Dear @mglik : I owned and own vintage Grado cartridges and till today no one of them ( including " the tribute ". ) disappointment under playing by its quality level performance.
" Optimized Transmission Line " was what Joseph Grado named to a totally new kind of design inside his first MC and latter on inside the Signature models as the XTZ and other models on this series.
That kind of new design dissapeared when those vintage Signature Z series gone out of the market but the white papers about were inside Grado company. Any one that lisened the XTZ knows that today could be one of the best cartridge quality performer out there. Maybe your Epoch 3 shares that cartridge motor design that’s a unique one and only Grado has it.
Btw, about that special ellipthical stylus in the Epoch 3 could be one of two other than ellipthical stylus shape used by Grado but unfortunatelly came only with a name but no description of the tip shape. One was named just: Grado tip and comes in one of the Grado samples I still own and the other is the one in the Signature family of the XTZ named: Twin Tip and maybe this is that " special ellipthical " in the Epoch 3 and I think this because today there is nothing really NEW on top stylus tip shapes: everything we can imagine stays already in the market.
Anyway, again thinking loud.
R.
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@mglik : Btw, do you know which the differences between the Grado ellipthical stylus shape ( that says is a " special "/unique elliptical tip. ) and normal ellipthical stylus samples?.
Obviously is working great but where is different is the question. Only curiosity.
R.
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@rauliruegas
You have now posted thousands of words on this thread over the past month but have still not answered the OP's question.
Did you understand the original question.
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Dear @mglik : Channel D is a very good full SS design and wil makes your Grado shines better than ever. Good move.
Then you already " married " with the Grado. Must be something unique and obviously something to experienced.
Btw, along with a better phono stage unit I told you that could be a good idea to mate/test the Grado with a different tonearm and there are several options about like Reed.
Now, could be a quality improvement with a different tonearm?, wel I don't know for sure it's a " move " that has to past the listening tests. There is no other way but if you try it could or not find out that quality improvement level performance and if not then you confirm that what you have rigth now is the " one " couple in your system and that meet your Music/audio priorities.
Only thinking " loud ".
R.
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Dear @mikelavigne : " amp linearity is not an issue. "
Certainly not and that was not my point.. You missed the main issue in my post. You said that at the same SPL the cartridge shows higher " signal energy ".
A good amp ( like yours. ) just amplify what comes at its input with almost no modifications. The amp does not knows if are incoming musical information only or if that musical information comes with high integrated/added distortions ( developed in other system chain's links: cartridge/tonearm/phono stage and the like. The system electronics can't fix those distortions and the best it can do is to reproduce it that way. ) and when amplify the digital signal this signal truly comes with way lower added distortions and that's why lower watts peacks when the analog/cartridge high distortions provoque those high watts peacks. The higher the distortions coming in to the incoming signal amp the higher the amp watts peacks.
This is not just an argument but something you have to understand because you just did not what I explained before.
" digital rounds off the top of the transient compared to the analog..."
that goes totally against what normally happens that's the other way around. Almost all LP lovers make a negative critic of the HF agresiveness of digital even hardness or brithness down there. Did you directly made the digital transfer?, the latest CD came from 2013 and as almost everyone know the original Pablo recording came from sept. 1974 and you know that are a lot of analog and digital re-issues. Analogue Productions has 4 LP re-issues, I own the HQ and the original Pablo label.
R.
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@rauliruegas
i changed my mind. had something to say, so i said it. and i deserve flack for being a putz. bring it on.😀
as far as digital ’smears peaks’ what i mean is that in a relative sense, digital rounds off the top of the transient compared to the analog original. so the ’peak’ of the horn blat is rounded, does not quite get reproduced with the same level of energy, and we hear the difference as a difference in the liveness and realism. the pressing sounds ’real’. it hits you. the digital is relatively tame in direct compare. not as real life.
normally we might just relate our personal view of what we heard. but if you have a peak output device on your amps, you can read the number. and hard to argue the number. even though i know you will write another 4 paragraphs with an argument.
as far my amps distorting, not very likely. they do 450 watts into 8 ohms. the passive towers of my speakers are 97db, 7 ohm....so a very easy load. and under 40hz i have active powered bass towers with 2000 watts on each tower. amp linearity is not an issue.
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Hi Raul,
The difference between the Lyra Atlas SL and the Grado Epoch3 is pronounced and obvious. And it is especially good with my Quad 57s.
The Lyra is sold.
The Grado is orders of magnitude more ‘real” sounding.
And am buying a Channel D Seta H which seems to be the best dedicated phono stage designed specifically for MM and MI.
Grado is now testing the Seta H in order to recommend it for their Lineage Series cartridges of which the Epoch3 is the top.
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Dear @mglik : For your OP you are " biased " to your new Grado cartridge.
In the lst weeks made you a Lyra come back to listen it and makes a comparison again in between? and if yes then your Grado preference is still there?
Thank's in advance,
R.
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bdp24 - I like the way you think! Nothing I have heard beats the Reference!
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Dear @mikelavigne : I missed this post.
" nothing personal regarding my dropping out of this discussion.
i simply do not see the value to me in this thread. unfortunately a frequent Audiogon experience. "
It’s something a little " weird " that in a thread even with no personal value you posted : 19 times.
I don’t questioning you but for me any single audio thread has an inherent value. Your be-loved Studer’s were severely questioned that today are not any more a reference and was fully explained why. If I were you I will take more serious that subject and think to change all your references around your R2R units. That " think " has a value for me but not for you and is up to you.
I think that you should know by years now that the worst cartridge design to track and pick-up the higher recorded information from the LP grooves are the cantilever-less designs and even that not only bougth it that kind of cartridge design but touted on its quality performance level even that its tracking issues because it’s not only that can’t pick-up average recorded information but that additional to that those kind of cartridge designs develops higher tracking distortions and yes you are happy with. Again, is up to you.
I think that you have some level of mix-up or at least is what in this thread showed when said that digital is no reference at any reproduction step for be incomplete and in other thread you posted that’s " complete ". Additional I can’t understand what means that " complete " and you " refuse " to explain it.
You just posted , good.
Btw:
" with the Lp Dizzy’s trumpet hits 95 watt peaks on my dart 468 monoblocks. at the same SPL’s the digital hits 45 watt peaks. ,...... the peak watts are an objective measurement of signal energy. "
That’s can confirm what I said about " higher distortions " during LP tracking. That signal energy with the cartridge came with way higher distortions NOT musical information and distortons counts for those higher SPL high peacks. Yes, you love those distortions.
From there you conclude that digital " smears peacks " and truly your conclusion makes no sense .
Do you know why amplifiers can go into clipping stage. what helps to goes to that clipping stage? developed DISTORTIONS through the system ( not only in this range but mainly in the H: range. ) and in your specific case by the cartridge. Digital? well is the new reference with way lower distortion levels and for whatever reasons you listen digital the 70% of your listening time, I repeat: for whatever reasons .
and that’s what you like, fine with me.
R.
R.
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Oh, this is an easy one: The London Reference. And priced at $5295 retail, a bargain ;-) .
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i listen to Dizzy Gillespie’s Big 4 lp pressing on the DaVa Reference cartridge. then listen to a digital transfer.
with the Lp Dizzy’s trumpet hits 95 watt peaks on my dart 468 monoblocks. at the same SPL’s the digital hits 45 watt peaks. the DaVa also sounds more real and life like....but that is subjective, the peak watts are an objective measurement of signal energy.
i can cite many similar occurrences.
btw; the DaVa also surpasses other cartridges too, but not nearly by as much. just more energy.
i love digital. but it cannot do some things analog can do. it smears peaks. still sounds wonderful. but it is not the same.
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An “order of magnitude “ is generally taken to describe a 10-fold difference, so the energy storage advantage of digital over analog is thousands of orders of magnitude, but for the purpose of this thread, who gives a s**t?
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Some of my European Classical albums from the 70s and 80's are fabulously quiet and are great recordings. I can not imaging new releases being any better.
QRP (Acoustic Sounds) has succeeding in making LP surfaces that are about 10-15 dB quieter, FWIW.
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@rauliruegas , I average about two records a week or 8-9 monthly. My guess is 75% new and 25% reissue. What happens in the future is no concern of mine but I agree the era of vinyl records will end eventually, certainly by the end of this century. My wife made me buy a new Garmin watch because it has an SPO2 meter built in and it does home sleep studies. She thinks I have sleep apnea. It will also take you anywhere in the world, manage 8 different sports, the weather, traffic and your health. All this in a watch. Think where we were 100 years ago, the 1920's. Where will we be in 100 years?
@ghdprentice , Anyone who thinks vinyl records are a problem needs to go to a dump and look around. Think of mountains of used car batteries that can not be recycled and all the toxic sh-t in them. Be very careful what you wish for.
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@ghdprentice thanks for the breakdown. Based on your stated qualifications it would appear that you are in a position to know. No argument from me.
I only wondered when I think of the time factor. Iow every record ever made *could* still be played ( if not physically damaged ) so as much as 100 years of serving music.
I guess the digital era has saved us an order of magnitude of money and environmental impact. ;)
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@solypsa
Well, I have spent most of my career in IT. My first PC did not have a hard drive. I have been in charge of large data centers and implemented and been responsible for running multibillion dollar global corporations’ systems.
Digitally an album takes up 16 megabytes + or - 100%. This means you could store around 5,000 albums on one 4 tb disk drive. The environmental impact of producing 5,000 albums is huge… for one person! The environmental impact of producing one drive and servicing hundreds of thousands of people or more is minuscule. There are literally orders of magnitude differences between the two in terms of energy and environmental impact.
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Dear @mijostyn : " my own purchases it is about 50/50 LPs to digital files. "
That 50% on LP means that all those LPs were/are ndew/inedit recordings and with no re-issues? and that 50% of LPs how many bougth you by month?
Totally new LPs have several problems to appears in the market. Even that exist over 100+ pressing plants in the world many of these are small labels that over the time were and will disappears leaving only the around 10 " big " pressings plants that can't fulfill the artist/audiophiles needs of new material on LP. Pressing plants is a business and for the consumer prices does not goes to high the plants needs to presses 10K+ samplers of each new LP title. In the last 10 years the LP prices gones higher and higher and this tendency is far away to dissapears but the other way around: will be higher alaways.
Other problem is that vinyl is not a friendly build material ( petroleum. ) with the erath enviroment and will disappears sooner or latter. From some years now some small or maybe not so small plants are trying that the sources of that vinyl change it for other new material friendly with the enviroment and as a fact there are a few options that could or could not help about because those new materials needs to pass the " test time " of playing.
So, in a few years your 50% will goes to maybe 5% or just zero. So enjoy what you have.
R.
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mijostyn Try to lighten up just a bit and enjoy the illusion, ah?
My point was merely to enjoy listening and enjoy what you have. No excuses there.
I have never heard a HiFi that sounds lifelike. Only brief glimpses of light and occasional unveilings
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@r_f_sayles "our ears and tastes are too varied."
That is a lame excuse. More accurate is always better. If I play a hi fidelity recording of an oncoming train on a table radio you will not jump out of the way. You will know instantly that it is a recording of a train played on a rather low fi device. If I put a hi fidelity recording on a state of the art system and waltz you into the room blindfolded you will wind up cowering in a corner when the train passes by. There is accurate and there is everything else. When dealing with a group of highly accurate systems capable of real output at 18 Hz, issues of taste may arise but, as Aryton Senna da Silva said, "second is just the first of the losers." When dealing with less than stellar systems taste becomes more of an issue relative to what defects you can live with. Hiding behind cable elevators and fancy cables will not help
It is chasing accuracy that makes this difficult and therefore entertaining. Viva the difficulty.
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@rauliruegas , no argument from me. Only in countries where people have large amounts of expendable income is the LP going to persist.
@atmasphere , modern 64 bit floating point processors can lose a bunch of bits before distortion becomes any issue close to being audible. This is more important than just volume controls. In order to do "room control" effectively you have to be able to cut digital volume as well as boost it at various frequencies. This has to be done without adding distortion on one hand and overloading amplifiers and speakers on the other. The technology is now fully up to the task. The new DEQX Premate series should be amazing on all accounts judging from what I have read.
I have never heard a silent LP, quiet ones yes, silent no. Also, LPs are not reliably quiet. Some are throw away noisy from the very start. Dust? Contaminated PVC? Recycled PVC? Bad handling? It is a very fragile process. As long as you have a backup disc digital files are 100% reliable in terms of playability and noise levels. You can not get a file with a scratch on it. This says nothing about the music.
Records may be improving overall but there is such wide variation in quality it is hard to see or hear. Some of my European Classical albums from the 70s and 80's are fabulously quiet and are great recordings. I can not imaging new releases being any better.
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The best cartridge in the world is the one you continually go back to for the music. There is no best.
The chain and setup are too complex to make that evaluation.
Our ears and tastes are too varied.
Enjoy what you have. Keep listening
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Server farms are able to store stuff at a fraction of the cost and energy of manufacturing and distributing physical media. One of the many things driving their build. Finally the distraction of forests for paper… oil for plastic disks is reduced by online stuff.
Are you certain of this math? I'm not, curious is all....
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@atmasphere
It is fun putting on an LP. Mine have almost no surface noice.
I have storage space on my streamers. I use it for about an hour a year. Wifi is only likely to get more reliable.
I am pretty sure the single file on the cloud serving tens of thousands or millions of users. It consumes many times less energy than the same thousands of users, buying the vinyl albums or CDs… and having built space to store them.
Server farms are able to store stuff at a fraction of the cost and energy of manufacturing and distributing physical media. One of the many things driving their build. Finally the distraction of forests for paper… oil for plastic disks is reduced by online stuff.
Data storage is becoming a utility. If something happens to your Qobuz account, in a couple minutes you can be up and running with a free month of Tidal. Besides, you have your vinyl. So, you are set.
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@ghdprentice I agree on all counts. I would prefer to not have all that space taken up by so many LPs, but OTOH I'm also a bit uncomfortable with having all my music on the cloud, since this means a server farm (which can take as much power as a small city) has to be running 24/7 to maintain my music collection. If something were to happen to my online account, all of a sudden that music is gone. I don't like the idea of wasting all that energy when I'm not at home or when I'm asleep; with all the different hacks that keep showing up (and outright online attacks) I just feel better having the LPs available. Old school, I know.
Also its fun to put the LP on and have guests think that is really a CD because they play without 'surface artifacts' which I found out 35 years ago are often caused by the phono preamp rather than the LP surface.
I had some guests over this last weekend and I noticed that they were all about the sound and didn't have any thoughts about the media. That's how it should be.
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@atmasphere
Sure, vinyl advances… but it is a loosing battle. Increasingly it becomes a question of your playback choices… and a question on your time frame. Adding the convenience… more and more people will put their money into digital… especially the MP3 folks… they will try better digital before attempting analog. All this amounts to a diminishing market for analog.
If I had an extra $100K right now I would definitely throw a good portion of that at analog. No question that will buy me the best playback… but I am 70 years old. If I was 45 years old or younger… I would invest in digital… it will just keep getting better and not require me personally collecting stuff that takes up space.
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That might well be the case but there’s absolutely no denying that there were some fabulous sounding LPs made back as far as at least the 1950s.
The best sound that I have ever heard came from one such LP.
It had that spooky ’Is it real?’ soundstage that I’ve yet to hear from any digital.
I would love to see digital finally fulfill its potential on commercial releases, especially regarding dynamic range and transference of classic analogue masters etc, but I’m resigned to the fact that market forces will never allow such a thing to happen.
😀 If I want to demo the dynamic range of a stereo, the LP I put on is the RCA Soria series Verdi Requiem, side 1 track two, Dies Irae. Not a CD and not some digitally recorded LP.
The simple fact is that the LP has a lot more dynamic range than most people think. It may not be as much as the CD, but if you want to talk about undistorted high resolution dynamic range, it has more. I know people are likely tired of hearing stuff like this, but you have two phenomena for why this is so:
The first is that recordings made for digital release have a high expectation of being played in a car (unlike the LP). So due to that industry expectation, which has nothing to do with genre BTW, the digital release is usually compressed.
The second is that if you really want to hear 16 bit digital (Redbook) at its best, the recording should be normalized so that the loudest part of any track is 0VU. As the signal strength goes down, more and more bits have to be turned off. So when you get to -45dB (which is pretty quiet) there’s not enough bits for the signal to be undistorted (which, in digital parlance, is usually referred to as ’less resolution’). So to get maximum resolution the recording is normalized.
Of course the LP has noise so its a bit of a tradeoff. Anyway, that Soria series recording goes from a whisper with which the noise floor competes to putting your amps in danger of extreme overload if you try to play it at a lifelike level. Lots of fun- big bass too 😁
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@atmasphere
Well... The LP has continued to advance as well. QRP (Acoustic Sounds) sorted out that vibration was the primary cause of surface noise in LPs and so installed damping to reduce it- and makes vastly quieter LPs as a result, rivaling the noise floor of Redbook in that the electronics become the noise floor rather than the LP itself.
That might well be the case but there's absolutely no denying that there were some fabulous sounding LPs made back as far as at least the 1950s.
The best sound that I have ever heard came from one such LP.
It had that spooky 'Is it real?' soundstage that I've yet to hear from any digital.
I would love to see digital finally fulfill its potential on commercial releases, especially regarding dynamic range and transference of classic analogue masters etc, but I'm resigned to the fact that market forces will never allow such a thing to happen.
The demand for sonic excellence just isn't there, and I suspect the suppliers have no stomach for putting out reference quality digital recordings of vintage material out there either.
Why would they, when they can continue to milk that cow indefinitely?
For me, as things stand, digital only really displays its forte with formats such as audiobooks where it reigns supreme.
Everywhere else it's only merely acceptable.
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Dear @mijostyn : " my own purchases it is about 50/50 LPs to digital files. "
What does that say? , its says what you states.
Mijo, there are different contexts where any one could be rigth. Normally audiophiles aroun sites as Agon, wbt, ve, ak and the like bougth digital LP re-issues and some ( the smaller ) new realeases and normally we buy through: ed, md or as. You can go to all those sites and read that the people that buy LPs normally are re-issues.
USA is only one of de world countries and belongs to one of five world continents. I want to put an example of wht'a happening in my country where exist around 35KK of young people and where just does not exist LP stores and the audio dealers you can count with the fingers of your hands and nothing more. The majority of those people not even know of the existence of vinyl and almost all use streaming to listen the MUSIC they like. You can see in the subway or in the street those young gentlemans listening MUSIC through they cell phones through apps as tiktok, spotify, prime amazon and the like.Do you think that in the countries of Africa exist " hundreds " of LP stores? however the KKK people there listen MUSIC through streaming/apps digital and you can go around other world Continents and you will see.
Well the majority of the population in the world are those kind of people that does not cares about analog rig but only " listen " and they does in that way. Along that there are thousands of " hackers " that listen by free as many world plattforms where you can listen by free and no suscription at all.
In that whole context my post is not false in any way. Period.
Nothing is exactly as Billboard says.
In reality I don't care on that issue because from some time now, like it or not, digital is the King no matters what.
R.
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Absolutely. The resurgence happened in response to the unending disappointment in the CD. But at last digital… both CD and more importantly streaming has reached equal or better (high Rez streaming) sound quality in many component combinations and will continue advancing. Without the sound quality advantage vinyl just becomes nostalgic.
Well... The LP has continued to advance as well. QRP (Acoustic Sounds) sorted out that vibration was the primary cause of surface noise in LPs and so installed damping to reduce it- and makes vastly quieter LPs as a result, rivaling the noise floor of Redbook in that the electronics become the noise floor rather than the LP itself.
Then there have been advances in amplifiers; before I sold off my LP mastering system I was really thinking of replacing the original mastering amplifiers (which were state of the art in their day) with some class D modules, perhaps our own, as they are more stable, more reliable, lower noise and lower distortion.
Finally the real limitations of the LP are in playback, not record; tonearms and cartridges have continued to improve. So while this is all incremental, saying the LP doesn't have the sound quality is a bit of a stretch- its still got potential just as digital does.
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@mijostyn
+1
Absolutely. The resurgence happened in response to the unending disappointment in the CD. But at last digital… both CD and more importantly streaming has reached equal or better (high Rez streaming) sound quality in many component combinations and will continue advancing. Without the sound quality advantage vinyl just becomes nostalgic.
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@atmasphere , I agree! I by current music on LP all the time. There is plenty of money to be made on LPs but it is no where what it use to be in the 70's.
My children love music. They turn me on to new music all the time like Black Midi. They have absolutely no interest in LPs. They represent the vast majority of young people. If I were a betting man I would bet LPs will be dead within 50 years. I won't be here to see it. I spin records because I have been doing it all my life from the age of 4 and like most humans I hate change. If I look at my own purchases it is about 50/50 LPs to digital files. What does that say?
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For every one person who buys an LP 10,000 people buy a digital file.
@mijostyn
That may well be. I see it slightly differently, which is this:
In reality it’s not a LP come back. What exist is a LP recording manufacturers making huge money mainly with re-issues and yes exist people that for curiosity go inside the whole LP " mess ".
Apparently the LP sells well enough that record stores exist and make a living selling them. That economic can't be ignored.
New titles (not reissues) are being pressed all the time. So the above quote from Raul is false. Most of the market has nothing to do with audiophiles- its record companies selling LPs to kids. Or old people like me that like new music. Heck, I just bought some Lana Del Ray LPs off ebay and they aren't reissues :)
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I shall now answer the OP's question. The best cartridge in the world is always the one I have mounted at the moment.
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@dover
"But the apex of lunacy arrived when he advertised a "real" Dynavector Karat Nova 13D here on audiogon with the cartridge mounted in the unique headshell upside down."
it's nice to see credit still being given where its due.
When it comes to audio ingenuity often goes hand in hand with innovation.
Unfortunately, most of the time, not always successfully.
@mikelavigne
i simply do not see the value to me in this thread.
Well, these 'what's best' questions have never once led to a definitive answer in my opinion.
If only they did, wouldn't life be so much simpler?
I remember back in the day when there were only 3 turntables to consider, only 3 amps to bother with, and just half a dozen speakers.
Or so I was led to believe, until eventually it all turned out to be opiniated rubbish of course.
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Raul,
nothing personal regarding my dropping out of this discussion.
i simply do not see the value to me in this thread. unfortunately a frequent Audiogon experience. and honestly the Audiogon interface is very frustrating to navigate compared to any other forum. too much noise, not enough signal, to hold my attention.
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@rauliruegas , I hope you did not take my Mexican comment seriously. But, to get a French Cab better than Say a Duckhorn or Rombauer you would have to spend a fortune. For most people the above wines are a fortune. The problem for us is much of the best French wines stay in France. We shall see as the wife and I are going to cycle through Provence next Summer. And, buy the way, everything the French know they were taught by the Italians and my absolute favorite wine is the Antenori Tignanello. I do not think you can touch a bottle for less than $125 now.
Digital rules, but analog is fun (if you have the money.)
As for our ears I disagree with that analogy. Yes, the individual hair cells are an on or off proposition. Each one contributes to a voltage. The Voltages are added up to make an analog wave form. They do not trigger a one or a two. If anything it is more similar to pulse width modulation.
@dover , Speak for yourself. I can listen to a fax tone for hours:-)
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Without being able to measure the response, are you sure that you are finding the Lyra better meets the loading of your phono input? You might want to explore both capacitive and resistance loadings on your cartridges to determine if, for example, you can make your older cartridge sound more like the Lyric. From my own experience with moving coil cartridges over the years, getting extended flat frequency response without any/much high frequency peaking below 20-25k seem to be a key to "more realistic" sound, including kettle drums and cymbals.
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Actually the brain is an analogue processor, so I would assume that if one were brainless, then indeed digital may be best option. However for most of us, with more than the one brain cell, we find great pleasure in listening to analogue.
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Dear @mijostyn : The sound that goes inside our ears is an analog signal that we can't listen because is analog and that's why is in the internal ears an ADC. Read again here:
With the hair cells, we come to the end of the audio path inside the ear. Hair cells are neurons, and the purpose of the outer hair cells is to convert the mechanical vibrations that come from their cilia into nerve signals. Such signals are binary (all or nothing), and seem to be completely decorrelated from the analogue signals to which they correspond. In other words, they’re digital signals, and the inner hair cells are analogue‑to‑digital converters. ""
Those hair cells are the transducers, binary transducer and not zeros and ones. As you said our brain has no idea of those numbers but only the binary transduced information.
No one ( even scientific. ) knows for sure and in deep how our organism function. Medical specialist have an idea about founded in all the years in the University and day by day experiences.
The in deep brain whole operation step by step till today is almost unknowed. The scientific say that the human been brain is knowed at no more of the 20% of its whole real operation.
Any kind of live life in our planet but specialy the human been is almost " miraculous ".
Think for a moment of a small muscle/pump named heart that is running ( as all other organs. ) and can do it for even over 100 years with out stopped not even by 2-3 minutes to rest and is a muscle.
Which machine or item made it by the human beens could do it and with out maintenance services? it function by electricity and we don't have a cable but its wroks in wireless status.
R.
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Dear @mijostyn : In reality it’s not a LP come back. What exist is a LP recording manufacturers making huge money mainly with re-issues and yes exist people that for curiosity go inside the whole LP " mess ". Not really a come back with 100% analog recording proccess and that is their way of living, nothing wrong with that. Take advantage of those audiophiles that like to own every single kind of " new " re-issue of the MUSIC they like and that’s all. Maybe never will disappears due that exist millions of gentlemans around the world with huge LP collections, I don’t know what could be happens when all those kind of generation ( where some of us belongs. ) die.
Today LP alternative for new people is really expensive to achieve a quality near digital today CDP that any one can buys for 400 bucks and the CD’s does not set you back 120 dollars . As I said: a " mess ".
You are wrong, as a country we don’t hate any one. In all countries exist every kind of people but no we hate not any foreigner people only because is foreigner or from USA. Btw, remember that America is all our Continent that is a set of different countries and USA as México are part of them, you as me are Americans becaus ewe belongs to the American Continent even that I don't born in USA but México or other different country in this Continent.
Btw, till today USA/México/Aregentina or Chile red wines can’t compete with the best French wines or Spain ones ( in all those named countries are very good wines but away from the untouchable French/Spain top ones. ). Of course that the best European red wines has a really high price tag but to really enjoy it we have to have an experienced " taste " about. It’s not only about money but knowledge level, just as audio home system reproduction: true knowledge level is the name of the game.
R.
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I had a customer who was phobic and often listened whilst checking his prostate. He often gave seat of the pants opinions on sound quality. Perhaps you could explain is he listening in analogue or digital ?
How many bits on that digit? 😂
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@atmasphere , For every one person who buys an LP 10,000 people buy a digital file. LPs are certainly making a comeback but I have a feeling that will extinguish with the Zoomer generation. But, who knows.
@rauliruegas , you forget what my profession is. Your brain has absolutely no idea what to do with a succession of ones and zeros. We only hear digital after it is converted to analog. I know you Mexicans hate us Americans but we make some darn good wine now.
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Raul, in your own experience, what is the best sounding cartridge? Did you hear it in your own system or someone else’s? Thanks.
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Dear friends: Normally I don’t give answers to stupid posts.
Anyway I would like to comment this:
this thread is about phono cartridges that are used to track LPs: Rigth?, the forum name is " Analog " not LPs: Rigth?, almost all the audiophiles that posted in this thread if not all has an analog rig that use to listen LPs: Rigth? all of us accepted that analog rig means: TT/tonearm/cartridge ( at least and some times + phono stage preamp). Rigth? when ML posted the word " complete " was in reference to listen LPs: Rigth?, here in Agon when any one of us speaks of analog is in reference to LPs: Rigth?
In one of my last two posts any one can read:
"" Btw, normally when I talk of analog I’m reffering mainly to the LP alternative. ""
As a fact I almost never talk of tape in Agon but LPs, cartridges, tonearms, phono stages, turntables, tonearm/cartridge alignments, tonearm/cartridge parameters set up and the like.
Here I was and am talking of the quality superiority of the digital alternative over the LP alternative.
" walk into a record store to know that isn’t true- if it were true they wouldn’t sell LPs! "
and of course that can’t compete vs digital alternative NO MATTERS WHAT.
In a wine store I can buy a California Red Wine and in the same store a Chateau Lafite but the California wine can’t compete against the higher quality Lafite wine ! ! ! ? ? ?
Silly, for say the least.
R.
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More related information about hearing/sound:
"" A crucial event in the hearing process is the transduction of mechanical stimuli into electrical signals by hair cells, the sensory receptors of the internal ear. Stimulation results in the rapid opening of ionic channels in the mechanically sensitive organelles of these cells, their hair bundles. These transduction channels, which are nonselectively permeable, are directly excited by hair-bundle displacement. """
""" Bone-conducted ultrasonic hearing has been found capable of supporting frequency discrimination and speech detection in normal, older hearing-impaired, and profoundly deaf human subjects. When speech signals were modulated into the ultrasonic range, listening to words resulted in the clear perception of the speech stimuli and not a sense of high-frequency vibration. """
"""
There's Life Above 20 Kilohertz!
A Survey of Musical Instrument Spectra to 102.4 KHz
James Boyk
California Institute of Technology
Music Lab, 0-51 Caltech, Pasadena, CA 91125, USA
Tel: +626 395-4590, E-mail: boyk@caltech.edu
Home: http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~musiclab
Copyright © 1992, 1997 James Boyk. All rights reserved.
" Each musical instrument family — strings, winds, brass and percussion — has at least one member which produces energy to 40 kHz or above. Some of the spectra reach this work's measurement limit of 102.4 kHz.
Harmonics of French horn can extend to above 90 kHz; trumpet, to above 80; violin and oboe, to above 40; and a cymbal crash shows no sign of running out of energy at 100 kHz. Also shown in this paper are samples from sibilant speech, claves, a drum rimshot, triangle, jangling keys, and piano.
The proportion of energy above 20 kilohertz is low for most instruments; but for one trumpet sample it is 2%; for another, 0.5%; for claves, 3.8%; for a speech sibilant, 1.7%; and for the cymbal crash, 40%. The cymbal's energy shows no sign of stopping at the measurement limit, so its percentage may be much higher.
The spectra in this paper were found by recording each instrument's sound into a spectrum analyzer, then "prospecting" moment by moment through the recordings. Two instruments (clarinet and vibraphone) showed no ultrasonics, and so are absent here. Other instruments' sounds extended high up though at low energy. A few combined ultrasonic extension with power.
The mere existence of this energy is the point of this paper, and most of the discussion just explains why I think that the spectra are correct, within the limits described below. At the end, however, I cite others' work on perception of air- and bone-conducted ultrasound, and offer a few remarks on the possible relevance of our spectra to human perception and music recording.
Given the existence of musical-instrument energy above 20 kilohertz, it is natural to ask whether the energy matters to human perception or music recording. The common view is that energy above 20 kHz does not matter, but AES preprint 3207 by Oohashi et al. claims that reproduced sound above 26 kHz "induces activation of alpha-EEG (electroencephalogram) rhythms that persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation, and can affect perception of sound quality." [4]
Oohashi and his colleagues recorded gamelan to a bandwidth of 60 kHz, and played back the recording to listeners through a speaker system with an extra tweeter for the range above 26 kHz. This tweeter was driven by its own amplifier, and the 26 kHz electronic crossover before the amplifier used steep filters. The experimenters found that the listeners' EEGs and their subjective ratings of the sound quality were affected by whether this "ultra-tweeter" was on or off, even though the listeners explicitly denied that the reproduced sound was affected by the ultra-tweeter, and also denied, when presented with the ultrasonics alone, that any sound at all was being played.
From the fact that changes in subjects' EEGs "persist in the absence of high frequency stimulation," Oohashi and his colleagues infer that in audio comparisons, a substantial silent period is required between successive samples to avoid the second evaluation's being corrupted by "hangover" of reaction to the first.
The preprint gives photos of EEG results for only three of sixteen subjects. I hope that more will be published. ""
Abstract
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At least one member of each instrument family (strings, woodwinds, brass and percussion) produces energy to 40 kHz or above, and the spectra of some instruments reach this work's measurement limit of 102.4 kHz. Harmonics of muted trumpet extend to 80 kHz; violin and oboe, to above 40 kHz; and a cymbal crash was still strong at 100 kHz. In these particular examples, the proportion of energy above 20 kHz is, for the muted trumpet, 2 percent; violin, 0.04 percent; oboe, 0.01 percent; and cymbals, 40 percent. Instruments surveyed are trumpet with Harmon ("wah-wah") and straight mutes; French horn muted, unmuted and bell up; violin sul ponticello and double-stopped; oboe; claves; triangle; a drum rimshot; crash cymbals; piano; jangling keys; and sibilant speech. A discussion of the significance of these results describes others' work on perception of air- and bone-conducted ultrasound; and points out that even if ultrasound be taken as having no effect on perception of live sound, yet its presence may still pose a problem to the audio equipment designer and recording engineer. |
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I had a customer who was phobic and often listened whilst checking his prostate. He often gave seat of the pants opinions on sound quality. Perhaps you could explain is he listening in analogue or digital ?
Have you had the wax removed from your ears ?
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Dear @mijostyn : " we all listen in analog. "
Not really but it’s what we all always think about. Exist a lot of evidence that one way or the other our organism: brain/body " listen in " digital ".
Thtat could be controversial too because goes against what we " learned " that in reality do not learned in formal way. Take a look to this first evidence where you can read: ( the link of how the ears works will be at the end of this post:):
"" this membrane is in contact with the cilia on the top of the hair cells. There are two kinds of hair cells. The outer hair cells are the actual receptors. When the tectorial membrane moves, so does the hair on the the outer cells. This movement is then encoded into electrical digital signals and goes to the brain through the cochlear nerve. and.....................................................
With the hair cells, we come to the end of the audio path inside the ear. Hair cells are neurons, and the purpose of the outer hair cells is to convert the mechanical vibrations that come from their cilia into nerve signals. Such signals are binary (all or nothing), and seem to be completely decorrelated from the analogue signals to which they correspond. In other words, they’re digital signals, and the inner hair cells are analogue‑to‑digital converters. ""
I posted in this thread that we listen through all our body: bones, skin, hair, etc, etc , etc ( that’s why we can " listen " very deep/low bass sensing its vibrations that are communicated to the brain by high speed electric impulses ( not goes in a row/continuous way. ) by neuro transmiters/nerves terminations that exist in our whole internal/external/body and obviously some information goes to the brain trhough our ears and goes in digital way.
All our internal/external body/organs works through those high speed electric impulses. How is the communication inside the brain or how a neurologist specialist knows if something is wrong down there: normally through an encephalogram that measures the electrical activity of the brain showed in a graphic/diagram that was achieved by that digital electrical activity and same happens with our heart that works too by electrical impulses and that’s what a cardiologist looks through the chart coming from an electrocardiogram study.
There are more evidences that we don’t listen in analog but for me those is enough:
R.
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The idea of Raul and Ralph kissing is to say the least, not attractive.
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