What direction is VPI headed?

they are going in circles LOL

Mat...thanks!  I removed my comment also.

@mofimadness no worries, I calmed him down and he removed it. I didn't read the whole thread. I'll respond about the HW-19 and tonearms in more detail a bit later. 

@vpi,

If the rumor you heard is true, I find it hard to swallow, unless one adds on to the end of that rumor, this way...’given that there are now better ways/materials to achieve superior results for a similar cost and a higher profit margin’.

I’m glad you are enjoying your table. I too, have tried 3 different platter/bearings on mine, along with a prototype outboard motor enclosure on a separate platform w/ thread drive. These additions brought the table up substantially. When I first listened to my Classic 3 Sig SE, it was clearly superior, even with it’s S2P distance off. ( I was using a SDS). Then I put in the Rock 7!

I will say that as a tweeker at heart and my focus being on trying to extract the most out of a tt instead of trading away, the Hw-19 was an excellent learning platform.

@slaw 

Rumor has it Harry said he discontinued the HW -19 because it got too expensive to manufacture and sell at at a reasonable price.  With a TNT platter and bearing and a SAMA I've heard few tables selling for less than 10k that best it.  But then music is in the ear of the listener.  Then again, I'm sure any table with a modern high density plinth and a high quality, stand alone motor would be a good platform for the ET.  The problem is fewer and fewer manufacturers are producing tables with replaceable arm boards so one cannot swap arms without ending up with a plinth that's full of holes

ET has recently started selling an extra long weight I-beam.  (It's not on the web site but if you call or email Bruce he'll sell you one).  I'm using one with double springs and have no problem with tail wagging the dog.  It is so long you cannot use a standard dust cover but then attached dust covers degrade sq anyway.  The further out on the beam the weights are placed the better the sq. This with a VDH Black Beauty SPX which is a high compliance cartridge and tracks at a low VTF.  My Second cartridge is a Lyra Delos which is relatively low compliance but it also tracks fine.  

I've toyed with replacing the springs with something firmer but have yet to try them.

@vpi,

I’m just reporting what a friend of mine told me after he spoke with Harry years ago regarding his VPI TNT Jr/ET arm. According to him, Harry told him the TNT Jr. was developed with the ET arm.

As you may know, The TNT Jr. had no sprung plinth like the Hw-19. Having said this, lots of people used the ET on the VPI HW-19 series w/ spring suspension as did I (initially), also a lot of SOTA users did as well. In my experience the ET needs a more stable platform to work the best. Just think about it... that long counterweight beam hanging on the end of the ET is subject to any movement times a lot more than a regular pivoted arm. Some refer to it as "the tail wagging the dog". This is why some of the later developed upgrades for the ET were the double or triple spring I-beams, to help stiffen the I-beam or to have less movement at the I-beam..

You said above, "I believe it competes with the finest today". In my experience, it’s not even close. I suppose it comes down to what one’s definition of "competes" is? Why would VPI remove the HW-19 series out of their line-up if they thought this way?

@bdp24,

I lived with mine for over 20 years with my ET arm and tried several things.
It has a very resonant base that is difficult to overcome. It is a tweekers tt though. I’ve used the SIMS, practice golf balls, etc... In my experience, anything rubbery/squishy became a trap that destroys ultimate dynamics, transparency and bass response. ( I believe this to be a general rule of thumb. The 1st thing I did when I bought my Classic 3 Sig SE was to replace the rubber (inside) feet with Stillpoints SS). I was never happy until I ended up using a stack of Symposium Rollerblock Jrs. w/ ceramic ball bearings, that I had to modify the base for their use.

Thanks mofi, I happen to have a set of SIMS left. I'll give them a try, as well as a set of roller bearings that I neglected to include, though they don't isolate vertically. Maybe even the Townshend Seismic Pods!

What have ya’ll found to be an improvement over the stock isolation springs in the HW-19 (all iterations)? Herbie’s dots, SIMS Navcom Silencers, Sorbothane spheres, cones, anything DIY, etc.

I have tried just about everything.

My favorite are the SIMS Navcom Silencers, (with the bands removed). Unfortunately, they are getting really hard to find.

YMMV

What have ya'll found to be an improvement over the stock isolation springs in the HW-19 (all iterations)? Herbie's dots, SIMS Navcom Silencers, Sorbothane spheres, cones, anything DIY, etc.

@vpi the HW-19’s motor replacement can be sourced from Hurst and any competent acrylic manufacture can manufacture an arm board without breaking a sweat.  When a product has been out of production for closing in on 20 years, a manufacture must cut the umbilical cord and the legacy owner must become less dependent and more resourceful.  

I have enjoyed this table for over 20 years.  If properly setup, with the proper arm, I believe it still competes with the finest today whether made by VPI or others.

+1

In discontinuing the original SAMA and replacement parts for the HW-19 and failing to offer a table with armboards you have shut out a significant slice of the audiophile community.

+1  

There are a lot of arms that work very well with the HW-19 besides the Linear Trackers, (which do indeed sound great).  It's an EXCELLENT platform for a really, really nice vinyl playback system.  I have a LOT of experience with this table and it still holds it's own...

@turntablemat
I've owned an HW-19 for longer than I care to recount.  Purchased as a MK III and upgraded to MK IV with original SAMA.  I have enjoyed this table for over 20 years.  If properly setup, with the proper arm, I believe it still competes with the finest today whether made by VPI or others.  When I say "with the the proper arm", I must explain I am a huge fan of linear tracking Arms and in particular the ET II.  The upgrade path for this arm and the inherently more accurate tracking of linear trackers (IMO) make them far superior to all but the very best pivoted arms.  The HW -19 and TNTs were a perfect match for the ET II arm.  

To my point: While I certainly understand VPI's marketing decision in dropping replaceable armboards and discontinuing support for the HW-19 line, there are many audiophiles like me who continue to use the HW-19 because of its synergy with the ET II.  In discontinuing the original SAMA and replacement parts for the HW-19 and failing to offer a table with armboards which will support linear trackers you have shut out a significant slice of the audiophile community.  Just take a look at the number of contributors to the ET II forum here on Audiogon.  I know, in terms of the overall market, we linear trackers are a small slice, however, many of us would prefer to stick with VPI.  By the way, Bruce Thigpen still supports the ET II.

Mat sent me a RA#  to send my TT back in order to address my issues, finally.

I hope, one day, I'll have a VPI tt that I can compare to my excellent Rock 7.

One thing I will say is VPI does have fantastic customer service.  They bent over backwards to address my issues more so than any other manufacturer I have dealt with.  Wish they would keep the Aries as I think it is the best table I have heard from them 

As a recent and happy VPI Prime customer, I’m glad the company is adopting a coherent marketing approach. I’d like them to be around a long time.

@zavato, said it best.

@turntablemat,

By all accounts and from your responses to everyone, I have no doubt you are a great guy! I think you were thrust into your current position too young and without the experience to handle these sorts of issues.

Having said this, I don't think I'll ever purchase another VPI product again unless it is to support one I already own.

Getting the last 2-3mm is what cartridge alignment is all about! 2-3mm off is NOT okay---that's grossly out of alignment.

@turntablemat,

I sent you a response today. I am busy with my regular job + my caring for my aged mother during the week. (Why did I feel the need to mention this?)
( You had my posts removed that could have explained to (late readers) the reason for your post, inquiring about "Why?".)

You seem to forget that after my thread late last year, and the conversations after, that I had issues with the S2P distance on my Classic 3. You said as long as it’s in the 2-3 mm range, all is ok. Not only do I not believe this, I find it highly offensive that after years of reading reviews that never once mention this issue, and after reading posts in which the OPs ask Harry to disclose his chosen alignment geometry, not once is this ever disclosed. So, I relied on VPI, the made in America company, to treat me right with my major purchase.

I read later that Bill Stevenson had these same issues and had apparently contacted you about his concern. He stated you offered him a fix. This was my rational for the posts you had deleted.

I don’t have a grudge against you or your company. I feel it is my duty to report, what is in my view, this outrageous lack of disclosure to your many hundreds of customers and what seems like an industry "kept" secret?

" Clearthink, you are entitled to your opinion. If you wish to believe that voluntarily ceasing operations means that an entrepreneur is non-trustworthy or somehow a lesser person-as you clearly state-that's your choice. I don't think most us see things that way "

I based what I said about Bill based on mostly my personal experience with him and to some slightly lesser extent his behavior in this very group which has been deploreable and not the words or actions of a man of honor or anyone I would ever want to conduct business with in any way. There is a reason he is out of business and there is a reason he did not make a deal with VPI and Mat was right to not make a deal with him VPI is a better company than that and treats it's customers well and again I say that based on personal experience.

Bill certainly is not a bad guy and had a great product. We ended up not be able to work together but it isn't a take away from either company.  In hindsight things probably could have been handled better on both sides. But if it doesn't work out at least it's a learning experience.  Bill, I have no idea where those units are but I'm not arguing you sent them and certainly holding them hostage.  I'll try to locate where they are and send the back and if I can't then I'll  buy them.  Our differences aside both of our companies have always tried to help the end user.

Bill at Phoenix is a engineer not a car salesman.  His products worked no upgrades needed.  For a lot less money you could plug in a rpm gauge and the controller and it would adjust itself.

Bill also got involved in multiple diy projects with controllers with multiple phases.  When we ran into some issues with the cheap Chinese frequency generators, Bill designed one and of course threw in some great features. Not only did he do all this for FREE he put links to all the parts and circuit boards. 

If Bill is a bad guy we need more of them around.  Try to find a used Phoenix controller around.  If Bill has a problem I may have the same one.  The problem is people who open there mouths without a clue of the real subject.  I remember people bad mouthing the Phoenix stuff not knowing how the features worked and of course never using one.

I guess if you are interested you can could read through forums and reach your own conclusions.

Enjoy the ride
Tom

Phoenix motor controllers were well reviewed and an excellent product, that's not in dispute.  Whether Phoenix's business model was profitable or not, I am not sure.  If it was a sustainable and profitable venture, why not sell the company than "voluntarily" fold it? 

Clearthink, you are entitled to your opinion. If you wish to believe that voluntarily ceasing operations means that an entrepreneur is non-trustworthy or somehow a lesser person-as you clearly state-that's your choice. I don't think most us see things that way. None of us know precisely what transpired between Mr. Carlin and the Weisfelds other than the three of them. Many of us read the acrimonious exchanges between HW and Mr. Carlin over the relative merits of their respective speed controllers when Phoenix was still actively in production.. Something you can not possibly dispute; there are more professional reviews of the Phoenix products than of the new VPI ADS. Something else you can't dispute; EVERY professional review of the Phoenix products, specifically the Eagle/Falcon and Roadrunner were overwhelmingly positive-which includes Michael Fremer's. So let's assume for the sake of argument both are roughly equal in effectiveness but one design is less expensive to manufacture, less expensive to the consumer while still  sold at a decent profit, provides more data to the user, is less space-consuming, and seems to attract more consumer satisfaction than the other design. Why wouldn't the producer of the less well-accepted product not entertain a good faith option to license and take over production of the "better" design? It must be that the Weisfelds are more reliable and that is was due to Mr. Carlin "being impossible to work with", right? How could it possibly have been driven by satisfaction of seeing a competitor disappear and regaining a monopoly on an existing product?  Ego, pride, and personal history could not possibly have been drivers, right?  VPI's reaction to the opportunity presented and decision not to accept that opportunity was entirely based upon consideration of what was best for VPI's customers, right? OK, I just wanted to check on those things. Thank you. 

"   You just need an attention span longer than 5 minutes and someone that can understand what they're looking at. Not loosing the equipment I sent to you for evaluation would have gone a long way as well. "

Bill at Phoenix Engineering is a very nasty person @turntablemat do not let him trouble you he is known for being pompous and argumentative he is a very insulting person! This is why I did not choose to purchase from him and in fact he is now out of business so that should tell you something about him. Mat you we're smart to not do business with this person VPI is in it for the long haul and Bill was not!

Frank Van Alstine developed what he named the Longhorn in the 1980's.

Looks like he still does them.

http://avahifi.com/products/for-vinyl-lovers/longhorn-phono-cartridges

I haven't investigated the VPI "dual pivot/stabilizer/outrigger", but Frank Van Alstine developed what he named the Longhorn in the 1980's. It was a thin rod with a weight on each end, which was attached to the cartridge. Frank described it as acting like the pole with which high-wire acrobats balance themselves. He recommended it especially for use with Grado cartridges, for some reason, but to me seemed very apropos for use with unipivot arms, for the obvious reason. It was, as with all things Van Alstine, ridiculously cheap. Perhaps that's why it never caught on with high end snobs ;-).

+1 fsonicsmith.  

Mat, I pretty much bled my pancreas of bile upon you (undeservedly) and rather than blast something back, you responded like a true gentleman. A true gentleman you are. In particular, I know many think very highly of the 3D arm and my attack on it as a "plastic gimmick" was a bit much. I do happen to think my 9T sounds 98% as good but that is my subjective opinion in my particular Thorens rig. Thanks for being a nice guy running a great (but imperfect) company. On the topic of B&M retailers, I will not drop his name but I live in Columbus OH so you can probably figure out his identity-it happened to be me who informed him of Sheila's passing which I had just learned from one of the boards-this particular guy was on the verge of tears-such was his fondness for Sheila developed over many years of phone conversations. And yes, you are wise not to engage too much in these forums-they are like zoos run amuck by the inmates, of which I am undoubtedly one of the elephants. 

Actually, you have been... Bill you are rewriting history a bit as usual but that's fine, I'm used to it from you and not going to waste time with a fight.

Speaking of which, I see it is a waste of time for me to hang out on this thread any longer. I hope I answered everyone's questions. The direction is leading us to more focus and quality products that we will still be able to service for everyone 20 years from now.

I also agree about Bill, he had a great design but working with him seemed next to impossible.

It's not that difficult really.  You just need an attention span longer than 5 minutes and someone that can understand what they're looking at.  Not loosing the equipment I sent to you for evaluation would have gone a long way as well.

I think what sealed the deal for me was when you couldn't make any decisions so Harry stepped in, requested equipment to evaluate, never got around to it, and after 3 months of yanking my chain told me: "I'm retired now, talk to Mat about it". 

Yeah, and I'm next to impossible.

@fsonicsmith I totally agree about the name and I'm loving calling it a "stabilizer" because it does exactly that. Wouldn't be bale to use the word outrigger since we have a part that is referred to as that.  But stabilizer certainly works.   We weren't going for marketing BS on the name we picked... we just didn't have a better name at the time.  Your suggestion makes  a lot of sense.

I also agree about Bill, he had a great design but working with him seemed next to impossible.  Actually... I'm agreeing with the majority of your post :p  The B&M guys are key for the growth of VPI and all companies.  The online guys have lost access to our reference line.  Some still have inventory before we limited their product access.  Having a strong B&M can make the difference between a positive and negative experience and we always try to support them first.  

I'm not sure about the wink-wink part but whenever we have special offers we open it up to the B&M first for at least a week before opening it up to the online dealers.  But still, I'm a huge advocate for the B&M and their support.  We did run into some early day 3D arm issues that have since been worker out.  Also feel free to call us anytime.  We actually answer phone and Mondays and Fridays now also   

@stringreen I'm  sorry it has been a bit tougher for you, we have been trying and I can only guess its because of the growth.  Myself, Marc, Jane, grandma, and sometimes dad (Tuesdays and Thursdays usually), are always on the phone trying to work with everyone and we have drastically stepped up quality control and testing on all products.  We just need a few more hours in the day :)   

Again, anyone who doesn't like the uni can always swap it with a gimbal.

@testpilot you made our day!!!

Good posts, fsonicsmith. Slaw's too, of course.

Better yet, VPI should rename the "dual pivot" an "outrigger". 

...for those with problems with their VPI unipivot....they make a 2nd pivot which makes the arm as stable as any and improves the class A sound of the 3D version as well.

I have it installed on my Prime and with all due respect to Harry and Mat, calling it a "dual pivot" or "second pivot" or just a "pivot" is marketing BS. IMO, it ought to be called a stabilizer. The dictionary defines "pivot" as 

the central point, pin, or shaft on which a mechanism turns or oscillates.synonyms:fulcrum, axis, axle, swivel;

Once installed, the VPI unipivot arm does not TURN around this second contact point. It instead now has a stabilizing point that SLIDES along the slippery decal applied to the base of the arm.It naturally slides in a very subtle arc but that does not make it a pivot since the arc is fixed and dependant on the one true UNI-pivot. 

When one examines the degree of engineering that goes into a Kuzma 4Point arm or the gem from Swedish Analog Technologies, it is disingenuous to pretend that VPI's very simple approach to the tonearm is anything but a simple unipivot with a cheap after-market clamp-on stabilizing device attached. At the risk on being politically incorrect, it reminds me of a one legged downhill skier using ski poles with mini-ski's on the ends to stabilize himself/herself. Perhaps Harry was watching such a skier when he came up with the idea. I was the original owner of a Classic when it first came out, have owned a Prime since it first came out, and I have a 9T arm on my restored Thorens TD124. The truth, IMHO, is that manufacturing an arm out of plastic with 3D printing is 98% gimmick-it sounds only marginally better than the very fine sounding 9T with identical cartridges and professionally aligned/set-up. VPI makes a very nice product at a very fair price in the USA but VPI arms are relatively crude (but effective) products.
Why did Harry go the unipivot route in the first place (and Graham and many others)? Simple. Manufacturing a gimballed arm that avoids virtually all friction/stiction in all planes is exceedingly expensive and hard to accomplish. 
I think Mikey went a bit overboard in his review of the ill-fated $30,000 Classic Direct. Why would any sane person spend so much for a deck with a fairly unsophisticated arm? At the time of release, the gimmick/novelty of a 3D printed arm helped make the rig marketable and I have no doubt the drive system of the Classic Direct was every bit the marvel Mikey said it was but the 3D arm did not warrant the praise he gave it.. I suspect that before long, most potential customers sufficiently well-heeled to buy the Classic Direct realized that there were better alternatives and that is why that deck is no longer offered. I hate to be cynical, but one has to wonder if the release and then withdrawal of the $30,000 table with 3D arm was also calculated to make the $3800 Prime seem like one hell of a bargain-because whether calculated or not, that is what it did when the table-buying consumer saw virtually the same 3D arm on a deck that was a tenth of the price. 
I can't say this enough-I appreciated VPI for putting together some very reasonably priced BUNDLES that we call "complete turntables". But-the accessories-from ADS, to periphery rings to spare arm-wands and every other little doo-dad like the falsely named "dual pivot" are vastly over-priced and that makes me think less of the Company. I love my Phoenix Eagle and Roadrunner-they transformed the performance of the Prime far more than the "dual pivot" or 3D plastic arm. Being a much larger company with economies of scale, VPI should have purchased Bill Carlin's design technology and marketed a more affordable, more effective, and less obtrusive version of the ADS. 
So that is my take on VPI. Oh, one more thing; VPI's wink-wink BS with Soundstage Direct with and a few other large web-based e-tailers who discount and offer attractive trade-in programs is a disservice to the long-term loyal bricks and mortar retailers who helped build the Company. When I needed help with my Prime, I got none from the salesman at SS Direct (over the broken-in-shipping 3D fingerlift). The next time I needed help, I went to my local retailer who remedied my mis-adjustment of VTA and fixed a cue lever problem I could not figure out on my own. I learned a valuable lesson-pay more upfront and you get rewarded with hands-on assistance when you need it. If Mat cared more about the customer than the bottom line, he would prohibit e-tailers from competing with B&M retailers by placing the same geographic restrictions on web sales that other manufacturers implement. Again, VPI would be nowhere close to where it is now and Mat would still be a school teacher if it were not for the B&M dealers who promoted, sold, and SERVICED the product to ensure customer satisfaction. VPI no longer wants to answer the phone or respond to emails and yet they expect the customer to get the help they need from some stranger at SSD or the like? Good luck with that!

@stringreen, I am not having an issue with the unipivot arms in general just the 3D in particular, in my system they twist rendering the 2nd pivot moot, please let me explain, I am kind of shoe horned into where my TT is placed and there is an air vent 4 feet above and 1 foot off center so the table is subject to the heat and cold depending on the season, under these conditions the arm twist, more in the winter than summer but still twist. I run a metal arm/classic in the winter to offset this.

@stringreen wrote Testpilot....the salesman wanted more money from you...he has his own interest at heart...but that’s why they call them salesmen. I have a Porsche sports car with many items that are very appropriate for the track - none of which I use to get from one place to another. I would probably buy it the same way...I like to know the stuff is there if I should want it.

I guess you can’t see my tongue firmly planted in my cheek :-)

...for those with problems with their VPI unipivot....they make a 2nd pivot which makes the arm as stable as any and improves the class A sound of the 3D version as well.

Testpilot....the salesman wanted more money from you...he has his own interest at heart...but that's why they call them salesmen.  I have a Porsche sports car with many items that are very appropriate for the track - none of which I use to get from one place to another. I would probably buy it the same way...I like to know the stuff is there if I should want it.

I have a VPI and would do it again...but in truth, their customer service now is not nearly as responsive as when Harry had it.  I know its a bigger company, but they should not forget those that put them in that position.  also, no product should be released to the public from VPI that doesn't exude quality, proper fit and finish, and good value.

When I went to Mercedes last year to buy a new car, the salesperson convinced me that I needed to purchase the optional panoramic sun roof, the upgraded audio system, upgraded performance motor option, and the parking assist package.

A year later, I don’t use the sun roof as the climate I live in is not warm enough, I only listen to news on the  AM station, my commute to work is in stop and go traffic, and my office has valet parking. So I decided to go on the Mercedes forum and rant how crappy Mercedes is in that they offered too many options and to top it off, they are coming out with an updated model this year!!!  

Mercedes, VPI and all you other manufactures who gives the consumer choice and advances their product line, shame on you.

I'm pretty happy with my Prime, and I've had no issues at all with the 3D arm, it's great!
That said, I can't imagine moving to a Prime Signature, as I prefer the feet better on the stock Prime, as well as the wiring. I've tried the Nordost wiring on other arms, and I'm not a fan.

If I ever decide to make another move, it would be for an Avenger.
I'd like to play with multiple arms, and I don't have the real estate for a HRX.

@djfst ,I believe I am just going to sell the Prime and scoop up one of these HRXs or Super Scout Masters and settle in. I have had my issues with the 3D arms and believe the metal arms will suit my needs better. There are some things about the VPI tables I just love such as the perifial ring, what a great thing it is, yes I know others do it as well but I am very satisfied with the VPIs offerings and support I have no reason to change company's. I am just curious how cheap last year's models will go.