Used tube preamps, Cary, AR, Aesthetix, Wells...........or?

Most of what I've read says that you gain 6 db in gain. Is that the only advantage or is that even an advantage? 

I don't find the added gain when using the balanced circuit in & out to be an advantage at all.  As a matter of fact, I would rather have less gain.  But I live with it because in my system (using an SLP 05) I find that it sounds better using the balanced versus the single ended.  

Pretty much the way I look at it. More gain (if it isn't needed), seems rather pointless. If it sounds better, is it because of the gain or does it actually sound better? My systems have always gotten better sounding as they got louder, at least to a point. At some point, it comes down to diminishing returns and "too loud" is not better. My speakers are a bit power hungry and I've been heavy on power since the mid 70's, never having efficient speakers to drive.

I hear about these systems that are very efficient and people are getting by with  very low power class A systems. I'm sure it can be great, I've just never had such a system. Getting by is probably poor terminology as these folks are not just getting by and this is their end goal. I'd like to hear such a system sometime. I probably just never have. I live in the middle of nowhere so no nice salons around. Been a long time since I went to a high end audio place. So...........I come here.

I don’t use a preamp so I don’t stay up on them. but my DAC serves as a preamp. It accomodates several different types of tubed and currently I’m using 300Bs in it. I highly recommend a preamp with DHT output tubes. If you can’t find one, Aric or Apollo will be glad to make one for you.

My signal path had 3 DHTs in it:  300B to 801A to AD1.

Jerry

@billpete I listen in a small room and I would actually like to utilize more real estate on the volume knob. So using RCAs helps with that, but at the risk of misusing some cliches, I find that using the balanced circuit with my preamp produces more "bloom." Therefore I elect to live with the unwanted gain so I can have the "bloom."

I had an amp that sounded better using XLR inputs.  It used a jensen transformer on the XLR input.  There is no inherent difference between them signal wise so any difference in sound is related to how each one is implemented in the amp.  XLR may sound better in one amp, and RCA in another.  I had my custom amp built with RCA inputs.

immatthewj

I don't find the added gain when using the balanced circuit in & out to be an advantage at all. 

Look at it this way: if you keep the output level the same, you're gaining a 6dB improvement in S/N.

I live with it because in my system (using an SLP 05) I find that it sounds better using the balanced versus the single ended.  

Less noise!

Balanced inputs/output isn’t really about gain, it’s the natural noise rejection due to positive/negative/ground. The lowered the noise floor, the more details you can hear (theoretically). This is one of the reasons recording studios are using balanced connections only. Now in typical hifi the noise levels are so low already that it becomes a moot point. You may see some benefits with longer interconnects however

I owned & really like the Aesthetix Calypso 15 years ago. It was very well built & sounded excellent in Avantgarde Duo system then. I owned an AR preamp  100 years ago which sounded good but developed issues & I sold it. I think their build quality improved after that. 

Audio-GD tube preamps are the best value ...they are very musical .

Not knowing what your budget is, it’s hard to make a recommendation. For full disclosure I am a fan of Audio Research, having gone through a number of preamps and amps in a step-by-step upgrade journey. 

Audio Research preamps stages are well known for their sense of space, openness. and layering. 

If it’s within your budget, I would take a close look at the Ref 3 preamp. It’s 8-10 years newer (2006-) than the Mk II. A Ref 5SE would be an ever bigger step up.

Ultimately it’s a budget + personal preference decision, that can only be made by you. Good luck!

It all depends on what sound you’re looking for as to what preamp to choose.  Warm, smooth, dynamic, more detail, more highs, less highs, etc.  The Cary SLP-98 is a very smooth sounding preamp.  Not the epitome of “detailed” but sweet, warm and with mods can be a fantastic preamp.  The type of coupling caps chosen for upgrade will determine much of the sound.  Also a lot of power supply improvements dramatically help make it a really nice preamp.  I’m a retired tech and know this preamp well.  I prefer the SLP-05 for more detail and frequency extension on both ends although not in its stock form.  Needs some upgrades to smooth it out.  It just depends on the price range you’re looking at.  I’ve modded the heck out of some SLP-98’s and they can sound really beautiful.  Still some people (like me) will want more air, detail, extension).  I’ve never been a big fan of the AR sound but that’s me.  Aesthetix makes amazing equipment although some of the preamps use a lot of tubes.  I have not heard the Dodd preamp but I’ve heard a few battery powered preamps that were truly amazing although those were typically solid state or just certain areas of the circuit run by battery.  

To Jonwolfpell

Which AR preamp did you have? 100 years ago. You must be pretty old. :)

Harpo75

Was hoping to spend 2k to 3k or so, a little more if needed. Many used pres out there in this range, a lot of them were 5k to 10k new. At some point, age becomes an issue. Not sure when that is. 

I appreciate as much detail as I can get. I appreciate when I can listen and feel the instruments or singer in front of me. I like when the sounds are out in space. My favorite cartridge is a very low output MC, Fidelity Research FR1, Mk III F. It has amazing detail, clear highs and very deep bass. It reproduces brass and strings as well as I've ever heard. The AR 9's have tremendous bass, solid mids and decent (better than average) highs. They do classical music the best but I listen to a variety of things, nearly anything but jazz. Closest to jazz for me is Steely Dan or Mannheim Steamroller. Both made some amazing recordings. Virtually every tube or equipment test of any kind for me will involve some Fresh Aire recording on vinyl. Some of the best vinyl recordings ever made in my opinion. Crystal Clear direct to disk are my best classical recordings as well as a few other direct to disks that I have. 

I am always very critical of recording quality, at least how my system does it and how my ears perceive it. About 15 years ago, I sat down with someone who was a retired NASA engineer and re-introduced him to some vinyl. He said he had not listened to a record in 20 years, having switched to CD's. He had AR 3's at home, himself. He was blown away by what he heard. He said it was like being there. I said, "that's the whole idea". This is a guy who used to be married to a concert pianist. He had heard a lot of live music in his day. We listened to several of my best classical LP's, most if not all, were D2D, Telarc and Crystal Clear. Might have  been one or two that were not but if so, were just great anaolog examples. Anyway, fun day and a very fond memory.

Currently using another LOMC, Sumiko Talisman S. A very nice cartridge in it's own right but the FR is better, to my ears. I also have several MM's that I listen to now and then, Shure V15III, Shure V15IV, Denon DL109R, Nagatron 185E. I enjoy all of them but have my favorites. All my stuff is old. At some point, some things need to be replaced or repaired. Who knows what's next? At this point, it is the preamp. Thanks very much for all the advice. 

Bimmerlover

Thanks. AR gets a lot of attention. There seems to be a group who does not like it and another that does. Always the way, I guess. I think much of it has to be synergy with other components. Lots of things in the mix. For a vinyl nut like me, even more. Cartridge, stylus, SUT when needed, separate phono preamp, separate preamp, tubes (tremendous variety there alone) amps, cables and wiring, speakers. That's a load of crap to "synergize". 

I appreciate the reply. There is a ref5 currently available at around 5k. I'd just hate to drop 5k and find out that I'm in the "I don't care for AR" camp. There are a couple lower models too, LS17 and another but I don't know much about them. Anyway, thanks very much. Always like to hear other's experiences, likes, dislikes and why they feel the way they do.

Bill

JerryCarlsbad2

Do you listen to vinyl at all? Just curious what your system consists of. I don't think a DAC works for me but I don't know either. I'm kind of stuck in the 20th century. 

bill Pete- just a silly figure of speech. It was in 1981 & it was already 3 or 4 years old. I don’t remember the model number. 

@billpete ...There seems to be a group who does not like it and another that does.

You can find a differing position on the internet for just about anything if you look hard enough. And people typically like what they have when they own it at the beginning. You can find posts by the same person two years later after they sold it and share what the did not like about it. You have to try things in your system to know if you like it or not. One person likes something better or worse than the next person.

Unless others have all the exact same components and room size/shape you do, it’s a crapshoot at best. Next comes your ears and preferences. You can get general ideas when someone is comparing A vs. B, and take that with a grain of salt. Go listen in different places if you can. Thats more fun and helpful to get ideas. Also you'll see certain groups of components paired up together that people have found experimenting prepping for shows and audio showrooms and such.  

jonwolfpell

Yes, I sort of guessed it was a figure of speech. :) Thanks for narrowing it down though. Thangs likely changed a lot for AR from the 80's to now. I just don't really get the opportunity to hear anything other than my own system. It's likely 3 to 4 hours in any direction for me to find a high end store..........or even a store that sells any decent audio equipment. I have to trust what I read here and elsewhere. When something gets a lot of good revues (not paid revues), it gets my attention. The more good that I hear about it, the more I become interested in something.

decooney

See my above response. There really is nowhere anywhere near me to have a listen. I am 3 hours plus from St Louis, Kansas City, midway between the two. I retired here from IL 12 years ago. Lots of choices back there but it is now 6 hours away. Des Moines is 4 plus hours, might be something there. Quincy IL is an hour or so, could be something there? Don't know. I'm getting old (72), don't relish driving so much anymore. 

I do have the opportunity to buy from places like Music Direct, The Music Room and probably others where the opportunity to listen to something and return if I don't like it, is a possibility. I did this once a few years ago with a phono preamp. I think it was Musical Surroundings, no idea what model. I can't even be sure it was Musical Surroundings but I think so. Was a store demo, can't remember if it was 1200 bucks, down from 1600 or if it was 1600 down from 2k, just don't remember for sure. I was trying to see if I could go back to all SS and it didn't fit my needs at all. Maybe I didn't give it a fair shake, didn't have something set right but I tried everything with it and just found that all the detail I had with the Cary, including bass extension, high frequency response and just plain overall "detail", was lost. I sent it back.

Hey jonwolfpell

What made you sell the Calypso? 

@billpete - totally understand. Thanks for the added context about the situation. Well, the old buy / demo / keep-or-return thing works too and how many go about this. I buy from the places you mentioned and the few returns I’ve made, never had any issues. If you do decide to retrace the Cary path, the 98s come up from time to time. I enjoy mine, bought it new, and use it for my tube monoblocks and SS amps both, fwiw.  

decooney

Thanks again. I think maybe the phono pre that I tried from MD, was Musical Fidelity, not Musical Surroundings but I'm not 100% certain. Whatever it was, it did not do it for me and I decided to stay with the Cary PH301. I just thought that old tubes were getting scarce and pricey and maybe I'd run out of them one day. I have not and all is well. I at least am encouraged by the fact that there seems to be some new tubes that people use "and like". For the PH301, I probably have plenty of vintage tubes to last the rest of my life. 

I'm sure I'd be happy with an SLP 98 if it had the upgrades, not sure without them. Used ones do show up from time to time that have all the latest upgrades. I did talk with Cary some time ago about building me a new one and it may still be an option, just not sure for how long.

There are a couple others up for consideration as well. There is an Aesthetix Calypso Signature, Backert Labs Rhumba 3.1 and several different ARC models as well as McIntosh. From what I read and the features, the Calypso might be the best fit for me. I'm not ruling any of these out. 

Bill

@billpete Nice. Another one you might consider adding if you are looking at The Calypso is Dan’s Modwright LS100 Tube Linestage. Uses lower gain 12au7s vs. the prior 12aX7s now. TMR has them. Being bold, I would hope it would stomp the prior MF you had, but maybe that’s just me liking what we see under the hood I have not clue how it sounds, but I was talking with Dan about his amps some.

His phono stage seems to be a separate unit if you require that. If I did not own my Cary SLP98 that I keep, might be fun to try one of Dan’s preamp/linestages. Maybe another to add to your list fwiw. If anything, something else to look at, compare to. :)

I have considered the Modwright stuff but not as much. Just found less about it and have not read as much as some of the others. I'm sure there are quite a few that would make me very happy. The list of things to study up on, never ends. 

The MF was easily stomped by the old Cary phono stage that I have so it was an easy decision to stay with it. 

The phono stage in the Cary SLP-98P is nice and simple and being it’s all inside the 98 (no external cables) it sounds pretty good.  Not easily adjustable (cartridge loading) but sounds great as it’s just a pair of 12AX7’s for gain with the 12AU7’s.  There’s not a ton of room inside for mods but enough room to make very nice upgrades to bring its to a very good audiophile level.  If you’re looking for the utmost in audio it’s not there.  Might look at the Aesthetix. The Cary PH-302 is a really good phono preamp if you’re considering a separate but it’s very important to match tubes for gain between the channels. 

@billpete as per your post above, and @harpo75’s note, so are you thinking you might keep the Cary PH-302 as your phono preamp and then use that with a Cary SLP-98L or some other preamp of your choice then? If so, then maybe it might be fun to just hang on until the right SLP-98L comes up again. I’ve been watching the used market on SLP-98s and SLI-80s for friends over the past 5 years since I got my Cary SLP-98L new and sold my prior Cary SLI-80 and Cary V12R both. Btw, harpos post reminded a mention to say the suffix of "L" is for Linestage, "P" is for built-in phono preamp if that was not already obvious. And reference to harpo mentioning the "P" in SLP-98P with built in phono preamp. You probably knew this already I suspect. I bought the "L" version in case I ever wanted different external Phono preamps.

Now seeing more of the newer version 98s units pop up the last two years as people move to different DAC/Tube/Preamps and such for streaming and such. It’s been around a while and people move on to the latest and greatest, whatever the flavor and new hype of the year is it seems. I care less about all of that, and happy to say my 98 preamp is going nowhere any time soon. :)

I liked my Cary SLP-98F1 better than the two ARs I had.

billpete

You cannot go wrong with Asthetix, ARC or Cary. At this level, it is a matter of taste.

If considering Aesthetix, go for a Calypso Signature. If considering ARC, go for the Ref5 SE. These models are still relevant in 2025.

Happy Listening!

Thanks to all who coached me here.

I took the plunge and bought the Aesthetix Calypso, Signature edition. Used unit from TMR, very well priced. I'm guessing I'm going to love it. Tube rolling not as simple as with a Cary but I'll likely find a combination that I like and stick with it. It comes with two Mullard CV4004 (same as 12ax7?) and two CV2493. The latter, I know nothing about. If CV4004 is same as AX7, I have a lot of choices in my own tube collection. 

I've been watching and studying Cary SLP98 preamps for about a year. I understand nearly everything about them and the people at Cary told me that my Cary PH301 (not 302), is a much better phono pre than what they put into the SLP 98P. I mostly considered the 98L for that reason. If a really nice 98P had come along, I may have picked it up and would just have that many more options to run multiple turntables or at least leave two or three of them hooked up. I have at least half a dozen turntables and multiple cartridges. It's all old so a problem with one, just pull up another and so on. From Lenco, AR, Sansui, Micro Seiki, VPI, I think that's about it. I often think it would be nice if I could have 3 of them wired into the system and avoid cartridge swaps or moving turntables etc. 

Thanks again to all who guided me through this process. I'll post again when I have the Calypso in the system to let you know what I think of it. 

How many noticed that I spelled review as revue? Old age is so much fun. I find my spelling really has suffered over the last few years. Weird. I can still hear pretty well and still love my music. Many thanks, guys.

Bill

@billpete 

There is an upgraded Cary SLP-98L on USAM for $2k.  I've been eyeballing it for a while now, surprised it's still available.  Good luck with your search.

There has been a red one listed for quite a long time. I've been skeptical about it. I don't know why, just "feels weird". See above, I bought the Calypso.

In my search, mostly watching what TMR had, they sold the Cary SLP98, an Aesthetix Calypso, first verseion, a Backert Rhumba and others that I had been watching. They move some gear. Thanks,

Bill

Don't Capacitors deteriorate over time and negatively impact sound quality? So buying used sometimes may not be a great idea

Don't Capacitors deteriorate over time and negatively impact sound quality? So buying used sometimes may not be a great idea

@emergingsoul The capacitors in question are usually electrolytics. If we are talking about a tube preamp, those capacitors are usually in the power supply section; the coupling caps are usually some kind of film capacitor. Film caps tend to last a long time compared to electrolytics.

In a tube preamp, the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply are likely suspect after about 25 years- 30 years on the outside. Unless there was some sort of production problem, buying a 10 year old preamp should not be a concern.

atmasphere

Thanks very much for that. My Cary is getting to that age, so are my amps. Next system upgrades may be the amps. I may just have them rebuilt, which would put them back in shape for another 30 years or so. I have zero complaints about them. If I ever did think about replacing them, it would likely be something that is class A, which can get into stilly money. Not likely to happen, since I can have mine rebuilt for a reasonable amount. I can do them  one at a time, back down to running one at a time until both were done. 

Congratulations on the Aesthetic Calypso. I owned an Aesthetix Callisto Eclipse preamp and Rhea Signature phono stage for some years prior to changing over to an all Conrad Johnson system. For 6922 style tubes, I had preferred either late 60's Siemens CCa's or ECC88's. 

@awise1961 Congratulations on the Aesthetic Calypso. I owned an Aesthetix Callisto Eclipse preamp and Rhea Signature phono stage for some years prior to changing over to an all Conrad Johnson system. For 6922 style tubes, I had preferred either late 60’s Siemens CCa’s or ECC88’s.

It's interesting when we see members move from a capable product set to something else like in your case. Possibly looking for a particular signature of sound you were aware of (???) -or- just to make a change since they’ve been with the prior components for a while, this happens too - people just want to try something else of course. @awise1961 gotta question for ya if I may ask. 

Sometimes friends of mine do this too, in an attempt to steer back towards something they had or knew well in the past, looking to recapture that "sound".

• What were some of the reasons you decided to switch from your prior (capable) components to the "all Conrad Johnson system", if you don’t mind sharing more?

awise

Thanks for this. A buddy of mine had Siemens tubes in his CJ preamp. They did a very nice job . I don't think I have any Siemens in my collection but I might. I bought large lots of tubes many years ago. I look through groups of them every now and then to try and figure out why I did but I do find a good one here and there that I can use. I also bought a whole sales kit of NOS Sylvania tubes. I don't remember what all is in it but it was cheap and it was a lot of tubes. I also used to find NOS Sylvania Gold Pin (triple mica) 5751's for $30 or so, used ones for around $15 to $18. I bought all I could find at those prices and I'm glad I did. That was over 20 years ago and I still have them all. Anyway, thanks for the comments. Much appreciated. 

Russ69

What AR's did you have? Just wondering. I read mostly favorable comments on AR, especially from the 5 and 6 series. Funny how this stuff goes. I think a lot of people have upgraditis. I'm not really one of them.

decooney

I had initially changed out an Aestheix Atlas amp for a pair of CJ LP275M mono's. Each amp has eight of the ST120 power tubs and three 6922s. I felt they made my big Wilson Alexias soubd even better (deeper extension, more soundstage). I had thought of going with Atlas mono's but once I locked on to the big CJ's there was no going back. After that I got a chance to try a CJ GAT S1 preamp and it fit wonderfully in between the be mono's. As good as the Callisto sounded, the GAT was right there with it and took up less space and has a lot fewer tubes. The Callisto was the Eclipse level with sperate power supply and separate remote control box. If I remember correctly, there were at least seventeen tubes total. Again, it was a great preamp, just the GAT was its equal, but in an easier to live with form factor, Then, I replaced the Rhea phono stage with my CJ TEA1 S3. The Rhea was the Signature level and before selling the Callisto, I had considered having it upgraded to Eclipse level. However, I came across the TEA and after demoing it, I was convinced it was an upgrade from the RHEA and it gave me the opportunity to have a complete CJ system. Please don't get me wrong, I have the utmost admiration for Aesthetix. Build quality and sound is first rate. I'm just happier living with my CJ system.

I have owned both the ARC Ref. 2 Mk.II and the ARC. Ref 3. I thought they were both fantastic, the Ref. 3 not quite as bloomy. I am getting away from tubes because having to change tubes in a preamp is a pain. But I would still be running the ARC Ref. 3 if it weren't for that. I loved it. Huge soundstage without a lot of tube romanticism. I now have the a Pass XP-30, the top of their line, and it sounds very much like the ARC Ref. 3.

owned the SLP98 with phono for several years and loved it, eventually bought the PH302 separate phono stage and had Cary mod it to the mk II version including an external power supply (standard on their latest phono pre)

sold the SLP98 in favor of a First Sound tube dual mono pre with twin external power supplies and never looked back

for many the lack of a remote on the First Sound could be a deterrent, but the sound quality is excellent in all aspects

Thanks guys

I think about the Aesthetix and tube rolling. Someone made a case that the cover was held by velcro, can't remember who. Have to settle on what I like at some point, not such an easy swap out. Cary's are nice for that reason but they also sound very damn good.

My PH301 has external power supply and slave cable. It seems that there is a lot to be said for such things. The 05 has external PS that is different, as large as the preamp (case anyway). Don't find many negative comments about any of these components that have been discussed. Thanks for all. Fun stuff.

If can find a Luxman C35mk2 in good shape buy it.  I've tried Mac new and used but the luxman is in a league of its own. Good luck and happy shopping 

Pros/Cons to each of these different setups. I find it truly depends on the type of sound you are going for. CJ, Cary, ARC, Pass, Aesthetic, and more...

A colleague has Harbeth 40.2s he paired ups with his CJ 6550 Monos and a CJ GAT preamp. He then bought my upgraded Cary V12R, sold his older SLP-98 preamp, and went out and bought the latest Cary SLP-98 like I have, he added Mundorf caps, and compared for a while. He likes both systems for different reasons when paired with his Harbeth speakers. He also has B&W Speakers that he moved his CJ gear to,. and it worked well for him there. The Cary gear was paired up with the Harbeth speakers for a while, and I went and listened to it back and forth between the Cary and CJ gear. Each system, CJ or Cary had its own type of sound. One was more open and velvety, other a bit more laid back and smooth.

He then took my former upgraded Cary V12R and tried it with these high $ ribbon speakers, https://alsyvox.com, and he and his buddy could not believe the sound compared to other gear at 5x the price. Why? [synergy, matching, different type of sound - maybe]. Perhaps it was just a new/different presentation to hear.  

I put more credibility to "matching" now days than anything else. Amp A or B might sound better with different speakers, each in their own way. What it comes down to as my audio buddy drills into my head, "it all comes down to your preference", "whatever you like" is what matters most. Preference varies a lot between many of my own friends and audio-buddy colleagues, fwiw.