I believe that a cartridge and a speaker, by far, contribute the most to SQ.
The two transducers in a system.
I bit the bulllet and bought a Lyra Atlas SL for $13K for my Woodsong Garrard 301 with Triplanar SE arm. I use a full function Atma-Sphere MP-1 preamp. My $60K front end. It is certainly, by far, the best I have owned. I read so many comments exclaiming that Lyra as among the best. I had to wait 6 months to get it. But the improvement over my excellent $3K Mayijima Shilabi was spectacular-putting it mildly.
I recently heard a demo of much more pricy system using a $25K cartridge. Seemed to be the most expensive cartridge made. Don’t recall the name.
For sure, the amount of detail was something I never heard. To hear a timpani sound like the real thing was incredible. And so much more!
This got me thinking of what could be possible with a different kind of cartridge than a moving coil. That is, a moving iron.
I have heard so much about the late Decca London Reference. A MI and a very different take from a MC. Could it be better? The World’s Best? No longer made.
However Grado has been making MI cartridges for decades. Even though they hold the patent for the MC. Recently, Grado came out with their assault on “The World’s Best”. At least their best effort. At $12K the Epoch 3. I bought one and have been using it now for about two weeks replacing my Lyra. There is no question that the Atlas SL is a fabulous cartridge. But the Epoch is even better. Overall, it’s SQ is the closest to real I have heard. To begin, putting the stylus down on the run in grove there is dead silence. As well as the groves between cuts. This silence is indicative of the purity of the music content. Everything I have read about it is true. IME, the comment of one reviewer, “The World’s Best”, may be true.
Here is an interesting article on SUT's. As can be seen from the plots, they are sensitive to loading on their primary and secondary windings, including capacitance. Get it wrong and their frequency response and phase curves aren't pretty. But get it right and they are pretty darn good. Obviously choosing the best curves here, but you can see plus or minus 1dB and 1 degree from 20hz to 20 kHz for the EM/1A. Further, the errors occur in the extreme bottom and top ends of the curves. Contrast this with the phase curves shown for multi driver loudspeakers, which are often orders of magnitude larger than this and typically occur in the centre of the audio band. With a well-designed and correctly loaded SUT, I don't think that we need to worry about phase errors. . https://intactaudio.com/SUT%20design.html
From my experience the combination of both the Soundsmith MI & SUT’s - not recommended. SUT’s have too many issues ( colourations and phase shifts ) to be included in any high end solution.
In my view you need a high gain phono that that does not use SUT’s and importantly has the ability to vary the loading from 400-1000 ohms to get the best out of the Soundsmith’s top MI’s.
The top four members of Soundsmith's range are all low output (0.4mV) despite being MI like the rest of the range. They are recommended for use with an MC input or SUT.
I thought we’d agreed not to judge a cartridge by its individual parts list (aluminum cantilever). Anyway, I never before heard of Suzuka or Top Wing, so thanks, Dover. Stanton and Pickering marketed LOMM cartridges many decades ago. There’s nothing new under the sun. I’m glad I still have a virginal Stanton 981LZS.
In contrast to the ever spiralling cost of phono cartridges competing for the ‘world’s best’ nomination, I noticed an ad on eBay about a ‘new’ cartridge called Fidelix MC-F1000 direct coupled MC at an ‘introduction price’ of €3,5k. In today’s high end audio universe this is now considered mid price.
As the model number and description suggest, this is a redesign of the classic Victor MC-L1000. The biggest technical difference with the Victor is the much lower source impedance of 6 ohms compared to the Victor’s 22 ohms, suggesting fewer coil windings and/or stronger magnets. At this price it could be a real giant killer. I own and cherish a Victor MC-L1000, which can still keep up with current top systems.
My understanding is that the low output is a consequence of using a very small coil to minimise capacitance and minimise inductance in the overall design - meaning the resonant frequency is very high, making the cartridge less susceptible to phase shifts in the high frequency compared to most MM's. The high frequency response in the audio band relatively unaffected by loading.
One might argue that the moving flux design by Glanz is probably more linear.
But hey if you buy the Top Wing at only US$16000, you only get a little phase shift, and for another US$17000 you can buy an LFD phono cable voiced to your requirements - I'm sure with LFD's experience in gluing bits of wire they could even put hairs on the chests of Dolly Parton.
Having said that I haven't seen a Top Wing owner that does not own other megabuck cartridges with quite different flavours, so it may not be the singular magic bullet that some folk might be hoping for.
My concern would be quality control - Fremer got a dud, and then a good one - 50% failure rate. Now if they were an Australian car manufacturer they would have blueprinted the cartridge and juiced it up before delivery for review.
@daveyf, I have developed relationships with several online stores that have handled some issues beautifully. I can highly recommend Elusive Disc, Upscale Audio and The Cable Company. All three have been very accommodating. I could not ask for better treatment.
@lewm, this is what happens when you hand the marketing over to a firm that has very limited understanding of what is happening at the sharp end. I lost interest at the site of a primitive cantilever and diamond. Raul is being comprehensive and inclusive. He knows how interested I am in alternative cartridge designs and nobody ever mentions these cartridges. The DS and the strain gauge get more air time. I really wanted to like the strain gauge and came very close to buying one but history has taught me to avoid overly impressive sounding cartridges as that first impression usually means there is something wrong. Moving on to Cherubini's String quartets highlighted the defect as a stridence in the higher frequencies that gave violins an artificial edge. I am lucky as my daughter plays the violin so I am very use to what a live one sounds like. The Hyperion sounds a lot more like my daughter's violin.
Raul, I read the Suzuka review. In one sentence, I got the impression these are Low Output Moving Magnets. How else to account for the statement that the stylus is user replaceable? But elsewhere the reviewer states he set capacitance at 300 ohms, which could just be a typo, but one that should have been edited out prior to publication. Alternatively to a LOMM, which seems unlikely, the uniqueness of the cartridge might owe to using a single magnet and coreless coils in an LOMC , but where is the brilliant invention? AT has been making amorphous core LOMCs for a while, which is probably a better idea. The reviewer also suggests that using a coreless coil makes the transduction more efficient, where the opposite is true and probably accounts for the very low output.
@rauliruegas, Sorry Raul, not a fan. A $16,000 cartridge better be using something other than an aluminum cantilever with an antique high mass stylus mounting system seen in cartridges 40 years ago because the low mass resins we use to glue them in place today were not available yet. Even the higher end DS cartridges use a better stylus mounting system than the one seen in the "Top" Wing. Yes, I really like the MSL/Seta L combination, but there are also two more top flight cartridges coming, the MC Diamond, which I know you like and the Lyra Atlas Lambda SL, which I know I'll like. Which one will I Like best? It really does not mater, but if one should fall behind I'll sell it and try another. The plan is to keep three available so that if something should happen to my financial situation I have enough cartridge to get me to the end of my life or hearing, whichever comes first.
I have been talking to Frank Schroder. He is going to make me a new CB with a Rosewood arm wand. I am going to make a new plinth for the Sota using the same species of wood. It will extend down to the surface of the granite cutting off that low frequency feedback problem I was dealing with, and it will look a lot better. I will use the exact same chiseled finger joints you see in the maple skirt which look a lot nicer than Sota's radiused off version,
I am a believer when it comes to expensive cartridge purchases to be only from a authorized dealer. In my case, after I had bought the cartridge from my local dealer, I noticed after about a week that the cantilever was skewed. My dealer agreed and took the cartridge back to the manufacturer’s rep for correction under warranty, which was done. BUT If i had bought a gray market cartridge, I believe I would have been in the cold when an issue like this occurs.
@atmasphere My experience at WBF was typical of a lot of forums that are run by hobbyists as literal soap boxes for their POV’s. I contributed a lot of content there initially, but was soon in their bad books, simply because I did NOT agree with their guru and his BS. My thread about the new Alsyvox speakers drew the most ire, mainly due to the fact that the resident horn lovers felt threatened. To that, the agenda of the owners is pretty clear. Personally, I think the while forum is now a total joke, so if that’s hyperbolic..so be it.
Dear @mijostyn : I know that rigth now you are enttilted with the very low impedance cartridges and current mode phonolinepreamps and that you really like your MSL.
Things are and I could think you already " hear "/read about Top Wing cartridges that time to time few audiophiles posted about in Agon and I just remember it and maybe is " your " time to listen it, maybe not is up to you.
Here two reviews and somewhere I read that outperforms MSL: who really knows?. First the top of the line and then the next down step:
@solypsa, Yes, I have and recently. I ordered a pellet grill from the BBQ Guys, a Memphis Grill. The crate was dented in one corner. I took a picture of the box with the delivery person standing next to it. I then dissected the crate taking pictures along the way. There was over $700 in damage. Memphis grill had the parts to me in three days I gave the itemized receipt to the the freight company and had a check two weeks later. You have to be right on top of it or you can get screwed for sure.
@atmasphere, daveyf hyperbolic? Not on your life. We all know your hearing is in the trash by 8 kHz😁
you well know that the remaining members at WBF are all buddies of Steve or worse, Ron. They all follow the same guru and believe the same old BS that the guru pushes. Horns rule, and gear that is non-resolving and as bright as the sun is looked up to, probably because these folks have lost their high frequency hearing years ago!
@daveyfI'm active over there; AFAIK I'm not on the inside there but no-one messes with me, which isn't to say we always agree. I've heard the story about inside buddies or something like that about that site before but I really don't know what that means. I've been on there nearly from its inception. I'm assuming your post above is a bit hyperbolic.
Cartridges are in their very nature fragile and the most careful of individuals has a user error within them, as we are fallible.
I not only know the Stories, I know individuals who are the Story, when a £4-5K cart' is exposed to the moment of lack of finesse, the sick feeling goes to the core, and then there is the repair bill to receive as the final bitter pill to swallow.
Encouraging individuals to experience items they may not be used to in any great capacity is not a bad thing, their confidence will grow through the disciplines being learned for the handling and the interaction.
Making an ease of access to extremely expensive fragile items, for those with a wanting skill set and lack of confidence around Cart's, such as the types assumed to be added to a selected itinerary of Cartridges as home trial demo' items.
Where the method to acquire is seemingly using mail order and forum support as the only guidance, might lead to 'ends in tears' stories, if a certain type of user takes a punt on a discounted Cart' as a Trial Period.
Finding an inroad to being able to offer a Cart' at a 'Trade Price' or 'Near As', is looking the safer bet, as the individual can seek out a Cart' that is off interest, get it demoed through a Professional Service, 'if available', and shortlist it for a time when they would like to commit to a purchase.
If when monies are to be spent, and they are still attracted to one of the items in an itinerary available from a Member of this forum, then all well and good, especially if the discounted price is covering a Warranty and Aftersales Support that is matching that from a Dealership. This seems to work, as the Buyer will have confidence in their decision being made, and not feel they are lumbered with something they are not really wanting if an unwanted damage happens.
Plenty of Permutations to be considered when devising such schemes.
Dear @daveyf : I think that the dealers/distributors need to ask the cartridge manufacturers for some kind of $upportfor have 2-3 cartridge demo samples depending where the dealer cities whre they have the store.
I think that that kind of effort could be a shared distributor/manufacturer " couple ".
One of the safe guards that my dealer used was to personally install the cartridge that I was 'borrowing' himself. This was of course possible since he is local to me. But it did away with the possibility of user error in the set up, Since I kept the cartridge, he did not have to uninstall it, but that was the plan if I had not.
I am assuming that IF I had not kept the cartridge, he would have sold it as slightly 'used', but we never got to that place, Nonetheless, for dealers to have a few 'demo' cartridges on hand, install these etc., would be good idea, albeit fairly costly and time consuming...although at the prices asked for the top flite stuff??
@mulveling, that is why you hold the cost of the cartridge in escrow. Yes, in some instances one might actually prefer the less expensive cartridge.
A cartridge screwed down tight inside it's box is virtually impossible to damage without obvious intrusion into the shipping carton which with insurance would have to be covered by the shipper. The actual cost to the customer would be whatever it costs to get a stylus replacement from the original manufacturer. The customer then owns the cartridge which he or she could sell on Audigon as a new cartridge as long as they do not break the seal. So, it is not a total loss to the customer, certainly an inconvenience.
Dear @newtoncr : Good for your link. Unfortunatelly it did not says something way different of what already was analised in this thread with MLavigne ( you can read in this thread from page 7..) and adds other no sense ( for me ) subjective issues.
" dava seems to check the most boxes. "
with out objective merits because its high FR response that’s what that gentleman listened and not awared of it. Even that a welcomed information.
Sadly, cartridges are too easily damaged, which makes rentals a tricky proposition. I mean, we still see the "my cleaning lady killed a $5K Dynavector" posts every month - too many audiophiles still haven't got their "cartridge safety" routines down pat. You could charge the renter for damage, but that will lead to a lot of "you damaged this cart" / "no I didn't - CC chargeback incoming" quagmires.
You might discover that you can not hear the difference between a Windfeld Ti and an MC Diamond in your system. That is a $5000 savings.
I agree with the point you're making, but the differences between cartridges of different designs like that are extremely audible. Nobody who can't hear that difference will get to the point of interest in $5K+ cartridges. However, it IS possible they might prefer the cheaper cartridge, due to either system matching or personal preference.
@ghdprentice, If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. I would never let anyone else touch my turntable. The question would be what percentage of turntable owners who might be interested in a site like this are comfortable handling cartridges. A site like this could actually save people a lot of money. You might discover that you can not hear the difference between a Windfeld Ti and an MC Diamond in your system. That is a $5000 savings.
Even if I had a dealer nearby, I think I would prefer to learn to install them and adjust them myself (as I have). If you rely on the dealer you aren't going to be able to swap cartridges on a whim when you want to compare them.
Cartridge rental. 100% cash deposit. I can’t think of many things more delicate and expensive. I will not touch one (and I shouldn’t, I am a cluttered). My dealer installs them.
@daveyf, I have discovered , having purchased 3 top cartridges recently, that online stores will give distant buyers a 10% discount by adding a trade in if they are comfortable with you. You still have to buy the cartridge.
What would be fun would be to start a new online store that just rents cartridges. The customer would have to deposit the full price of the cartridge which would be refunded minus the rental fee when the cartridge is returned in satisfactory condition. You could serially rent all the cartridges you felt were candidates. Having all those cartridges in hand one could also publish photos of build quality and customer reviews of the cartridges. Might be a fun retirement gig. The site could get all it's cartridges at dealer cost by linking those stores that supply cartridges to the site for free.
@mijostyn A while back I had started a thread about how to go about acquiring an expensive cartridge given the lack of ability to demo the cartridge before committing to a purchase. There seemed to be little consensus as to how this could be accomplished, and a number of issues were brought to light.
Chief among them was the fact that no dealer would be happy to have you demo a mega $$ cartridge, put use on the stylus, possibly damage the cartridge while doing the set up and then request a return. This made good sense.
Now here's the thing, I was lucky enough to have a dealer local to me ( and of course whom I had supported in the past), let me do a demo before committing to purchase of the cartridge under consideration. This did lead me to a purchase, but it also gave me a very nice comfort level with my selection. Nonetheless, the number of dealers who will allow such a thing must be extremely limited, you will pay the dealer price and not some significant discount..and you will have had to have supported the dealer in the past. I think buying a mega $$ cartridge is a risk that is difficult to off-set.
One thing that was suggested on my thread was for dealers to have demo cartridges on hand to mount on customers arms for a demo period, a small fee to be paid for this service and in the event of purchase, a credit towards said purchase. This is the best suggestion that I think was given...to off-set the risk, BUT it also means higher dealer margins and higher middle man margins to off-set the cost of the demo cartridge. Could be worth it...
@rauliruegas, My thinking on the price is that with MSL cartridges there is one less middleman. Humans being the way they are would typically make their own product better than one made for another company. But regardless of motivation they are both great cartridges. I have studied the Platinum Signature under high magnification and there can be no argument that it's construction quality is of the highest order. It is easy to see why Air Tight would use MSL to build their cartridges. I have never seen a diamond so beautifully shaped, polished and mounted. All angles are perfect. Placed on a spinning180 gm record the VTA is 92 degrees within a few minutes with the head shell perfectly parallel to the record. Impressive! With my modified Wallyscope set up so it is focused at a point around 1/2" from the rim of the record you wait until the stylus travels into focus, take a picture then snap lines along the right landmarks and the program will automatically calculate the angle for you. It will be very interesting to see how other cartridges measure up. When I have the other two I will publish pictures on Imgur.
The first thing that stood up for me was the bass. I think that is most likely the combination of a very low impedance cartridge and a current mode phono stage. I actually prefer the build quality of the Seta vs the CH. I do not like the complexity of the CH and I think the utilization of a massive batter power supply in the Seta is brilliant. I would be willing to bet that one would have a very difficult time telling one cartridge from the other.
@dover, I am not a huge Koetsu fan either. I got a Rosewood back in 1979 and I did not like it at all. Construction quality was iffy, the Denon DL 103 was better, and it did not track well at all. I had a Rosewood Signature Platinum for a short while more recently and again I was not impressed. The MSL is decidedly better.
The best cartridge is the one you think sounds most accurate in your system and that is the problem. In order to know for sure you have to buy the cartridge and use it in your system. You research the subject as best you can but there is no substitute for playing a few records on your own system and by then you own it for better or for worse. You will never know if there wasn't a cartridge that would have suited you better.
@rauliruegas Trying to determine which cartridge sounds better than the other is really a fools errand in many cases. The ML and the AT are very good sounding cartridges, but the set up, the arm, the table, the downstream gear and numerous other variables are in play here. To state unequivocally that one is better than the other is, at least imho..and having heard both, impossible. The synergy of the match up of the cartridge to the other components is crucial…and is where I believe a lot of folks fall into the trap of making an incorrect finding.
For example, there are folk who believe that all Lyra’s have a certain sound that they find unacceptable..these very same folk are placing the blame at the cartridge, when in fact, the blame should be placed elsewhere. Set up errors, tonearm incompatibility, phono stage incompatibility, etc.,
@mijostyn : I think that both cartridges performs at the same quality level where differences could comes by MSL designer MUSIC preferences against AT vocing preferences.
Maybe the main true difference is that MSL has low price.
Dear @mijostyn : Yes, boron. An eropean owner of the OPUS 1 posted this:
" Italian distributor of Air tight told me Opus 1 could be better than MSL platinum because being 30 anniversary of Air Tight they ask to do something very special,while MSL platinum change only the body and the stylus,but until you don't listen both nobody knows.
This opus 1 has an incredible bass and body,very clean,fast and deep and i think ..."
@mikelavigne Mike, I would have agreed with you about WBF up until RR got involved. Then, I believe that the owner dominance became prevalent, far more so than any other forum i belonged to. It was that dominance, albeit more subtle than some I can think of, but still more prevalent, that ultimately turned me off the site. To that, the mods/gorts clearly had their favorite members, whom they let say/post just about anything, and the rest were quickly censored...not my idea of equitable.
Here, we have far more equity with the mods and I think a wider and more open minded group.
I have noticed also that at WBF the topics and threads have become incredibly boring and dry...nothing to go there for in any way. YMMV.
every forum has it’s warts and baloney factor. and i’m on the outside of that WBF tribe you describe. but i can’t disagree it exists. i push back against it occasionally.
most other forums are much more owner dominant than WBF. but it’s somewhat that way.
if i’m choosing the least messed up forum, that would be WBF for it’s respect for listening perspectives. it allows discussions to happen without constant assaults from left field as happens here. the ratio of content to distraction is better. many very serious minded audiophiles are there. smaller group, a bit more intimate. so it’s where i’m most at home. but it’s far from perfect.
yet the wild wild west of Audiogon has it’s attractions too. you just have to wear your iron underwear. it’s purely commercial so you have lots of ambulance chasing going on if you like that sort of thing. you can’t PM contact info. and the Audiogon interface is maddening. i barely tolerate it. i do like that i can post my system here. that has value to me.
@doversample variation probably goes a long way explaining your experience as the Colibris are more prone to this phenomenon that any other cartridge I can think of. As you know they’re also very picky about their companionship. By this I mean tonearm and phono device, not you of course 😋
@doveras you know I greatly appreciate your expert opinion, but this needs to be corrected. As far as I know VdHul never used platinum magnets. However, he did use platinums coil wire for the Colibri. To the best of my knowledge he’s been the only cartridge designer who ever used this metal for coil wires. It seems particularly difficult to work with and when his supply of sufficient quality wire ran out, it was over. I have one of the last samples of the Colibri XPW African Blackwood, which I treasure. The word ‘coarse’ is about the last I would think of when describing the sound of this cartridge.
The best cartridge is simple, one that meets your listening biases and your pocketbook, that works on your tonearm in a synergistic manner…and plays well with your phono stage.
Yep - thats what I posted back in August.
Agree - synergy rules ( and I don't mean the SPU )
Heard so much top end stuff sounding awful due in main to mismatching and poor set up.
Lol, this thread has me immensely amused. The WBF is such a joke these days that IMO anyone contributing over there is really contributing to the great YAWN. @rauliruegas take it as a badge of honor that you are banned there, I certainly do.
@mikelavigne you well know that the remaining members at WBF are all buddies of Steve or worse, Ron. They all follow the same guru and believe the same old BS that the guru pushes. Horns rule, and gear that is non-resolving and as bright as the sun is looked up to, probably because these folks have lost their high frequency hearing years ago!
The best cartridge is simple, one that meets your listening biases and your pocketbook, that works on your tonearm in a synergistic manner…and plays well with your phono stage.
They both use the same SH-uX core which is Matsudaira's trademark.
The core materias used in various cartridges go under the radar - no one talks about them. I have a hunch from listening to many cartridges from the same manufacturer ( alnico, samarium cobalt, platinum etc ) with different core materials that we are listening to the core material as much as the cantilever/stylus/generator design.
I cant stand the platinum magnet Koetsu's. Don't know why - technically, but I've heard enough koetsu's of all types from the 80's onward black - rosewood - onyx golds to know there is a plasticky quality that pervades the platinum magnet Koetsu's compared to Suganos earlier cartridges. It has nothing to do with rolled off top end or lush midrange - there is a synthetic quality from mid to upper mid that grates - I'm thinking may be the magnets.
The only other platinum magnet cartridge I've heard is the VDH Colibri - and to me that sounds slightly coarse compared to his others, but not as bad as the Koetsu's.
@dover, That was my feeling exactly which is why I opted for the Platinum Signature.
It is in the bass where the physics of analog playback become really difficult. No such difficulty occurs with digital playback. Digital bass reproduction is universally more accurate. It does not have to deal with resonance frequencies, tracking, etc. Again, accurate does not necessarily mean better sounding to some people.
@rauliruegas, The Opus One has a Duralumin body. It's cantilever is boron. The Platinum signature has a "black ion titanium body." Tracking force is exactly the same for both cartridges 1.9 to 2.2 gm The Platinum Signature is slightly more compliant. I suspect they are using the same stylus. I would have to look at an Opus 1 under magnification to determine that. They both use the same SH-uX core which is Matsudaira's trademark.
Bass and drums have a solidity usually reserved for Hi Res digital.
Really - many musicians like Neil Young still prefer to record in analogue, most agree that bass in particular is better when recorded in analogue. Some record bass in analogue and voices in digital.
@mijostyn : Year ago I listened in an audio friend the Opus and in those times was the top of the line AT model and very good performer and competitive with all top cartridges out there.
As you said your MSL could be the MSL version of the Opus. At least with a new cantilever build material: boron because the Opus came with :
" semi-line contact stylus with a 0.1mm square tip, an ultra-hard duralmin cantilever "
Good that the cartridge is fulfilling your main targets.
@rauliruegas, The Luxman was a good cartridge. Since then Yoshio Matsudaira developed a new core for the armature that gives him higher output ( 0.5 mV) with one layer of wire keeping the impedance very low and the moving mass very low. He started using this in the Air Tight cartridges the Opus 1 being the grand daddy of them all. I think the Platinum Reference is Yoshio's version of the Opus One. The stylus he is using is unique in my experience. The very tip instead of coming to a point is radiused and beveled on both sides, very different from the replicant 100 or Gyger S styluses. It is much more forgiving in set up. The azimuth could be off a few degrees and tracking ability would be unchanged. Cross talk would still worsen but most people would not notice that. The cartridge is really very small and beautifully made. All the angles are dead on. All you need is a good protractor and a Wally Referance and you can get it perfect in just a few minutes, no microscope required. Sonically nothing stands out at first. After a few records I became aware that I was getting better bass definition. The next characteristic that became obvious after a few more records was an easy going stress less demeanor. Not sibilance at all, not a sharp edge anywhere unless called for. It is very hard not to like this cartridge.
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