If you search for tonearm recommendations you'll find an overwhelming amount of praise for $1k and less products. Audiomods and Jelco are the two most mentioned.
The Audiomods is just some guy making Rega-based tonearms in a workshop. Just some guy is putting out tonearms that compete with tonearms that cost many times the price -- from the likes of SME, Clearaudio, VPI, Graham, etc.
So the question is -- are tonearms just a scam? How is it that everyone loves Audiomods and Jelco to death and never talks about / dismisses high end tonearms? Is it because there's no real difference between one of these low-cost tonearms and the high end ones? Is an Audiomods Series V ** really ** the equivalent of a SME V? Some guy in a workshop equals the famed precision of SME? Is that once you have the math and materials worked out all tonearms are essentially the same? Or is it that most owners of record players online are dumpster-diving for vintage gear and simply can't afford to listen to better?
My experience is that a Basis Vector 3 substantially outperformed a Rega 600 tonearm. I have owned a MMT in the past, and it was about on par with a Rega. Maybe one of the greatest improvements I made to my system. Everything was better especially the imaging and image stability/specificity.
I would not hesitate to upgrade my tonearm if I were you. Basis makes a great 9 inch tonearm. If you can find one used it can be a real bargain.
clearthink, As an example, and as a recovered watch addict, people don’t justify expensive watches based on their time-keeping accuracy (rational), and the differences between different high-quality products can be described as minor. While the features of luxury products can be objective, they may not be practical or necessary, and it often comes down to the subjective outside of what is needed beyond food, clothing, and shelter stability. I can identify all sorts of objective improvements in performance and quality of my Bergmann turntable, but to my wife and most people, they aren’t rational. I have it, and those improvements matter because I want it.
I clicked on this thread because I have a Sumiko MMT made by Jelco on my Oracle Alexandria and have been dreaming of an upgrade that will work within the specs imposed by my turntable. I was hoping for some informed, experience- based options. I hadn't noticed that the OP may not be. Why couldn't we all just have taken the high road and had that discussion? Without name calling? Just share data? Thank you to those of you who did take the topic seriously.
I am disappointed to say that so far, my conclusions have not changed; that is it will take a lot of money to get to a significantly better performance point and with my limited ability to hear very subtle differences; I'd probably end up with buyer's remorse. If anyone has any good suggestions I'd be happy to hear them. That's my problem: I can't leave well enough alone. ;^)
sfischer1"There is no rational basis for extraordinarily expensive anything."
There most certainly is and in actual fact and practice there are many very expensive items that can objectively, factually and rationally be justified that you do not see this suggests that you are
confounded, confused or disoriented.
@sfischer1 while I agree with you on economics (i.e. that there is not nor should there be any relationship between materials costs and end product price, provided the manufacturer can make a product you can price to what the market can bear) but the OP's assertion was that the expensive tonearms were a "rip off" i.e. that they provided no improved performance over a sub $1K model and that any perceived improvement was down to the naivety of the buyer.
While I do not want to enter any discussion of what a marginal improvement in fidelity is worth (to some zero, to others a very large amount) my experience was that better tonearms, which are often costly, do deliver appreciable and definite benefits. Whether that is worth it to the buyer is of course her decision, personally I drive a basic car and spend my $ on audio, but everyone's preferences are their own
A sort of statement I often encounter in Absolute Sound, and Stereophile reviews is the declaration of an expensive item's (20K turntable) great sound/performance but then compared to a 75K item (tonearm) which is appreciated as better, and the difference explained by virtue of the 3x price difference. This is absurd. the 75K tonearm costs that because that is what it will take for the business to be worthwhile. There is no mass production based price to materials/overhead cost ratio that applies. Instead there is a business gross revenue to materials/overhead cost ratio. If you can inspire customers, you're in business.
There is no rational basis for extraordinarily expensive anything. Such items may be scarce, have attention to detail, materials and performance lavished on them but cannot be rationally justified if an individual cannot afford them. Is a Ferrari inherently better than a Porsche? Arguments can be made from multiple perspectives. It was argued that the 100K home and Ford truck wouldn’t provide the same joy. For who? It is said that Sam Walton drove an old pickup and lived in a modest lifetime home, but had a personal jet to get him to his stores scattered across the country. For those who can afford them and want them, they will make a subjective decision.
I too read that the Rock’s headshell-end damping reduces sonic differences between arms, but that is an over-statement. Arm tube stiffness, bearing quality, geometric design, dynamic behavior, and other factors remain, and produce resulting audible differences. In a way, the Rock’s lack of resonances actually increases the audible differences between arms. It just makes arms marginal because of their own resonances acceptable.
I bought the silver ruby version. I was hesitant because the oil trough on the table is supposed to equalize all tonearms. But I noticed a substantial improvement over the rega arm.
@cdavids449---Excellent! The Helius Omega is great on the Rock, I've heard that combo in the room of the U.S. distributor of both at a couple of hi-fi shows in S. California. It's beautiful looking too, curvy like a voluptuous woman's figure. Did you get the standard Omega, or the Silver/Ruby?
I had a rega 250 on a townshend rock 7,just purchased a helius omega and noticed an improvement and it wasn't subtle. More so than moving from 1000 dollar preamp to a 7000 dollar preamp
Dear friends: Unfortunatelly now I can confirm with out doubt his very high level/grade of stupidity and with all respect to all of us we are more " stupid " following in this thread.
For the first time ever @rauliruegas and I are in violent agreement, let's leave the OP to fester in his solipsism
Modern High-End tonearms are cheaper on used market, so everyone can find and buy them at least for 50% of the price someone paid for new one. And there is no loss in performance if they are used (depends on condition).
When it comes to a new tonearm the shop price is a manufacturer wholesale price + distributors margine + dealers margine + taxes ...
When you buy same toneam used, your price most likely will be almost the same as the distributor’s wholesale price. This is much better in my opinion.
The quality is not always for posh people, normal people can buy the same luxury arm used for 50% off and everybody happy.
So what’s the problem ?
Today many (not all) High-End manufacturers prefers to sell direct to the customers, in this case they can make their prices more affordable and still make profit.
Also we have some amazing vintage tonearms from the golden era, some of them are overpriced even today, but some of them are less popular (less known) and not as expensive as they were 30 years ago in the high-end shops. This is a great opportunity to buy great arms for very reasonable price (used or even NOS).
Personally, i have some expensive modern High-End tonearms like Reed 3p "12 Cocobolo which i bought used for a low price compared to the price in the shops. But i have more fun with vintage High-End tonearms, doesn’t matter $800 or $2000. At least i have to find the right cartridge for each tonearm, also i have to use the arm in my system to understand how good (or bad) this arm really is.
If it’s new arm i’d buy used/demo for less than retails price. If it’s vintage arm i’d buy it only in perfect condition (or NOS in the box if possible).
I wouldn’t buy any new tonearm even for $4k, it’s too much for me. But i would buy 4 different used tonearms for $1k each to compare them in my system, used stuff does not lose its value when you re-sell them.
Anyway, someone can easily afford brand new $5 tonearm and that’s fine, those people normally sell them later for 50% and that’s amazing :)
Actually, @madavid0, the issue IS about whether you want to spend money on a high-end tonearm. you have a conspiratorial mindset in which anyone who disagrees with you must obviously be hiding an uncomfortable "truth" about tonearms and audio in general. Since you won't actually trust anyone's word unless they're "on your side," this discussion is pointless. The only answer is for you to pony up the cash for a high-end tonearm and hear it for yourself. then hopefully you'll do something useful and post your (honest) assessment on this forum.
The isn’t whether I want to spend a lot of money on high end tonearms or not, the issue is if they are a ripoff or not. Do they offer audio performance above cheaper ones? This is NOT hard to understand.
So far there is ONE poster who says he’s seen an improvement moving up from cheaper tonearms to more expensive ones. The others have all refused to address the question or admit that they think high end tonearms are a ripoff.
@rsfphil I rarely ever comment on politics and I apologise to others on this thread. Fox is not in the same league as CNN no matter how often trump says it. Fox is an entertainment channel bankrolled by the alt-right to further a nefarious agenda benefiting dirty fuel profiteers and MIC stakeholders while subverting government of the people by the people. CNN merely spins their reporting to point out that fact.
This is a troll thread. If you don't want to spend money on an expensive tonearm, then don't. Nobody is forcing you to purchase an expensive piece of audio gear.
Dear @madavid0: ""
Whom determines what's high end? do you know it? if yes then do it a favor and please explain it and if not then why are you talking of high-end tonearms ripoff? """
I told you that the ball is in your field and that before you want to pass to other field you must give answers to those very specific questions and you just dis not yet.
What are you playing with? because no one here ia an stupid gentleman as you could think ancertainly not more stupid that what you could be and I'm not saying you are an stupid gentleman.
""
So high end tonearms are a ripoff? """, those are your words not mines. I always say what I think and never is hard to me to say it.
Please give the answers. Do it a favor and post your answers, it's a true favor for you not for us.
High end tonearms, perhaps even more so than almost any other hi fi item, are artisan crafted works of art. Yes, there is a science to the geometry of a tonearm, but once you have mastered that the specifics of a design come down to materials and the precision with which it is constructed. It's no surprise then that the particular manufacturer I favor (Joel Durand) is a professor of music and a musician himself. The selection of materials (woods and sapphire for example) and the precise way these materials are used in the design of a given tonearm are all critical -- even the size and location of tiny weights all make a difference that is easily audible once you have the system set up.
The economics of such a manufacture is the antithesis of mass production and economies of scale -- you are paying for a lone manufacturer producing in very small quantities. Are the prices justified? Are any prices for any high end component justified? Only if you believe that the improvements in sound you hear in your system are worth it -- personally they are for me (i.e. to be very clear I am arguing that high end tonearms are NOT a rip off in any way shape or form).
My experience has taken me from Linn->Rega->SME->TriPlanar->Durand and at every step I have appreciated the improvements along the way. Ability to achieve optimal alignment and optimization of every variable is a given at the high end (and frankly one of the shortcomings of the SME designs btw) but there is so much more to that in the art (word chosen deliberately) of tonearm design.
There's another can of worms to be opened about the specifics of the design (parallel vs pivoted, unipivot vs gimbaled etc etc) but my comments about materials choice and specifics of design apply within any particular family witness the extensive threads on the optimization of certain parallel designs for example.
I don't get it. You ask a question and you receive several good replies, some agreeing with your postulate and some not, but all thoughtful and in the spirit of the purpose of this forum. You then decide to crap on anyone who doesn't agree with your preformed conclusion. What's wrong here?
@rauliruegas You seem to be trying hard to say "high-end tonearms are a ripoff" but without hurting people's feelings.
@br3098 and others say that what matters is matching the tonearm with the rest of the system. "You don't need to pay a lot for tonearms" is implicit in that statement so it's essentially saying "high-end tonearms are a ripoff".
In regards to your house and car analogy, a 20 million dollar home will be in prime real estate with the best views and neighbors. The home will be large and offer a lot of room for the best decor to offer the most pleasing living experience. Having two Ferraris would boost by joy of driving tremendously. The experience of living like that could not be replicated if I lived in a $100k home and owned one Ford pickup truck.
No one would say: "it's all about matching the home and car to your personal needs".
Dear @madavid0: Obviously you don't want to understand what other gentlemans posts including my last one explain to you becvause you still are asking the same no-sense question.
For you Luxury is a ripoff? : to live in a 20 million dolar house, two own two Ferraris and one Lamborghini, to drink day by day with your family food: Chateu Latour or Chateu Margaux or Chateu Laffite, to own an original partiture of the Beethoven 9 or a Picasso master work.
What's all those for you, ripoff? why?
Whom determines what's high end? do you know it? if yes then do it a favor and please explain it and if not then why are you talking of high-end tonearms ripoff?
The " ball " is in your specific " field " and don't try to pass that " ball " to other " fierlds ". Please gave us your answers to those specific questions.
Typically, you missed the entire point of my reply. Did you read anything after the sentence you quoted above? As do many of us, I fins that a correctly matched tonearm to be invaluable to optimizing the analog experience.
Where the hell you can find FR-66 for $3500 ? This tonearm price tag is over $6000 nowadays.
OK, but I was only thiiis much off. I was trying to take an optimistic approach.
If you don't know, you can just say "I don't know".
Typically, you missed the entire point of my reply. Did you read anything after the sentence you quoted above? As do many of us, I fins that a correctly matched tonearm to be invaluable to optimizing the analog experience. Elizabeth, whom I admire greatly (now that I know she cruises for naked guys), apparently does not share this sentiment. So YMMV.
I tried it this afternoon, and I didn´t notice any improvement in performance at all! No matter which shirt I wasn`t wearing, even expensive ones, nothing really happened.
Just goes to prove, not wearing cheap shirts is just as good as not wearing expensive ones.
Dear @madavid0: What needs a good cartridge from the tonearm?:
- pretty decent bearing ( it does not needs the " hardest " one. ) design. - very well damped - first rate (silver ) internal wiring with very best ( silver ) female cartridge connectors. - accurate and user friendly cartridge/tonearm protractor. - precise VTA/SRA/VTF, scating and AZ mechanisms - non-unipivot design.
More or less those are the main targets a cartridge is looking for. Normally good tonearms even almost all those targets and the differences in between can comes form te: executuon quality of the design, build materials used as magnesium, titatinium, wood, etc, etc, arm wand shape as J or S type, type of damp used, build material used at the bearings: stell, tungsten, ceramic, etc, etc., effective length and effective mass.
In reality there are many individual characteristics that makes the differences but not necessarily for the price.
Could happens that a specific cartridge can performs better in a Jelco than in a SAT or Triplanar one and this not really tell you that the Jelco is better but only that the cartridge is a better match with the Jelco.
Obviously that as anything in audio reproduction is room/system dependent and dependent too on each one of us MUSIC/Audio priorities.
Never exist and " easy " way to explain the kind of questions you posted because so many parameters involved .
@madavid0I wasn't sure what angle you were coming from so I recommended the lower end of the high end, an area I have a lot of experience in. ;-) The thing is this though, if you have experience of upgrades and the improvements wrought from them, then you'd get what improvements better gear brings, albeit, on occasion, at a higher cost compared to the perceived gains. In other words, better tracking which allows finer detail to emerge from the mix, and less congestion in busy musical passages. The greater the accuracy of the bearings, the more music retrieved. Add in improved build quality and the beauty of the craftsmanship, improved accuracy of VTA adjustments etc. all bring more to the listener. Of course, one has to be able to discern these improvements, and this may influence where you seek the best bang for your outlay.
If you don't know, you can just say "I don't know".
A Tri-Planar U2 costs $6k. A Triangle Art arm to go with my TA table is also $5k (although I'm sure they will offer me a discount because they never sell me anything at retail). But...I can get an Audiomods V with a VTA tower or a Jelco 850 for a fraction of the cost.
Let's say I want to move up from my TA Zeus to an Apollo? Maybe I'll take my bonus and go crazy with a Anna or above? THEN what will a premium tonearm give me?
What "features" matter to anyone? Counterweight adjustment, VTA tower...that's pretty much it right? I can get all useful features out of an Audiomods V, so why do I need anything else? Isn't there a performance difference?
A really good tone arm is a really nice investment- the bigger your record collection, the better. The ability of the arm to properly track the cartridge is far more important than which cartridge you use. If the cartridge tracks properly then your LPs last longer- no breakup or strain when things get complex. I've never heard a cheap tone arm really do that, although some are not bad (and are probably the ones that people say are alright when they promote older/cheaper arms).
I'm a fan of the Triplanar- nothing phases it. Tracks anything, never goes out of adjustment, One of the few that gets the deep bass right, the easiest arm to set up correctly as everything is adjustable. Has the hardest metal bearings made (which allows them to be perfectly adjusted- no slop, no damage to the bearing points; something you can't do with jeweled bearings). A damped arm tube. And so on- but its not particularly cheap. But that's OK- right now I have enough stupid rare LPs in my collection that I could easily sell it for over $100K (although it might take a while). When you have stuff thats irreplaceable, you think a lot more about doing it justice with good quality.
Quote " So what will a TW, SME, Basis, Graham, etc, give me that a Jelco or Audiomods won't?"
The Audiomod Arm is actually a very good arm regardless of price or your daft negative bs you spin on all things audio in these forums. Always the same negative content wrapped in the guise of a question. The apitamy of true ignorance, claiming to be seeking answers and knowledge in the darkness of a preconceived set of beliefs.
Experience through first hand ownership and use is king. Something many of us here have that your negative, narrow minded and pure opinion based idiocy lacks, sorely. There is a vast difference between an enquiring mind of those seeking information based on the experience and help of others and the internet troll who's threads ALL have a negative spin veiled in a question. Your not seeking answers at all , your attempting to make a statement you lack the testicular fortitude to come straight out with and lack any knowledge / experience to back it up , .... and sadly thinking your clever and fooling members...
I have heard is with the Fidelity Research FR-66. A great tonearm. Is it worth $3,500+ for a 25+ year old arm? Not to me, but every one that comes available gets snapped up pretty damned quickly.
Where the hell you can find FR-66 for $3500 ? This tonearm price tag is over $6000 nowadays.
So what will a TW, SME, Basis, Graham, etc, give me that a Jelco or Audiomods won't?
Maybe a lot, or maybe nothing. Your question argues your fundamental understanding of high end audio and audiophiles and sounds more than a little judgmental. Not everyone wants, needs or can afford a "high end" (aka expensive in your parlance) tonearm. Those who do or can may be looking for features or adjustability that are not available in less expensive tonearms.
Cartridge/tonearm/turntable matching is a complex art. Not every tonearm works best (or at all) with every cartridge and every turntable. Got a Lenco L75? If so you are probably not going to try and mount a Thomas Schick tonearm on it.
Let's say that you want to run an Ortofon SPU cartridge. You can do that on a Jelco (it will work but it's not the best choice, IMO). But the Audiomods?
No. I'll use another example: I enjoy the London Decca Super Gold cartridge. The best cartridge/tonearm combination I have heard is with the Fidelity Research FR-66. A great tonearm. Is it worth $3,500+ for a 25+ year old arm? Not to me, but every one that comes available gets snapped up pretty damned quickly.
Use what works for you and leave us to do the same. Please.
Defend them against what? Think about it. Most of these higher-end tonearms are built in relatively small numbers. Many by solo operators or small operations. Someone is staking their livelihood on making something that takes months of testing, months of building and discarding and testing and final completion. Precision instrumentation and micron-level bearing alignment is not cheap. Then it has to be advertised and dealers have to make money and returns have to be compensated and healthcare insurance has to be paid. Now divide all the hours put into that and divide by the number sold. Don’t parade your naiveté as if you were an authority on economics and engineering. By the way, if you want a taste of the "high end" for little money, invest in a Jelco 850 from George Merrill (best price) - it’s the cream of the crop.
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