Thank you for all your recommendations...
Prior to my Mcintosh C2600 / 452 I was a very happy Parasound JC2 / A21 owner. I found my A21 at loud volumes to clip /distort the Focal's in the midrange at high volumes. I then in-home demonstrated the JC1, Gato (class D), and some cables, new DACS...
My thought process was regarding the brightness: try a tube / solid state combo to add some warmth. That did help, or so I thought. I've spent days upon days playing around with room treatment etc etc.
This speaker is just extremely detailed / bright, and it's very exhausting to hear.
I'm really interested in the Harbeth / Spendors mentioned, but going from so much detail to the other spectrum has me concerned. |
It should. That is why you have to be careful and listen. People will tell you that you can not listen in dealers. Sure you can. It is never optimal but I have always been able to get enough out of it to tell if I'll like the speaker or not, when I do it. I will only listen to line source dipoles which limits the market severely. But you are looking at point source dynamic loudspeakers of which there are a million. It only takes +- 1-2 dB here and there to make a speaker sound totally obnoxious. There is also a tendency for manufacturers to make "audiophile speakers" instead of neutral ones. These impress initially but get tiring.
I can tell you what I like but I can't tell you what you like. With what you have to spend it would be a no brainer for me. I would go with Magnepan 3.7i's but maybe you don't like the look or don't have the room. I currently do not have Magnepans and have no intention of buying them in the future. But, as far as the realistic reproduction of music is concerned, in the price range you are looking in they are a cut above any box speaker I have ever heard.
If you want absolute assurance you can get the sound you want out of a dynamix box speaker get a digital preamp like the DEQX, the Anthem STR or the Trinnov Amethyst. Then you can adjust the frequency response of the speakers any way you want without any distortion, none.
It will also help you deal with room interactions to a degree and adding a subwoofer down the line is a since because all three have digital bass management. Actually, you might even be able to adjust your Focals so you like them! All three units use impulse measurement and will show you a graph of the your systems frequency response. They will automatically generate correction filters which will get you to perfectly flat.
If that does not do the trick you can generate target curves to make the system do what you like. If you want to see how this works look at my system page. I give screenshots of all of this. |
Regarding amplification, not sure Parasound would be any warmer than your current Mc combo. It might be a hair more forward. Moot though. Mentally, it sounds like you are ready to dump the Focals.
What you will find is that Spendor and Harbeth actually deliver a ton of detail, it just isn't accomplished via a more forward tweeter like what is used in the Electra's If you paired the Focals with very warm amplification (Naim/Conrad Johnson) you will find that they will sound natural. Spendors paired with your amplification will sound natural. The net result will be a similar, very detailed sound profile.
I did a demo of the Spendor D7.2s with Naim gear and it was dark. AVM tube gear was more forward than the Naim gear I listened on.
An alternate is to do exactly what mijostyn is suggesting and that is run a digital EQ and turn down the high frequency response. Or theoretically you could get an old-school graphic equalizer.
Do you use Roon? Roon has a digital EQ incorporated into it and could solve your issue. |
I'm extremely familiar with measurements, but don't feel that I should have to / want to trade out tride and true equipment for the sake of a bright speaker. I use REW for my theater system, and am very versed with it. Honestly I want a simple system that does not require so much toil & boil outside of the normal placement, cables etc etc... Magnapans would not work for my application |
Jeffinnh76, thanks for the additional information about your room. How much freedom do you have with speaker positioning?
My own sonic priorities are not very different from yours. Imo characteristics which contribute to "warm, romantic and detailed" without "ear fatigue after 15 minutes of listening" include:
- A frequency response curve which slopes gently downwards with rising frequency. This contributes to "warmth".
- The off-axis response tracks the direct sound very closely, as when there is a discrepancy between the two, the result can be listening fatigue.
- The ear’s sensitivity is highest around roughly 4 kHz. The region from roughly 2-5 kHz should be free from peaks, including peaks in the off-axis response. The latter is actually fairly common.
- "Romantic" implies a well-energized reverberant field, as spectrally-correct reflections convey timbral richness (which is one of the selling points of Maggies and SoundLabs). Too much absorption in the room can work against this, so one argument for speakers with smooth off-axis response is that they do not need aggressive absorption to "fix" their off-axis response.
- "Detailed" does not necessarily require an elevated or even a "flat" top-end response, but if the top end is gently downward-sloping (for the sake of warmth) then the tweeter should have high resolution to preserve inner detail.
- Imo some user adjustability of the speaker’s tonal balance can be beneficial, for adaptation to different room acoustic situations.
Duke
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Because I rank it close up there with the Harbeths and Spendors recommended by others, I'm going to mention the Vienna Acoustics Liszt again. You can get exceptional bargains on used examples if you keep your eyes open. |
Rather than swap out equipment or run separate software do you guys think adding the mcintosh men220 to my system would help?
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The Mac uses room perfect lyngdorf's room correction. It should work fine but you could get a Minidsp DDRC-22D for $700 and use Dirac. |
Adding the Mc MEN220 is running separate software in that it is the Lyngdorf room correction and is a pricey solution at $4500. It is also not certain to solve your problem. I find Lyngdorf amps sound a little bright even with room correction engaged but I am not an expert on the implementation and engagement of that software.
It might be cheaper for you just to get new speakers. You should be able to get $2800 to $3000 on trade for your speakers if you have original packaging. More if you sell them yourself. Out-of pocket would then depend on the exact model you look at.
For example, the Spendor D7.2s list for $6800. That would means $3800 to $4000 out of pocker for a new Spendor vs. $4500 for the MEN220.
If you were my customer that is roughly the deal I would offer for the Spendors.
Another interesting speaker in the same price range would be the Scansonic MB5 B. List is $7200. Scansonic delivers a huge soundstage and is very natural sounding. You are supposed to set them up off axis as the speaker is designed to use reflections in the room to deliver a deep and immersive soundstage.
Trade allowance would probably go up a touch vs. Scansonic compared to Spendor but you get the idea. Whoever your dealer is, should be able to work with you to get to a smart solution that will resolve your issue and keep your budget down. |
Definitely - the Harbeth 40.2's, or 30.1 or 30.2's will provide that type of sound with the right DAC, Preamp, Amp - such as the Hegel H360/H390/H590. I've got both, and that is they type of sound I get with the H590. |
I'm really interested in the Harbeth / Spendors mentioned, but going from so much detail to the other spectrum has me concerned. Yup. That’s exactly why I recommended the JA Perspectives. Detailed but natural sounding. |
i will jump in here...
op, listen to scott/verdant - he really knows what he is talking about
- focals don’t need to be bright, but you need a warm toned amp to make that happen, most solid state will sound sharp
- harbeths, spendors would suit you very well, esp. with solid state amplification (hegels are just a wonderful match, per bassdude)
- upper proacs are excellent but their presentation is a notch brighter, more forward than the same level harbeths and spendors
- newest spatials are an interesting alternative if you would consider ’outside the box’ - like the proacs, they need a tube or two in the chain then they are silky, full, impactful everything you would want
i have no affiliation, other than own spendors (2 pr), proacs (4 pr), harbeths (2 pr) and just got a set of spatials (m3s) they are most impressive - had focals in the past they are gone
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@
jjss491
: wow! You have 9 pairs of speakers, 8 of which are interesting to me! Could you please share what models of Spendor, Harbeth and Proac do you own? I own a pair of Spendor Sp2/3R2, some Harbeth M30.2 Anniversary and I'm considering some Proacs so I'd really love to take advantage of your considerable experience in form of some advises and comparisons. Would you agree to help me here a bit, please? Thanks!
@everybody else, especially OP: please let me know if you feel this would derail the thread too much so I can move this discussion to PM environment should this be the case.
As for the original question, I'd rather recommend my Spendor SP2/3R2 (older model, so used only - not sure, but
might be preferable to the current Classic Line) mentioned above rather than the Harbeths as the later are quite neutral and the former are warmer. One caveat: the Spendors are quite detailed in terms of timbre, harmonic, chromatic and textural detail, good fidelity here, but the contours / transients are not so precisely rendered, especially in the bass which is more diffuse. Very musical and fatigue free, though, adept at accurately reproducing acoustic instruments especially violin and guitar. The Spendors shine when partnered with a dynamic amp as they can be a bit sluggish otherwise, I like them a lot with my friend's Exposure 3010 integrated (older, mosfet based model).
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My current combo is mcintosh c2600 tube pre with solid state 452: would going full tube help out at all tube pre/amp? I just never see this combo? |
Your current combination is relatively neutral. You could move to an MC275 which would help. That bring said, I am not sure if that if far enough. I have listened to the Electras driven by a C22 (warmer than your C2600) and MC275s bridged mono and still found it bright. It was just about right for the Sopras which are more neutral than the Electras.
If you wanted to commit to the Electras (good speakers though not personally to my taste), then I would look at Naim gear. For comparable quality to your Mc I would look at the Naim NAC 282 Preamp and the NAP 250 DR Power amp. Of course, that is not an inexpensive solution and even used, I bet will cost $7K to $8K. Probably overkill for the Electras and you would be fine with a Supernait 3.
Naim is warmer than VTL for some perspective. if you want to go away from Mc, I would put it out to the group here what tube amp will work with you Mc pre. Those Mc pres work well with Mc gear but can run into issues with other brands. I know that Conrad Johnson and VAC would deliver the sound you need but am not certain on compatibility.
An alternative would also be certain Pass units and you could look at AVM. Both offer a range of power amps and integrated amps that would work and soften the harshness of the Electras.
The alternate direction is different speakers and committing to the Mc gear. You have some solid recommendations that should offer tons of detail without the harshness of the the Electra tweeter. Spendor, Harbeth, Sonus Faber and Scansonic along with others will be great.
Full disclosure, I am AVM dealer and have access to Spendor. In a prior post I mentioned Scansonic and I am a dealer of that brand as well. I have no affiliation with any of the other brands mentioned. |
There must be some aspect of the 1038's that you liked enough to buy them. So, have you thought about auditioning the Kanta # 2's? I've seen some used ones lately in the $6K range.
When I was speaker shopping a few years ago I auditioned the 1038's and the Kanta # 2's (I didn't buy either one of them); and, I could not believe how much better the Kanta was. Just a thought, YMMV. Good luck in your search! |
@donquichotte @ jjss491 : wow! You have 9 pairs of speakers, 8 of which are interesting to me! Could you please share what models of Spendor, Harbeth and Proac do you own? I own a pair of Spendor Sp2/3R2, some Harbeth M30.2 Anniversary and I'm considering some Proacs so I'd really love to take advantage of your considerable experience in form of some advises and comparisons. Would you agree to help me here a bit, please? Thanks!
@everybody else, especially OP: please let me know if you feel this would derail the thread too much so I can move this discussion to PM environment should this be the case. in deference to the op and his asking for input on his pursuit, i suggest you and i take this off line - just pm me |
Quote OP "Warm, romantic, yet detailed"
These are of course just words and mean different things to different people. But I think the combination may be unattainable and suggest a tighter focus on the sound OP really wants.
Any decision is likely to be a wrong step unless a good number of speakers are auditioned in OP's room with OP's system and OP's chosen music - I agree with Duckworp on the latter. Few speakers.excel on all kinds of music; and those few are six-digit expensive.
Tough to arrange, but the only way.
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Again I will recommend the Aerial 7T’s. Stereophile A rated speakers. Not many in this price range are. These may be harder to find but worth it. Google the speakers and you will find the Stereophile review. In my view these would check all your boxes. |
Try some PSB Speakers
Just added some PSB 800"s to my rotation.
Wow! Hours upon hours of warm luscious spacious detailed enough sound!
I cant wait now to get in front of my system. |
And you need soft dome tweeters!
Vifa! PSB"S! |
Go listen to the new monitor audio gold 200 and 300 that AMT Tweeter is so warm and accurate and the bass is so fast detailed and articulate. |
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I would recommend as a speaker builder, hobbiest to stay away from metal / plastic drivers if your ears are sensitive to harshness. The less harsh silk dome tweeters you can listen for hours. Some cone drivers can also be very smooth but can have picky resonaces not associated with metal. The cross over points are very important. Drivers have specific design ranges they operate best at. I have found a harsh sounding speaker ca be tamed down if the driver frequency limits are not pushed but made consevative within their design limits.
Your best option is to get your mask on and compare sound on the music you know as harsh on your system at a dealer showroom. My built speakers have aluminum dome midrange and compression titanium tweeter. I found a world of difference just changing the DAC from my network player to a Shiit Bifrost. Smoothed out to velvet voices. With metal drivers I enjoy dynamics and detail but have to be careful they dont bite on older badly EQd music.
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As much as the Focals might appear to be the culprit may I suggest looking at a couple areas.
One: Interconnect cables. They have an across the board contribution to the system's sound. When you find an interconnect that is a good sonic match for your system it will be easy to hear. If your system is bright you may want to try some interconnects that are known for midrange. Sometimes a lack of midrange makes the system sound bright when in reality it is missing some midrange.
Two: Speaker cables. These go as a pairing with interconnects. This one is really tricky because there is a bunch of opinions out there on what speaker cables "sound good." My own experience using many of the more famous and most expensive cables is that cost has no connection with performance in YOUR system.
The biggest factor with nearly all cable designs is distortion from skin effect. This takes a toll on the highs and makes the presentation sound rough in the highs. This sounds bright to most people's ears. When you use some cables that do not have skin effect the sonic results are like a new world of sound. The highs are still present but they are clear in a way that sounds smooth and organic. They sound natural and blend with the midrange that gives the best of both worlds. Detail AND warmth.
How do I know all this? By trying a lot of cables and getting frustrated. So I made my own! They have almost zero skin effect and I love them.
Three: Some amplifiers can lean towards a bright sound. I am not an amp designer so I cannot explain the why of it. But some amps just sound strained. I know you are not looking to change amps but its worth mentioning.
Luke Zitterkopf
Aluminous Audio
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There's so much knowledge and expert suggestions here, I couldn't possibly say I have a better option. But at my price point, I would say warm detailed and romantic was my goal as well, and a combo of Sonus Faber Signums, a Lumin D1 and a Heaven 11 Billie integrated amp have moved me into a decent level of high fidelity. I've just received a REL T5 so get a better blended lower end, but have yet to add it to the system. |
I used to have the same problem until I tried Proac, Response line. No more listening fatigue and as a bonus, they are very forgiving speakers. Unless I was listening too jazz, audiophile recordings or the odd popular album that happened to be well recorded, mostly sounded terrible. Now virtually every album sounds at least 'very good' all the way to spectacular.
The forgiving nature of the response line does not affect the great transparency...
Bass is very surprising for size of speakers. Powerful and tight. To me the whole response line are really fun speakers to listen too. The studio range is good, but there's a huge gap in quality and they don't have the same "warmish" sound.
The description of what you're looking for sounds a lot like what I had been looking for, for years. I haven't bought a non-ProAc speaker since. They're are plenty of good choices out there but all ProAc Response speakers sound perfect to my ears.
I also like the higher end Dali speakers but they don't correspond to what you're looking for as much as the ProAc's.
Good luck! |
I second the guy who suggested digital processing ala Room EQ Wizzard. I'm a renter who's had to deal with all sorts of terrible-sounding rooms, and room correction is an absolute lifesaver.
I currently use MathAudioRoomEQ via Foobar2000, but there are hardware-based solutions that are a better fit if you have analog sources. |
+1 - MAGICO A3s with big tube amp buy it ASAP.
I run my A3's with a Mac MC275 and C2300 pre, streaming through a MCD 500 CD/DAC and Bluesound Node 2i. REL 7ti for the low end. Sublime. |
Hi Jeff, I tried out the 1038 Be2 as well a couple years ago. I found them too bright in my space also. In addition....I was quite disappointed in the bass for three 7 in drivers. A few months ago a nice opportunity came along for some Wilson Audio Sophia 1s. Although I believe the tweeter is still Focal, it is titanium and is much more smooth in my system. It is laughable how much improved the low end and overall sound is compared to the 1038s. My space is large at around 16x40x10 with the speakers at one end facing across the 40 foot area. This ad below has been on here for quite a while. Wilson had some mfg issues several years ago and are such an amazing company they have corrected all these regardless who's hands the speakers are in. This pair has already had that corrected and are like new. This is such a nice sounding speaker...I truly believe I have the speaker that will keep me smiling for decades to come. Good luck! Dana https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisa3beb-wilson-audio-sophia-full-range |
jeffinnh If you're in NH then you have an excellent opportunity to demo most of these speakers. Audio Video Therapy is a Spendor dealer. Fidelis which is 20 minutes away has Harbeth, Sonus, Dynaudio and Vandersteen. Walter the owner of Fidelis is the National USA distributor for Harbeth. Both stores by the way do offer home demos. One other speaker I'd put on the list is Sonner. AVT carries it along w/the Spendor. Also Fidelis is a McIntosh dealer too. |
your preference perfectly describes the Sonus Faber Olympica lll’s
added benefits: gorgeous cabinetry, huge sound stage, detailed and resolving yet relaxed and sweet sonic signature; listening for hours even at high volumes - not a problem |
I know the folks at Audio video therapy well & have previewed many speakers in house. I actually just visited Fidelis two days ago. Unfortunately he was sold out of everything I wanted to hear, but I will be back when stock rolls back in. |
One word answer: Vandersteen
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I have Maggie 3.7i's. They come shipped with a resistor to tame the high's. There are many that feel they have a glare or grain and I will agree that they can sound fatiguing, and were initially ( I had 1.7i's and the 3.7i's are definitely smoother).
I have gradually upgraded my electronics to the point the Maggies are now warm romantic and detailed. Most recently upgraded to an Allnic L-7000 from an L-3000. While the 3000 was spectacular the 7000 washed away the last bit of grain.
Sold the L-3000 to an owner of an L1500. I told him one difference going from the L3000 to the L-7000 was that you don't notice the high frequency's, if you listen they are there but they don't call for attention. The buyer said he noticed the same thing going from the L-1500 to the L-3000.
Don't forget to evaluate the electronics, they can be a part of the problem or the solution. |
+1 on Tannoy Turnberry. I pair them with tubes. You’ll be off the speaker-go-round.
Also, +1 on Sonus Faber. I have some “Vintage” Electa Amators.
These speakers sound very different but both are warm (natural), inviting, and zero listening fatigue. And the soundstage and imaging of both.... wow. |
+1 for eric_squires
Not anything to loose and a great upside.
Best of luck |
I have a long love for electrostats and planers. I have a pair of the Maggie 1.7s. in a medium sized room (14'W x 27'D with a 8'-10' cathedral ceiling). At first I found them to be a bit bright and used a 1ohm resistor in place of the original solid jumper on ea. speaker. After hanging acoustic drapes across the wall behind and carpeted flooring I found that I could go back to the solid jumpers. After a good deal of detail to set up and placement, I am completely amazed at how incredible they sound - a large deep stage with a perfect balance of detail, musicality and imaging. Unlike some who say the Maggies have a very limited sweet spot - my set up does not. Wether the listener is standing or setting, in center or either side of center the stage remains large and rock solid, with vocals and instruments staying firmly planted, where they belong. I can imagine how great the larger 3.7i could sound when properly set up.
Regardless of wether you choose box or planers, as others have suggested, moving your seating location in to about 8-10 ft. and doing a bit of experimenting with placement and positioning (sometimes as little as 1/2 " one way or the other) can make a huge difference in how they sound.
Best of luck Jim
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I have the Focal 1028Be. I have the same issue with brightness. Clear, good bass, never huggable. Switched equipment and cables with some improvement but the main issue unresolved.
This seems to be a common thread with the electra 'BE' series.
I have also heard that the Kanta 2 or 3's are a big improvement, but is it worth the price?
Another responder mentioned a mod, is that for real?.
Call me at ropes end.
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Consider auditioning speakers in the Legacy Audio line. |
I second the votes for Sonus Faber speakers as "warm," of course with the appropriate amp etc. |
in my two past experiences i felt sonus fabers were smooth and warm, at the expense of transient accuracy and dynamicism |
I'm going to throw in a bit of a curveball here.
I use a Devialet Expert Pro with CI board. They've always had bass and treble adjustment but lately they have introduced what they call "Sweet Room". It's meant to be for room correction but it's basically a 9 band equaliser.
Someone came up with the idea of using it as a way to put a 'warm' curve in instead of room correction. I gave it a go and it works a treat. You keep the detail that the Devialet's are known for but you can make it sound as warm (or cold if you wish) as you want.
It just gives you that versatility that you need to make any speaker sound great. On top of that there's SAM, which makes just about any speaker sound better than they are.
Worth a thought.
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I also had a pair of ushers that managed to walk that line. The A21 is impressive in its build and its got power, but it is a little thick and speakers with hot tweeters will expose it. If you like the focal sound why not try the Kanta 2? Same excellent mids but a little warmer balance.
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https://www.vaughnloudspeakers.com/copy-of-productsI have Vaughn Carbernet III idled. My main speaker is Lanshe 4.1 Driven by Rogue Cronus Magnum II, Vaughn Carbernet III sounds warm, romantic but detailed. if you are interested in Vaughn Carbernet III, PM me. If you live in Pacific Northwest, I can let you audition it at either my home or your place. Thomas |
Take a look at MiniDSP options to adjust the sound curve. I have an SHD and it's awesome. Lots of options to adjust highs lows, midrange, etc. |
Hey Jeff,
My suggestions for "warmth and romance" are Harabeth, Spendor, Audio Vector. All three are fairly easy to drive with Audio Vector, at 92 db sensitivity, being the easiest. You can find a new model from each brand in your price range. If you wanted to experiment, I would consider Devore Fidelity and PMC. Good luck and have fun!
If this is of any value/help; I purchased a new pair of Electra 1008 BE bookshelf speakers for $2,999 (orig $5,999). Focal was unloading them. I wanted the Rosewood but black was the only option and it this price...now, I like them. I have them sitting on a pair of custom made Sound Anchor stands which provides an incredibly solid platform and really allows the Focal's to show off their bass capability= simply astonishing for this size speaker. The real gem however, as people who have bought them know, is the Beryllium tweeter. Yes, it can be bright and requires careful matching. I was considering the integrated amps from Belles Aria, Sudgen A21 or Hegel H90. Which one do you think won?? |
I've recently been looking for the same type of speaker you're describing, and I'm being drawn to the Harbeths that have been mentioned. I have a pair of Tektons, but recently replaced them with Maggie 1.7i's. The Tektons are indeed neutral and detailed, but they don't deliver the rich, natural tonal qualities of the Maggies. From what I'm learning, the Harbeths take these qualities to an even higher level. Good luck in your decision. |
For pop and rock music with Harbeth, minimum in my book is SHL5+. They are still capable of sounding dynamic with punch and slam in the bass, only with the right amps. Other good alternatives include Spendor D7 or 7.2 and Tannoy Eaton.
Never liked Focal speakers. Sound too bright and tinny at the top, lean and thin midrange. Harbeth sounds full and warm in the mids but with sufficient detail and sparkle at the top, unlike some speakers from Sonus Faber which sounded pretty much dead with muffled sound and rolled off treble.
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Jeff ,
You are fortunate if you live near Fidelis Audio.It is a great Audio store with a really good staff of people. Would recommend spending more time there to listen to their Harbeth Line up.
I have Harbeth M40.2 speakers and listen to mostly Rock, Hard Rock and POP music. |
