Uber expensive repair at United Radio

@dasign I feel your pain.

I sent my ML No. 39 CD processor to United Radio for lack of sound output from the analog/RCA outputs.  The digital output via toslink/coax worked fine if I used my own DAC.  I was told the issue was a faulty IC in the No. 39's DAC module.  They replaced the IC and returned the No. 39 to me confirming it was repaired, thoroughly checked by their QC department, and fully functional.  Cost for this repair was $350 + shipping to them.

Imagine my surprise when I hooked it back up in my system and the left channel still had no (well, very little) sound from the analog output.  I contacted them again and they sent me a return shipping label.  I packed it back up and returned it for further diagnosis and repair.  Four weeks later I was told all of the electrolytic capacitors needed to be replaced as some were leaking and causing the left channel issue.  The cost for this repair was $730 and it took another 4 weeks to perform the recap.

What concerns me the most about United Radio's service is the fact that the No. 39 was returned to me the first time after having been "...thoroughly checked by our QC department.  All functions and features are fully functional.", yet as soon as I played a CD, the left channel was very clearly not functioning properly.  They refused to provide any inspection/quality documents that would have confirmed/denied the unit was fully functional when it left.  After agreeing to provide said documentation post-recap, they conveniently ignored all requests to provide any additional information regarding quality assurance.

Another concern is that if the capacitors were leaking and causing the issue, why wasn't this found during the initial diagnostics?  Seems to me it would be pretty evident.  

I have serious concerns about United Radio's ability to accurately diagnose, repair, and test audio equipment.  It's even more concerning that the folks at Harman Luxury Audio Group refer to United Radio as their flagship service center.  What you can expect is nothing close to what I would consider flagship-level service.  All in all it took them 4 months, 2 trips, and $1080 to get my No. 39 working again.  I sold my ML gear after this ordeal.

/end rant

The guy who runs PS Audio said in one of his YouTubes that he generally would not repair audio components older than 10 years since the technology has advanced so much.  
You could have got a pair of Schiit Aegirs (if you’re speakers are not hard to drive) or Vidars (if they are) and been very happy.

The guy who runs PS Audio has an incentive to sell you new hardware. Of course he's going to say dump your old Marantz receiver and upgrade. Speakers still run on an analog signal, not digital. If you're talking about room correction and DAC's, yes great improvements have been made in those fronts, but just tubes are still popular in driving speakers and that technology has been around 100 years.

BTW, that repair rate is the same as the DFW area.

The guy who runs PS Audio said in one of his YouTubes that he generally would not repair audio components older than 10 years since the technology has advanced so much.  
You could have got a pair of Schiit Aegirs (if you’re speakers are not hard to drive) or Vidars (if they are) and been very happy.

Back in 2019 I bought a Mark Levinson amp used. Around a month later I was hearing a channel acting up. I shipped it to United Radio, who I had to call to learn it arrived. They diagnosed it and claimed everything was working as it should. Which I had to call to find that out also. Then asked did I want to donate the amp or have them ship it back. Suspicious huh?

After receiving the Levinson back I still hear the annoyance. Decided to ship to Pyramid Audio in Texas. They diagnosed and said you could obviously see an issue with one channel on the test equipment.

All said and done, Mark Levinsons trip to United Radio in New York, cost $345. I could buy a lot of music for that. We live and we learn

If all things are equal that may be true, but rarely are all things equal....

hourly rates are used in all sorts of businesses for estimation and also for charging on jobs where there is uncertainty in scope (and the customer is willing to accept the open ended risk) -- if there is trust between provider and client then it works well, prevents the provider from 'padding the cost' to cover him/herself, otherwise it may well become a platform for abuse

Agreed completely, jjss49.  I had a complete kitchen rehab done by a remodeler who worked by the hour.  Of course, I had experience and trust with him.  Lower pressure for him, in an unpredictable older house, and I didn't have to pay extra for his "surprise insurance."
And of course, hourly rates can be useful for comparison shopping when the the temporal parameters of a job are pretty well known, as in the case of sokogear's example of grass cutting.
Bottom line: the hourly rate is not the bottom line, but can certainly be information useful information in shopping and assessing value.

+1 jjss49

a tradesman electrician and a highly skilled electronic tech cannot be compared - may as well compare a butcher to a surgeon - yes they both have skills but they live in different worlds, solve entirely different problems, do entirely different work

hourly rates are used in all sorts of businesses for estimation and also for charging on jobs where there is uncertainty in scope (and the customer is willing to accept the open ended risk) -- if there is trust between provider and client then it works well, prevents the provider from 'padding the cost' to cover him/herself, otherwise it may well become a platform for abuse

bottom line, you own expensive/rare hifi stuff, there are times you need to pay up when repairs and/or maintenance are needed - it is just heartbreaking when people with expensive stuff bellyache when it is time to pay the piper  😂😂😂

@jdoris - all anyone needs to look at is what is the cost of the repair and what options you have. If someone has not idea how long it will take to do a repair or won't give me a tight (do not exceed) range, I won't use him. There is a market for everything, and hourly rates are one way places can rip you off by not doing a job as quickly as possible. I find that if you pay by the job, you will get it done as efficiently as possible. For example, if you take your car in to a dealer for an oil change, the lowest guy on the totem pole will take care of it because they charge a fixed number of hours for that job, and he will be the cheapest for them. If you need a tune up or some diagnostic engine work, they will put the most experienced guy on it since he can get it done quickest, even though they will charge the same for it.

Different technicians have different levels of experience and it takes them different amounts of time to do a job. If they are learning and maybe only have done something once or twice, it is going to take them a lot longer.

I'd rather have the more expensive guy do the job quicker for the same price than the guy taking longer, even though his hourly rate is lower.

If a guy cuts your lawn, do you care how much he charges by the hour or how much the job costs? I don't care if he is super efficient or a slow poke as long as he does a nice job. Same exact thing.

Sokogear: I was just observing 140 seems like a high hourly  compared to many skilled trades.

Perhaps you are right that it is a scarcity issue.

But I'm still not clear why the hourly is irrelevant to thinking about whether pricing is fair: is your position that if the op was charged 2 grand for 15 minutes of labor by a skilled tradesperson, that  would be irrelevant  to his thinking about whether to use that provider again?  What about 5k per 15?  What if the competition charged 30 bucks an hour?


Many providers charge by the hour, not the job: how do you compare in such cases, since you don't think about the hourly rate?

@jdoris - to equate high end electronic repair rates with electricians is hysterical.  It’s based on specialization - the rarer the service, the more it costs. No disrespect to electricians, but there are tons of them everywhere.

high end audio repairmen? Obviously a rare breed. As I mentioned before the hourly rate is irrelevant anyway, the question is, how much to do the job?

I've been pretty lucky, and not had to get much gear repaired, so I just wanted to get clear:

Are people taking the position that 14 hours to replace two chips (7 hours each!) and 140 bucks an hour sounds pretty standard for audio repair.

I just had an electrician in for 75 bucks an hour; that's a good rate for around here, but I don't think people are getting 140.

Sound like audio repair must be more like maintenance for nicer watches, which strikes me as extortionate, and a very good reason not to buy such watches.

I have uncommon gear, but the amps, the table are made in the northeast so when in need of repair, I can drive them to the people who actually built them, and the speakers were built in Oklahoma but there’s an authorized repair service in NJ. 

$1,900 strikes me as very excessive. Full stop. 

I had an experience with Soundsmith several years back. They wanted $800 just to do “diagnostics” on my preamp that needed a repair, a fee which was not going to be applied to the repair itself if I went ahead with it, as is customary with many vendors. 

I already knew what the problem was: a soldered wire had come loose during my move from NYC to The Hudson Valley. I gave them that information, with the instructions that I simply wanted the wire resoldered. No matter: I still had to pay the $800 diagnostic fee. 

I went to the hardware store, bought a soldering iron, and did it myself. The unit worked fine afterwards.

Ok guys, I presented my case and thank you for the discussions. I’m out and will not post any additional comments, since there is nothing new to discuss/debate. I have appreciated the majority of your comments. I just need to enjoy the music now!

@rsf507 +1

Thank you for your good words. I’m currently listening some music on my system and enjoying what I am listening to. I guess my grudge will be amortized over the next few years of musical enjoyment without any gear failure.

OP I can't believe people's responses to you, you've stated the facts and yet others just don't get it. I wish you good fortune and many happy years listening to your repaired amp.

@dasign - you have options  - take it or leave it. If the market for their service was significant enough, other places would offer it (authorized or not). What about if you had something that you couldn't get parts for and that couldn't be fabricated? Then you could sell it for parts or toss it. It's the risk you take buying something without warranty. You pay less, you take the risk. 

You made the deal, got what you paid for, be happy. We are not here to be therapists. Get over it and enjoy your amp that works now. Hopefully they gave you some warranty on the repair.

@sokogear

While I basically agree with you, this is only true in a competitive market where you would have multiple products/services purchasing options made available to you.

It's not just United Radio.  Places like George Meyer in LA, Pyramid Audio in Austin charge similar rates to work on complicated solid-state electronics, unfortunately for us (fortunately for them!)

+1 @daveyf 

Dark dark days, but Ford quality is up there with the most of the Japanese companies. Problem American car companies have is the bean counters don't let the designers do their job. Good thing they keep their hands off trucks. Ya look at the most unreliable, Volks, Land Rover, Jag, Volvo, Chrysler now European owned.

Listen, I'm a proud American but we did spawn the Pontiac Aztec and the Ford Pinto.

There ya go for hating on us Yanks. Got to hand it to ya, you have a really distorted view. Ya like a propaganda bot.  We was talking about complaining and that it is a good thing. It leads to change. It why American companies are good at customer service.
It's not the 80's any more. We may be slow to learn at times, but we eventually catch on and build on what came before. Ya may want to look at the J.D. Power short and long term reliability. Everyone can still learn from Toyota, but if ya want a really unreliable car, ya need to buy a European one, or a from European owned company. Unless it costs a fortune, European's can't make anything reliable. Lot's of American vehicles in the top 10. How is them apples for ya?

snratio"Ya I hate to break it to you Clearthink, but American companies tend to lead the world"

This is typical, common, every day American pride, bluster, and ego convinced beyond doubt or  question that the American Way is the Best Way as the rest of the world watches what happens in your streets and that famous "Peoples House" with all those dignified leaders on jan. 6. A Great Country!!


as for @cleeds who has comprehensional trouble, challenges and difficulties we were talking about customer service and not product quality pretty much everyone avoids American automobiles.

snratio

... American companies tend to lead the world in customer service ...

Do you have any documentation of that, or is it just your "feeling" that American companies are such leaders? It sure isn't the domestic auto industry that's leading the way - consider that GM was once the world's largest auto maker. Now they rank at #4.

Ya I hate to break it to you Clearthink, but American companies tend to lead the world in customer service, not European, not Asian, not even Japanese, though I still trust their quality. Darn hard to get them to admit there is something wrong with their stuff though when there is. Yup Americans like to complain. Something of a national past time. Nothing changes unless people complain. Ya sure you can get some great service in restaurants in Europe, but if there is a problem, I would rather be in an Applebee's in Georgia than a fancy restaurant in most of Europe.

It's called a free market. Places charge what they can get, what the market can bear. Places that charge too much will lose business and those that charge too little will get more. They will then adjust and business volumes will adjust. This assumes that they all do an effective job.

Nobody is getting ripped off here. If a buyer and seller of a product or service agree on a price and both have delivered on what they said they are going to do, then it's a fair deal. If it wasn't they both wouldn't agree to it. If the OP couldn't find anyone to fix his amp for what he considered a reasonable price, he wouldn't do it.

@clearthink I forgot that people in Europe lost their right to complain. It's called hate speech now if you complain about poor service or the price.

I'm not going to blame the guy for going to an authorized service center. If you've invested in a luxury brand, then you want the repair done right the first time. I just think that service centers overcharge repairs for luxury brands because they can. If you can find a decent electronics shop that won't screw you or experiment on your hardware then that's the cheaper route, but like car mechanics, not many honest people in that business. Everyone likes to eat, no one wants to work for free so we embellish our work or labor.

I am more with the OP here than the folks who are saying he is out of line. There are so many instances of companies ripping off folks, simply because they can...that it is almost the norm these days...BUT that in no way excuses the behavior, IMHO. 
While some may say that the OP had an option, because he knew the bid price up front, does that excuse the fact that the bid price was derived by United Radio from knowing that the competition was essentially non existent and as such the OP had very few ( many zero) other options IF he wanted his product repaired...
BUT it is also very clear to me that there are folks on this thread that have severely differing opinions as to what is acceptable business practice..and frankly, ethics. Again, IMHO.

If ya are okay with your tech stuck in the 60's, then point to point is fine. Some of use like a bit more modern stuff.

Another reason to like point to point wiring.
Seems excessive price to pay for replacement for two 16 pin chipsets, can't estimate their troubleshooting time.

Didn't know they were the authorized repair center. If they had schematics, they probably even have a basic service manual. That 16 hours just went out tha window. Should have been 1/2 that. Takes minutes with the proper tools to change 16 pin ICs.
That typical everyday American owned an electronics repair business and ran a couple others. He seems to know a lot more about the business than people bustin on him.

That's why car repair places I deal with just tell you how much to do a job. Forget about the hours. It's irrelevant. If they don't know how much it will cost, either get a narrow range or go somewhere else.

Don't complain about the hours and the rate. Would you feel better if he said 7 hours and $240 and hour? The price is the price.

dasign"I would never send my gear elsewhere than the authorized manufacturer's service center"

This guy sounds like a common, typical, every day American who wants 5 star service at McDonald's pricing because he is so special, precious, and entitled so dignified, expert, and privleged.

Considering that Classe went out of business at one point, I think you were fortunate to get it repaired at all.

 I go out of my way to buy US-made gear and prefer point to point design, in part because I want it to last and be repairable. 
Recently bought a used, near-state-of-the-art phono stage for $3k from an Audiogon member.  It had a loud hum; might have been undisclosed damage, or could have been damaged in shipping. Cost $1500 to fix (effectively, an upgade to the power supply transformer.)  50% more was a painful, unanticipated delta!  My point is that it was a point-to-point wiring design that may be repairable for a few hundred years. Classe, not so much.

@vladedelman

United Radio (UR) was the only option provided as a service center from Classé Audio. What other options are you talking about? UR is the sole authorized repair center for Classé Audio in NA...I would never send my gear elsewhere than the authorized manufacturer's service center. They normally would have access to schematics, components and engineering support.

True that I agreed  to the deal and the amp is now working fine. I am only expressing my opinion relative to the actual cost of the repair. FYI, I had my two previous Krell FPB350 MCX monoblock amps recapped at the Krell factory. My total upgrade cost was $1,500 ($750/amp). So this is kind of my repair cost reference point. Call it bad manners if you want, but I do feel the repair cost was out of proportion, compared to my Krell repair experience and don't feel ashamed of calling it out.

Not sure if you read the whole post, when you are indicating that I don't know what I am talking about servicing equipment. I did own a telecommunications equipment repair shop + managed directly/indirectly 2 other electronic repair shops during my career. I am very familiar with all the Capex/Opex costs involved in operating an service repair department.

arcticdeth  I agree about these cars, but not just the expense.  My BMW's and Alfa's were beyond spending a fortune to keep them functioning properly.  They were just too much trouble to bother with.  I had the best audio repairman ever.  He designed his product, made it, repaired it, and always answered the phone.  He even told me how to unplug a power transistor laden heat sink to sent it to him and save shipping costs.  We all miss you, Julius.

snratio

cleeds, ya obviously don’t have much electronics experience or business experience.

Once again: You don’t know what you are talking about. That seems to be the case with many of your posts. But you’re here to argue - not to talk about audio or music - so I realize this is all working out just swell for you. It's odd that you keep doing this only to be banned from the group again and again.

Let's look at this situation without involving emotions.
The business did you a favor by providing you with an option, where there was none (according to you).
You agreed to the deal.
They delivered as promised.
Now you talk bad behind their backs.
That is just bad manners.

Your argument here is further eroded by the simple fact that they are in business and as evidenced by business still in operation, they know what they are doing to stay in business.
You are not in the audio repair business. Any opinions that you have about what things should cost or what they should do, are just that, without any evidence that you know what you are talking about.

It is like saying, "Everyone should do what I wish was true"

OP:

  you did ask the question on price.
and those amazing amps , I can see the price this high. 


 Here is a response from classé from AA.


Thank you for calling in about your M-700 amplifiers. As you noted in your voicemail, there has been significant changes to Classé operations in the past few months, which include moving all service and support from Montreal to Boston, closing the Classé building in Cananda, and just now within the past couple weeks Classé has been acquired by United Radio.

During the transfer from the Montreal repair facility to the Boston facility attempts were made to bring down as many parts as we could for repairs. However there were certain parts we could not collect, mainly for pre Delta 2 series or legacy unit including the M-700. As a result we can only recommend contacting a reputable nearby audio electronics repair shop to ask if they can diagnose and possibly repair the unit.

We realize that this is not a favorable suggestion, but at this time it is the only one I can provide.

I apologize for this inconvenience. Please let me know if you have any questions.

Kind Regards,

Ken Bunker | Technical Support
Bowers & Wilkins - North America"







   Such good components, it’s a shame they have gone this route!

  I feel your pain...
my grail speakers have been bought and discontinued, never to be made again!!  Also, my amp will someday have an issue, not looking forward to this when it happens. 
  No one is getting any younger!




ANYWAY.......you have your fixed amplifiers? How do they sound?
  Any problems as of late? All is well?


   If it were me,...I would keep on them with emails and phone calls, and some hand written letters to them. 
I had a similar experience with my Rotel rb-1090  one of the best amps I’ve owned, I miss her! Only had maybe 200 hrs of enjoyment, when a 8 am power on, resulted in the dreaded pop, then a white flash, followed by a few white lightning bolts circulating around for about 1.5 seconds, , followed by a small ploom of smoke. Then the red light came on, then my breaker popped.

  Keep on them.

 

ridiculous post and ridiculous complaint by op

@daveyf

Not in favor of it at all. It’s just the reality of buying an expensive brand. I’m well off compared to a lot of people my age but if you’re going to buy boutique things, well then the service is going to be that much more expensive. It’s like buying a Lexus and Toyota. Same cars aside from the interior or, but the service is twice the price at a Lexus dealership. The people who have a Lexus can afford to pay more and the dealership and every other luxury brand knows this.

if you want to remain rich, .spend like a poor person for most things, but if you’re an audiophile well that’s your spending vice

@syndication  Your post seems to imply that you are in favor of ripping people off...so long as they can afford it. Interesting perspective.

Rich people can afford to pay more than poor people. If you buy a BMW or Mercedes, expect to get ripped off on the service. That’ll be $800 for an oil change, hand over your credit card.

Classé is the same. Upper tier brand, premium price. Expect to get fleeced for the cost of repair because they know you can afford it because after all, you bought it right?

While I agree $2000 is a gut punch, someone who had to get their Denon 8500 AVR probably is paying 25-30% less because of price sensitivity. If they wanted to pay more for the same performance or worse, they woud’ve bought Arcam or Anthem.

Service shops depend on products breaking, no different than your car dealership wanting a piece of the action. This is why electronics these days are built to fail, not in all cases, but in many.