Keys, The Critical Mass platform is terrible. You can get a MinusK platform that will handle that weight but You won't like the price. The KSI platforms are also great but probably even more expensive. Critical Mass and Townsend make inexpensive, 1/2 baked stuff that no respectable lab would ever put an electron microscope on. A turntable's requirements are just as stringent. If a lab won't put an electron microscope on a certain platform you do not want to put your turntable on it. Cheap solutions are just cheap and frequently worse than no solution.
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Had not heard of Stacore before. Interesting product and there is no reason it should not work. However, I think the MinusK solution is much better. It's negative stiffness springs do not require compressors or tubing and connections that eventually fail. The KSI platforms are excellent but still more complicated than MinusK platforms. An isolation platform will do absolutely nothing for an SME 30/2. It is itself an isolation platform. Other equipment on solid shelves should not require isolation platforms. All the "vibration" they are subject to is airborne and the only way to isolate from that is to put the equipment in another room. The money is much better spent on upgrading the equipment. This is just another example of lay instinct running away with itself. |
Having owned both SRA and Critical Mass platforms nothing beats my Vibraplane. I still loved my critical mass platforms and used them under my Joule Electa Destiny’s were they served me well. I have owned the following tables, SME 30/2, kuzma xl4, TW AC3, micro Seiki rx1500fvg and a Transrotor Rondino. All benefited from the vibraplane now in its 16th year in my system. |
Don't know what issue you are trying to resolve but after many tries with my system the one device that solved all the issues were the Solid-Tech feet of silence. They're fairly economical too at $500 for 4 - at least when I ordered them. Put those babies underneath the feet of your table and be amazed. |
There are a lot of principles in common. Skyscrapers for example use almost the same damping system as is used for speakers. In both cases the idea is a mass damps resonant behavior. Springs don't damp at all but they do isolate allowing vibrations to be damped or dissipated within the component itself. This can result in some resonant behavior that colors the sound. Townshend adds a very specific small amount of damping to greatly reduce this resonant coloring of tone. Same thing happens even within the turntable. Part of the problem is isolation to prevent environmental vibrations from getting into the turntable. Another part is preventing vibrations generated within the turntable itself from getting into the environment, because this sets up ringing which smears and colors sounds even more. A third aspect is to dissipate vibrations generated within the component, essentially converting them into heat energy. All three need to be done, and as if that isn't hard enough they need to be done equally with frequencies across the audio band. Or the sound becomes colored. The crazy part is all these things don't just happen in turntables. They happen in everything. Even in speaker cables, vibration control is a factor. |
That’ll be me when I hear the sound. Ye ol’ monty. Thanks tomic601...... I found this interesting and educational on the subject of isolation: https://www.andrehvac.com/blog/vibration-control-products/difference-vibration-isolation-vibration-d... |
@iconicaudio: Townshend’s U.S.A. distributor is not only not very responsive, he doesn’t seem to know much about the Seismic products, or exhibit any interest in promoting them. After speaking with him a few times, I first looked at buying from one of Townshend’s UK dealers, then discovered that John Hannant was selling directly to U.S.A. customers. Great advice and recommendations from John, not to mention prices. Excellent packing and shipping too. |
+1 to that, I always call John Hannant. https://www.audiogon.com/listings?q=Townshend+Seismic+Podium+Townshend+Audio |
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Please read the review below from Positive Feedback: Attack of the PODs! No,
they are not from Mars! They are from London: Designed, constructed,
and shipped from London, England by the brilliant Max Townshend to
American audiophiles like us, for the best replacement of the air-filled
bladder sinks of old. The PODs isolate your gear like it was suspended
in outer space. They allow both tube and solid-state gear to bloom in
extraordinary ways. At $675 for a set of 4 Seismic Pods, tailored in
weight to your specific piece weighing from 4-500 pounds, you will
achieve resonance control you only dreamed of in the past! You can
adjust the level as well! The Pods are a sonic miracle, and the best
footers I know of in the here-and-now for maximizing the sound of
valuable audio gear. The biggest improvement I heard was with phono, specifically the E.A.R. 324 Solid State Phono Stage. I have tried numerous expensive tweaks under this mainly transformer coupled unit to enhance its sound, with only negative effect. With the Pods, it blooms and breathes like protoplasm itself has been infused into the unit. If you own a 324 and are reading this review, run, do not walk, to your nearest Townshend dealer and buy a set of Type A Seismic Pods!! You will achieve nirvana, and then some. The Seismic Pods come in individual weight capacities of as little as 1-2 pounds per Pod, to as much as 64-140 pounds per Pod, in boxes of 4 Pods. Use 3 or 4 Pods anywhere under your gear... it is not critical at all. You just want the gear level and the Pods depressed about 30-70% of travel. This is easy to achieve. It took me seconds to do under each piece of gear I tried. The Seismic Pods are more neutral than the bladder sinks of old, with less darkness and richness injected into the sound. The Seismic Pods sound like nothing at all! You may need to tweak your cables or tube-roll a bit, but it is worth the adventure. An entire layer of grunge is removed with the Seismic Pods, as easily as opening a cardboard box. The build quality is first-rate, and they look sharp under anything silver or black. Each Pod even has soft ends to prevent scratching of the gear or table. From the Townshend Website:
I agree wholeheartedly with these claims from Townshend, and find that they understate dramatically the clarity the Pods bring to the mids and highs! The Pods are a combination of air- and spring-loaded valves that are most ingenious. They are the better of two worlds of thought and practice, and a break-through indeed in support engineering in my opinion. Summary Townshend Seismic Isolation Pods are now available and are a true masterpiece of isolation technology and tremendous enhancement of sonic neutrality preventing floor born feedback. I think that they are amazing. They are priced right, and perform at many times their cost! Fabulous under solid state and tube gear, they are the best individual support devices I have heard to date. Like all devices of this nature, your results may vary from mine, but I sincerely doubt it! A keeper! My highest BUY recommendation. MSRP $675 for set of 4 Seismic Pods Please note: Different spring types are required depending on the weight of the unit being isolated. Please see the table in the image gallery. You will need to divide the max weight of the unit being isolated by the number of pods you wish to use, to determine the 'Spring Type' required. For example, if your amplifier weighs 8KG and you intend to use four pods, then you will require Spring 'Type A' as each spring type A pod can handle between 2 to 4 KG of weight. Positioned under any piece of equipment, Seismic Isolation Pods will dramatically improve the sound by breaking the acoustic connection between the audio system and structural vibrations in the room. The Importance of Vibration Isolation Vibrations affect the reproduction of sound through hi-fi systems. Although many of these are small and may go largely unnoticed, vibrations have a negative impact on the quality of sound in virtually all hi-fi components. Turntables are highly sensitive to vibration, which raises the noise floor, degrading the sound not to mention stylus jump due to footfall. With silver-disc players, vibration affects the laser mechanism and the crystal oscillators introducing severe sound-degrading jitter. With tube or valve amplifiers vibration rattles the microphonic electrodes, especially the grids. Transistor amplifiers have microphonic components, including capacitors and connecting wires which move relative to one and another generating rogue voltages. All of these mechanisms will degrade the delicate audio signal. Computers, streamers and DACs are highly susceptible to mechanical noise as they all contain vibration sensitive crystal oscillators. Rigidly spike or cone mounted speakers transmit energy into the floor radiating vibration throughout the room and ultimately, through your rack and into your equipment. This seriously degrades performance as described above. Spike and cone mounted speakers cause the whole room structure to vibrate, often resulting in an unrealistic boomy bass whilst masking subtle detail. Further, this unwanted structural vibration can seriously irritate your neighbours. The Seismic Isolation Pod is a Seismic Load Cell™ with a circular foot attached to the lower end cap for stability. The length may be adjusted by turning the top end cap, which allows easy levelling of audio equipment placed on a set of Pods. There is a soft felt protective piece on the top and bottom faces of the end caps to allow for easy positioning and to prevent scratching. The secret is to fully float your whole Hi Fi System independently from the speakers and the floor. Townshend have devised a complete solution that to allow this to be done in an optimum way. Seismic Load Cell™ The key component is the Townshend Seismic Load Cell™. The Seismic Load Cell™ consists of a high quality alloy steel compression spring surrounded by a flexible synthetic rubber jacket with two end plates. Screw threads in each plate facilitate height adjustment and provide attachment points. A movement-sensitive, air-resistance damper rapidly dissipates low frequency oscillation caused by disturbing the suspended equipment. Seismic Load Cells™ are very ‘soft’ and allow free movement in all three dimensions; up/down, left/right and back/forth. This unique solution blocks all deleterious vibration from 3Hz upwards and from all directions. As the frequency increases, the isolation gets progressively greater, ensuring that virtually no vibration can pass from and to the suspended equipment. As each hi-fi component is isolated, the sound progressively improves. The singular Seismic Isolation Pod is available with seven different weight capacities, ranging progressively from 1kg up to 64kg. Depending on the weight of the device they can be used in sets of four, eight or more to isolate any piece of equipment, of any weight from any vibration. The simplest implementation is to utilise the Seismic Pods in sets of four. It is possible to utilise three pods, but this arrangement is difficult to level satisfactorily and the effect of the weight of the cabling may also complicate matters. |
I'm sure glad that Townshend vibration isolation products are OK 'cause I just bought their whole product line for my entire system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cI6KhH-x7w |
Another timely discussion! As I continue my own quest for turntable isolation, I came across this company which makes something akin to what I am looking to do with my turntable, albeit in a much less costly fashion :) http://stacore.pl/en/ Roller blocks and a damped/suspended base. Not in my price range, hence I'm having to assemble varying bits to make it happen. I'm looking into Ingress Roller Blocks and either springs or Isoacoustic pucks to hopefully achieve something close to what these folks make - at a much reduced price. |
Short of an active anti-vibration platform, the most effective at isolating things from external vibration and killing self generated vibration is something like the MinusK platforms. These are used in industry and laboratories. They are also used under turntables, with some very expensive tables actually being built to work with their platforms (e.g., Swedish Audio Technology's turntable). |
As for cheap isolation platforms, the Townsend looks to be OK. It is a plate sitting on 4 damped springs. Because it is sitting on the springs and not hanging from them it will have a tendency to be unstable particularly with a heavy load as there is nothing to keep the springs from moving laterally. A hanging suspension will always bob straight up and down. This type has a tendency to bob all over the place. Just ask anyone who has owned a Linn. |
@chakster ,in no way can you compare studio or commercial equipment with consumer Hi Fi. The environments are totally different. There is no bass under 50 Hz in FM broadcasting. As for mastering, at the point the master is sent to the lath there is no music in the room. If anyone is listening it will be via headphones. These lathes can be far from perfect. I have some records the rumble is intolerable, bad lathe. The lathes are big, very heavy and complicated devices. They are far from perfect. In terms of high quality reproduction in residential situations it is difficult to argue against suspending a turntable. If done correctly the result is a far more stable device with a much lower "noise of all kinds" floor. Any user of a suspended Sota, SME or Basis turntable will wholeheartedly verify this. he AR XA was such a landmark because with a little clever thinking and design it handily out performed all the commercial tables of the day. So much so that others like Thorens and Linn started copying it and idler wheel tables disappeared. Look at the current crop of ultra expensive turntables, the Basis Work of Art, the Air Force One, the Dohmann Helix. All of them are suspended in some fashion. |
Looks like it serious clashes here between people who probably have deferent level of vibration effects depending on their rooms, houses type, floors etc… OP, don’t trust gurus here…. just experiment a lot and make your own decisions regarding isolation of your components… :) audiophiles who lives in multi-storey buildings and single family houses r different spices concerning vibration and acoustic effects. |
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You have no point. Just more blovient drek. You only make excuses when called out for your misinformed imperialistic opinions, period. I did not get anything you posted. Graphite is the color/finishing and the plinth recommended due its DESIGN (not material), in every links I posted about graphite plinth in another thread you can clearly read "slate plinth". Maybe you missed that? I wish others to find a properly designed turntable first to save on additional springs and isolation. A good turntable isolated by designer who made a turntable with integrated plinth using feet and various damping materials. Always the mine is better BS , it’s the one constant you bring. Reality is.....you don’t. You have opinions based on your narrow view of the world according to you while dismissing all others and their choices. I know , I know more than you ever will on many things audio and analog.....only because I learn from others experiences by listening to them ,and trying through experience.... while you disrespect and dismiss them for having differing views and tastes and ignorant of their needs and insulting their choices. Who you are if you post stuff like this? Industry professional have been using turntables for over 40 years without any esoteric solutions. Look at the best broadcast studios. Everybody can watch Chad Kassem and his mastering console at Asoustic Sounds for A/B comparison, do you see any isolation or springs under turntables, except for a massive wood table? Properly designed turntable must be placed direct on the table or rack. Here is an example of my custom made rack (not pained) for Luxman turntable, but I think everyone can make a custom rack for whatever turntable. By the way, my tables are all sitting on one wall rack that runs 8ft along an outside wall at 4ft above the floor for convenience. I don’t have the issues some have by design and set up and table choices. I have mine on heavy metal rack (my own design) placed on wooden floor for decades, no issues at all. All turntable are direct drive from Victor, Denon, Technics, Luxman. Look, I don’t have to destroy my walls, rack can be always placed on the floor. But I know they exist and I know there is many more options and reasons and price points than just your narrow view for others to march too. Name dropping middle of the road models and brands like its the gold standard,..... then call others choices as toys and wastes of money...criticizing what you don’t own or know about in ignorance... it gets old the first time...let alone the thousandth..... now since you like to brand and model drop....I think I’ll switch to the P3 Exclusive tonight and pine my regret for letting my PD 444 go 4 decades ago ..... sleep tight Sheldon...😏 If funny when you think other people choices can hurt me, I am happy for your more expensive Pioneer P3, this is a very good example of properly isolated turntable and don’t tell me you need anything else under this turntable for better isolation, except for a proper rack or, if you wish, a wall mount. If you sold your less expensive Luxman turntable 40 years ago, how old are you ? Enjoy what you have....sincerely...you can’t be enjoying or buying your own BS if you need to beat everything else down, ignorant of even how often you contradict yourself here... Old people are like children sometimes, very sensitive. I will continue to buy my own BS. If a user need a pyramid of materials like butcher blocks, additional springs, spikes, bearings and all that stuff together then turntable design is very bad, let’s face it. My philosophy is very simple: Buy a nice turntable, put it on a hi-fi rack or on a nice table and enjoy the music! And do not try to solve a non existing problem. @has2be |
You have no point. Just more blovient drek. You only make excuses when called out for your misinformed imperialistic opinions, period. I did not get anything you posted. Graphite is the color/finishing and the plinth recommended due its DESIGN (not material), in every links I posted about graphite plinth in another thread you can clearly read "slate plinth". Maybe you missed that? I wish others to find a properly designed turntable first to save on additional springs and isolation. A good turntable isolated by designer who made a turntable with integrated plinth using feet and various damping materials. Always the mine is better BS , it’s the one constant you bring. Reality is.....you don’t. You have opinions based on your narrow view of the world according to you while dismissing all others and their choices. I know , I know more than you ever will on many things audio and analog.....only because I learn from others experiences by listening to them ,and trying through experience.... while you disrespect and dismiss them for having differing views and tastes and ignorant of their needs and insulting their choices. You are just a sn*b if you post stuff like this. Industry professional have been using turntables for over 40 years without any esoteric solutions. Look at the best broadcast studios. Everybody can watch Chad Kassem and his mastering console at Asoustic Sounds for A/B comparison, do you see any isolation or springs under turntables, except for a massive wood table? Properly designed turntable must be placed direct on the table or rack. Here is an example of my custom made rack (not pained) for Luxman turntable, but I think everyone can make a custom rack for whatever turntable, but rack must be heavy, all those butcher blocks are too light, all those springs are unstable and turntable is shaking.
I could explain who you’re very simple in a few words, but I do not insult people on audiogon like you do now.
I have mine on heavy metal rack (my own design) placed on wooden floor for decades, no issues at all. All turntable are direct drive from Victor, Denon, Technics, Luxman. Look, I don’t have to destroy my walls, rack can be always placed on the floor. But I know they exist and I know there is many more options and reasons and price points than just your narrow view for others to march too. Name dropping middle of the road models and brands like its the gold standard,..... then call others choices as toys and wastes of money...criticizing what you don’t own or know about in ignorance... it gets old the first time...let alone the thousandth..... now since you like to brand and model drop....I think I’ll switch to the P3 Exclusive tonight and pine my regret for letting my PD 444 go 4 decades ago ..... sleep tight Sheldon...😏 If funny when you think other people choices can hurt me, I am happy for your more expensive Pioneer P3, this is a very good example of properly isolated turntable and don’t tell me you need anything else under this turntable for better isolation, except for a proper rack or, if you wish, a wall mount. If you sold your less expensive Luxman turntable 40 years ago, how old are you ? Enjoy what you have....sincerely...you can’t be enjoying or buying your own BS if you need to beat everything else down, ignorant of even how often you contradict yourself here... Old people are like children sometimes, very sensitive. I will continue to buy my own BS because the BS people are using here is the worst SB. If a user need a pyramid of materials like butcher blocks, additional springs, spikes, bearings and all that stuff together then turntable design is 100% BS, let’s face it. My philosophy is very simple: Buy a nice turntable, put it on a hi-fi rack or on a nice table and enjoy the music! @has2be |
You have no point. Just more blovient drek. You only make excuses when called out for your misinformed imperialistic opinions, period. I did not get anything you posted. Graphite is the color/finishing and the plinth in another thread was recommended due its DESIGN (not material), in every links I posted about "graphite plinth" in another thread you can clearly read "slate plinth". Maybe you can’t read? Something funny here? I wish others to find a properly designed turntable first to save on additional springs and isolation. A good turntable isolated by designer who made a turntable with integrated plinth using feet and various damping materials. It's a final product. Always the mine is better BS , it’s the one constant you bring. Reality is.....you don’t. You have opinions based on your narrow view of the world according to you while dismissing all others and their choices. I can advice something only from my perspective and from my point of view, with my experience with many turntables. A bit of common sense always nice to add somethimes. I know , I know more than you ever will on many things audio and analog.....only because I learn from others experiences by listening to them ,and trying through experience.... while you disrespect and dismiss them for having differing views and tastes and ignorant of their needs and insulting their choices. You are just a snob if you post stuff like this. Industry professional have been using turntables for over 40 years without any esoteric solutions. Look at the best broadcast studios. Audiohiles like you always trying to hear that nobody can hear, they are trying to make things much more complicated for people who don't need it.
I could explain who you’re very simple in a few words, but I do not insult people on audiogon like you do now.
I have mine on heavy metal rack placed on wooden floor for decades, no issues at all. All turntable are direct drive from Victor, Denon, Technics, Luxman. Look, I don’t have to destroy my walls, rack can be always placed on the floor (very simple, you know). But I know they exist and I know there is many more options and reasons and price points than just your narrow view for others to march too. Name dropping middle of the road models and brands like its the gold standard,..... then call others choices as toys and wastes of money...criticizing what you don’t own or know about in ignorance... it gets old the first time...let alone the thousandth..... now since you like to brand and model drop....I think I’ll switch to the P3 Exclusive tonight and pine my regret for letting my PD 444 go 4 decades ago ..... sleep tight Sheldon...😏 If funny when you think other people choices can hurt me, I am happy for your more expensive Pioneer P3, this is a very good example of properly isolated turntable and don’t tell me you need anything else under this turntable for better isolation, except for a proper rack or, if you wish, a wall mount. If you sold your less expensive Luxman turntable 40 years ago, how old are you ? Enjoy what you have....sincerely...you can’t be enjoying or buying your own BS if you need to beat everything else down, ignorant of even how often you contradict yourself here... Old people are like children sometimes, very sensitive. I will continue to by my own BS because the BS people are using here is the worst SB or too expensive BS. If a user need a pyramid of materials like butcher blocks, additional springs, spikes, bearings and all that stuff together then turntable design is 100% BS, let’s face it. My philosophy is very simple: Buy a nice turntable, put it on a hi-fi rack or on a nice table and enjoy the music! |
Thanks for all the great information about the platform. I am carefully observing all the feedback. I just wanted to add that the structure of the listing room is on a concrete slab with one wall in standard red brick with the ceiling and remaining three walls are old school plaster. Floor is carpeting. |
+1 SRA-Silent Running Audio platform. Recommended to me by Ralph Karsten, my Ohio Class platform under my Woodsong Garrard 301 was transformative. The improvement in SQ was huge. SRA builds these platforms to specifically function for the component. They allow the TT to fully function as designed. As they do with preamps, amps, electron microscopes, MRI units, nuclear submarines, etc. SRA’s upper line are actually named Ohio Class and Virginia Class. And the entry level, also great, VR platform in only $1500. The only issue is that they are so back ordered it takes many months to get one. |
@iconicaudio There are quite a number of good solutions available, most of which have been mentioned above. I did plenty of reading and research and ended up choosing the Symposium Acoustics Segue ISO. I also added their Rollerblock Jr. HDSE. The combination of those products provided excellent results in better defined bass, a slightly better soundstage, and very precise imaging. I would suggest that you read a lot of reviews and educate yourself to make what you believe will be the best decision for you. If you wish to learn more about the Symposium Segue ISO then contact them and speak directly with Peter (owner of the company). He is easy to speak with, a wealth of knowledge on the science of isolation and vibration control (both internal and external), and is very glad to share that knowledge and discuss your specific needs. Easy to find their website and contact information. Good luck to you on your quest. |
Check out this video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rgK0YMsJXM |
I have a Garrard 301 mounted in an Acustand Solid Plinth2, so I don't use a separate platform. Just three IsoAcoustics Orea Indigo feet is all I need. My 'table sits on a heavy mid-century modern buffet. I can strike the buffet with a mallet while an LP is playing with the plinth sitting on the IsoAcoustics feet with nary a skip or a jump. Strike the plinth itself the same way and all hell breaks loose. I used Sorbothane footers before the IsoAcoustics Orea feet and they were about half as effective. |
Turn Table rack by “MapleShade” uses three 4” solid Maple shelves. Turntable sits on top at just the right height for playing vinyl. Vibration is greatly cut down by its design...four solid thick metal rods are secured and screwed in Tightly on the bottom and top of each shelve. Very attractive as well. |
Wow, a lot of interesting mythology here. Iconicaudio, This is a very simple problem from the perspective of a turntable. You need to keep all vibration higher than 3 Hz from getting to the record and cartridge. That requires a mechanical filter tuned to less than 3 Hz which requires knowing the exact weight of your turntable. Check out the MinusK web site and look what it takes to order one. Minusk makes the best isolation platforms in the world today. They started making them only for scientific equipment then they realized they were missing out on a huge market, audiophiles. They are not cheap but this will give you an idea what it takes. If the web site doesn't ask you the exact weight of your turntable and have platforms broken up into 4 or 5 ranges then forget it, like Critical Mass which is nothing more than marketing BS. MinusK will also tell you what frequency the platform is tuned to given the weight of the turntable. There may be other less expensive and viable options on the market like the Townsend platform but I have never played with one. There are many poorly tuned or unstable turntable suspensions out there. |
Hi.Check with Music Direct and/or The Cable Company for Pneuance Audio Pneupod Pneumatic Isolation Device (footers) www.pneuance.com. You can try them with 30 day return. There are adapters for the Innovation Series tables which are not needed for your flat bottomed table. The chief designer at Clearaudio has a set of Pneupods sent for audition for the Innovation and loves them. You may not need an additional platform, though they can work with them. They add the isolation and suspension many modern tables, with a few exceptions, need but are lacking. |
