If you search for tonearm recommendations you'll find an overwhelming amount of praise for $1k and less products. Audiomods and Jelco are the two most mentioned.
The Audiomods is just some guy making Rega-based tonearms in a workshop. Just some guy is putting out tonearms that compete with tonearms that cost many times the price -- from the likes of SME, Clearaudio, VPI, Graham, etc.
So the question is -- are tonearms just a scam? How is it that everyone loves Audiomods and Jelco to death and never talks about / dismisses high end tonearms? Is it because there's no real difference between one of these low-cost tonearms and the high end ones? Is an Audiomods Series V ** really ** the equivalent of a SME V? Some guy in a workshop equals the famed precision of SME? Is that once you have the math and materials worked out all tonearms are essentially the same? Or is it that most owners of record players online are dumpster-diving for vintage gear and simply can't afford to listen to better?
First thing I noticed is that dynamics were pretty much EXACTLY the
same. The old setup with the iPhono 3 seemed darker and little less
detailed, but the experience was more-or-less similar. So
basically....did I get savagely RIPPED OFF?
I don't think so. Dynamics come from the recording, not the equipment. But its worthy of note that most audiophiles are referring to distortion when they use the word 'dynamics' since higher ordered harmonics are used by the ear to sense sound pressure.
IME the mark of a good system is one that does not sound loud even when it is. It just sounds natural.
Alright. I'm resurrecting this topic because...I may have been RIPPED OFF. Not by anyone in specific but by being led down a false path re turntable systems and their upgrade paths.
My old turntable system: MoFi StudioDeck AT-AC9ML/II Ifi Phono 2
I was really pleased with the dynamics and overall quality of good records. From this experience I went down an upgrade path which lead me to the following: Triangle Art Concerto + upgraded platter (about 3 times thicker). TA Zeus TA speed controller Reed 2A tonearm ($2k used from Audiogon) Hashimoto SUT (from builder on eBay) Chinese all-tube phono stage + common NOS tubes and Herbie tube rings Smartractor for best possible alignment.
So, fast forward to several days ago. I noticed that the iPhono 3 Black had been released and was getting super positive reviews. There was a big jump in performance from the 2 matching the doubling of price. So I thought, why not try it out from Amazon I can always return it if needed. So I brought back out the StudioDeck. I was going to use this for phono break-in. This would also be a good opportunity to test my old deck and cart directly against the new and vastly more massive and expensive system. Now, I did set up the StudioDeck in another room and ran a pair of AudioQuest Forests across the room into my preamp (a cheap MBL 610 clone). The StudioDeck would have the advantage of not being in the listening room but I figured that in net the TA setup would still be better.
So I listened. First thing I noticed is that dynamics were pretty much EXACTLY the same. The old setup with the iPhono 3 seemed darker and little less detailed, but the experience was more-or-less similar. So basically....did I get savagely RIPPED OFF? In reality if MC design is good and the tables are setup right / run at the right speed are these systems basically all the same? So what's the deal? NONE of you guys realized this, some of you apparently with many years of experience?
Is it just the phonos? Is the cheap clone phono the bottleneck? I did put myself in the waiting list for a Don Sachs phono, will that be able to reveal a real upgrade? Will this iPhono 3 be able to show the upgrade after it burns in? Such a small upgrade for such a high cost seems like a flat out scam. Can any of you guys help me understand what's going on?
I just went through this entire thread. Originally, my search began to find examples of cartridges that work well with the Reed 2A Cocobolo 12" that I have mounted on my Luxman PD-444.
Very interesting, did you mount it on original Luxman armboard or on custom made armboard ? I have Reed 3p "12 Cocobolo, but it is not mounted on Luxman. I was thinking about thicker custom made armboard, i have many original LUX armboard too, but they are all have some holes.
I just went through this entire thread. Originally, my search began to find examples of cartridges that work well with the Reed 2A Cocobolo 12" that I have mounted on my Luxman PD-444. It currently has installed a Lyra Kleos. The primary tonearm is a Triplaner MK VII U2 with a Soundsmith Sussuro MK I. Originally, the Kleos was on the Triplaner and then I wanted to see what the Sussuro would be like on it.
What I want to end up with is a mono cartridge on one tonearm and a stereo on the other. The search continues.
I too bought the Reed here on AudioGon and I have both the Feikert and SmartTractor alignment tools.
@jollytinker I do love your post - just saw it today (yes - 9 months later)
Perhaps the OP should pop down to his local plumbers - buy a copper pipe - go get some mains cord - cut out the cable - go to a toy shop and use some marbles for bearings - and hey presto - he can say that's better than: SME V; Breuer; Durand; Basis Vector and Kuzma 4 Point.
@dhcod I have the same cartridge as you in my main table - a Decca London Super Gold with a Paratrace stylus - mounted in a 12" Jelco 850.
Could you kindly describe the different tonearms you moved through and the differences wrought?
I have only used the SME with the Decca and what I've learned is the more weight you add, the better it sounds and tracks. I'm currently using a Fidelity Research FS/3 headshell which is 20gm and I line the sides of the inside of the headshell with the lead tape that is used to add weight to tennis racquets and golf clubs. That allows me to use the extra heavy balancing weight that comes with the SME.
you pay, you get, it has always been like that and always be. How better depends from the rest of the chain, and your ears. Please also consider reselling prices and there you have the complete picture. On the other hand no bad products exist nowdays, all have a good standard but some animals are created more equal than others.
No one needs to say it because it’s so obvious. I have never made a carefully selected tonearm upgrade that wasn’t a huge improvement. This includes going from a Rega arm to a Jelco which was huge and a Jelco to an SME. And 5 more since then. A better arm. properly mated with an appropriate cartridge just sounds better. It’s not complicated. Better usually costs more. In almost everything.
The Audiomods arms were never "Rega-based", unless you consider using that company's good 1-piece tube makes an arm Rega-based. Every other part of the arm is non-Rega, and in the new Audiomods model even the tube is made by designer/machinist/owner Jeff, out of carbon fiber.
Older thread, but that TK-850L sure does look tasty to me (even better than a blue (is that a flavor?) Slurpee). Plus,
as an unsuspecting consumer
I love being ripped off. Just have to see if it will fit my Denon DK100 plinth.
I’ve had a Sumiko MMT (manufactured by Jelco: the current Jelco is basically the revered MMT) for 33 years. Sounds great, and like the Ever-ready Bunny, it’s been going and going.
No one wants to answer the question. Most serious responses boil down to "expensive tonearms are a scam". For example @lohanimal post above in which he likens it to the difference between a Casio and Patek; the Patek keeps time no better than a Casio so therefore it’s a scam.
The others just simply dodge the question by repeating meaningless truisms about matching arms to the system. If, say, a FIdelity Research is a good match and so is a Triplanar U12 SE, would it be foolish to chose the Triplanar — because you’re paying a lot more for the same performance? If that’s so, isn’t the Triplanar just a scam in the final analysis? Some guy with a machine shop making huge margins on suckers?
A few responders DO say there is a performance improvement with higher end tonearms — but these are the clear minority in this thread.
"The isn’t whether I want to spend a lot of money on high end tonearms or not, the issue is if they are a ripoff or not. Do they offer audio performance above cheaper ones? This is NOT hard to understand.
So far there is ONE poster who says he’s seen an improvement moving up from cheaper tonearms to more expensive ones. The others have all refused to address the question or admit that they think high end tonearms are a ripoff."
Can I just ask you the question - are all your opinions based upon making a jibe at what can be paraphrased as what you clearly think "more money than sense" audiophiles - or are you genuinely looking for guidance with a view to putting an arm on your TT.
You are asking questions on value - but that is utterly arbitrary. To person starving even £20 quid on a MM cartridge would be an extravagance. A Casio digital watch is as functional and accurate as a Patek Phillipe - likewise do you want food or a protein meal replacement shake. In other words what are your parameters? A Vertere or an SAT will be wasted on a Rega P2 lets' say. Put it on a OneDof or an AF1 and it makes sense. You don't put used Lada tyres on an F1 car - to some palpable and marginal gains may well be small - but to them it is value.
In fact with all your posts I am curious as to what you have as your hifi system? Without wishing to insult those who own these products (I have owned them myself) but are you trying to compare a Rega P2 with an Exact Cartridge to an AF1 with a Lyra Atlas?
You spend ages on the forums - as such do you actually listen to music, let alone your own music system?
edgewear - I've heard modified Denon 103s sound superb when properly loaded and on a matching tonearm. It isn't a turd in my friends system. Perla Audio has an engineer who does a fantastic job modifying the cartridge for a low price. I've heard it and my friend purchased one (about $500). What a bargain!
I’ve mentioned them earlier in this thread, the SoundHeights (link above) can ship overseas on request and reply on email request in english, but it is an exception. Normally japanese online shops do not ship internationally and don’t even speak english even if you visit them in Tokyo. About 5 years ago I’ve bought my SPU Spirit (limited edition) from them and they are good. When i’ve noticed miss tracking and became suspicious i have returned that new cartridge for full refund. Only 500 cartridges were made in this SPU Spirit series and mine was number 500 (the last one)! However, they are clearly explained me there is no warranty for buyers outside of japan. I would prefer to fix that cartridge under warranty, but it was impossible!
The joke's on me. I posted on the wrong thread, in my comment on buying cartridges in Japan. Davey, however, found me. This tonearm thread is just as annoying.
Boys, I travel to Tokyo frequently and when there I haunt audio salons in my spare time. You will never see a Lyra cartridge overtly for sale in Tokyo. Likewise for Koetsu, maybe excepting their lowest cost models. If you ask a salesperson about Koetsu or Lyra, they don’t know what you’re talking about. Likewise also for Clearaudio and several others aimed at the foreign market, i.e., outside japan. Other good brands can be found but there’s little price advantage especially considering the lack of a US warranty, like Audio Technica. That still leaves a few relative bargains, e.g., Shelter and Ikeda and a few brands we don’t see here in the US.
Boxer12...I agree! I meant to imply if you put on an album and use it as background music while you're doing chores, cooking, etc. I was skeptical about spending money on an arm because the rega has decent reviews. I have swapped amps, preamps, cables, etc..and have noticed slight improvements or maybe just a lateral move that sounds different. But moving from the rega to the helius it was a large difference with everything being better in every category!
cdavids449, " I can hear an improvement with a better arm but you have to be listening fot it"
Not IME. I used a rega rb300 for about 12 years & replaced that with a vintage Victor ua7045. Paid less for the Victor (12 years later) than the rega & it absolutely wiped the floor with it regardless of the cartridge that was mounted on it. I still have that arm & consider it on-par with the other arm I have set up, a Polestar. The Polestar is a little sweeter and extracts some more detail. The Victor sets a very nice stage.
The market is what it is; if you want a trip to musical paradise, you got to pay the price.
A studious audiophile has paid part of the price with the knowledge he's obtained over the years that enables him to get the most for his money, but at the end of the day, high end sound ain't cheap.
"Or is it that most owners of record players online are dumpster-diving for vintage gear and simply can’t afford to listen to better?"
Madavid, you hit the nail on the head; the identical same goes for the cartridges; since they can’t pay for the ripe grapes, they pretend the green grapes are ripe.
Right now the Yen dollar exchange is pretty favorable to the dollar...what does that have to do with any of my points about acquiring the cartridges in Japan, except for re-enforcing them that is! Do you actually have any clue as to what these cartridges sell for in Japan...if not I would suggest you do a little research before coming back here.
Dave, whether you know it or not, the price of gold is inversely proportioned to the value of the dollar; as the price of gold goes up, the value of the dollar goes down.
Since the Lyra Etna is manufactured in Japan, there are a number of factors that must be taken into consideration; one of which is the Yen, Dollar exchange.
@daveyf Of course you're right and it's not just the subjective priorities of the listener (aka as 'taste'). We also have to account for the synergy (or not) with the turntable and the rest of the system. Not to mention the system / room interface. No, I'm not suggesting there's an easy way out of your nightmare......
But at least we would no longer have to put up with the bias of reviewers, who are part of the system we want to change. Obviously we would have to accept ownership bias from the people reporting on their experiences. But the more input from different people you gather on the same tonearm/cartridge combinations, the more dependable the outcome might become. A Wikipedia of sorts....
It won't solve everything of course. Think about the Denon DL-103, generally acknowledged as a 'classic'. All those fans can't be wrong, right? So out of curiosity I bought one (a $250 cartridge will allow this) and tried it in all my tonearms as well as a variety of headshells (hadn't mentioned those yet). Whatever I tried, it sounded horrible in every combination. Sometimes you can polish all you want, but a turd is still a turd.....
@lewm where on earth do you get the idea that HP "seemed to prefer the shrill and clinical over the musical"?? HP was IMO one of the few audio writers who called it as he heard it....if he heard it as ’shrill and clinical’ that’s what he wrote, OTOH if he heard it as overly warm and ’musical’ that’s what he stated. HP was one of the first writers to state how great the Benz LPS MR was at the time, flying in the face of many who felt all Benz’ were too warm ( although not to me). Are you telling me that that cartridge is shrill and clinical??
Davey, now that you have admitted that you generally agreed with the review opinions of HP, I think I understand you a bit better. While HP was probably the greatest of audio Review writers, his opinions were diametrically opposed to my own in most cases where I was able to audition equipment he espoused. He seemed to prefer the shrill and the clinical over the musical. And he definitely tended to prefer the very expensive over the less expensive. So I am a bit surprised that you followed him so closely on that score alone. For one example, he may have been largely responsible for the popularity of the original Supex cartridges, which were the first moving coil cartridges to be widely marketed in the USA. To put it frankly, they were just awful.
@orpheus10 Uhmmm...Last time I looked inflation wasn’t on the order of tens of percentage points in a period of just a very few years ( i don't know what country you live in, but certainly not here in the US)...as some of the cartridges in question have risen to. As an example, the Lyra Etna was priced at $6K when newly released, now it is $8.9K...is that just due to inflation...please do tell!
@edgewear What you propose makes some sense. It would be an interesting data point for the cartridge and/or arm buyer to relate to. However, it is not solving the issue, and may in fact contribute to more problems...why...because you are assuming that the synergy that you are reporting on, is what the prospective arm and/or cartridge buyer is listening for. That is a matter of taste, and how do we determine if something meets our taste test; if we don't have an opportunity to hear it for ourselves. As was posted on my cartridge nightmare thread, in the old days, we had HP who generally called it as he heard it, and IF you agreed with his thinking on SQ ( which BTW, I did), you had a pretty good idea as to what you were getting. Not ideal by any means, but at least a fairly decent reference point, IMO. Today, unfortunately, we do NOT have such a reviewer of analog...and I do happen to think that MF's reporting is questionable at best....remember he has NEVER heard a piece of gear that he didn't like, so long as the price was high and ever spiraling!
When it comes to economics, audiophiles are the dumbest of people, they don't have a clue as to what the price of corn and gasoline have to do with cartridges and everything else; It's called INFLATION.
I found that tonearms make a difference. however, if you're not going to sit in the sweet spot, with the right room and speakers placed where they should be placed, you might be wasting your money. I can hear an improvement with a better arm but you have to be listening fot it. Also, paying attention to 'synergy' between arm and cartridge is a factor, I don't think it makes that big of difference if you stay in the middle of the road with each
Finally, the two 'rip off' threads have joined forces. Now the ugly truth can be revealed. Huh? Well, it seems that judgement calls about the 'value' of tonearms and MC cartridges as isolated items are not very useful. The synergy between tonearm and cartridge (or lack thereof) can be 'make or break', so perhaps we should view them as 'one component' within the system.
For all sorts of reasons I don't like 'ranking order lists', but might make an exception for a list of the best 'tonearm / cartridge combinations'. I don't think this has ever been tried, but with all the experience on this forum it could actually be pulled off. It would provide useful information for anyone starting out on this journey and prevent the sort of mistakes that fuel those useless 'rip off' debates.
We should probably start the easy way by listing combinations from one brand or designer, which would suggest that the synergy has been conciously built into them. There were 'made for each other'. Some obvious examples are: Ortofon RM-309 + Ortofon SPU series EMT 997 + EMT TSD-15 Fidelity Research FR-64S + Fidelity Research FR-7 series
I only have personal experience with the FR synergy, which is most certainly there. But I assume the other combinations have something similar going for them. I'm only a beginner at this 'cart rolling', but I can already mention three example that I've stumbled on by chance. Of course these are the most exciting discoveries: Audiocraft AC-4400 + Ortofon MC-5000 Pioneer PL-70L II tonearm + Sony XL-44 Fidelity Research FR-64fx + Phasemation P-3G
Most of these combinations are considered 'vintage' and none of them are anywhere near the 'trophy' (or 'rip off') price category. But in my system on the same turntable they can easily compete with the one combination I use as 'reference' and which does sort of belong to that category: Reed 3P tonearm + vdHul Colibri XPW Blackwood (combined retail price around 10k).
It seems that the 'trophies' are in truth hidden in the search to find the right combinations. From a hobbyist perspective this is a great deal more fun that dropping 10 big ones in the blind and hoping to find audiophile redemption. But of course no individual can try out every possible combination. This is what crowd based platforms are made for, so let's put those 'big data' to some good use.
@daveyf Would such a list of tonearm / cartridge combinations put an end to your nightmare?
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