl and the cutting etc the noise or sound of almost any decent turntable is not heard when the music is playing "
Well, here I disagree a " little ": first because you can't aisle any TT ( sound devepoved by ) and second because it depends not only by caRTRIDGE/TONEARM BUT THE ROOM/SYSTEM QUALITY resolution LEVELS.
@ossicle2brain You have pointed out the points I made a concern for myself to attempt to improve upon many years ago.
My journey took me to the point that I was having Platter Spindle Bearing Interfaces optimised using the original housing to undergo modification.
That lead on to the complete Bearing Housing being swapped out for a new design one on a certain Brand of TT.
I have more recently reverted back to having other TT's have their original Bearing Housing modified, but there are now new ideas evolving that will mean new bearing housings are to be produced for my 'go to' TT.
The efforts have certainly improved centricity of the Spindle Rotations and when the parts are bespoke produced for each Housing Spindle, the run off measurements are much improved over the OEM.
Unfortunately if very low microns being recorded are to be goal as a measurement, then the original bearing designs are not able to cut it, a rethink and substantial materials are required to produce the redesign.
At present there is a lot on offer to minimise the impact of non-centricity of the Album, and reduce the fluctuations that can be detected in the speed.
An off board - standalone strobe will quickly show speed fluctuations due to eccentric rotations.
Hydrodynamic Lubrication is a almost impossible condition to maintain within the bearing housing when working with a typical journal bearing design. It is strongly suggested metal/metal contact will occur, this occurrence equates to noise and over time wear of a sacrificial parts metal, resulting in abrasive dust as an interface.
Removing metal/metal contact, as a result of exchanging parts, has a major improvement on the noise produced at the time of Spindle and Sacrificial parts coming into contact, the method certainly removes concerns for abrasive dust as well.
Mahgister, if you preferred early RBCDs to vinyl as it was ca mid-1980s, then just to begin with, we are miles apart. I found early RBCDs to be so odious that I could not stand to hear them even in someone else’s house, let alone in mine.
Ossicle, Like I and someone else said, you have a lot to learn about turntables. This is not to say that I think you have to spend $50K to hear differences among turntables, or even $25K, or even $10K. Anyway, your position is weakening; you just wrote "almost any decent turntable". That implies you concede that some decent turntables sound different from other decent turntables. Finally, of course there is something "wrong" when you can "hear" a TT. That’s the point.
Does a unmodulated groove or blank record make noise? Yes. It makes far more noise than any bearings on a decent turntable. In fact sounds like bearing noise. Or the ocean. The vinyl is never perfect. Then, is the album perfectly concentric? Is the hole precisely in the middle? It often isn’t. If not the speed is off.
In addition any small warpage of the vinyl causes sound changes.
I stand by my statement that any "turntable" (not the tone arm/cartridge which is light years more important to sound) that has a sound means that there is something wrong it.
In addition, between the imperfections of vinyl and the cutting etc the noise or sound of almost any decent turntable is not heard when the music is playing.
The placebo bias is strong with this turntable thing. The expensive ones sound better because we expect them to and they have great tone arms and cartridges.
It is interesting to someone like me with no turntable since 45 years ago to read this thread...
I was irritated by my turntable and the bad vinyl album i was listening too 45 five years ago ...
I discarded my system till cd entered the place... And bad turntable in room with no acoustic was not better than cd primitive system when i begun...
Now reading this i am very pleased to not deal with the very complex problem created by vinyl and turntable...
I understand those who enjoy it for sure...There is a difference and i dont doubt it but not so great now with new tech......
I had so much hard time with room acoustic and how to figure it out ... But you can create a small room acoustic with no money... I dont think that a great turntable experience will be possible with no money to invest in vinyl albums and in turntable platter, cartridge and needle coontrol... this is why i am not interested personally...
Audiophile experience under 1000 bucks excluded turntable and vinyl albums for cost reason...
but few people here need and want a 1000 bucks audio system i think and even think that it is possible for one to be more than only good... 😊😁😉
And any "liveliness" experience , nevermind the gear is experienced through room acoustic if the room make it possible or not.... I imagine a 10,000 bucks turntable can do it better than a cheap one but in a bad room it will be not optimal at all...
@terry9 …”As I understand it, ’lively’ is the opposite of ’dead’. I hear ’dead’ as resonance free, dull, which is bad in a piano and good in a turntable, I hear turntable ’liveliness’ as accentuated high frequency which makes everything sound sharp, as in jagged.”
Thanks. That is what I was looking for… different perspectives so I can figure it out. That is good. I’ll need to think about that and see how it fits in to my experience… but, I think you are right.
@ghdprentice yep I am only a few years behind you. I bought my Linn Axis in the mid 80s in order to preserve my sizable investment in records at the time when CDs broke. I’ve bought many more albums since. They are fun to collect. In recent years I play a record once and convert to digital for my digital music library. I added Qobuz recently and have not played a record since, though I still have many records not available on Qobuz that will surely get played again. It’s all good. Who ever said what we do has to be rational? There is still no real substitute for being able to hold a record sleeve in your hand. 👍
All turntables make noise to varying degrees, and we can hear it. That noise, however small, excites the stylus.
How small in practical terms? Well, I can hear the bearings in my 1.8W precision AC motor, whether the motor is energized or not. That’s with a 45kg platter.
As I understand it, ’lively’ is the opposite of ’dead’. I hear ’dead’ as resonance free, dull, which is bad in a piano and good in a turntable, I hear turntable ’liveliness’ as accentuated high frequency which makes everything sound sharp, as in jagged.
Every time I’ve made a big jump, like conventional bearings to air, or MM to Koetsu, the most obvious thing is a ’loss’ of high frequency. Then I notice that voices sound more like people I know, piano concerti sound more like the piano upstairs, and so on. It sounds ’dead’ for a few hours, and then I realize that it’s more natural.
But then again, that’s just my usage of the term, which may be idiosyncratic.
Well. When I started this I never thought I would get any posts that claimed turn tables make no difference. Well, you just never know.
Yes @mapmanit is a hundred year old technology, but I have been using it for over sixty years. The fact that competitive or better sound still comes from analog is mind boggling. I am a big digital advocate… but also am 71 years old… so it is fun to play with analog. As I think you may remember my analog and digital ends sound virtually the same… and since I have a largely pristine collection of 2,000 vinyl albums… it’s fun to play with.
It’s a 100+ year old technology. People keep throwing money at the problems trying to mitigate them all as best as possible. It’s prettty insane! Go digital streaming! Much less problematic and way more versatile.
I think there are a lot of people who believe as you do that a TT has no sound and that it’s just a spinning platter.
Here’s the thing. A TT is a combination of a plinth, a motor/drive system, a bearing, a platter and may or may not include some form is suspension. That tiny little stylus, being dragged through the groove of the record, is prone to all kinds of external disturbances. How all the elements of the turntable work together, will determine what kind, and how great those disturbances are. And seeing as how we are dealing with the tiniest of movements, with the tiniest of electrical signals that are being amplified an insane amount, any tiny disturbance, is going to magnified along with the signal.
An ideal turntable, will have no sound. An ideal turntable will impose no disturbances to the movement of the stylus in the groove. A turntable that imposes no disturbances, is very difficult, and costly to manufacture. A turntable with no sound, will allow the cartridge and tonearm to do their jobs with far greater accuracy. A turntable with no sound will let you hear the music more clearly, with better drive, better attack, channel separation, soundstage etc.
All that to say, turntables have a sound they impose on the signal, regardless of how good the tonearm and cartridge are.
" Turntables have no sound. " in theory I agree because if the main target in any TT is to spin with accurate speeds it’s true too that that sensitive microphone name it cartridge pick up any TT self developed resonance/vibration/noise ( no matters where coming. ) and all those TT developments not only affect to the cartridge it self but in other way too the tonearm and in between these 3 items combination send by the IC cable the " whole " signal to the phono stage.
The relationship between those rig links is full of feedback in between and we have not forget the close relationship between the TT platter/mat with with the LP and the stylus tip tracking where exist a feedback from that platter/mat that the disturb the the cantilever/stylus movements and that feedback change inside each track due that the groove modulations during play back are different for the stylus tip.
Nothing is perfect in the Audio world and certainly way imperfect in the analog audio.
Your " liveliness " is only what happens in your room/system and you can be sure that can’t be duplicated/mimic in other room/system with the same TT.
Too many parameters down there for we can aisle not the TT alone but any of those whole TT self vibrations/noise/resonances.
Thank you. Yes, “may be more resolving and dynamic”. That sounds like the gist of the term. And something a little different than what I heard. Thank you for your thoughts on the subject, that is what I was eliciting.
It's impossible to "prove" either side of this debate, because there is a subjective element that cannot be removed from the equation, although I don't know that intrinsic SQ differences among turntables (excluding the obvious differences among tonearm/cartridge pairings) that I and others hear could not be measured, if one knew what to measure. As things stand, we can agree to disagree.
The only sound turntables make that I am aware of are distortion in the form of wow and flutter and noise in the form of rumble and hum .
Otherwise anything you hear off the source material at hand comes from the cartridge and how it interacts with the tonearm. That is a combo of signal noise and distortion that can vary as well.
Put that all together and some setups may be more resolving and dynamic which I suppose could result in what could be called “liveliness” if one chooses, But otherwise it is merely a subjective adjective applied to what one hears and could mean anything to anyone. A good setup would tend to be more lively sounding I would say.
Turntables have no sound. If they do there is something wrong with it. If the definition of "turntable" includes the tone arm and cartridge then yes. To be fair I think that is what the OP is talking about and I’m just being argumentative as usual.
Literally all a basic turntable does is spin a record at a steady enough 33 1/3 speed with low enough noise like rumble and hum. If it sounds lively it may be spinning faster. Unlikely but possible.
The placebo and expectation bias is very strong when listening to a fifty thousand dollar piece of engineering art.
I believe Rega tables also get tagged with the "Lively" description. Having listened extensively to a Rega P10 with a Lyra Atlas (recently updated to lambda), this means dynamics to me. A jump factor particularly in the midrange and upper frequencies as opposed to low end groove or bass line foundation. But like many audio terms, it is easier to hear than to describe. Also, I have not listened to a LP12 in too long so I could be totally off base here.
@ghdprenticeMany years ago, I was caught in the entrapment of HiFi and was an individual with an obsession. Such a mindset in my life, is no fun, and the joy is not to found in listening to music on audio equipment.
That person is long gone, and good riddance to such a waste of energy.
I severed my usual participation in HiFi and found a way to build on a social structure around the hobby, I have been working with this attitude for over 20 years now.
I have never looked back and regularly spend time in the company of others who are quite capable to create thought provoking demo's, as a result of where their interests take them. I have been quite instrumental in encouraging investigations as well, where the end experience has been much more tan the sum of the parts..
I am pleased the passed on experience has been a info, that you feel is worthwhile learning more about.
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