Whether the DDC could help depends a lot on your DAC. It could help, or it could be "redundant" to internal DAC electronics.
I do echo the idea of a streamer though. Not just for POTENTIAL sound improvement but overall function. That is, if you use Tidal or Qobuz and can implement Roon. You get all the benefits of an amazing computer interface through their remote apps and a dedicated server to endpoint connection for the best feed to your DAC.
I've had stability issues with Roon, but it's still worth it to use it.
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Mesch
Dump the PC please. I know that PCs can be set up to provide great streaming quality, but it involves quite a bit of knowledge, software, and hardware.
(1) Buy a inexpensive streamer. A BlueSound Node 130 (not the Node 2 or 2i as they do not have a functional USB output). They have a USB port, but it is not functional for output. The the Node 130 has a great user interface, and can be found used for under $300
Another option would be the Wiim Ultra (not the Wiim Pro or Pro Plus....they do not have USB output). They are $329 new, and by all reports are excellent for the money. I have never used one, so can't comment on the user interface
(2) Buy a Denafrips Iris 12th DDC, they can be bought new for $550 from Denafrips, eBay for about $510, and $400 if you are comfortable using AliExpress. It will support your current connections, but also add AES/EBU and I2S for future proof.
(3) Use a reasonably good USB cable like the Supra Excalibur USB for $110 for 1 meter, or the DHLabs Max Bandwidth USB for $90
Total cost under $1,000, and you will end up with a very very good streaming set up with a good user interface.
(4) Alternatively you could also start with a very good entry level streamer like the Innuous Zen Mini $2,400, Auralic G1.1 $3,200, or Lumin U2 Mini $2,400. You could then bypass the use of the Iris DDC, and connect those directly to your DAC.....I'd lean to the Innuous or Lumin. Unfortunately Aurender products would be quite a bit more money.
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@iansr Sorry, I will check out the PM problem. If regarding my BEL amp I replied on that thread. I sold it 4 years ago.
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@mesch I’m tried to PM you but you must have disabled that function. Can you PM me please.
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To the OP, this is how I use my system daily. A laptop USB -> to a Gaia DDC, then out via I2S (or coax) to DAC. It works quite well.
Of course when you use a PC, for best results you MUST have it where the OS doesn’t mess with the output. For example, exclusive driver mode with Qobuz or Tidal. Doing so, the results then (with the USB isolation and reclocking of the DDC) are sonically as good as any streamer I have heard.
Otherwise, if the OS messes with the files the results are less than stellar.
I need the test aspects a nb can provide in my system, and having worked in OEM nb development for over 15 years I happen to have some engineering samples laying around and put them to use ;) But the main reason then I’d use a streamer instead is for example, some of them can realtime upsample at high quality (eg, Lumin). It’s a bit buggy but can sound great for example, feeding DSD (or 8x PCM) to a PSAudio DS DAC for example.
But of course we can also use something like HDPlayer on the PC, something I should get off my slow b*tt and see about finally ;) But meanwhile having offline upsampled some PCM test files to DSD and to 8x PCM for a test to same DAC I can verify it can work fabulous sent through the PC chain (using Foobar player).
PS we are now N America sales and service for Denafrips, working with Mike Lee. The service aspect continues from before but the sales part is new. Adding the Denafrips line to the site as we speak. I would wager that nobody knows Denafrips in N America quite like we do by now, having done service support for several years by now. Looking forward to some great times ahead :)
TK TEKAudioSpecialties.com
Just a link to a quickie phone vid in my friend's super system a few months back. Streaming with the Lumin on upsampling out. We were shaking down a pair of new TK Ultra_EXB7 in there, redesigned (and fabulous) monoblock amps. Also using a super good, highly improved DSD DAC. He also has the full loom of AQ Dragon cables. Some might get an idea at least: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oo83-tRKe80WWLKD7nkJda-nH12l7vc_/view?usp=sharing
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Many years ago, I started streaming Tidal with a dedicated laptop. Besides the laptop itself being tricked out, it also had Fidelizer Pro software*, a USBe Perfect, a dedicated LPS - with a custom DIY umbilical cord, a dedicated power conditioner, a dedicated DDC - all with quality power cords.
@sns spent years sharing his knowledge & experience of improving his streaming quality with posts on Audiogon. I listened to his advice. Bought a pre-owned streamer to try out. Within 5 minutes of listening, I put the laptop in storage. Haven’t looked back. Now my streaming SQ has surpassed my CD transport/DAC combo. I discovered that using the DDC with the streamer - improved the SQ even more.
- - - -
* Fidelizer software turns off PC functions not needed for audio. Besides the Pro version, they have an introductory version that can be downloaded for free.
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@deep_333 +1.
This was the central point behind my earlier message, but it was not described as succinctly as you.
I have spoken to 2 individuals who tried moderately expensive name-brand streamers to replace a music and TV room set of operation similar to what I have. Both told me that if there was any difference in sound quality it was too small for the expense and loss of all the convenience with my current operation.
@firstonetallguy .. Many of these guys may not know how to build a audio optimized PC or have knowledge of computing hardware/software. I think that’s where some of these false belief systems arise.
This is all it takes....
- A high quality, very low ripple, etc PC power supply (seasonic platinum, ~200 bucks) or other...
- small ITX board (without any overclocking frills, ~150 bucks)
- some higher core Ryzen APU, ~200 bucks (i.e. no discrete noisy graphics card involved)
- Put it all in a HTPC case like these ones made by Silverstone (~100 bucks) and it will like a stereo amplifier sitting on your rack, have the same form factor.
You can undervolt these things so it barely sips any power or generates any spurious noise...or not..doesn’t really matter that much. Use ASIO or Wasapi with your player (like foobar2000) so you lock out any interference from the rest of the OS.....and you’re good to go.............But, when one doesn’t know, he’ll shell out 20k to some vulture for a 1-trick pony that doesn’t sound any better. I can open some of these vulture priced streamers and show you the same 150 dollar itx board tucked away inside. The chassis will be fancy though, to apparent audiophile standards, i.e., justify a pricetag of 20k.
Or....if one’s a PC hardware noob, forget the PC hardware research and custom PC build....Just get a Beelink pre-built mini pc (~300 bucks) fresh off Amazon with a Ryzen 5800H, about the size of your palm) and power it with a high quality linear power supply. Despite its diminutive size, It’s a full blown computer and you can even play some less demanding games on it, not to mention everything else in life you wanna do with your wireless keyboard+mouse sitting on your couch. Since USB doesn’t rely on the streamer or PC’s clock (like toslink, coax, etc), everything just depends on how good a external dac you may have...and how good the DAC's ASIO driver is, who wrote it. It is important to use ASIO or WASAPI with your PC’s player however.
I’ll eat my hat if someone got much better sound out of his 20k streamer or 40k streamer when plugged into the same dac, whatever dac that might be.
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@deep_333 +1.
This was the central point behind my earlier message, but it was not described as succinctly as you.
I have spoken to 2 individuals who tried moderately expensive name-brand streamers to replace a music and TV room set of operation similar to what I have. Both told me that if there was any difference in sound quality it was too small for the expense and loss of all the convenience with my current operation.
@sns
"Using general purpose computers for critical listening in high end audio systems totally defeats the purpose of having a high end system."
I totally disagree with this statement. IMO, that is like saying using CDs, not vinyl, for critical listening in high-end audio systems totally defeats the purpose of having a high end system.
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Again thanks to all for the input. I feel I need to clarify a few points.
I am not thinking of using the Iris in my primary system. I would use the DDC in my secondary system which is composed of a Rogue Sphinx V3 integrated, Musical Fidelity M3SCD DAC/Transport, Esoteric MG10 speakers. I can output from the DDC via SPDIF coax. I misspoke about running out from USB. I have considered getting a Node Streamer and should I do so I believe the Iris would serve it. Several posted that it made an improvement with it.
Prior to making any purchase I must first get past the point made by @sns regarding treating as a main source component or a utilitarian tool.
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Go all in, treating as an important source component or keep as pure utilitarian tool.
@sns Big +1.
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Best improvement to computer sound is to ditch it.
A cheap streamer's cost is a fraction of a DDC.
A computer offers a lot of possibilities and user friendliness.
You could have a HTPC plugged into your big screen and sit back on your couch with a wireless keyboard+mouse. Can you imagine the posibilites? You can watch music videos, watch artist interviews, google things, get on the forums, read the news, etc...do all kinds of things while you're listening to hifi.
Streamers are a one trick pony, i.e., a dog faced pony soldier.
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@mesch
For the price of the Iris, you can get a new Bluesound Node. As an all in one unit it is a good streamer with a good DAC and great software. I used one for years and the newer ones are even better.
All the best.
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Using general purpose computers for critical listening in high end audio systems totally defeats the purpose of having a high end system. I can understand for background music or discovering new music for physical media purchases. But if this the purpose why even bother playing through main system or taking half steps for improving sound quality. Go all in, treating as an important source component or keep as pure utilitarian tool.
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If there were any dedicated unit that would give me the same visual enjoyment and convenience that I have now and improve the excellent sound I currently have, I would be interested.
@firstonetallguy Here’s some good evidence from an above post by @tds3371 who also uses a Gaia from his computer and got a significant improvement from simply adding a modest Node streamer. If he got worthwhile improvements from a Node one can reasonably assume adding a better streamer from Innuos, Aurender, etc. would provide even greater improvements.
Long story short: I’m truly amazed at how good it all sounds - especially for the modest cost. As others have stated, a dedicated streamer (even a spartan, entry-level model like the Nano) is, IMHO, definitely worth considering.
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A computer is not ideal because of all the compromises. It’s not designed to be quiet and free of noise.
I upgraded to All DigiOne Signature with Linear Power Supply and the sound is very noticeable. Way more detailed.
the two endpoints of our rigs are most critical (source and speakers) so anything u can do to improve the source will matter.
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@mesch
I would try something like the ifi silencer+/usb noise filter at $59. It makes so much more sense than the DDC in your application.
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@mesch
Going from a Jay's transport to an Audio mirror dac has to spoil you pretty good soundwise. If all you need your computer to dac for is background music for a secondary system, I seriously doubt you will hear a noticeable difference with a DDC. We are usually talking critical listening here, not background music. And a DDC main goal is to turn usb feed into something else, AES, I2s, coax or optical. Going usb in and usb out is just unheard of. Since you were talked into the DDC I hope it will make you happy. BTW, I do use one, turning usb into I2s. It does the required job.
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Having been streaming directly (using foobar2000) from a Windows OS tablet into into a Denafrips Gaia DDC (and Venus II DAC) via cabled USB, I recently purchased the Bluesound Node Nano ($299). The system wirelessly draws from my personal iTunes library (no online services) housed on an office desktop (no dedicated NAS) - and is routed into the Gaia via digital coax. The supplied interface (BlueOS) is pretty good and easy to use - though I did have some minor "trail and error" issues configuring the file-sharing parameters of my home network/music files. Long story short: I’m truly amazed at how good it all sounds - especially for the modest cost. As others have stated, a dedicated streamer (even a spartan, entry-level model like the Nano) is, IMHO, definitely worth considering. Terry
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I thank all for the input.
My primary system is a modest high end system playing CDs via Jay's transport into Audio Mirror DAC. I have explored the purchase of a streamer (say $4K) for this system however prefer the CD avenue at the moment. I have visited the many AG threads toward that possibility, not having to introduce another.
Streaming is primarily used in my secondary and tertiary systems via Qobuz. Most times I use streaming for background music. I would use the USB interface most often out of the DDC. Hence my question was focused on the Iris for computer streaming.
The feedback I have received so far supports that the Iris would make an improvement and to me be worth the dollars spent. I will likely purchase one.
I will keep all posted as to my progress. Thanks again!
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It's amazing to see that some folks on this audiophile site still choose to stream music directly from computer to dac. An inexpensive streamer will improve your experience 10 fold vs adding any DDC between your computer and dac. Not speaking of experience, just common sense. Computer noise is what you are trying to improve. A streamer will do that, a DDC won't.
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I agree with @jastralfu, I’m running a dedicated fanless silent mini PC with optimized settings, no extra programs other than iPad connectivity, fed by cat5 cable from industrial grade switch fed by optical fiber internet service streaming Qobuz. PC connection to IRIS with good quality USB, and IRIS to Pontus II by I2S cable. Less than $3k in all of the above. I think I’d have to spend double or triple thar on dedicated streamer a la Grimm, Aurender, Lumin, etc., to get the same performance. Really just personal preferences and choices.
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If you spend $4k on a innuos streamer to your dac then it’s noticeably
better and has a good interface like Roon but free
any decent ddc and computer will beat the blue sound it’s just purposely made just for cleaning the signal ,blue sound inside even the latest not much filtering at all
and the dac I would never use ,you can buy a pretty decent R2R dac new for under $700
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I’m going to contradict myself some relative to my last post. I think the DDC is a good upgrade especially if you use a laptop to stream. Many here state that computer audio pales in comparison to a good streamer, not necessarily expensive just good at streaming. That has not been my experience. I had a HiFi Rose 250a which was a great unit but not quite as good as my laptop to DDC/DAC. I don’t know at what point a quality streamer would eclipse my current digital stack but I haven’t found it yet. Streaming with a WIIM Pro did not sound as good as the laptop, both connected to the DDC/DAC combo. I did use the optical input for the WIIM vice USB for the laptop, so it’s not exactly apples to apples. Would a Bluesound, Aurender, Innuos etc sound better than my laptop? Maybe, even likely but I’d still run the signal through the Hermes so it’s not like I’ve spent money on something I wouldn’t use. The Iris is $550 the Hermes is $1300. At this point I think I’d need to spend two to three times the cost of the Hermes to better the laptop. The DDC will serve you well and would work with any streamer upgrade you might make.
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Denafrips IRIS in front of Denafrips Pontus II made a significant improvement in soundstage depth and width as well as clarity and detail. Now I now what a “black” background sounds like.. I’d estimate a 20% improvement, subjective of course. $500 well spent on a modest $20k rig. You should also consider a dedicated power line with true earth ground and upgrade power outlets, another 5 to 10 percent improvement. With digital source, seems the cleaner the power and signal the better.
Paul McGowan talked about the digital signal in recent Copper Magazine and the early Genesis Digital Lens, basically a DDC. System synergy is important and everything can make a difference. If you can hear it, it matters, if you can’t, it doesn’t.
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Yes it makes a nice upgrade IMO to your dac
even their newer 12 th the Hermes having better of everything
including dual oven controlled clocks and much better regulation and isolation is
worth the extra bucks but if you don’t have the $$. The Iris 12 is the best ddc I have heard under a grand ,much better then the old iris2 and for sure use I2S that is by far the best just use a good brand I2S cable ,yes they look like a hdmi cable
but ones made for audio have better dielectric and build quality .we have tried $100 hdmi , and a few brands I am not spending $600:on a I2S cable. AQ or Wireworld
Are popular.
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Bluesound is coming out with all new streamers, some soon, some in November. New current year models will likely be available on sale both before and after the newest models are released.
Regardless of comparisons, the bluesound streamers sound good, I have found the bluesound operating system great, but you definitely need a good external DAC which you already appear to have.
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You don’t need a good streamer. My 1st, a $200 Bluesound sounds better than any computer that I’ve ever heard.
This after playing computer sound here for at least 10 years.
There are many software alternatives. Like Tidal connect. I play mostly local files so it's a non issue. I'd rather listen to live performances instead of of crowd reactions, intros and personnel reporting.
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I agree with @soix @fuzztone that the best solution would be to get a good streamer. I've not done that due to being addicted to the interface for both Tidal and Qobuz via MacBook. I had a WIIM Pro streamer for a day but my laptop into the DDC/DAC sounds better than the WIIM into it. The WIIM software was pretty good but the Mac interface is so much better. I will likely get around to trying a high end streamer to see what that does but at the moment I'm happy with my setup.
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Best improvement to computer sound is to ditch it.
A cheap streamer's cost is a fraction of a DDC.
Who you crappin'?
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Your most effective upgrade by far would be a good separate streamer, but it’s hard to think a DDC wouldn’t provide at least some improvement over that mess of a signal coming out of your computer. I put an Iris between my streamer and DAC and the improvement was significant in the same ways as described by @jastralfu above — background noise I didn’t know was there was stripped away and everything just popped more within an expanded 3D soundstage is the best way I can describe it. I bought the Iris used so in case it didn’t work out I could just sell it, but it’s not going anywhere unless I spring for a Hermes in the future. Hope this helps, and best of luck.
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I stream from a laptop via USB to a Hermes DDC running I2S into a Pontus II 12th DAC. I ran the Pontus by itself for an awhile. Adding the Hermes was worth the cost imho. I purchased it used as well, from TMR, so I figured it was worth the expense even if it didn’t work out as selling or returning it would not have been difficult. However, it improved clarity, soundstage depth and width, imaging and transients. It was not a night and day difference but, at least to my ears, a very noticeable improvement. I would expect the Iris would likely add something similar to your system.
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