If you search for tonearm recommendations you'll find an overwhelming amount of praise for $1k and less products. Audiomods and Jelco are the two most mentioned.
The Audiomods is just some guy making Rega-based tonearms in a workshop. Just some guy is putting out tonearms that compete with tonearms that cost many times the price -- from the likes of SME, Clearaudio, VPI, Graham, etc.
So the question is -- are tonearms just a scam? How is it that everyone loves Audiomods and Jelco to death and never talks about / dismisses high end tonearms? Is it because there's no real difference between one of these low-cost tonearms and the high end ones? Is an Audiomods Series V ** really ** the equivalent of a SME V? Some guy in a workshop equals the famed precision of SME? Is that once you have the math and materials worked out all tonearms are essentially the same? Or is it that most owners of record players online are dumpster-diving for vintage gear and simply can't afford to listen to better?
Modern High-End tonearms are cheaper on used market, so everyone can find and buy them at least for 50% of the price someone paid for new one. And there is no loss in performance if they are used (depends on condition).
When it comes to a new tonearm the shop price is a manufacturer wholesale price + distributors margine + dealers margine + taxes ...
When you buy same toneam used, your price most likely will be almost the same as the distributor’s wholesale price. This is much better in my opinion.
The quality is not always for posh people, normal people can buy the same luxury arm used for 50% off and everybody happy.
So what’s the problem ?
Today many (not all) High-End manufacturers prefers to sell direct to the customers, in this case they can make their prices more affordable and still make profit.
Also we have some amazing vintage tonearms from the golden era, some of them are overpriced even today, but some of them are less popular (less known) and not as expensive as they were 30 years ago in the high-end shops. This is a great opportunity to buy great arms for very reasonable price (used or even NOS).
Personally, i have some expensive modern High-End tonearms like Reed 3p "12 Cocobolo which i bought used for a low price compared to the price in the shops. But i have more fun with vintage High-End tonearms, doesn’t matter $800 or $2000. At least i have to find the right cartridge for each tonearm, also i have to use the arm in my system to understand how good (or bad) this arm really is.
If it’s new arm i’d buy used/demo for less than retails price. If it’s vintage arm i’d buy it only in perfect condition (or NOS in the box if possible).
I wouldn’t buy any new tonearm even for $4k, it’s too much for me. But i would buy 4 different used tonearms for $1k each to compare them in my system, used stuff does not lose its value when you re-sell them.
Anyway, someone can easily afford brand new $5 tonearm and that’s fine, those people normally sell them later for 50% and that’s amazing :)
Dear friends: Unfortunatelly now I can confirm with out doubt his very high level/grade of stupidity and with all respect to all of us we are more " stupid " following in this thread.
For the first time ever @rauliruegas and I are in violent agreement, let's leave the OP to fester in his solipsism
I had a rega 250 on a townshend rock 7,just purchased a helius omega and noticed an improvement and it wasn't subtle. More so than moving from 1000 dollar preamp to a 7000 dollar preamp
@cdavids449---Excellent! The Helius Omega is great on the Rock, I've heard that combo in the room of the U.S. distributor of both at a couple of hi-fi shows in S. California. It's beautiful looking too, curvy like a voluptuous woman's figure. Did you get the standard Omega, or the Silver/Ruby?
I bought the silver ruby version. I was hesitant because the oil trough on the table is supposed to equalize all tonearms. But I noticed a substantial improvement over the rega arm.
I too read that the Rock’s headshell-end damping reduces sonic differences between arms, but that is an over-statement. Arm tube stiffness, bearing quality, geometric design, dynamic behavior, and other factors remain, and produce resulting audible differences. In a way, the Rock’s lack of resonances actually increases the audible differences between arms. It just makes arms marginal because of their own resonances acceptable.
There is no rational basis for extraordinarily expensive anything. Such items may be scarce, have attention to detail, materials and performance lavished on them but cannot be rationally justified if an individual cannot afford them. Is a Ferrari inherently better than a Porsche? Arguments can be made from multiple perspectives. It was argued that the 100K home and Ford truck wouldn’t provide the same joy. For who? It is said that Sam Walton drove an old pickup and lived in a modest lifetime home, but had a personal jet to get him to his stores scattered across the country. For those who can afford them and want them, they will make a subjective decision.
A sort of statement I often encounter in Absolute Sound, and Stereophile reviews is the declaration of an expensive item's (20K turntable) great sound/performance but then compared to a 75K item (tonearm) which is appreciated as better, and the difference explained by virtue of the 3x price difference. This is absurd. the 75K tonearm costs that because that is what it will take for the business to be worthwhile. There is no mass production based price to materials/overhead cost ratio that applies. Instead there is a business gross revenue to materials/overhead cost ratio. If you can inspire customers, you're in business.
@sfischer1 while I agree with you on economics (i.e. that there is not nor should there be any relationship between materials costs and end product price, provided the manufacturer can make a product you can price to what the market can bear) but the OP's assertion was that the expensive tonearms were a "rip off" i.e. that they provided no improved performance over a sub $1K model and that any perceived improvement was down to the naivety of the buyer.
While I do not want to enter any discussion of what a marginal improvement in fidelity is worth (to some zero, to others a very large amount) my experience was that better tonearms, which are often costly, do deliver appreciable and definite benefits. Whether that is worth it to the buyer is of course her decision, personally I drive a basic car and spend my $ on audio, but everyone's preferences are their own
sfischer1"There is no rational basis for extraordinarily expensive anything."
There most certainly is and in actual fact and practice there are many very expensive items that can objectively, factually and rationally be justified that you do not see this suggests that you are
confounded, confused or disoriented.
I clicked on this thread because I have a Sumiko MMT made by Jelco on my Oracle Alexandria and have been dreaming of an upgrade that will work within the specs imposed by my turntable. I was hoping for some informed, experience- based options. I hadn't noticed that the OP may not be. Why couldn't we all just have taken the high road and had that discussion? Without name calling? Just share data? Thank you to those of you who did take the topic seriously.
I am disappointed to say that so far, my conclusions have not changed; that is it will take a lot of money to get to a significantly better performance point and with my limited ability to hear very subtle differences; I'd probably end up with buyer's remorse. If anyone has any good suggestions I'd be happy to hear them. That's my problem: I can't leave well enough alone. ;^)
clearthink, As an example, and as a recovered watch addict, people don’t justify expensive watches based on their time-keeping accuracy (rational), and the differences between different high-quality products can be described as minor. While the features of luxury products can be objective, they may not be practical or necessary, and it often comes down to the subjective outside of what is needed beyond food, clothing, and shelter stability. I can identify all sorts of objective improvements in performance and quality of my Bergmann turntable, but to my wife and most people, they aren’t rational. I have it, and those improvements matter because I want it.
My experience is that a Basis Vector 3 substantially outperformed a Rega 600 tonearm. I have owned a MMT in the past, and it was about on par with a Rega. Maybe one of the greatest improvements I made to my system. Everything was better especially the imaging and image stability/specificity.
I would not hesitate to upgrade my tonearm if I were you. Basis makes a great 9 inch tonearm. If you can find one used it can be a real bargain.
sfischer1"as a recovered watch addict, people don’t justify expensive watches based on their time-keeping accuracy"
Addiction to anything is a very sad thing and by definition those who are addicted to any thing at all are not rational in any way they are destroying they're lives and acting out of some painful unmet physical or emotional need but that does not prove "There is no rational basis for extraordinarily expensive anything."
No they are not . Now lets use equipment prices as examples , an amp can cost $2,000 or $200,000 a 100x increase . speakers can be the same 100x increase but a $1,000 tonearm or the top of the line Graham Engineering for $15,000 is only a 15x increase , So NO they are not a rip off in relative terms .
You didn't even bring up size or arm changeability .
@vair68robert you may need to expand your range of tonearms values. Top of the range SATs are currently $53K for the 12” and a Durand Telos with sapphire base is $75K so the top end of the market is well served 😉
The price difference between, say, a Schiit Vidar ($700) and a D'Agostino Progression is about 3,000%. The audio performance difference is of course night and day -- in terms of an arbitrary numeric factor maybe somewhere around 500% better? The value isn't the issue; there are people who think the value proposition is acceptable, therefore it can't be considered to be a "ripoff".
If there was no audible difference between the Vidar and the Progression, we could definitely say that in regards to audio performance the D'Agostino is a ripoff.
Since there is a large and clear audible difference between the two amps mentioned above we can't call the more expensive one a ripoff in regards to audio performance.
Now let's take two tonearms, the Audiomods V and the Durand Kairos. The price difference is very large, easily around 500-600%. Now, from an audio perofmance perspective is there a meaningful difference? How much better does the Kairos sound -- 100%, 50%, 10%, 2% ? Assuming both arms are well-matched to the cartridge in question, IS THE KAIROS A RIPOFF?
Folkfreak, if what you say is true about the cost of the 12 inch SAT tonearm, then one really ought to buy one as soon as possible. Because at its current rate of appreciation, it is a great investment. Every time anyone writes about it, the cost is greater than the last time anyone Road about it. But as far as the OP goes, he is just looking to make waves.
Lets for for the sake of argument say that the Kairos is 10% better than a generic arm does that make it bad value?
What if I then posit that the only way of achieving that 10% is by spending on a better arm like the Kairos? No other change anywhere else in this system could yield that extra soupçon of versimilitude. Is the value equation now different?
The fact that in audio everything matters and the better the system the more likely it is that everything matters is what makes it so foolish to talk about “massive” improvements like the amp comparison you suggested. See elsewhere for a discussion of why diminishing returns in audio is quite the wrong framework, in fact at the high end you experience increasing returns from incremental changes as each change (like a better tonearm) unearths a new dimension (and new set of problems elsewhere in the chain)
The Jelco is a large house that has built tonearms for many brands and has been building for itself for some time, tonearms from the affordable price and finished right for the required cost.
A good arm is also seen by friction, known that Jelco applies bearings on its tonearms with too high friction (30mg) not justified in the year 2018 if not on products of low or medium level but that is stubborn to apply to contain costs.
This friction could fit 30-40 years ago on high-level arms but now it is not the most desirable IHMO.
In my opinion, rather than spending $ 1000 for a tonearm Jelco I spend them on a vintage tonearm such as the Technics Epa 100 or Epa 500 which have friction of 5 and 7 mg respectively.
Is your opinion based on price / value only? Do you have actual listening experience with High End tone arms? Such as the Graham, SME, Kuzma 4 point, Triplanar or any other High End tone arm. Have you auditioned any at a High End dealer? High End Audio show? Perhaps, an extended in home audition pondering the purchase of such an arm? Or are you a key board warrior basing your opinions based on reviews on the web, maybe needle drops on You Tube?
As folkfreak pointed out; you may need to expand your range of values to include actual experience. Not reviews by others and price.
Instead of spending $50k on a f****g tonearm, drinking your "Château Latour" try to help children dying in some part of the world! The gap between rich and poor people is so huge.
I am certain I cannot even begin. Two people die EVERY SECOND.. most ugly horrible deaths. Face it. While I typed ONE HUNDRED people died. How many did you save? Do you think you made a dent in DEATH?
I said "help" not "save", how many $50k tonearm have you bought in your life? You don't even know what the tonearm is and why people are buying them, according to one of your post. So chillout and play with your automatic turntables. Your feelings about human life is very well described in your post.
P.S. At least i know for sure than Michael Fremer do charity, Peter Ledermann do charity too. But some rich audiophiles are mentally sick and need help too. I can not seriously discuss $75k tonearms or $200k turntables, this is some sort of illness and it has nothing to do with the love to music.
@elizabeth I do worry about myself, i do not buy $50k tonearm or any audio equipment with this price tag, i am not rich and do not pretend to be elitist audiophile. I don’t drink "Château Latour" and don’t drive Ferrari car. But i am considering myself a music lover and record collector, i don’t need $50k to enjoy music, my whole system cost less than $50k with 6 first class tonearms in rotation and about 20 cartridges. When i watch reports from the modern audio shows all i see is uber ugly overpriced equipment and absolutely awful music reproduced on them, in my opinion these people have no taste (just money). I’ve noticed than many distributors knows nothing about cartridges, this industry with its marketing departments forced rich people to spend more and more on audio equipment, i am happy to ignore this nonsense.
These guys reminds me those record nerds who can spend $12 000 on one single rare record in VG condition to play it on $100 equipment. The only difference is that most of the audiophiles normally playin horrible music on their audiophile pressing LPs with $70k tonearms and $200k turntables. Those two group of people deserve each other in this crazy world. At least record nerds have great and interesting music. If it's all for the music, then the music must be great first and then everything else.
If my posts are annoying for you for this reason then do not read it.
But i have no idea what do you contribute on this site, any usefull information about analog gear for others?
Surely this is getting a bit out of hand, doesn't it? We all know there is a group of people with excessive wealth and in our current economic system this can only go in one direction: further up. So what do you do when you already have a dozen houses around the globe, a few yachts to play with, a bunch of cars, watches, should I continue?
Somewhere down the line of such trophies comes our precious little hobby. Even when only a very small portion of the global 1% takes a fancy to high end audio, there is still big money to be made. Which explains the existence of 10k+ cartridges, 100k+ turntables, etc. Audio designers are just like normal people with mortgages to pay, so if there's a market for such items, they will produce it.
Does this make such products rip offs? Not necessarily. There are serious and talented audio designers who have welcomed this market as a unique opportunity to work with a budget that will allow them to push the bounderies of technology and performance (and still make a nice profit). Other designers may consider this to be objectional (or even distasteful) and choose to focus their talents on making high performance products at reasonable prices for regular folks. Some do both.
But as in every market there are also likely to be fraudulent types who will step into this 'trophy' market, stick a silly price tag on some fancy looking mediocre product and hope to make a handsome profit by selling it to some ignorant with money to burn. That would certainly qualify as a rip off, but why should we care?
@madavido you clearly have the wherewithal to purchase an inexpensive tonearm to go with your TA table. Spring for a Jelco and judge for yourself. I’d buy an SME V in a heartbeat if I had the cash and the right table to pair with it, and there’s lots of those.
I sure wish more of the people recording music and manufacturing physical media had the high standards observed by high end audio designers, manufactures, and audiophiles. To play the junk that is most recorded music on a high end pickup arm (and any other expensive component) is hard to justify. I long ago learned that the better the system, the worse most recorded music sounds.
Still, it beats the alternative. In some ways, even sonically-mediocre material benefits MUSICALLY from superior equipment, even if not sonically. The price-to-performance ratio evaluation is a personal one, not something that can be answered for you by anyone else. But then, the OP wasn't really looking for an answer to his question, was he? Or even a discussion of the topic. His post was more like a statement, with a question mark tacked onto it's end.
@elizabeth My choice of arms and cartridges has been listed here many times in different threads even with pictures, everyone who read this section of the forum is well know what i’m using and what i like when it comes to cartridges and tonearms. Even earlier in this thread i have described my philosophy (of choosing equipment). You have nothing special in your system, just good modern high-end as i can see, also you don’t use $50k tonearms and $20k cartridges, so you’re "normal", that’s good news.
I know people who can buy $12 000 record in VG condition to play on $100 turntable. I know many record collectors from all over the world, the rarity of the record is much more important for them than equipment. $300 for a rare 45 is an average price for them on auction or privately, but the "best" equipment they got is old SL1200mk2 with some worn conical styli (all for $300 on used market) connected to cheap dj mixer and a pair of crappy active monitors or average speakers. The value of their record collection is over million dollars, they don’t care about equipment, they are all about the music, believe it or not. Some of them are living in Japan where it’s much easier to find and buy some amazing audio equipment, but they don’t care. I know what i’m talking about, it’s not a fantasy.
At the same time the majority of the rich audiophiles with the most expensive systems are playin utterly bad music, and what the dealers playin at the high-end shows is rubbish, you can go from one showroom to another and all you can hear will be Diana Krall (same song). The new trend is to play some awful electronic music. Some of those elitist audiophiles have no taste as i said. Some of the most expensive modern equipment is simply the uglies design ever, so the designers have no taste too. The prices are insane.
Well, this is my private opinion, not to offend anyone.
+1 rauliruegas8,955 posts11-05-2018 5:03pmDear @madavid0: What needs a good cartridge from the tonearm?:
- pretty decent bearing ( it does not needs the " hardest " one. ) design. - very well damped - first rate (silver ) internal wiring with very best ( silver ) female cartridge connectors. - accurate and user friendly cartridge/tonearm protractor. - precise VTA/SRA/VTF, scating and AZ mechanisms - non-unipivot design.
OP Rauliruegas nicely answered your question. The first few items he mentioned remove things like vibration (damped tube ) and heat (bearing ) and so allow for clearer sound (wiring/precise setting) and more consistent playback over the years.
Like most everything in this hobby it's a question of improving the weakest link. If you have a high end table and cartridge you'll hear more improvements from a better tonearm than if the other parts are so so. Another variable is that some cartridges need higher or lower mass tonearms. Audio dealer can help with all that. Good luck!
madavid0 "Now let's take two tonearms, the Audiomods V and the Durand Kairos. The price difference is very large, easily around 500-600%. Now, from an audio perofmance perspective is there a meaningful difference? How much better does the Kairos sound -- 100%, 50%, 10%, 2% ? Assuming both arms are well-matched to the cartridge in question, IS THE KAIROS A RIPOFF?"
I guess the discussion here is price verse value or in the audiophile world price verse improvement . The cost of equipment verse the improvement can be viewed as a mathematical curve called a parabola where the cost factor is the x and the improvement is the y , as the x increases the y increases at a much great rate not a 1 to 1 ratio . Each of us has to decide how much we can spend to get that next bit of improvement RIP OFF no, just more and more expensive to get the last little bit of improvement .
One solution for all of us is to Buy Used from the " Haves ", they are NOT ruining it for all of us , they are making it available for all of us either directly with used equipment or indirectly by buying top of the line equipment that gives manufactures the resources for trickle down technology .
NKONOR ? So other than your 2 cents attack on me , Do you think that the money you have spent on your system is a RIP OFF ? because that is the question !
I found this forum interesting because the Audiomods V reviewed here http://www.sixmoons.com/audioreviews/audiomods/4.html is compared to an SME (I didn't catch which one, or not specified). It was very clear as to the differences and most audiophiles would prefer the SME. However, it was also noted that improving the internal wiring and the counterweight brought superior results to a stock unit and cartridge matching also provided further enjoyment. So, the Audiomods V is a very fine and potentially, high end tonearm.
I was fortunate to purchase an SME IV in 1989 for $1100. The bearings are not ABEC 3 or 5 supposedly. It sounds great with a Lyra or Benz cartridge on a VPI TNT VI mod. The current price is about $4300. I am not willing to spend a lot more unless I receive a lot more enjoyment from a newer, better arm. It is also a reliable arm with over 13,000 hours on it. Well worth the money over time. I considered an SME V and a Triplanar. I have an Ultracraft 400c on my VPI 19 for 78 rpm use. I'm not as fond of the unipivot with variable damping although it appears to work great with a Grado 78 cartridge and minimal damping.
A good condition Zeta arm can be had for under a grand. Send it to Johnnie Nilsen at Audio Origami in Glasgow (a Zeta expert) for a rewiring (copper or silver) and checkout (bearings, etc.). A classic!
I think this kind of rip-off ideas are very strange. If it was easy to create a cheap copy of any equipment there would be lots of cheap versions. Manufacturers also has to cover costs for Wales, marketing, support and R&D.
Not all small firms make cheap things. SAT is probably a small firm but makes very expensive tonearms. According to this article many of their customers are still happy.
I Must respond to your accusation that my post was a "2 cents attack on you".
Was my entire post a 2 cents attack on you or a particular part or question? I will answer your question; Do I think that the money I have spent on my system is a RIP OFF ? Absolutely Not. My system has evolved over the years since I embarked on my High End journey in October of 1988. I have auditioned a great amount of gear.since returning from Alaska in 1993. I currently have 5 High End shops within a 1 hour drive of my house, more if I am willing to drive 1 1/2 - 2 hours.
I have picked my system with the use of My Ears and long term auditions. I am completely happy with my current system.
I have used reviews in the "rags" and on the web as a starting point to search out gear that I might be interested in. I have only bought gear that I have used in Home Auditions. Most from local dealers but gear sent to me from out of state also. Yes, I paid the freight both ways.
I do Not use reviews by others or price. Actual Experience Only.
The Title of this thread is- Tonearms: Ripoff?
madavid0; His question is stated at the start of his third paragraph, " So the question is--are tonearms just a scam?"
I own a LP12 with Ekos arm for 30 years now. It has served me well.
At Axpona 2016, I bought a Kuzma Stabi with upgraded power supply and upgraded platter and 12" VTA arm. It too serves me well.
I bought a Technics SL1200G in March of 2018. I had it sent to atmasphere ( Ralph ) He built and installed the arm board; Tri Mai builds the Triplanar arms and mounted the Triplanar Classic SE tonearm that he built for me. This rig is a game changer IMO. My Lyra Kleos mounted on all 3 tonearms needs to be heard. The Triplanar takes the Kleos to a new level.
I am a DD convert and have no doubt that the Triplanar was spendy but well worth it to me. My Ekos and Kuzma arms are NOT in the same league.
My answer is, No ! Tonearms are not a scam. This opinion comes from owning 2 very good arms and a truly High End arm. Actual Experiece.
My questions are quite simple, Please answer them. What is your opinion based on. What is your experience with High End tonearms?
I have known you since October of 1971. We stood as friends until 2 +/- years ago. When did you get the thin skin? What happened? 45 years of supposed friendship over a hobby? My advice, if you intend to post on Forums, Get Thicker skin.
Since you claim my post is a 2 cents attack on you, please explain on this thread. My questions deserve answers. Do Not send answers to my private email. You accused me on an Open Forum. Please respond and clarify on the same Open Forum.
Same old, same old format from the OP. Quick look at his previous posts, and he's questioned cables, tonearms, companies, etc. Always the same format. As if he's providing all of us a service by exposing the ugly truth about high end audio.
I'm sure he'll lash out at me in some form or another for writing this. Have at it bud.
For me, its diminishing returns. I am sure the Tri-Planar on the 1200G is fantastic, but on my humble system, the stock arm is really good on the 1200G, especially with MM cartridges. I doubt my system could resolve the subtle details that a great arm such as a Triplanar or Graham, Fidelity Research, Reed, Moerch could and so on. I have heard great arms and I’m pretty sure they make a difference in the subtle details which in high end IS a big deal. The only thing is when you start to get to these levels, everything makes a huge difference, your isolation makes a big difference, like, you better have the system in the basement or slab on grade and so on. lol
I doubt my system could resolve the subtle details that a great arm such
as a Triplanar or Graham, Fidelity Research, Reed, Moerch could and so
on.
One thing the Triplanar gets right is the bass, which so many other arms do not. You don't have to have resolution for that- just enough bass response.
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