Thiel Customer Service - New ownership is terrible!!! - WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS COMPANY ?
For the past month I've been trying to contact Thiel to get an R.A. for my tweeter that needs to be rebuilt for my 7.2. THERE IS NOW NO PHONE NUMBER FOR CUSTOMER SERVICE AS THERE USE TO BE as recently as last year and the support email address states " we'll reply within 48 hours " is a lie! I've contacted them three times without a single reply. Any ideas or suggestions? Anyone reading this might want to think twice if buying any Thiel used or new products now a days. What a shame.....
Ah! See you used the word "value" and that's what we try to strike a balance for: Performance at a price point. We spent a lot of money researching the audio market and engineering hardware, firmware and mechanicals that let's us achieve performance that's consistently rated 4X-10X above it's price point in reviews. We worked really hard to deliver that performance at a price that is reasonable in the context of the industry. That may not mean that it's affordable for everybody but it's reasonable in the market. (And we recently quit selling to discounters all around the world. Discounters are killing the industry. If there are no dealers, then new customers don't have anyone to guide them through the process of entering into the hobby!) You'll have to trust me when I say I understand that the realities of life make it hard to afford the hobby! I get it, I really do. )
I'm really not looking to start an argument or perpetuate one. If someone starts out with a Dragonfly and eventually moves up-market, I think that's great. At least they're not listening to MP3s any more.
But buying decisions need to be based on Price V Performance. If it's just about Price, go buy a Beats Pill and be done with it! Amiright?
If discounters won't pay what the manufacturer needs to get for a product then don't sell to them for a discounted price. Of course there will always be people resellers negotiating for a lower price, bulk discount, whatever.
Price is almost always a factor. How many of us can afford to go buy the very best of everything without regard to price? You can drop hundreds of thousands of dollars on a stereo. Pretty much everybody is looking for the best value for what they have to spend. This will never change. I'm sure manufacturers look to buy parts as cheaply as possible as well. Nobody intentionally overpays
I've bought both new and used and the idea that there's something wrong with used is absurd. If a person upgrades a few times of course they're going to have extra stuff that someone else might as well enjoy. A lot of people trade in or sell their used stuff to help afford the new stuff. It's a fundamental part of the hobby.
Firstly, I think old Thiel speakers keep to be one of the best ones, in absolute terms. For instance, for my taste, Wilson Audio speakers, which cost is uncomparable to those of Thiel are no better - with apparently more defined mid and high ranges, they, for my taste, sound more sharp and bright. And lower frequencies of CS 6 and CS 7.2 and just incomparable with even largest Wilson speakers.
So keep your CS 7.2 and keep trying to fix the tweeters. I have completed a similar task for my CS 6 about one year ago. Although it took almost one year, the coaxes were rebuilt successfully at Thiel. At that time, the telephone number did work and also e-mail communication was especially useful. Try to contact Rob Gillum at rgillum@thielaudio.com. Although quite busy, he is a nice guy and I think will be able to repar your tweeter successfully, as he did with my two coaxes. Good luck!
I tried to call both American Airlines and StubHub. I was informed of a long wait time and offered a call back when my turn came, 20 to 45 minutes later. I tried 5 times with A.A. and never got a call, only once with StubHub and didn't get a call but was inured by my A.A. experience. I think the message from corporate America is clear: "If you don't want to be disappointed then don't buy anything" is the new normal.
This customer review from the Thiel website pretty much sums up the new target market:
"
I recently added the Aurora Tour to the decor in my office. Wow! Am I
ever impressed with this product!! Not only is it well made, it's also
beautiful. It doesn't feel like a bulky masculine speaker like so many
of the others. It not only fits into my decor, it compliments it. The
set up was also really simple too. I have nothing but awesome things to
say about this speaker. I plan to buy a few more for other rooms in my
house so that I can link them all together using the app."
Discounters deprive manufacturers of revenue by demanding lower prices. That discount comes from somewhere and believe me, it ain't their own pocket!
Also, to clarify, I didn't say the "I" expect someone to buy something annually, I was trying to explain the PE perspective. PE firms care about recurring revenue from existing customers. That's one of the reasons why PE doesn't typically work with audio companies. We know that we typically get one chance to land a customer. If we're really good, maybe they'll come back for more as we build new products. But we're not dumb enough to assume that's the case.
And I dispute your assertion that "
For almost 100% of people price is a factor." If you care about innovation and quality then you need to be prepared to pay the price that that costs, else it won't occur. If all you care about is price, then by all means buy cheap stuff or used stuff. But as you do that and put companies out of business, its kind of disingenuous to complain that they either aren't providing service or went out of business leaving you no options!
W/my dealer everything I purchased from him he's allowed me to demo at home w/out charge. Vandersteen 2CE's many years ago, Thiel 2.3's and my current Aerial 5T's. Also all my amps and preamps. A good dealer is excellent to have also he will deal w/the manufacturer personally. My dealer knew everyone at Thiel as he dealt w/them for over 25 years and if their was a problem it would get solved quickly. If the customer service is not good from a certain company he has dropped them from his store.
I think companies should charge what they need to for service to turn a profit on it. I suspect Thiel could charge a lot since they have such devoted owners and there's very little new being sold that would be a legitimate replacement.
Since Thiel has discontinued all of the traditional Thiel designs and concepts I wonder if they could sell/give away the service part of the business to a former competitor. There must be a company that could carry on the servicing of older Thiel products that would like to get a foot in the door with Thiel owners. Say Vandersteen bought it so when the 30 year old Thiel speaker can't be repaired anymore they can offer a replacement that has at least some of the qualities that Thiel owners value.
The idea that anybody is going to buy a pair of Thiels once a year is silly. There probably are a few people who will do it for a few years while they're moving up the line but nobody will do it for long.
How does buying from a discounter deprive a manufacturer of revenue? Haven't you already been paid at that point? For almost 100% of people price is a factor. Once you've been in the hobby for a while you really don't need the dealer as much. I'm comfortable buying with little or no audition in a store. I would be willing in some cases to rent a product for a while to see if I want to buy it. I don't know if anyone has that service. Some dealers let you try something out for free. I tend to think the dealer should get something for this as it is a very valuable service. If I don't buy then the dealer gets nothing. If I do then maybe take what I paid in rent off of the price.
Welcome! aolchris, Thanks for sharing your story regarding Thiel. Sorry, to read about your situation w/ customer service. Looking over my notes, I have, rgillum@thielaudio.com as an email address. This information along with info from tmsrdg will hopefully place you a few steps closer in resolving the issue. I will do more researching into Mr. Gillum for furture plans related to his position as well. Keep me posted as developments unfold for you.
Simple and inevitable- a great innovator, designer, engineer and lover of music died. What is left is but a name and a legend. I warm up my teak Thiels via tubes and toast a once vibrant company.
I have found first-hand that you are exemplary in responding to both customers and owners (not sure which one I am at this point - new product coming?), having received immediate-response emails from you personally on weekends and even when you are at shows. Just can’t say enough good stuff about my correspondence with you and about the customer/owner focus at Exogal, most notably you and your team taking time to unravel a very technical issue with a faulty hi-rez file I purchased from HDtracks.
I hope that you are wrong about Thiel Service though...
Just sticking my nose in because I know something about all the things in this thread. Having spent years in PE, I will first confirm that you are right about a lot of PE buys. But when PE firms buy a company, they always have some sort of plan to grow the business. It may not be sound or it may rely on a key person who later elects not to be a part of it but I guarantee it's about growing the business. You're right that old customers may not be the priority but in the PE world, if you don't buy a product at least once a year, you're an OWNER, not a CUSTOMER. Customers come back and spend more money, owners don't spend money but do cost money with pesky things like repairs and such. Note that I'm not defending the situation with Thiel, just offering perspective on how they think.
We try to offer personal service but it's time consuming and expensive but we think it's worth it in the end. But this is a tough business and the cost/price pressures are enormous at a time when most customers prefer to buy from discounters which a) devalues our work and b) deprives us of the revenue we need to deliver the demanded services.
There's no doubt that it's an expensive hobby but remember that a lot of people share some responsibility for the decline in service a lot of companies were known for. We're all mostly lucky because we have a baseline set of knowledge that allows us to make informed choices about gear. But our company hears from lots of interested consumers with little or no background in audio that the dealers are dead or worthless and the forums just mock them for their stupid questions. We take extra time and patience to help them because we believe it makes lifelong devotees of our gear.
I read a lot of comments in a lot of forums and groups that amount to: "Everything sucks except my gear in my room." Good for you but frankly you're not helping.
My wife likes to say that Complaining about today doesn't make tomorrow better.
Ask yourself what you are doing to change the situation for the better. If you aren't, then make different choices or frankly, shut up and go away. If you're helping improve the situation then that's awesome and keep it up.
Re: Thiel, you're basically screwed. Support the aftermarket repair guys and keep them in business. But Thiel's gone. At least the one you used to do business with...
As for the rest of the manufacturers, support us! Whether it's us or our competitors over at PS Audio, we're going to bust a gut trying to help you because it's in our interests to!
IIRC no one is complaining of poor service up to now. In fact, quite the contrary. Just a lot of speculation and over-reaction (including me) to a perceived threat.
recently had to replace the mid/tweeter on my 2.7's. rob was very helpful but i did buy a spare just in case. it sucks what this company has done to a wonderful brand. i am on my fourth and obviously final set of the 2 series starting way back with the 2's and moving up. good luck. Rob Gillum <rgillum@thielaudio.com>
I'd surmise that would be true of the current Thiel owners, but Rob certainly has cared about us Thiel owners. In August he was letting me know he had spare parts for the legacy speakers.
^I saw that too. If all fails contacting Thiel, I'd still suggest reaching out to Bill. He has an excellent reputation, (and I personally know of a very satisfied Thiel user) working with all kinds of typical and exotic drivers. At the least; he might be able to put you on the right path, at best; he might make an exception.
Hello and thank you all for the support and information. Although I have not contacted Bill directly yet, ( if you read this Bill, feel free to let me know otherwise here ), The Millersound web site says in bold lettering at bottom of page: "Kindly Note: WE DO NOT REPAIR OR SERVICE TWEETERS" That statement seems pretty cut and dry. So does these mean I'm SOL??? Again, I need my tweeter from my Thiel CS 7.2 repaired / rebuilt. This is that unique tweeter / midrange set up that I believe shares the same voice coil. The midrange works. Heck I'd buy another new / used one if available and reasonable. What happened to all the parts left over from the original ownership? Thank you again to all members - much appreciated! Regards.
For those of us unfamiliar: Could you explain Bill's relationship to Thiel? Did he work for Thiel and might he have spare parts? I don't see Thiel listed under the brands he services. Thanks.
I tried calling the KY operation -- just got a prerecorded voice asking me to leave a message. No "you have reached ... etc." Very strange. Does anyone know how to reach these people? I did speak with Rob about a year ago when contemplating a move up from my 2 2s. An excellent individual. But that was then.
The awful new Thiel website fairly screams "we are in our last stages and going out of business."
Thiel has been going through CEO's quickly, just named a new one last month. Real, non-lifestyle speakers are now a made to order product and I don't think they have any dealers, just internet. Maybe they'll take them to shows or something.
As a Thiel owner and fan I've watched this unfold over the past several years. The new CEO is some marketing broad with zero interest in audio. I have no idea why anyone would buy any of their new products. They are so clearly answers to questions nobody asked. There are already lots of lifestyle speakers. The other speakers are basically overpriced PSBs which of course nobody needs since we already have reasonably priced PSBs.
Rob Gillum has been very helpful to me since I bought my 3.7s a couple years ago. He was in touch as recently as last month to say he had parts for the 3.7s. Though I have not been in touch with him since.
That has not been my experience thus far, ebm. Kathy of "legacy" Thiel once drilled me a new one re: $$ on repair of drivers many years ago but Rob Gillum has been fair and profoundly helpful in all my associations with him, even sending free parts for self-upgrade on one occasion.
As previously stated, Thiel service has been a separate P&L center for several years now. Hopefully more a "P" than an "L". Those that have complained (or will complain) about the cost of their service will now better understand the realities of survival outside of our little nirvana.
Even those as misguided as the "new" leadership prioritize "P" so let’s see what happens...
Not to defend PE's typical method of extracting revenue, but as the old punchline goes, "You knew I was a snake when you brought me home." The founder (heirs, in this case) take plenty of dough off the table from the PE firm and it should surprise no one that things will change, often radically. If the founder's legacy suffers, they themselves have bailed out with the cash and therefore contribute to the demise. Who's really the "bad guy?"
Of course, not the same if the takeover is hostile and the founder is forced out.
What's puzzling to me is why a PE firm would acquire a company that clearly had an extremely small and narrowly defined brand equity position (audiophile speakers) and then try to convert it to a lifestyle brand with broad appeal. . .huh? It's not like the name Thiel was remotely well-known outside our little circle and therefore would have null equity beyond us. Couldn't have been for market penetration--infinitesimally small. Manufacturing capacity? Don't think so. Innovation and engineering? Maybe, but tangential to their current direction at best. PEs love acquisition for phantom synergies that look good on paper. They don't know sh** about operating what they've bought but they're arrogant in their belief that they do--it's the high finance equivalent of "Hey y'all, watch this," (or "Hold my beer!").
As for customer service, it's not dead everywhere. I have personally spoken or corresponded with Richard Vandersteen, Viktor Khomenko and Conrad Mas (Vandersteen, Balanced Audio Technology and Avid). It's what I own and would be hard pressed to switch to another brand--this is based as much on their commitment and service as the gear itself.
From the Strata-gee interview and embedded photos, the "Legacy" models available on a special-order basis appear to be limited to those introduced after the sale of the company. That’s a rather fast descent! There is no mention of the Jim Thiel designs or of any commitment to the significant customer base thereof. Otherwise it's mostly market-speak and abandonment of the dealer network for direct-to-consumer sales and on-line distribution through Amazon or similar channels into the mass market. Thiel who?
I sold my Thiels a couple of years back because of a fear that this would happen (paired with a tendency to overplay them and need repairs). Unfortunately it looks like support for the legacy products is indeed disappearing. Not a disaster, but certainly a very disappointing turn of events.
There is no Thiel dealer list on the current website. When it was up it was highly inaccurate. One of my local dealers who dropped Thiel about 5 years ago was still on the list. My feeling this is going to be an online company.
Get the dealer you bought the speakers from involved. Or get a Thiel dealer SOMEWHERE involved. When you pay good money for loudspeakers like that, you deserve better from that manufacturer even if they have restructured. Good luck.... Tim
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
