First let me state that I own a VPI Prime w/perifial ring, SDS, and a couple extra arm wands so I have invested some $ overall, this being my third VPI table, with that said I am a happy VPI customer but here recently have taken a few notes on their constantly coming up with the next iteration of what ever is moving well and I do believe the Prime is one of those. When they came out with the Prime Signature it was hard not to sell and replace with it but I didn't now the Prime Signature Rosewood is gorgeous but at $6,800.00, now when you get to that cost level I started looking used and have seen the prices dropping ridiculously low on a couple of HRX setups with all the extras for a lot less than that and they still aren't moving. I know there are those that speak of VPIs marketing from time to time but what is going on.
With those extra armwands, I would bypass the Prime Signature and go for the Avenger. There are even some used Avengers on Audiomart. I've owned the Prime and then went to an Avenger, and everything opened up - clarity, soundstage, blacker backgrounds, realism. I was pretty surprised actually. The extra armwands would seem like a good move on the Avenger rather than the Prime Sig. Great options too have though. Mat has always been a true gentleman when I've spoken with him and the rest of the VPI team has been a pleasure to work with. Many dislike the streamlining of the company and many didn't like all the iterations and variations that Harry had in his bespoke offerings. It is hard to please everyone but seems some of those bespoke offerings are available in their Reference Avenger line.
@don_c55 very happy to have you in the VPI family! :)
@stewart0722 if not a VPI, you picked a fantastic alternative! Oracle is a great company and Jacques is a true gentlemen. Hope to have you back on board with us one day, but you are still doing it right!
@leonardcooper it sounds like the dealer oversold you. You can special order any VPI table with one of our mounted gimbal arms at no additional cost. We prefer and mount a unipivot arm but that arm isn't for everyone. For what you have described I would have recommend a standard Prime turntable with a gimbal arm. We recently retrofitted a customer's TNT table with a gimbal because at his age his hands are shaking too much to use the uni. Hope one day you give us another chance and if you do email me directly so I can make sure you get exactly the configuration you are looking for.
@slaw I just gave you a call, and sent you a private email. I have no grudge against you, never have and I don't understand why you posted what you did.
@bdp24 you don't like unipivot? VPI has the solution. For a mere $150 you can convert the unipivot tonearm, that you were sold as being the bomb, to a dual pivot. If you don't mind tinkering.
I've been listening to vinyl since the early 1950's. I dare say I'm at about the same age as Harry.
I "upgraded" my Denon DP-60L, bought in 1984, to a Classic 1. For those not familiar with the 60 it is a direct drive automatic turntable. You cue the 9" gimbled arm and press a button. The platter spins and the tonearm drops. At the end of the record, the arm raises and the platter stops. I currently have a Grace F9/SoundSmith Ruby OCL Stylus on it. FYI: The TruLift sold as a VPI accessory is necessary for the Prime Sig at $250.
I went from a Classic 1 to a Classic 2.5 to a Prime Signature. Each comes with it's own set of tweaks. You must be a tweaker if you buy VPI, unless you can afford to pay someone else to tweak for you.
I will say VPI does do a tolerable job at customer service, but don't call on Friday afternoon, you'll get the bum's rush. Then you end up fiddling and tweaking until they get back on Monday to solve your problem. I'm not overly impressed with their service, like some are.
You can get some answers from the forum, but don't challenge any old-timers. They have a clique that bully's the forum and will gang up on you.
There is a SoundSmith Voice on the Prime Signature. I can listen to the two tables side by side. A discerning listener can tell the difference, but there is not that much! I've had the Grace on the VPI with equally good results, although I don't think the Denon can do the Voice justice.
What's my point? Well, I spent $6K on the table. Then I had to buy a dust cover, $350. Then I absolutely had to have the Dual Pivot, $150. Need to raise the tonearm, TruLift $250. Outer retainer ring for warped records, $1000. I can't get my platter to spin at less than 33.4 rpm. Vpi says it's fine, but I want to change the pitch. No problem, ADS $1000. And you must tweak every step of the way.
The Denon goes for less than $1000 used. You can put any tonearm on it that you want. And, it's got a Rosewood plinth at no extra cost!
If I had it to do over again I'd think it through more carefully and avoid the hype. I bought the hype and drank the Kool-Aid.
@Tuntablemat made a great speech, spoken like the true head of a company.
And they're coming out with more latest and greatest as we speak. So I don't believe what he says, he wants to make money.
There's going to be some VPI heads (AyrBag and Barf and others) that want to beat me up over this. I have a right to my opinion, as does everybody else here, whether we agree or not.
I, for one, am not one of VPI's overjoyed customers. Don't get me wrong, it sounds great when you have it tweaked right. It's
unique design
is oversold with hype. I am sure that there are other, less sexy turntables in the same price category of every VPI table that will perform as good or better.
Want to listen to music? No problem, hold on, it's just a tweak away.
A table without a removable armboard? What if, like myself, one doesn’t care for unipivot arms? There are a lot of older VPI tables out there that DO have a separate arm board, and they’re pretty cheap to buy. VPI can do whatever they want, no one has to follow.
The HW-19, and the TNT after it, became, because of their stability and relatively (for the time) high mass, became THE table for straight-tracking arms, which demand a very stable platform (unaffected by the mass of the arm moving across the LP, which greatly impacts the table's center-of-gravity) to operate optimally. For users of such arms (the Eminent Technology is still a great arm, and the more recent TransFi Terminator a fantastic arm at a bargain price), there are plenty of those tables around. And, they were built to last!
Long-time VPI owner -- record cleaning machine in 1996; VPI Scout owner since 2004 and yes, it's been upgraded a few times with tonearm, motor, platter, feet, etc.
I applaud VPI's effort to bring rationality to its line. My major concern is that VPI retains some strategy for managing innovation while at the same time making it easier for vinyl enthusiasts to understand their line. Matt's explanation above is great for the moment, but represents a risk to future growth if it becomes etched in stone.
Historically, one of the great things about VPI has been their willingness and ability to explore new ideas and/or revisit historical ones in a new light. A lot of this was driven by Harry's enthusiasm for the form and the continuous spirit of experimentation. At the same time, this hobbyist orientation makes it difficult to explain, especially since the ideas are often contradictory. For example, how do you reconcile the ideas about a plinth-mounted motor (inspired by Empire turntables from the early 1960's, I hear) in the Classic with a SAMA (stand alone motor pod) in the Scout/Prime? Maybe you cannot, so the solution is to axe the Classic line. Sigh.
I'm sorry to see the Classic line go, because I think it did some things very right compared to my Scout. But I understand the need to rationalize a line and stop producing an endless variety of different approaches to doing the same thing at the same/similar price point. But does this mean that the basic platforms cannot change, and forevermore all the innovations will be rearrangements of the existing formats? This, I think, would be a big mistake.
Hopefully, once the line gets straightened out, efficiency is established, and rationality will be delivered. At that point, I hope the doors will remain open for new ideas (not just new lines of electronics) that will continue to burnish VPI's past successes. I wish them every chance of future growth & success, and hope they will remain a USA-focused contributor to evolution in the great reproduction of music.
wow. mat is doing a great job at trying to manage the product line and make his dealers and customers happy. his explanation and openness was refreshing and much more than some of these comments deserve. you all should be ashamed of yourselves.
The judgement re: the appropriateness of such inclusion is for the reader to discern. I found it to be inappropriate and felt it merited being called out. If you don’t feel that your post is a rant (and also your last post), you have lost perspective.
I happen to agree that the more recent direction VPI has taken toward "plug and play" and captive tonearms (I commented on the latter earlier in the thread) in their "affordable" line is not my preference, that is why I continue to invest in improving my 22 year-old TNT/ET-Two combo instead with what I feel to be superior results to buying a new VPI table.
A successful litigator understands that to win an argument he/she must win the jury.
"At the end of 2011 when my mom died" by @turntablemat...
@dlcockrum , Thanks for responding to a non-issue.
Frankly, I’m surprised Mat never mentions his brother? I can only assume that more people will be persuaded by the "mother story".
(1) My post was not a "rant". My post was a post. (2) "Mat’s expressed grief". You do know that this issue is almost a decade old? The fact that (Mat brought it up), is of concern!!!, in that he’s succeeding in VPI’s effort in trapping those of your ilk into buying/supporting the very company that continues to trade on the good intentions on the audiophiles reading this post. ..Mat.. Job well done! (3) In fact, I just responded to ((Mat’s mentioning)) of his mother’s death. I continue to wonder why, almost a decade later, Mat wants to continue to make us all aware of this? I guess so that @dlcockrum and the like will try to conflate my posts (4) You, my friend, DID bring it up in a way as to make it a point of concern to us all. Why did you do this?
@jollytinker ,"I don't expect too much hand holding".
What? What did I just read? A VPI owner that is willing to spend thousands of $, (let me repeat) thousands of $ on a TT and somehow when they learn their StP distance is off, or when they just found out their newly bought TT has just been discontinued, they are still willing to give this American company a break! Give me a Break!
@jollytinker , Would you give any other TT manufacturer a break if you just bought their TT and learned that your $250.00 cartridge alignment tool showed a 2 mm discrepancy? Or at the least, the manufacturer and the press never once released this MAJOR issue? Look at what Bill Stevenson just described as a VPI customer. He had the same issue. He was offered a remedy. I wasn't. Were you? I've been a VPI customer for over 30 years. I'm now ashamed to admit this. Sadly I now feel, I should have known better.
I don't want "super simplicity" I do want a product that after I get it home, I don't have MAJOR questions about. Or, Any questions about, do you?
Well I took one of my Scout turntables today and removed that Uni-Pivot tone arm and replaced it with a good REGA 700 tonearm.....Its almost like the good old days HW-19 JR and a REGA 300 tonearm......VPI its time for a tonearm re issue......autospec
Dear friends @turntablemats: I think almost everything on the subject is covered. My friend Guillermo was VPI dealer here in México and he borrow me at least two different TTs. and herad other models in his show rooms.
In those times and today I still think as @whart that any VPI audiophile needs the alternative to choose other tonearms. VPI owners are " married " with the VPI tonearm for ever.
This is a mistake and the post by @austinbob confirm about when he experice to the Oracle/SME with a truly good Proteus that positevely shout for a different tonearm.
I think that VPI has to think seriously of what is the real role of the TT, tonearm and cartridge in the analog experience and its intrinsical relationship in between.
Maybe VPI thinks that the TT is the star on that equation but it's not in any regards as it's not the tonearm but the CARTRIDGE where its quality level performance depends mainly on that tonearm and with out choices the cartridge owners never be know for sure how good is the cartridge ( S ) they own.
The TT and tonearm designs must be designed around the kind of job they are going to play that's to fulfill the CARTRIDGE needs and not the other way around.
It has been a very long time since I owned a VPI table (late '80s)...but all I have is good memories of the wonderful sound, also the customer support I got from VPI on the very infrequent instances I needed some kind of assistance.
There are reasons the VPI brand has survived and prospered so long, much like Grado, another company I admire (in fact, I used one of their top MM cartridges in my VPI): solid design, good sound, and ethical business practices.
I think Mat’s explanation of the company’s direction makes sense. There’s a funny New Yorker cartoon with a guy standing in front of his turntable commenting to a friend that what draws him to vinyl is “the inconvenience and the expense.” So when a small family-owned company tries to rationalize production and setup, they get bashed? I owned a HW19 Mark II with an SME IV arm. Probably should have kept it! But I sold it and now have a Classic 1. Couldn’t be happier. Sounds great, reliable, well made, easy to set up. Is there a better set up than using the VPI jig? Probably but it would require fiddly and expensive software (yes, I’m aware there are other static solutions). So celebrate VPI! Yes, the original post by its title sounded like “do you still beat your wife.”
I really like my Traveler Ver.1 as it combines a unique set of features that make it a star performer in it price class. 10.5 in arm, on the fly VTA, heavy enough chasis, ultra low W & F, and a real AC motor. I like simple.
This was a used table and when I needed assistance ordering a part that I misplaced (fell into trash unnoticed) I was treated like a red headed step child. It took 10 weeks to obtain the part. This alone will keep me from buying a NEW table from them. Maybe another used one, but I doubt it. Whenever you called them it was mass confusion, you had to start from the beginning every time with your issue. Which really was their issue.
I think VPI has made a definite turn to a model for volume......versus the bespoke style company they were before.....
Gone are the Classics, the HR-X, even the Classic Direct.
In their place are Avengers in various iterations, which is fine, but it's not the same overall look as an HR-X, and costs more....... The classics were hard to top, but they're gone Now we have the Primes, in all the flavors.......but I find it to be a relatively uninspired design compared to the likes of the above and the Aries......
The new ADS controller looks like a Hafler component from the 70s..... I can't believe this came from the same company that offered the SDS....
I have owned 4 VPI Turntables over the years, going from an HW19, to a Classic 1, to a Classic 3, then added the 3D arm and finally one of the last HR-X's
I found the tables to be good performers overall and not finicky. There were issues (VPI denied my dealer's claim on chipped paint, blaming it on UPS, and the dealer had to pay out of pocket to fix it).....I got a couple of 3D arms with weak wiring that had to be sent back.......
Mat W. is one of the nicest people around......though....and I've always enjoyed dealing with him....
I now have an Oracle Delphi MK VI 2nd edition with an SME V arm and Transiguration Proteus.....I had the cartridge on the Hr-X prior..... I am in love with this table in terms of sonics, but it is finicky as all get out and that is precisely what I miss with the VPI offerings....
I think VPI needs to get rid of the low end tables around a grand and concentrate upmarket......come up with something to replace the HR-X in spirit and introduce some automotive finishes/aluminum etc and maybe consider losing the amoeba style plinths of the primes......but that's all subjective....... I would look to Feickert tables for inspiration.... but do it better
In short they need to come up with a couple of tables that noone has seen the likes of before......works of art.....and I think VPI could do it......
I have heard from a couple of dealers that the Prime Scout is an absolutely KILLER table for the $$ almost untouchable in the 2K category
What I said in short was , I have about ten VPI turntables and I wish somebody else had about half of them.........UNI-PIVOT TONEARMS......absolutely nuts
I thought it time to upgrade, but I was confused by the changes in the design philosophy. I called VPI and asked Harry about the Classic: why the switch from clamps to acrylic to aluminum and no clamps?
He told me that the HW MKIV is as good as any table he makes today, that he can't afford to make them that way anymore, and that I should just upgrade to a MKIV with a SAM.
It was great advice. I got vastly superior sound, and I saved $5K.
Hey all, no worries I won't take any of this as bashing, just a chance to share our goal. Actually, a lot of it was because originally I was confused by our own product line coming on board.
*A bit of history, feel free to skip if you have read about this already*
At the end of 2011 when my mom died, I was a school teacher and reluctantly took on the family business. In the process, I found the love I never knew I had for the industry and my family's company. However, I couldn't keep track of our own brand because we had over 22 models each being very close in price and build with each other. It wasn't against anything my dad made just very confusing for me which means it had to be even more confusing for customers. This started a long transition and learning process for me. In addition it lead to the decision to focus the brand, not for marketing but for sanity. The dealers used to have a saying that "no two VPI's are a like." Which at the time some considered charming but overall can lead to a lot of headaches. Three years ago when we had our first VPI dealer training and presented this direction the dealers breathed a sigh of relief.
Our direction is to have an easy to understand and use product line of "good, better, best" that has multiple options for the customer to upgrade and grow with their table.
From our FAQ's page:
Q: Can you explain your product line at a quick glance?
A: We have made the line very simple with the idea of “good, better, best” in mind across the whole line. All products are consistent and locked in to be in the line without any changes!)
Entry Level Cliffwood Player
Production Prime Scout (good) Prime (better) Prime Signature (best)
Reference Avenger (good) Avenger Plus (better) Avenger Reference (best)
On top of that we are in the process of introducing some VPI branded electronics to provide a full solution for that first time user. As well as having something down the pike for our 40th anniversary ;)
We still have an HR-X as an option but it is visual with no real sonic advantage over an Avenger. The difference being the Avenger is MUCH easier to tweak, modify, and add tonearms to... a high-end sandbox for someone to play with! A lot of dealers and customers have been switching for Avengers because they want to easily mount multiple arms for quick cartridge demo or mounting other company's arms without getting too technical.
Hope that clears up the goal and directions for VPI. :)
Certain brands get bashed on the forums...B&W, Wilson, Mcintosh, and now VPI. Just like on "Mean Girls", everyone talks smack about Regina but at the same time they all want to be Regina.
If I listen to Inna, this is what I am to believe, VPI is headed to HELL , but will have a lot of company because all the others are already there, digital is totally different than it was 20 years ago, there is not a vinyl resurgence it is actually a fashion statement and most of our youth do not know what a record is anyway. Wow did I have it wrong.
These days the situation with digital is totally different than it was 20 years ago. Computer music is going to take over almost everything. There probably will be some companies left doing custom orders, very much like you can get new tape heads made for your Studer. There is no vinyl resurgence in a true sense, in my opinion, it is a temporary fashion phenomenon and it looks more like an agony than anything else. Most people in their twenties have never even seen a turntable. It's almost over. Sorry, guys.
Consumers are a fickle bunch that can quickly turn , made in the USA or not. Creating exclusivity such as is alluded to above in a shrinking market , and the constant reworking and naming of virtually the same product, in an already tighter consumer spending era could possibly finally bite them in the arse. Not a knock on the product itself, many like them and the made in the USA mantra , but IMHO, not having other real competition in the same market nationally has made the innovation and design of their tables lazy and marketing over pushed ahead of the previous. I get that people want to buy something from a company they feel will be around longer, but, it still doesn't change the reality a lack of competition and the fear the Old business supporters portray of any other outside the country options. Doesn't make either products bad or better, it just has a tendency to repackage the same old over and over . I'm not a fan of VPI personally, but that's a choice made based on the playback, I prefer, not the product so much itself. Any entity that continues to build and promote products for the use of vinyl is good in my book. Someone predicted the demise, which if anything will kill it, its pricing has become idiotic for both new and the absurd prices people put on tired out of shape tables of yesteryear. Some of which certainly are a measure of respectable , but in reality are far from worth the original price let alone 5 to 10 times it some 40 years onward .
Inna is basing this on the astonishing rise in the popularity of Vinyl and the associated gear used to play this stuff…makes perfect sense.
Also, 3 local-ish audio "salons" I've visited over the last several months carry a Pro-Ject "The Classic" TT I've wondered about since it came out to pretty good reviews last year. The shop in New Hampshire said the only table that suited me is a new VPI Scout though the amoeba style base looked too weird (I own a great sounding Linn Basik/Akito that I'm afraid will die before I replace it…but I'm not in a hurry), another was certain a Rega/Feikert/Hana rig was the one for me, and a third shop has had a "Classic" for months and nobody has listened to it. Lame…the Pro-ject is around a grand, the ones suggested to me are all around 2 grand, and they wonder why people shop online.
VPIs decision to limit customers to one tonearm choice (theirs) by eliminating the armboard, starting with the HRX HotRod, is understandable from a marketing standpoint, yet probably precludes their newer tables from consideration by many, including me.
@tooblue you're absolutely right - there was no VPI bashing in your original post and in most of the responses. I'm responding to a general theme that crops up in threads here on A'gon, which I think is unfair. But I should have clarified that I'm referring to posts that are not actually in this thread, so Mea Culpa! That said, I can't agree with you @slaw about this alleged "total industry failure." I've had great experiences with VPI and been very well treated by them, but I also don't expect too much hand-holding. It's a company built by tinkerers, and their products have a certain amount of play built in. You might be pro-antiskate or not. you might prefer one cartridge geometry or another. They all require some kind of trade off, and that's just the nature of the technology. If you want super simplicity then maybe a VPI turntable is not the best choice - there are plenty of other excellent companies and formats to choose from!
Their products are very favorably marketed. ,.......
jollytinker, Did you ever read or get a reminder from VPI that they have a (set) , cartridge alignment configuration? Not one time in my experience did Micheal Fremer or any one else remark on this issue. A total industry failure! Yet, we are left with the product that was marketed as such. WOW?
Give me a break!
So even Bill Stevenson remarked about this recently. He had an issue as a VPI owner and said that VPI offered a fix his TT. What about the rest of us?
What do I want? Well, I want a 40 year old company who advertises itself as "made in the USA" to act like it!
@jollytinker, I didn't read any VPI bashing in my question or in any of the responses, just a question of direction and like I said I am a happy customer, wow I can take bashing like that all day, just calm down take a breath.
OMG more VPI bashing... what a waste of time! they're a great family company in a complicated market and they're staying afloat while negotiating a generational transition. Yet they still make top notch products and in my experience they're a model of personalized customer service. What more do you want? Of course they're not perfect. But many companies have diversified product lines (I dunno, Apple and Porsche?). Only with VPI does it become evidence of some kind of bad intentions. I don't get it.
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