Unbelievable 3-D imaging sound

Let the children play.

I also have the Martin Logan Renaissance 15A electrostaticsJust now getting them set up in a small dedicated room.Also have the ML Illusion ESL C34A Center Channel speakerWish I had a larger room...but will be asking for help soon!

I cannot recall the last time I adjusted bass or treble, I am not saying that my way is best - I’m just saying that’s how I listen to my music in my room.

but there are many times listening to my system that i do wish i did

there is such incredible variation in the sonic balance of different recordings...

Actually, I must confess, I love this thread. I like the input of “ To Equalize Or Not To equalize” I will equalize music all day long, if, and I mean if, I feel it’s required. 
However,  I do understand the “Not To Equalize” theory a lot  of audiophile insist upon. 
 I was all over the board today for hours and listen to my various playlists such as Rock, Vocals, Jazz Vocals, Piano, Guitar, Country, violins, Heavy Jazz, Dizzy Gillespie, Motown. No Rap today though.  With No equalizer, no Treble, no bass adjustments. Basically flat and I enjoyed the hell out of it. Tomorrow I may/ most likely will tweak a frequency or a few. And I will enjoy it all over again, this time with a different sound. Can’t wait

I confess that I am taking my EQ to where I live in the summer to see if I can tweak the match between ... well, all of 3-4 components.  Plus the room ... plus where I sit ...  I'm pretty sure I will fuss with it for a while then forget about it.  But I suppose that's better than leaving it to rot here.  My stuff is pretty low-end compared to what is discussed here, so in that sense, I'm no audiophile.  But I still get that rush that most of you do (far more frequently) when on certain recordings in certain conditions in certain states of mind, I am suddenly astounded at how good something sounds.

I cannot recall the last time I adjusted bass or treble, I am not saying that my way is best - I'm just saying that's how I listen to my music in my room.

I appreciate your desire not to EQ. Everybody has their preference and I respect that. I can see EQing becoming an obsession. Normally it does, but, for me. It does not. I’ll listen to music one way for awhile and then another way for awhile. As well as no EQ at all. I like options. I’ve had EQ before. And some times not making changes for months at a time. 
I assume then that you guys don’t adjust subwoofers levels, treble and base on your preamps. I can take this farther that you don’t adjust volume as much either. I’m sure the original recorded sound was at one particular volume. That would be hard to duplicate who knew with the original volume could be

jdane 8 - I agree, no EQ for me.

Not sure why so many assume that the purpose of a system should be to "reproduce" the input, or "exactly what musicians/engineers wanted."  Most of us go to live music (well, I do anyway), and there is no such thing as a "standard" sound/signal or "correct" sound/signal or whatever you want to call this.  What you hear (or what is measurable as well) depends entirely on where you are sitting and of course on the hall itself.  A symphony in no way sounds the same when you are sitting to one side, way in the balcony, center row front, or even behind.  Even in chamber music, the amount of extraneous sound (keys clattering on a clarinet; fingers sliding on strings, players breathing) depends on how close you are. (is that part of the "music"? well, maybe or maybe not).  And what we hear is NOT what players hear (many of whom, of course, are hearing impaired ... even worse than we are).  So EQ away if you want (I don't, but only bec. it becomes an obsession that distracts me from hearing sound and doing whatever my ears and mind do to translate that into "music").

If you like sonic imagine tricks.... Amused to Death has sound coming from behind you...those studeo magicians

Totally agree with you, when a system totally dialed in, it would give you the most thrilling enjoyment. It's a real pleasure to experience every mm move we make on our speakers and observe how the sound stage changes. :)

Bikerneil
Been waiting for someone with a similar setup to comment on this point. So glad someone experiences the same sound and imaging that I do. It is unbelievable,  the sound is so
good to me that I am completely satisfied as I have said prior
 The point you make about these type of speaker positioning is critical.  I’ve have this system for more than a year.  It a disappointment me to say this, but I  just recently, within the last few weeks, I finally made the proper speaker adjustments and I now have the sound that you and I are describing as well. A full year, but now I’m here. 
I just traded In my C47 picked up a McIntosh C53. With the built in 8 band equalizer. One of the truly first, I think, Preamps with a equalizer that does not diminish the sound from what I hear.  The comments from many  popular high level audiophile reviewers also confirms this minimum loss, if any, due to the equalizer. I 
cant wait to play with the sound variations to my liking. Or to simply turn off the EQ to return to the originally intended recorded sound 
 

I have a very similar setup - McIntosh C2600 Tube Preamp, McIntosh MC452 amp and Martin Logan Montis speakers.  I am in heaven when I am in my listening room listening to well recorded music.  I hear the same 3 dimensional sound stage that you describe.  I have been in many audiophile stores listening to their $200K setups and I have yet to find a better soundstage than mine (though I am sure many, many others make my sound like introductory system!).

Two very important points on the ML speakers:
1. They are extremely sensitive to tiny changes in setup.  I spent weeks and weeks optimizing the exact location of each speaker.  It's funny - I came home one day after the cleaning lady had been here and I noticed she moved one of the speakers to clean - I have now marked the exact location of each of the 4 spikes on both speakers.
2. These speakers must be moved away from the rear wall.  I have mine at 3' and this makes a huge difference.  The extra distance eliminates that smeared image that you get when the sound comes off the rear of the speaker and then bounces off the rear wall and comes at you slightly delayed behind the main wave coming off the front of the speaker.

I have spent time making acoustic improvements in the room and these changes also provided additional sound stage improvements.

I love your writeup - enjoy!  (For the record, I am 1000% happy and satisfied with my setup and have no idea what I would  do to make it better.)

I read Jim Smith’s “ Get better sound”, watched the DVD’s, played w tape measure ( I know, old school- should have used Lazer- didn’t have one - YET), spent a weekend listening, having kids & wife listen, found the sweet spot & was amazed.
Didn’t put down painters tape, wife vacuumed, repeated the following weekend-(& enjoyed every minute).

Electrostatic speakers can be very special. Original Quad ELS were, and still are, my original ML CLS are, but ML got into difficulty mating a dynamic cone speaker with the panels for better bass - many were what I would call a failure - it is obviously a very difficult task to accomplish well.

I haven't listened to your model but it sounds like you are fortunate and have one of their hybrid models that work well.  Enjoy!

I am so happy for you!  You have a pile of cash invested in quality electronics and it is good you have complete enjoyment with the sound you will enjoy for along time. This is what it's all about, excitement, and enjoyment of music and an experience that one can appreciate.  

Cheers!

Paul

Preslisa64, don’t listen to anyone. Enjoy your system. 

You ever try listening to frequency generators?

I never listened before, to that type of music. But is now in my play list. Go figure that

You have fallen victim to.your system dictating what you listen too...

Sure the sound is good....but.do.you.dig.the song?

11-10-2020 8:20pm  

I’m not your standard guy. If I tweak a particular instrument to what I like, or make a recording that I favor more, then I’m satisfied. It’s really all about me at this point. I’m usually the one listening to it most of the time. I would not necessarily say” I’m messing it up. 

I’m using a miniDSP on as pair of $6000 Speakers (name withheld - a friend lent them to me to break in). I had to boost the Bass from 100Hz on down to 20Hz with a gentle 6dB/octave slope along with a slight bump above 10kHz. Did not touch the 100Hz - 10kHz region so as not to mess up the Speaker’s intended sound character/signature.

Using EQ is a good thing and I used to be a "no Tone controls allowed" type of person. I’ll be 51 in a month and my hearing is barely good to 13kHz. The Speakers should sound the way YOU like it.

@preslisa64, I am not versed in all this equipment and just looked up some of what you have.  Just the speakers, monoblocks and that Mac C53 you will be getting put the total up around $30,000!   Definitely not a starter set!  Lol.  Out of my league, for sure.  

It would be nice if you posted pics of your room and system on your profile for the rest of us to enjoy.  As they say, “Enjoy the music”!

One of the best discussions. Thanks everyone 

The ability for me to make compensations  based on my room being inadequate, or my hearing inadequacies or my desires to bring a particular instrument or vocal to the front or send it to the back gives me all the pleasures in the world and my opinion, make it better on my view

Yeah, would be great. Only it doesn't work that way. EQ has no idea what voice or whatever you imagine, it only knows frequency. So everything that frequency gets hyped up. Or filtered out. Not only what you imagine. All of it.  

EQ is like when you go into a store and hear some speaker or whatever and its all cockeyed hyped out of whack, but in a way that catches your attention and you like it. "Wow I never heard cymbals like that before!" Then six months later you're all, "Man I am so sick and tired of these speakers making everything sound like a hyped up cymbal!" And then if instead of learning from this you repeat the mistake you come on here or go searching around saying stuff like, "what amp/pre-amp/DAC/power cord/fill in the blank can I get to match with these damn hype the cymbals speakers?" And you slap one band aid after another over the problem and everyone here is happy because you're spending money hand over fist and just as miserable and unsatisfied as everyone else but gosh darn it you're on the treadmill and running like mad can't be much further to the end now.... 

Sound familiar? 

Here's the kicker. You said the whole reason for doing this EQ was "if there’s this lady, for instant, singing in the background that sounds so damn good in my opinion, that I wanna hear more of her,  this gives me the opportunity to actually do that".  

Problem being, this EQ can only be connected to your system with interconnects that cost money. Interconnects must of course be very high quality or else you easily lose more with the IC than you can possibly gain with EQ. Happens all the time. Almost guaranteed in fact. Same goes for the power cord. Don't expect to get quality EQ from a freebie rubber power cord. Never in a million years. Now the coup de grace: all this money spent on power cords, interconnects, and EQ is money taken away from things that would genuinely improve sound quality- genuinely, really, truly give you "more of her":  better amp, source, speakers, wire, etc. 

We want exactly the same thing. I want to hear more and more Jennifer Warnes. Only I know there's only one way that can be done: Less is more.

In the best of worlds we could download each song in 24 tracks or whatever and be our own mastering technician. Actually that possibility already exist on the internet for some electronic music. 

@preslisa64 

don't mind the grumpy old men throwing popcorn from the cheap seats

just enjoy yourself - this forum has a bad habit of sucking any good energy out of the room, unfortunately

I get it,
I understand everybody’s input on equalization. But my point is if there’s this lady, for instant, singing in the background that sounds so damn good in my opinion, that I wanna hear more of her,  this gives me the opportunity to actually do that.  The original recording may have been for her to be a low voice in the background during the recording.
 Also my room acoustics, I’m sure it is not the same as a studio,  LOL. Therefore, the actual sound that was creative at the studio, and intended for us to here, probably will not and most likely, will not sound as it was intended in my wooden floor curtain less room

So. The ability for me to make compensations  based on my room being inadequate, or my hearing inadequacies or my desires to bring a particular instrument or vocal to the front or send it to the back gives me all the pleasures in the world and my opinion, make it better on my view

This is reasons why I described the abilities to “equalize”are important in a stereo system for me. 

Do you take ketchup and mustard to a fine dining establishment?  Of course you can, it's your call.

After getting something perfect, you buy a thing that will allow you to alter every frequency.

Those musicians on those records spent a lifetime to be able to create that music, and they have presented it to you as good as they could get it, and now you're going to alter it?

It's your money and your life; like you say.

Good point everybody. Maybe got a little defensive there.
 The deal is I appreciate ALL input and EVERYBODY’s opinion
That’s why I posted here

I probably should be, but I’m not that familiar with Roon.  Need to study up on that. thanks

To not eq is also to eq.

Then you just prefer the eq you get from the room and your system (speakers).

@preslisa64
As a poster already adviced you. Roon comes with a great interface and professional eq possibilities (parametric and convolution filters). Look it up. I started using it this summer and couldn’t do without it now.

@preslisa64 

no need to be defensive... all that matters in this hobby/pursuit is to figure out what makes you happy and implement it

but you posted to invite input, and so you get commentary...  a begets b

I’m not your standard guy. If I tweak a particular instrument to what I like, or make a recording that I favor more, then I’m satisfied. It’s really all about me at this point. I’m usually the one listening  to it most of the time. I would not necessarily say” I’m messing it up.  right

It sounded good until you said "equalizer"; now you can use that to mess it all up and really be satisfied.

The Joke is a hell of a song/recording :-)

(when you got your sound system right).

I'll give you Lisa Simone.

All he's missing is a good vinyl set up. Then you will see what it's really all about. You think it sounds good now...

Yup. There's just more there there with vinyl.

I understand the so call theory that a stand alone DAC would sound better than a DAC built Into a PreAmp or The theory behind “separates”.  The McIntosh C53 has the new generation DAC f. (Plus I’m a fan of the Macs).  Reviews are good. Supposedly, it’s far better than the first generation DAC in the C47. Which I have said I really like.  Using a computer as a analogy, I rather by a new board than buy a whole new computer. Using this analogy because computers change every year. 
I’m more into the equalizer portion of the C53. Endless fun of tweaking the sound. If I get bored with the tweaking, I’ll just turn it off/on. If I find that the new generation DAC in the C53 is WAY less efficient than a, for instance lumen T2. Then, instead of paying the money for upgraded DAC,  I just buy the Lumin T2. But I think I’ll be pleased

Please look at the ML 15A speaker. The design permits the panels to be a minimum of about 3 feet from the wall. Just picture a upside down “P”. Besides my 50
foot room has a open fireplace in the middle. Which makes me sit a maximum distance of 13 feet from the speaker panels. Don’t want to sit behind the fireplace and listen to music. I like to see the system also.  LOL 
But if I decide to sit 50 feet a way. The bass can still be too powerful if not tweaked . But, the sound will fill the entire room with accuracy, no distortion,
with  brut force bass when required

(Just like Martin Logan, Im not affiliated with McIntosh in any way or form)

Awesome, we all like our audio nirvana.  I have not heard ML.  Since you mentioned rap music and you have such a large room.  What SPL do you listen at?
You could get a nice DAC from 500-2000 but you mentioned very good imaging and if you feel it is accurate...enjoy.

Hi Preslisa
So pleased you are so pleased.
It's great (and rare) to be satisfied with a system and not needing to dream of upgrades, audition new kit and forever tweak.
And great choice of speaker!

But PLEASE get those M-Ls away from the wall - it's so easy for you as you have the luxury of plenty of space.  The signal out of the back of a dipole speaker equals that out of the front.  So with ten inches behind the speaker you are hearing an echo signal 20 inches after the front signal.
I run my CLX Anniversaries 5 feet out.  You can afford 6 or more.

Do have a go and report back.

My set up is Lumin T2; Mark Levinson 585.5 (I use the DAC in the amp via USB) and Martin Logan Vantage.  My acid test is to pick out the piccolo at the very end of Beethoven's 9th. I want to literally hear it in its place in a 3-dimenesional wall of sound. Suffice it to say "job done" I totally understand where you are coming from!  Enjoy !!

Congrats on reaching SQ nirvana. It’s wonderful to listen and be amazed. I understand the desire to share your joy.

Preslisa64, thx for the clarification. 
After not finding a song with that title from 2cellos, my search did turn up Mr and Mrs Cello. Very nice!

Yes, pull them out into the room a bit more.

op

welcome to the club

we don’t obsess without good reason! 

there is a payoff, if one knows how to get there...  :)

I had a C47 for a couple of years and just sold it. Nice sound, very nice dual phono preamp too. The dac was average compared to my standalone dac so I never used it.
If you are getting the C53 mainly for the equalizer, go for it, but I would not get it for the upgradeable dac. Most dacs included in integrateds and in preamps are not as good as a standalone dac from the same vendor. Also, I use Roon and the C47 had a weird way they implemented Roon. I also don't like equipment that has replaceable boards, that just means you will be constantly spending $$$ for upgrades. 
For your dac, get a FPGA type dac with a network interface and you won't be on the constant upgrade merry go round. If your dac has a network interface and if you have Roon, you can eliminate your bluesound streamer which IMO is your weak link in your system. Roon will use the dacs network interface as an endpoint and the pc/Mac running Roon can be in a different room 

All he's missing is a good vinyl set up. Then you will see what it's really all about. You think it sounds good now....of course then you need to find the right pressings of course. Not today's crappy repressed lps...

Sorry. It’s  Mr. and Mrs. Cello.  Not two Cellos

Martin Logan Renaissance 15A. ( I am not affiliated with Martin Logan in any way)

These hy-brid speakers handle about 750 watts a channel. Each speaker has Dual 500 watt 12 inch woofers. The bottom sub enclosures is about 30 inches deep. So the actual electrostatic panels are about 36 inches from the wall in total 

I just used the Martin Logan youtube speaker set up video for the 13A and 15A speakers. Which tells you just how much to toe-in and optimum sitting distance based on how far the speakers are apart.

I'm curious about your room dimensions. Also, how far are you from the speakers, etc.

Please Tell me about any tips with setting up your 15a. I have my 13a sounding awesome but I’m always looking for more 

"I like them more like 3 feet minimum, to preferably 6 feet or more from the back wall."
Perhaps they are in a living space, with constraints?

I would have those out somewhere between 4-6ft out as well. A pair of subs would be on the list too!

Since he is enjoying it, mission accomplished. 

Preslisa64:
Thanks for the info about 2 Cellos, pretty amazing stuff, I’d never heard of them!