Thinking of replacing my Bat spaceheater with class D, real world thoughts please

Totally agree George.
But if I can get the best sound in my system AND reduce heat production and power consumption, it will be a very worthwhile trial.

I just turned on my BAT space heater for the winter.  It sounds great and the room is warming up nicely.  The W4S gets a winters rest.  

Says it all, you prefer the Bat.

Class D is not a heater beater

Ditto, +1 we (most of us) are all in it for the best sound we can get.

Cheers George

Two main rationale for the experiment.

Can class d provide the same audio experience for me as present very ungreen ss power amp.

Reduce the heat and power usage the amps kick out.

Both intertwined obviously.

I managed this feat in my av system and I am still very impressed with the sq from such a diminutive little box compared to the pair of 77lb behemoths that were serving duty previously.

Class D is not a heater beater

I must admit that now it is cooler it does not feel as hot...lol
Still have the urge to experiment, dontcwe all.
The nuforce will be here next week, we will hear what we hear!

I just turned on my BAT space heater for the winter.  It sounds great and the room is warming up nicely.  The W4S gets a winters rest.  

Since you asked, and you are apparently still interested in the topic, I suggest you read the following review of the Mola Mola Kaluga by Mono and Stereo.
Their conclusion describes pretty much what I heard from the similar Ncore NC1200 amps by Acoustic Imagery, which I sold in favor of conventional, SS, Class A power.
http://www.monoandstereo.com/2015/08/mola-mola-makua-and-kaluga-review.html

I have just purchased a pair of Nuforce Reference 9 v2 mono amps for very very little dollars so going to give these a whirl in my main system.
If I do not like I am not bothered as they will go to make my third system in the bedroom that at present is relying on a sound bar for amp/speaker.
Yes it means buying speakers and speaker cable but that is half the fun of it all right?
SQ impressions later......

"class-d's can have other problems that are not so easy on the ear"

Do tell.....

For now there will not be any class d being tried in my system , not made of money and the Wilsons took all my spare "hifi play money"...lol
The brief trial of my nuforce in my stereo rig did not go well although I am sure there are really good class d amps out there at a price.

I have never tried tube power amps so have no basis for comparison there, did have a couple of tube pre amps but always been ss power amps

And right now the marriage of mcintosh pre, bat power and wilson speakers gives me goose bumps with the right source material!

Yeah, properly designed class d doesn't have the distortion spectrum of tube amps.

Correct, but class-d's can have other problems that are not so easy on the ear, at least the distortions from tube amps are nice sounding ones "2hd", and easily liveable. 

Cheers George

Yeah, properly designed class d doesn't have the distortion spectrum of tube amps.

The only class D which is close to tubes is the Devialet and it still has problems in the treble region.

This an an excellent thread with lots of contrasting views.  I have recently auditioned the NuPrime ST-10 and the Red Dragon S-500 class D stereo amps.  I thought they both sounded excellent, no question, and they run very cool.  After about 60 hours on both of the amps, I swapped my McCormack DNA .05 Deluxe class A/B amp into my system and I was amazed that someone was again present in the music that was not there with the class D amps.  Maybe it was just the distortion, no idea, but the McCormack amp seems so much more engaging to my ears.  

To wit, I took the $1.8K Red Dragon over to my audio-fool friend's system to swap for his $10K ARC Reference 75 SE tube amp and he actually prefers the Red Dragon to his this ARC amp!  He has listened to it for a week and still loves it.  So, the thing of it is that you would be well advised to demo some of these class D amps to see if they are to your liking. If you go the class D route, you no longer with have a "room heater" and can forget about the hassle and cost of replacing tubes, which is a huge plus.  There is a lot of like about class D amps, but to my ears, they leave out something in the musical experience.  

@tango_tilingo  I'm curious as to which amps you've had prior to going with the Veritas and what your system was comprised of (prior to the Christine) and your speakers? Thank you.

Again thanks to all but for now the BAT/Wilson. McIntosh combo I am using right now is making me very happy and I am doing just what any good audiophile should...which is just sit back and enjoy the music!

TBH the room where my rig is located is acousticaly terrible being mainly glass and tile so until I move in the next 2 years or so I am probably just going to leave well alone as any changes may be more noticable in a well damped room not the glass palace I am relegated to right now. 

It all comes down to personal preference. No one can say what someone else will prefer. Try it for yourself as you will never find the answer on the internet. Just lots of opinions which will do nothing to clarify the issue.

Um, I think proper room acoustics are important for any setup, 2 channel, 12 channel, tube or digital amps.

I strongly encourage everyone to get that sorted early.

The idea that a well balanced system can't abide a Class D amp is not something I could support. I also could not support the idea that somehow better room acoustics will prove all tubes better than all class-D.

Best,


E

Hello, You've already had some great advice so I'll remind you we all have opinions and a lot of great suggestions....
Mine may not be appreciated by many but let me begin with the disclaimer that this is my overlall assessment and thus this is my general experience... in other words I'm not trying to be insulting and there are always exceptions to everything...
So here goes: If your current system DOES include / or matches the description of ANY of the following components then you will very likely find a transition to  Class D (If that's what you'd like to do) to be sonically painless and relatively satisfying to integrate.
*  More than 2 speakers

*  Any "Processor" of any kind including but not limited to DSP that effects anything more than a dedicated woofer amp which must be completely separated from the main signal channels and effects ONLY those frequencies under 200hz or so [but preferably no higher than 40-50hz maximum]. 

* Stock power cables

* "Radio Shack - Equivalent" speaker cables

* Multi channel receivers used as the 2 channel amplification.

* Any form of [video/TV] viewing screen located between the [only 2] main speakers unless completely retractable into an essentially out-of-sight mechanism
and thus completely inconsequential to room acoustics.

* Extraneous/superfluous furniture inhabiting the room forward of the listening chair (and preferably minimized in the room in general).

* Excessive reflective surfaces including windows/ sliding glass doors... and /or excessively overdamped room: heavy pile carpet, thick drapes, etc.

* Wall outlets/ circuits which must share the same lines as major household high current demanding devices such as refrigerators, HVAC systems, etc.

    I could go on. These are just general guidelines. 

On the other hand: If you tend to emphasize simple/ straightforward/ "uncorrupted" and dedicated signal paths..,If you savor seriously well designed relatively minimalistic equipment with a generally sole purpose.. if it's well designed solid state or [my prefence]: vacuum tube based...If you've experimented with a number of different cables..and if you may have taken more hours than you care to admit with exacting set-up procedures dominated mostly just by listening...    There's a very likely chance you will actually hear what the Class D amp is doing. 
    Then you'll be more likely to decipher its influence and judge more deservedly.
   Personally I have yet to hear one I like but your mileage may vary of course. Good luck and happy lissn'n.

  

 
I had an all BAT outfit a while back. VK5 + VK500 w/BAT PK.

thankfully, it was in my office and not in my listening room. yep. the big BAT amp gets hot. very.

A lot of amps do however. Class D has made some immense strides and is a prospect for me with my next system build. I was disappointed to see Bel Canto quit making their top tier 500 wpc amps though.

Glass and Class A will always be heat sources. Period.

for my money, it is worth thinking abuot putting the power side of things, if not all of it, into a separate enclosure, or room and supplying it with cool AC.

whichever way, keep mindful of matching the impeadances between pre & amps, and in the wiring too.
be well, J

Reasonably priced, I purchased a NewClear NC1000L, class D amplifier.  I've used many different amps in the past..  What I get with my 4ohm Legacy Focus SE speakers, driven by the NC1000L, class D, is very good.  Clean, detailed, with a very good sound stage.  1000 watts into 4 ohms, built in the US.  I have no affiliation with this company, just a satisfied user.  Not expensive, and good. Check the NewClear out.

Thanks George
It was an avenue I was interested in exploring simply because of the good results I had with the ht rig.
However in retrospect majority of the listening is dialogue and special effects...loud ones!
Not too much finesse needed there, just good muscle which class d certainly has in spades.
Just as another test I actually played some cds through the ht rig and although it sounded ok it is in a much lower league than my stereo rig. But it is oriented towards movies really with a large Martin Logan center and big psb sub for "effects" .

Dodged a bullet. So glad you kept the BAT before getting a Class-D.

The day will come though when that BAT will become a door stop, or boat anchor, and that will be when Class-D finally get a much higher switching frequency (the technology is on the door step) that will cure the problems you heard.
If you get a chance you will hear Class-D almost perfect if you get a chance listen to that very rare phoenix, the Techincs SER-1, as it already has double the speed of the switching frequency that everyone is using now, but it’s $35k!!. if your a King or President, you can get one.

Cheers George

Just a quick update
I did find time on Monday to play around and moved the nuforce ht amp over to the stereo rig for some tests.
Now it may be a little unfair as this cost $1600 vs $8500 for the BAT but I was very dissapointed in the results. Very metallic and the bass was more of a thud than controlled. Volume and power certainly but finesse and tonality, no. Soundstage and imaging also suffered badly compared to to the BAT.
Next test was Tuesday when my new( well new to me) speakers arrived, a pair of Wilson Witt mk1.
These hooked up to the BAT were a revelation, such solid controlled bass and nice and low, I was hearing notes I had never heard before on familiar tracks. Soundstage, vocals and acoustic guitar were probably on a par with the Focals ( these punch well above their price point imho).
I have read elsewhere that Wilson and BAT make a very good marriage and this seems to be the case.
So pretty happy with the new speakers I hooked the nuforce back up
Oh dear....pretty awfull to tell the truth, I do think Wilson speakers  need very good electronics behind them to sound right and this appears to be the case.
Now what a pair of higher end monoblock class d might do is another matter but the music I have right now with the BAT/Wilson combo does not make me want to pursue the class  d route at this point.
Blow the heat and power consumption, I can live with that!

I forgot to mention that I find the Creek Evolution 100A (and P) Class G circuits are interesting as they give you the first 20 or so watts in Class A and then the switching amp section kicks in.  I would really like to do a shootout of under $2800 integrated to see how the Creek would do.  It's really got something to show and so musical. 

This is a very interesting thread.  I read the whole thing and thought that I should chime in. 

I have the classic Summer Amp/Winter Amp dilemma, which I am solving now.  My system is driven by a Primaluna Dialogue HP Integrated.  I love, love, love this integrated.  But, it's toasting my room and it's only May in Chicago.  

Out of an effort to avoid some heat--and to be honest--dire curiosity I purchases (and am waiting on) a new Peachtree Nova300.  Peachtree really seems to have dumped some time and money into improving the switching amp technology.  

Part of my curiosity is to hear my PSB Imagine T2s with 300+ watts when the load gets in the 2 ohm range.  I still have my Class G, Creek Evolution 100A (now relegated to the basement driving KEF LS50s), and I'm ever-so-curious to feed these speakers more power and let them rip.  
All that said, I love the body and soul of tubes--yet I'm not afraid to just give this a run to see how I like things.  And let me just add, that I have enough preamp tubes (12au7 and substitutes) to last me into geriatric age--I'm 43.  

I have no idea what the OP's resources are and I surely don't think one should make moves just to do so or because the "bug" bites.  But, just 10 years ago I was unable to really afford making such moves in good conscience.  I echo the sentiments that you should take a dip in the Class D pool without investing a fortune to start.  I wouldn't sell that VTL though. 

Why not try out that superb NAD M22?  I can't find much information on Red Dragon, but its product lines made me curious.  

I will be certain to follow back up with folks to let them know where the Peachtree Nova300 fits in with the Primaluna and the Creek Class G.    

Thanks all to a great discussion! 

Class G?

Hello, Google....

I listen to class D.   I can't tell
You not to do it.  But i would never
Make the switch. Unless class D
Amp cost $20 k.  

I have the NAD M12/M22 combo which as far as Class D is concerned is fairly high end.  They measure great and don't have any any of the etched/digital sound to them.  They are pretty smooth and about a week ago I would've sung their praise.

That is until a week ago when I took them to a very high end dealer to audition some Sopra 2's. Their room is pretty heavily damped and it acts like a microscope for any changes in gear or cables.  I'd never experienced anything quite like it, you can be VERY discerning in this room.

To cut to the chase, my NAD setup felt DRY and lifeless in there compared to the Class A/AB amps we listened to.  I didn't want to admit it at first because it's deflating to hear your gear getting outclassed, but they just were.  We swapped cables out, amps, preamps, different speakers, etc. and the main culprit was the NAD M22.  

The dealer even said this was THE BEST Class D he had personally heard though he didn't carry any Class D as they carry a stigma whether warranted or not.  And to me they were just simply getting outclassed by some decent but not over the top Class AB from Pass, AVM, and Simaudio.

Way more musical with much better tone, more harmonic richness and bloom.  Deeper and wider soundstages, you name it.

YMMV

I actually went through something similar to you, although in a different step. Like class A, A/B or tube not all are created equal. I think once you get to top quality gear it comes down to a matter of preference. 
I was bryston fan for years and was interested in tubes but didn't like the lack of power. I started auditioning different class D amps and liked the bel canto's a lot , I thought the nuforce's were decent and the Rowlands were nice but not a huge difference from the brystons. I came across spectron (musician ii) and it was a relevation. I then added another to run mono and had them both upgraded to hybrid plus status. I think spectron does class D correctly and enjoyed them for years. IMO they have the muscle of the brystons and the smoothness and detail of tubes (more of a KT120, not warm like KT88). 
I enjoyed them for years but something was always missing for me , and after a while I realized it was the midrange. I could listen to Floyd all day and be mesmerized but it never got Lou reed right to me. 
I actually was audioning BAT because I wanted something warmer but I changed my speakers shortly after and heard some of the belles stuff and never looked back. You always gain/lose something when changing equipment for the most part but that Belles SA-100 just didn't everything right for me, I since upgraded my tube pre to a belles LA-01 and the combo with my Vandersteens is breath taking. 
You can not tell my set up is all solid state, it has power and smoothness like I've never had in my set up. I did lose some low end but what I gained everywhere else is amazing.
It all comes down to system symmetry but I can tell you for class D the Spectrons are something special. 

My Martin Logan Ethos speakers come with a 200 watt class D amp to drive the active woofer. It is pretty easy to get a 30-day trial period with many products...so recommend the "try and buy" for your own system. An audiophile friend of mine and myself heard a $300k system and neither of us thought it was as good as our much less costly setups...all in the ears of the beholden.

I've heard the  Jeff Rowland class D integrated driving speakers similar to mine (one up in the model chain) and was very impressed.. that coming from a SET guy.

Its not surprising that W4S are  good listening.   They were Cullen in their previous iteration and were making the class D amps for PSA back then.. The internals I suspect and I don't know more that that-- If I recall correctly.        Class D   can excel depending on system synergy... just like any other setup.    And a credit to its capability and sonic  virtue--Im using a diminutive  $180 Trends class D without readily discernible dysfunction.  Certainly would have to A/B with another amp to perceive the difference  and  those I have here all cost much more as well.    

I would like to first start by saying I am a dealer of some great sounding HI-FI products.

If you're making a move to Class D or Class G Amplification, Make sure the manufacturers are making a Great Analog power supply. Always keep the Amps on. Do not turn them off. They stabilize after 24 hours. Give them 300-400 hours of break in. You will be very pleased.
I carry the Audio Research DS450M Monoblocks that we sell at $4995.00 a pair now.

The view from the cheap seats:
Comparing a BAT amp to class D is like comparing  Quintarelli Giuseppe Amarone Della Valpolicella Classico Riserva 1995 to Chianti, a very specific flavor to a broad range. Implementation is more complex than Hypex vs. Icepower, just as all class A/B amps don't sound the same.

For what it's worth I recently upgraded from a modest Class A/B integrated to a Primare I32. I am very happy! That being said, I am a detail fiend. I use the Primare to drive Canton Ergo 3 way towers; which are also very detailed.

I recently switched from SS forever and went class D.  I have been a Rega, Creek fan forever and needed to sell off some stuff to bring money back to the family.  So, I sold some higher end Rega stuff and went to Wyred 4 Sound since I was intrigued by it, just like you.  Dare I say, what was meant to be a compromise has turned out to be a real joy.  I have a W4S DAC-2 plugged direct into ST-500 MkII power amp running my KEF LS50.  To me, their best feature is projection of voices regardless of volume.  I listen to a lot of "mellow" acoustic music and Class D has served that music well, IMO.  I also appreciate the extra wattage (I've always had amps <85 wpc).  When I crank it up with the kids and have a dance party there is no lack of slam.  

Also, my dad's system runs bel canto mono blocks.  Unsure of the models but they are 1000 wpc.  He's using them to run Legacy speakers.  I feel the same about the vocal projection.  Feels intimate to me.  His system is way cooler than mine.  

So, there's two very different systems running Class D that I would consider successful in relaying music enjoyment.  

Finally, one of the reasons I invested in W4S is that they are always improving previous models of their equipment with upgrade packages.  By the time you get an itch for "more" you can do it in a more fiscally responsible manner (as if spending all this money on our audio rigs is fiscally responsible in the first place).  

Hope this is helpful.  

@mitch2 
The BAT is just the same, i can tell a difference in sq after it has been on and played for approx 30minutes but not enough that I leave it on all the time, it comes on with a 12v trigger from the pre and that is it.

@mains

I checked out the NORD, looks good and fair price but if I went the ncore way I would more than likely stick to a homegrown company like dsonic or similar but thank you for the headsup!

When I owned my first two Clayton Class A amps (M200 and M300) I used to believe I needed to leave them turned on most of the time so they would sound their best, in spite of the heat and energy usage.  This time around with my upgraded M300, I am more relaxed about turning them on only when I am ready to listen.  Sure, they sound better and better throughout the approximately 30-40 minute warm-up period and sure, maybe they sound another 3-5 percent better if they are left on for longer periods of time, but they sound so much better than the really good Class AB amps I have owned and so much more satisfying than the NC1200 amps I owned, that I can enjoy them from the minute I turn them on.  Basically, I am saying don't worry about the heat - if you like the sound of your BAT amp you may find the sonic trade-off is not worth switching to a smaller, cooler-running Class D amp.  If you want to try Class D, decide which amps you would like to try, and obtain loaners so you can compare them head to head with your BAT.

Class d wonderful no heat no good sound try Pass used much better.

hi,
look into NordAcoustics cheltenham in the UK , they are the best class D available on the market right now, they replaced a pair of krell fpb 450mcx and my krell fpb 600mc, more details musical everything even dare i say it better bass. Emporium hifi in the UK sells them all around the world you will nor regret it, the very top monos i got are under 2k good luck.

Yes the BAT certainly is a very efficient heater for sure...lol
However I have to say that since starting this thread I have made a few changes that have left me in quite the sonic nirvana for now,
New speaker cables, wooden blocks under the speakers, very carefull setup of speaker position and angles and swapping the sub with the one that was in my ht rig so now is a REL Stentor which is a very musical 10 inch 500w sub.
All this has mightly improved the imaging, soundstage and tightened up the low bass no end
For now I am doing what we all should
Enjoying the music
Class D adventures are on hold right now...lol

I forgot to mention--- I had the PS Audio GCA-100  class D amp that came out after the HCA-2.   GCA is a  great sounding amp as well... The HCA-2 had quite a following though and many preferred that earlier version.  

Oh yeah,   the BAT you have  is a beast.  great  amp and certainly can be fun at times.   I wouldn't be able to run it though like all the time.   .   best thing is switching off  from the smelter   to other amps at times so as not to heat up the house on a summer day.   Thats what I have to do - take a break from the Pass and the BAT probably is warmer.        

Been there --  the  simple answer at least for me is  --- Ive wound up relegating  the class d for duty in hot weather.     I wouldn't be in a hurry to sell your BAT although that sounds like a bit of heavy weight and likely equivalent good listening could be had with an amp that weighs half as much or so.    I would have to see what model that it is and if its  tube ,  in my experience,   that Class D will not be as satisfying as the tube or  s/s  class A or A/B amp..   Its a different sound and has it place  and can sound good-- It obviously works wonders as a lot of people go with the class d as main amp.... To me I just seem to get a little more from conventional amplification topologies.     I like to mix em up.   tube amp,  class a/b amps,  class A amp (Pass)    and a Trends for the hot weather-- all used among 2 systems.   A good buy available in the classifieds right now is the PS Audio---HCA 2  or something like that.   Lot of raves on that amp..  Good way to check out class D .   Have fun.  

Sounds like it's high time to begin doing some 'blind hearing tests' on D vs. 
'anything else'....

D will win eventually, if only by sheer weight of numbers and application.  I'd bet on this, but I sincerely doubt I'll live long enough to witness the end of the 'contest'.  A, A/B and all will live on, but only as 'curiosities',  as those of us who know them well enough succumb to the inevitable.

It's already well known that stasis is self-defeating.  You either grow, or you will die.  You can only adjust the span, not the outcome. ;)

Get behind the new tech, and make it become what you want.  Put your dollars where your interests lie.  It's always worked before...look at the thing you're typing into for an obvious example....;)

I can't make a firm suggestion unless I know what speakers you have and how efficient they are. I am not a fan of BAT and you could certainly have a much better tube amp. Forget the class D. 

Class D makes big power at low cost. It is this factor and this factor alone that compells manufacturers to adopt this topology. Yes, some can sound decent but replacing a BAT tube amp?... If your amp is causing you to sweat, you can move onto good Class A/B and not miss much in the way of musicality.
If you can’t tell a difference between Class D and A/B, time for a hearing exam.

Holy crap, you should be upgrading your speakers then worrying about your amp.  Talk about a mismatch.  

As far as class D goes, I highly highly recommend looking into the NEW Peachtree stuff.  Nova 150 and 300.  Simply amazing.