Looking to take my first venture into the tube world and going with a tube preamp. My budget is up to $2500 and willing to buy used or new however realize with my budget that used is probably a better path. I would like to have a built-in MM phone stage. I am use to having a remote and tone controls, so that would be nice however not a necessity.
For further information my speakers are Revel Performa3 F206 and the current amp(s) is Conrad Johnson SA-250 and I also have a Rotel RB1552. I many be looking for an amp upgrade in the future, but one thing at a time.
So far I have been looking at used Audio Research and Conrad Johnson preamps but very open to opinions on brand and model. Thanks and I look forward to your opinions and experiences.
Many good candidates posted on this thread for your consideration. Let me comment that this is not the first time this question has been posted on this forum.
I suggest you take a look at the very top of the ’amps-preamps’ forum and look for the tab titled "popular all time". There you’ll find the "Preamp deal of the century" 26-million plus view thread, spanning two decades, discussing the Supratek preamps from Australia. They are superb. All handmade. Point to point wiring. Lifetime guarantee. I think he has a model in your price range, though it does not have an internal phono stage and the remote is volume-control only.
This is peripherally related to the OP, but in follow up to my post above, I just switched out the Raven Blackhawk Mk3.1 and replaced it with one of the years biggest hifi bargains IMO the Boyuurange A50 Mk3 300B SET integrated amp. Now I got done playing the Raven Blackhawk today through a Steely Dan list and played it, for me, relatively loud. The Raven is super articulate and has plenty of power. I love that amp. Now granted it is nighttime and I am playing the Boyuurange A50 at lower SPLs, but even at low levels this baby can image! I think, yes, possibly better than the Raven. Yes I said it. Now I will confirm tomorrow when I play the A50 at similarly loud levels with the Steely Dan playlist and some others. But tonight I felt the Donald Fagan was on his Fender Rhodes right in front of me in the room. Bill Evan’s trio? Same thing. The holographic soundstage and imaging this A50 produces is amazing and addictive. Is it the A50 or is this typical of all 300B SET amps? But at $883.20 with the current 5% off coupon on Amazon, no other 300B can beat this. Take another 5% off if you have a Prime credit card and it just keeps getting better. Just amazing, and amazing for the dollar. I think this is a really instructive pair of amps. The SET 300B A50 and the push pull Raven Blackhawk Mk3. More to come when I crank the A50 tomorrow. But meanwhile, if you have a little less than $900 plus sales tax burning a hole in your pocket, I can’t think of a better way to use this cash than on this Boyuurange A50 Mk3 300B SET Integrated from Amazon. Which leads me to another recent bargain of 2021, the Sony SSCS5 bookshelf speakers. These are currently $148 on Amazon. But recently I picked up a pair for only $73! If these go back to $73 and you pair them to the A50, that is a little killer system for no money. Just fill in with a digital front end and some cables and that is a nice system with some main pieces that are bargains for the SQ and the money.
I concur with the recommendations on EAR. Just picked up an 868PL. Wanted to see if the hype was real. As a previous poster stated I put some Siemens/Holland NOS tubes in (it actually had 6DJ8 types there from factory). Biggest pleasant surprise of my life. For me the hype is confirmed real. Dan Meinwald has been very patient with my questions so I can also state great customer support. I also researched Troels Graveson pages on these EAR preamps. Give this preamp my highest recommendation. You will get lots of opinions, overwhelming. Suggest give this a listen, you may discover a real gem.
@rbmaudio1 Counterpoint gear is not nearly as hard to service as urban myth has it and there is no need to "rebuild" with new boards all the time. I have 2 of each of the popular models (SA100, SA20, NPS200, and NPS400) and I service them myself. All the old SA'sI have I purchase them in junk condition and replace the mosfets and they sing. While every otherexpert will say they need a rebuild or trash them, it is possible to use new production Vishay TO247 Hexfets in them and those output devices are very cheap unlike the mythical Exicons. The preamps are real easy to deal with even the SA5000 (not the SA11 though).
HI Don Sachs here. I really don't care which preamp you buy, but for people to say my preamp is the sp14 is not correct. The board is the same. The board has been improved immensely because I have suggested improvements to Roy. But, I run the circuit at a different operating point, I have made improvements to the power and filament supplies that are sonically significant, I use FAR better parts than the kits, I have made numerous mods that are not published. Plus you get a nice case. Buy whatever you want, but for some person to say you are "giving" me a $1000 when you could just build the kit is totally inaccurate nonsense posted by someone who knows nothing about it. Check out the prices for a pair of VCap ODAM caps or a 64 step remote Khozmo attenuator with relay input switching and add that to your kit price. Gee that raised it by $500 didn't it? The price of custom panels and a solid cherry or walnut case. I have spent years improving what is a very good circuit. I have spent years restoring vintage tube gear and building my own. Thousands of pieces of gear. I have heard tons of different caps, resistors, types of wire, etc.... I make choices based upon my experience and testing. I build the best sounding piece of gear I can and then I price it based upon what it costs to build. So yes, buy a kit from Roy and you will have a great preamp that will slay most $3000+ commercial gear. But it won't sound like mine.....
Wanted to find @b-limo’s comment about the Blackhawk LE’s power on his 88dB 4 ohm Salk loudspeakers. He did like the Raven's sound quality. He found the fixed subwoofer outputs unhelpful in his system:
05-31-2021 12:36pmHaven’t really followed the thread for a few days... looks like it took a turn,
Anyways, still enjoying the Raven. I do wish it had more power but thats available, just costs more money. The sound quality is fantastic and Im having a ball with rolling tubes and learning what sounds like what. I bought this amp used and it came with a bunch of tubes. All of them are decent if not good. Anyways, I am really satisfied with the sound quality. It really is just awesome. @Millercarbon, if the sub out isn’t variable, there is no way to adjust it seperate from the Ravens volume control unless another preamp is used before the raven...
are you trying to tell me that the integrated raven amp needs an additional pre amp in order to be able to adjust the volume of the speakers and sub together?
not having a variable outlut for a subwoofer is pointless and I’ve never come across or heard of such a thing. Are you telling me that I have to adjust the volume of the sub sverytime time I adjust the volume on the Raven? Thats stupid. You still don’t get it...
@tvad @millercarbon I need to jump in and provide an alternative viewpoint. I own a Raven Blackhawk 3.1. It is a terrific integrated amp. Not only is it driving my 88dB 4Ohm Magico A3 towers super well. But I also have high level sub cables attached to the Raven binding posts tapping off signal to a pair of REL T/9is. There are plenty of dynamics, detail, imaging, soundstage. Everything we want. This amp has so far made my PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP with EL34s sit lonely and disconnected in a corner. My solid state amps are wondering what happened to me. My Pass Labs XP-20 is wondering if she is going to see her photo on Audiogon. There is NOT insufficient power in this amp, unless their listening room is Madison Square Garden! That is absurd. If I turned this thing up to 12 o’clock I would blow my head off!! I think @b_limo needs to check something else in their house and or system. Maybe get the wax out of their ears. But also check the tubes. But this Raven has plenty of power. Last thing I will say is I am glad I got the Blackhawk and not the Osprey. The Osprey would have been overkill to the extreme and a waste of money. My Raven Blackhawk isn’t going anywhere. My PrimaLuna? Well we shall see…
In this price range, or even of you plan to spend two or three times as much money, I recommend Roy Mattram’s Vacuum Tube Audio SP14, which circuit, I believe, forms the basis of the Don Sachs units, referenced, above.
Sound advice from @millercarbon! $2500 is the range of many fine
integrated’s. Solve your amp problems. Buy an integrated. I bought a
Willsenton KT88 for $1280 delivered. I spent $600 on tube upgrades. It
drives my Martin Logan Spires just perfectly. What does $2500 buy today
besides a used BAT. That wouldn’t be bad but I wouldn’t invest that kind
of money into a 20 year old preamp. Buy new and save some money. Buy a
tube integrated! It’s all the power your speakers need, imo.
Exactly. Especially since at this price point the OP can easily get the superb Raven Nighthawk https://www.ravenaudio.com/product/nighthawk-mk3-tube-amplifier/ Yes, it is a couple hundred bucks over budget. So sell your amps. The Raven is better anyway. The Nighthawks 20 tube watts is equivalent to your CJ 125 SS pretend watts. Don't take my word for it, do a search, read the people with 88dB speakers with a Raven who now like me laugh at the idea all watts are the same.
They are not. Not even. DYODD. You will also be able to sell whatever interconnect and power cord no longer needed. All because you were wise enough to switch to integrated.
Aric Audio offers a NEW tube preamplifier in your price range with both gain control AND volume control. In addition to that he offers Tube Amplifiers with gain control! Nice guy too. All hand made, really fine sounding, in the USA.
Along with my recommendation of the Erhard Audio Aretha tone control pre-amp w/phono (had for ~year or so now) wonderful sounding, super clean & clear, made in USA, affordable with strikingly good old school looks. I'd recommend that you consider the system matching before purchasing. These boutique products sound good and can be great with used within the same line. Oh...and mine has a loudness switch that I'll take all the way to the bank!
I am a big Audio Research fan so am a +1 for AR. Find where in the line you can afford today and upgrade later if you love their sound. You should be able to get an LS17SE line stage for about $2000. You won't be able to stay within budget with an AR phono so maybe start with another brand. The LS17SE is a well regarded line stage that would be able to support many other high end components as you build the system. Another option would be to get one of their solid state line stages, such as the LS3B with remote. They are not that common but I started my AR journey about 4 years ago with one for $850 and sold it last year for $800. This would allow you to also get an AR phono such as the PH5, which should go for around $1300. I used them with my AR Classic 120 mono blocks and they worked very well together. Have fun trying out components!
Conrad Classic 2 SE. This preamplifier has upgraded
Teflon Caps and Vishay Resistors along with a precision Alps Volume control. Unfortunately it does not offer a remote or a phono section. If you are moving towards separates then the lack of a phone stage should not bother you however the lack of a volume remote might. This unit sounds incredible and falls within your budget. I lived with this for a long time before upgrading and did not mind the lack of remote, but not everyone would accept this.
Sound advice from @millercarbon! $2500 is the range of many fine integrated’s. Solve your amp problems. Buy an integrated. I bought a Willsenton KT88 for $1280 delivered. I spent $600 on tube upgrades. It drives my Martin Logan Spires just perfectly. What does $2500 buy today besides a used BAT. That wouldn’t be bad but I wouldn’t invest that kind of money into a 20 year old preamp. Buy new and save some money. Buy a tube integrated! It’s all the power your speakers need, imo.
You will find that the selection of preamps with tonal controls and a built-in phono section to be very limited. If you could consider a line stage with an outboard phono preamp you will find a much larger selection to choose from. If you choose to go that way you can find a good solid used tube line stage and a decent used phono preamp that will equal or exceed most built-in phono preamps well within your budget. Just remember this when buying used tube equipment, many people who own tube equipment are tube rollers, usually when they sell there equipment they swap out there expensive and matched tubes for lesser quality and unmatched tubes thus reducing the sound quality of the equipment by sometimes a large margin. So be prepared to include in your budget the price of new tubes, which for preamps or line stages is not much but amps on the other hand is a different story.
Another plug for the RP-1. Get it new with warranty and then use the extra $$ to find a nice set of vintage tubes you like. As others have said the phono stage is worthy. I auditioned the Moon 110LP against the RP-1 internal and the Moon was not worth the spend. And that was with a Rega P6/Ania. I email Moon and they responsively help me dial in the LP for the Ania. I also called up Rogue and they helped me dial in the RP-1 for the Ania. So purdy confident I was not wildly misconfigurated.
The Don Sachs line stage preamp ($2500) is just the VTA SP-14 dressed up in a pretty case. The SP-14 can be bought as a kjt ($1200) or fully assembled and tested ($1800). The top line PH-16 phono preamp kit ($700) can also be had fully assembled and tested ($1000).
count down to reply from don ... four ... three... two... 😂😂😂
There is a super nice (used) Air Tight ATC-1 for sale on line. It has a MM phono stage. It is just fantastically built and sounds wonderful. I should know, I used to own it. I think they want 3500.00
Wow, a walk back through memory lane as I haven’t bought a preamp in probably 15 years. I bought my first tube one, an arc sp8 that I still have in the box, back in the 1980’s… I’ve also owned their sp9, 10, and 11, and still have counterpoint, manley and cj ones, and through the years have had an opportunity to listen to a great number of the recommendations you received. As you probably know, after cd’s (perfect sound forever) became the norm, many manufacturer’s dropped phono stages from their pre units, and started manufacturing line only pre amps, a trend which continues through today. Your wanting an inboard mm stage therefore in some ways limits your search, but in some ways benefits it, as by comparison, good mc stages were more difficult and expensive to produce. I could ramble on for a while, but note that you’ve received some great suggestions already. Having been down that search some decades ago, I’d heartily second the wonderful manley ultimate, an arc 3/8/9/11, or a mm stage cat. Counterpoints as well, but now they are tough to find, and tougher to service. Arguably more musical, perhaps at the expense of some audio parameters by comparison to more modern products from the same companies, these oldies were truly goodies.
Buying used is a great way to go, and most of the major players will continue to service their products many years after their manufacture date.
good luck!
ps. While there are great systems out there with tube pre/solid amp combos, a couple of relatively inexpensive tube pieces together can bring a smile to one’s face the same way an inexpensive turntable can. Don’t hesitate to wander down that path for a bit. rbm
I am in absolute love with my Audio Hungary Qualiton APR 204. Has everything you want , brand new, on budget. I was in an Audio Research LS-26 when this gem came along . My favorite preamp ever, and I’ve had many, by all the respected brands .
The Don Sachs line stage preamp ($2500) is just the VTA SP-14 dressed up in a pretty case. The SP-14 can be bought as a kjt ($1200) or fully assembled and tested ($1800). The top line PH-16 phono preamp kit ($700) can also be had fully assembled and tested ($1000).
The VTA products are very plain Jane and have a bit of a home brew look to them, which is why Don Sachs can charge you $1000 or so more for the good looks. But what do you want to spend your money on?
On the other hand, a recommendation I'd also throw at you would be to find a fully restored... are you ready... Fisher 400 CX-2 (The President) preamp. Easily the equal of a Mac C22 or Marantz 7, and they're gorgeous. Typically around $3000.
in that price range and with the ultimate goal of switching out your power amps I would agree with several above get an integrated. I have a Vincent integrated in my bedroom system and the tube pre with SS power really has a nice sound. I know they are currently switching out models, offering deals on their midtier right at your budget point. or better yet wait for a sale and stretch the budget a little for a Cary 100 or talk to Klaus at Odessey in Indy and get something more bespoke.
I’ve been using an Audible Illusions M3a with the regular phono stage and the CJ Sonographe SA 250 amp the OP mentions he has for a couple of years now and very happy with the performance. With Kef R3’s. I also have a Motif C9 linestage pre either with a Primare or McCormack phono stage that I play with from time to time using the Sonographe. All combos have been satisfying to me. The downside to the Audible Illusions is it’s quirks. Dual volumes, high gain, maybe issues with repair from factory etc…. but it sounds wonderful to me. There’s lots of tube pre choices out there, but I’d suggest any CJ pre would be a nice match with the Sonographe. I’ve had the Sonographe now for probably 25 years and it’s been completely reliable.
VTL Ultimate, separate volume controls, well with-in your budget, beautiful little tube pre-amp with an outstanding phono stage. You will not be disappointed.
I strongly second Aric Audio! I have had, Mac, Pass Labs, Don Sachs, and ARC, to name but a few. I have the original Motherlode, but his mid level gear is what drew me into his line initially. Give him a call...he is great to work with and a credit to the audiophile community.
Herron Audio VTSP-3A-R03. It does not have a phono. Check for it at US Audio Mart. Audible Illusions M3B would be nice too. It has MM phono, but does not have a remote.
OP, when I was shopping for a pre the brands you listed were high on my list. I went with a Mcintosh C2500 and I had to save longer but it has been worth it. The 2500 reacts nicely to tube rolling, has two phono sections, MM & MC and of course it's a Mac. As previously posted here, look for Mcintosh C2300 it's older and therefore a bit cheaper.
Check out a Black Ice Fusion F360, although you'd need to add a phono preamp to hit your target. Plenty of those to choose from. This has some innovative tone/eq circuits built in.
You might want to consider a new Rogue RP1 or maybe you can find a used RP5. Also might be able to find a used Modwright. In my opinion both companies are US based, offer great value and great customer support. They are also stand alone companies offering newer design, components and resale. Both great businesses to work with if needed.
I recently purchased an SRC SP6B from a reputable used dealer for less than $1000.00
It is fantastic in my system. I used to sell ARC products, and they are the one brand I would always look to for a pre-amp.
However, WATCH the years and models. Some are much better than others. Your budget will probably not allow to get the latest ones, but by just a quick check on ebay, there are at least 6 available in your budget.
Check the reviews and write-ups first, and check other used sources. You will be happy you did!
You might want to consider a new Rogue RP1 or maybe you can find a used RP5. Also might be able to find a used Modwright. In my opinion both companies are US based, offer great value and great customer support. They are also stand alone companies offering newer design, components and resale. Both great businesses to work with if needed.
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