Whats the best way to get a true taste of different tubes? Should I change all preamp and power tubes with the same manufacturer? For instance, I think the best way to truly understand a certain cable companies flavor is to have an entire spool of the same cables, ie all Analysis Plus Solo Crystal Oval 8’s...
I feel like cables, tubes, even equipment each has its own flavor or house sound. So, now that Im going to swap some power tubes should I get a matching set of pre amp tubes too? I feel like if I have 3 or 4 complete sets, i can get a feel for each and THEN start mixing and matching accordingly,
Anyways, this tube stuff is fun and it sounds so dang good to these ears that I wont go back if I can help it.
Usually the best way is to start with the tubes the designer used to voice the device.,Unfortunately that isn‘t always practicable. In my experience the best way to start is by making sure what you got is performing at its best: 1. use Graphene Contact Enhancer from the Mad Scientist (madscientistaudio.com) on all pins. 2. use Duende Criatura or EAT tube dampers on all tubes. Not from personal experience but often acclaimed: Herbie‘s tube dampers seem to do a good job as well. 3. start by upgrading the small signal and rectifier tubes with the best NOS tubes you can find. 4. If NOS can‘t be found: in general (but not always): Japanese or German or Dutch tubes are better than Russian tubes which in turn are better than Chinese copies. 5. On output tubes there tend to be pretty decent reviews available on the internet. Most of all: have fun and enjoy the music!
In my 3 integrated amps and my tube preamp I don’t use tubes from the same manufacturer throughout , use only NOS signal tubes, and where possible prefer to use NOS versus new production power and rectifier tubes.
Below is the link to Brent Jessee’ website that you might find helpful as he provides his insights on various tube brands and the tube equivalents within different tube types. It also lists tubes that he has available which may or may not be of interest to you .
Likewise, if you enter a particular tube in the AG Forum search function you’ll find user posts. And , below is the link to the Tube-O-Phile Circle on audiocircle which may be of some help.
The small signal tubes have the most effect on "flavoring" the sound.The power tubes have a subtler effect and are more about sharper or softer dynamics/leading edge.I haven't tried a lot of NOS power tubes though,I'm a bit uneasy about their reliability. My personal preference is to use new production power tubes and try many different small signal tubes.
NOS power tubes are very expensive, so those are not an option for most people. You would always want to use the same brand of power tubes in all positions, but, depending on brand of gear, you sometimes can substitute a tube or two of another brand in an emergency.
Small signal or preamp tubes can have different functions and different amounts of effect on the sound in different positions in preamps and amps. So you may be wasting the sound of your favorite brand of NOS tube in certain positions in your gear. Less expensive and more readily available tubes may work just as well in those positions.
If you use new production tubes they are generally cheap enough that you can use your favorite in all positions or buy different brands to experiment with without spending too much money.
If you go the NOS route, you will still want to experiment, but you’ll want advice from someone familiar with your specific preamp or amp, as experimenting with NOS tubes can get expensive fast.
If you're asking if preamp and power tubes need to be brand match I would say no. Preamp and other small signal tubes can be a great way to experiment with NOS but as Tom says above NOS power tubes can be prohibitively expensive. What tubed gear are you running I just see a Belles Aria listed in your system?
The whole idea behind like cables is kinda funny. I build my own. RCAs vs XLRs vs Speaker cable vs CAT (?) vs PCs. ALL are from different manufactures because they do different things.. I suppose I could use all the same color armor. :-)
Same way with Valves Sets? VERY few manufactures of valves make a lot of different valves anymore.. To expensive to do it..
BUT there are a LOT more valve manufactures popping up in Eastern Europe and mainland China..
US, Brit, Canada and French valves can do it again.. Maybe before I kick.
Mac valve sets use to have RCAs Tellies and or GEs to make up SETs.
MC275 use to be GL KT88s Tellies RCAs or Sylvania for signal valves..
Again SETS?.. match, Game, SET.
I add cables one at a time.. not in pairs, EVER.. First left then right about a week later... Always pays BIG dividends in A/B for me.. Good to test your own hearing ay? I turn around and listen too.. It's lead to an ear cleaning once or twice.... Ya never know..
For one buy NOS vintages tubes night and day better built then tubes from China and Russia,small tubes ,NOS tubes can get pricy. go to Brent Jesse recordings , he has a rough breakdown of their sonics. If you need help on sonics of a specific size shoot Me an email I have been voicing tubes for 45+ years . But reading up on them and each brand has its own flavor as well as older the better ,anything from 40s- early 70s was built to a much higher standard , there are a few tubes today made to very high standards but rare ,from Europe, Japan , even U.S made Western Electric depending on tube type and can be $$ pricy.
Make sure you go for nos tubes from someone like andy's tubes he has a wide selection of different brands to try and he can help you with the selection process but you want to change the driver tubes first because they will have the most effect on the sound then go for the power tubes but they will all make a difference over new tubes and they will last up to ten times longer than new tubes.
Didn't you just get a Raven? Tube rolling is such a crapshoot I heartily recommend against it. There's easily a dozen better things you could be doing instead. UNLESS that is you happen to own a Raven. In that case then you call Dave Thompson. I have rolled tubes before and would never again waste my time- until I get my Raven and even before it comes will be consulting with Dave on that. Totally the way to go.
I also have Raven Nighthawk and agree 100% with Miller carbon, speak to Dave Thompson...I did and he knows tubes and how they affect his gear. He is extremely knowledgeable and cares about his customers having the best experience with his gear...good luck!
OMG... Don't do any tweaks at this time. There is no need to have the same brand tubes in your amp and preamp. It is best to look and see what others have tried. NOS tubes are a good option, but my concern is once you find the sound you like can you get the same tubes later? Call the folks at tubedepot and vivatubes or other reputable dealers to get some options. Personally, I like Telefunken, Mullard. But every system is diffrent. As far as cables i would suggest Cardas because of the quality of copper and structure. Avoid gimmick brands that have quantum tunneling, magnets, etc.
I have a tube preamp and tube mono blocks. Here is my experience.
First, I looked up the stock tubes that came with my gear. All JJ tubes. Not expensive. Decent. I consulted some folks on Audiogon and they suggested the preamp could be bettered, first. I contacted Brent Jessee and told him what kind of sound I was looking for. He suggested a very good signal tube. I went from tubes that were about $12.50 each to tubes that were $50 each, both NOS. They sounded a lot better. I listened with those for a while, getting used to their sound. (I do not have the ability to do "left-right" so I just changed them. They burned in a bit and sounded mellower and better after about 40 hours.)
After I had gotten used to the NOS tubes in the preamp, I asked Brent again about the mono blocks. He set me up with new input and driver tubes, all NOS. About $300 or so for 4 tubes. I put them in and lived with them for a while. They improved the sound quite a bit.
Finally, at a certain point, I was still hearing some harshness I wanted to try to tame. I swapped out the KT88 tubes for KT77 tubes and heard quite a nice change. Now I go back and forth on those output tubes and enjoy the variety.
I don't know what Raven puts in there, so consulting with the maker is good advice. Most manufacturers want to put in decent tubes that are available in good supply for customers. They don't want to break the bank on tubes in their stock units because they add to the bottom line for the customer and make their amp prices less competitive for no solid reason.
In contrast to the advice above, I cannot do left/right comparing because I have no balance knob. I don't find tube rolling to be a waste of time; it's a simple change that yields interesting differences. I don't find NOS tubes to be extraordinarily expensive. Yes, there are some outrageously priced tubes, but that is not all there is out there. I have found NOS tubes, if tested by a reliable seller, to be reliable. In addition to Brent Jessee, I have had very good service from Jim McShane.
@oldhvymec I recently had my ears tested and one ear is better than the other. Are both your ears equally good? If not, do you know how to compensate for that when you do your left/right testing? Regards,
Few years back i would stand that NOS tubes or tube rolling could bring nirvana. After spending so much money and time i came to the point that it is not that big deal after all. Still though some of them do worth to try but proceed with caution.There are better ways to spend in your system. Good thing i made a profit selling all those nos tubes and learned so much about them.
@jerryg123 We're all "boobs"? Is that really what you want to say about everyone here? Why choose to put things so derisively? What do you think that says about you, Sir?
IMO I don't think matching brands through the system matter. I do think it it very important to match right and left in each stage of the process. This is not only matching brand but having each tube tested so they are within specs of each other. Most sellers will sell as matched pairs and show test results. I run two different brands in my preamp. NOS bad boys on the gain stage really opened the sound stage and compliment the factory tubes in output stage. Enjoy the journey and love the music.
@hilde45 says nothing about me I know I am a boob. Sorry if your delicate sensibilities were harmed but there is some real bad advice given here.Your recommendation was an acceptation. So I will validate your post with +1 @hilde45 really could care less what lonely old men think.
Start by numbering or otherwise identifying each tube and 'roll' a pair at a time. For a small power amp w 2 different input and 2 power valves per channel there are 96 permutation. [2 x 2 x 24] With 2 same input tubes and 2 power tubes per channel, there are 576 permutations. [24 x 24]
Add in power line, humidity, temperature and CBLF vagaries...
IMO, rolling is an utter waste of time. One combination may favor one particular program to the detriment of another.
@jerryg123 The recipe for becoming a "lonely old man" it to be mean and impolite as a younger one. There's a difference between disagreeing with someone or pointing out their mistakes and demeaning them or calling them names. Yes, I have "sensibilities." They are ones that my parents raised me with -- be kind, be polite, listen carefully, and keep an open mind. It's not rocket science, but some still find it very hard to do. Look inward. Figure out why you're so mean. Heal yourself. Otherwise, have fun now, because a lonely life lies ahead for you. We're done.
You're having a blast with your new tube integrated amp purchase, congratulations! Looks like you got some good advice and learnings from people on this thread too.
I don't have tubes at the moment, but am considering it, so thanks for bringing up the conversation about where to start, tube brands, sources, etc. And thanks to everyone else that took the time to provide helpful information and/or share their experiences.
hilde45, thank you for your comments, I personally found them very useful. Seems that almost every thread is spoiled by someone these days, too bad. I tried to defend someone yesterday, but ended up being dragged through the mud for it. Oh well, doesn't bother me that some people are that unhappy in life and (try) to take it out on others.
thanks for your heatfelt comment: our’s is a beautiful hobby and ignoring spoilsports isn‘t always easy. All the more credit to you for trying to put them in their place.
Hello, I think you should do other things first unless you have to change your tubes. There is another thread on Townshend isolation gear. If you have not done this yet or bought a Puritan PSM156 then do thee things first. It doesn’t matter what the tubes sound like if your system is not as good as it can be. After you do the major things like that then have some fun rolling tubes. Unwanted noise and controlling the bass is the most important thing to work on.
Start with preamp tubes if a separate preamp is used.
Then small signal input / driver tubes in the amp.
NOS tubes if possible for these, or try PSVANE "art series" where applicable [better than 50% of my better NOS tube collection]. Allows one to hoard the NOS stuff a bit too.
Buy tubes from a reputable seller with a guarantee, it will pay off and many times end up with better tubes.
And, yes, some tubes and interconnects can compliment -or- detract from each other.
You kinda need to know what type of sound you are going for to get "there" or its hit-and-miss and trial-and-error til you do.
Sometimes it’s helpful to lean on the amp designer to share what works, if you trust them and they have proven experience on what sounds good and what does not. Good amp/circuit designers know enough to help guide you some.
I too have to agree with Millercarbon. How tubes interact with your specific amp/preamp, speakers and room acoustics can be in my case a expensive crap shoot without some guidance/knowledge. My first tube amp. I've been dealing with Dave Thompson for the past 2 months on Power/Preamp tube combinations that would work best with my Knighthawk and Klipsch Heresy IV's. Even sent him pictures and dimensions of my room. Dave spent another hour on the phone with me just the other night answering my uneducated questions. Very nice professor for my new Hobby. I can't comment on other tube amp manufacturers, no experience, but what I will say is that Dave Thompson, owner of Raven says you become part of the Raven family when you purchase. I feel that with Dave! His knowledge is Priceless.
b_limo you and rcbike should talk:-)And yes, isolation under tubed components is very effective, but I don't want to change the subject. Looking forward to reading about your experiences.
Tube rolling can be fun and it can be expensive. My experience started with necessity. I had noticeable tube rush in my aesthetix phono stage & preamp so my immediate goal was to go ultra low noise, I consulted Brent Jessee and he gave so great starting points. I also suggest to determine what sound improvement you want- detail, airy, lush, mellow, more bass etc - and then move toward that sound. In addition to low noise, I wanted more mid and upper detail. I found the right combination using NOS Amperex BB & Tele 12ax7’s and Siemens 7308 (6922). For me, after solving the tube rush, the best all around sound was from Tele. Mullard was too soft or lush for my taste. The 7308s really enhanced detail in my preamp.
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