The Truth About Power Cords and there "Real" Price to Performance

Act-u-ally the real point is frequency and oscillation are not synonymous. The other point you guys are missing is the audio signal in wire is not a vibration. 

audiozenology"I do find your post rude, ignorant and disrespectful and it shows you lack knowledge in this area. I really do not know why you chose to post your disrespectful, inaccurate, and inflammatory post. The AC supply VOLTAGE is 60Hz"

I am sorry to have hurt you're feelings you are obviously a pensive, thoughtful, sensitive person I can only suggest, recommend, and advice you that when you make patently false, inaccurate, misinformed statements you should anticipate and expect that other contributors hear will respond with a proper response. if you seek a "safe space" where you're feelings can be nurtured, protected, and shielded from reality then you may wish to be cautious and circumspect when promoting you're unique technical explanations that conflict with established science and engineering principals. 

In this most recent post it is NOT TRUE that AC supply voltage is 60 Hz you are confusing voltage and frequency these are two very different things and your claim, assertion, and argument reflect a a fundamental ignorance of electricity.

Clearthink,

No, I am not confused, disoriented, or misinformed, but I do find your post rude, ignorant and disrespectful and it shows you lack knowledge in this area. I really do not know why you chose to post your disrespectful, inaccurate, and inflammatory post.

The AC supply VOLTAGE is 60Hz. Current draw is a function of the load, and is not limited to the 60Hz supply voltage. If you believe that is the case, then I do not think you are qualified to make a comment on this topic. Delkal is not correct. THD (Total harmonic distortion) is a critical measurement for AC products and is the ratio of power draw harmonics (above 50 or 60Hz) related to the 50 or 60Hz primary frequency. AGAIN, it is not unusual for a linear power supply to have a THD of 30% (or more). This is not debatable. It is the case. It is well known. It is easily measured. That 30% THD means there are higher frequencies on the power line.

Is that "noise"? When looked at only from a standpoint of AC line harmonics, yes. Does that mean it is bad? Debatable. There is a reason why some amplifiers don’t recommend power filters, which would reduce harmonic distortion on the AC line.

Here is a thought exercise for you and Delkal. Can a battery only supply power at DC or will the frequency of the power draw be exclusively a factor of the load?

audiozenology"The AC supply is a voltage at 60Hz. However the frequency of the power draw, i.e. current, is a factor of the load effectively modulating the line frequency".


That is not at all what happens you are confused, disoriented, and/or grossly misinformed as to the nature of AC power in actual use and operation you should listen to "delkal" contributor he is correct.

delkal
geoffait- To get a speaker to produce sound you need an oscillating current of some frequency and AC power is distributed as an oscillating current at 60 Hz.

>>>>Huh? That’s what I just said.

..and off course this

http://www.didntknowiwantedthat.com/product/naughty-outlet-decal/

audiozenology36 posts12-15-2019 3:58pm"They both do exactly the same thing on the same circuit. I don't think you have thought this through. Of course they have the same importance."

Good plugs are off course what everything relies on, but the male plug at the end of a pc is not where I would put my money.The female walloutlet is the one that might makes the difference.
-------------------

Think again. The male is just a passive plug, just keep it clean while the female is all about how tight it wraps around the male and makes mechanic contact. 

https://www.handymanhowto.com/electrical-outlets-side-wire-versus-back-wire/

thyname
It's beginning to look like it. To the point of me starting to detest is, as only [the slayers of snake oil] use it, in every audio forum they can find.

There are members I detest, and whose comments I no longer read.

Atdavid
...the #1 lesson that an audiophile can learn is that they are susceptible to bias.

 
What I can't stand is those who say my evaluations of my system upgrades are so heavily biased as to be unreliable, or even delusional. 

Delkal,


I have been respectful to you but your attitude is poor and your knowledge worse.


The AC supply is a voltage at 60Hz. However the frequency of the power draw, i.e. current, is a factor of the load effectively modulating the line frequency. Hence you have current draw both at 60hz, and at many harmonics of 60hz, primarily odd harmonics the spectrum dependent on the load.


I will emphasize again a linear supply cannot work if it draws power only at 60hz and you are confusing supply voltage frequency with power draw frequency. The lack of knowledge is not mine, it is yours. (Note I said that it draws power 120 times per second not that is the primary spectrum of the energy draw). 


Short of a resistive load just about nothing on the AC line has low distortion. 


It would not be unusual for a linear power supply in a piece of audio equipment to be running 30% or more harmonic distortion on the AC input current. Only way to fix that is to add resistance or inductance to the AC input lines.

geoffait- To get a speaker to produce sound you need an oscillating current of some frequency and AC power is distributed as an oscillating current at 60 Hz. Do you ever wonder why a 60 Hz ground loop hum from the AC sounds exactly the same as a 60 Hz audio test tone?

AudioZenoligy- A 60 Hz signal starts out at zero volts, increases to positive voltage, decreases to 0 again then goes to negative voltages, then back to zero. This cycle happens 60 times a second (60 HZ). Linear power supplies draw on the positive swings and the negative swings. There is no power when it crosses zero. That is where you get the mistaken idea that there is any energy at 120 HZ. There isn’t. 120 Hz is just half of the 60 Hz full cycle.

Harmonics is still distortion and for power distribution and is not OK. Ever. And even with an audio signal going to your speakers harmonic distortion is only a minor component. While some distortion / harmonics can be considered OK (like the distortion in a tube amp) if your system has more than one percent you might want to consider upgrading to high fidelity.

It is ironic that many of the most vocal people in this thread do not seem to have a basic understanding of how power and audio signals work.  Further debating is pointless.

delkal,

You are confusing frequency of generation with frequency of power draw. Linear power supplies may draw power 120 times per second (rectified), but the bandwidth of what they draw is not at all limited to 60Hz but has harmonics well beyond 60Hz. If that was not the case, linear power supplies would not work. It is akin to a 60Hz square wave not being only 60Hz, but having significant energy at harmonics of 60Hz. Is it noise? ... matter of definition I guess, but it is certainly an artifact of a linear power supply. The power draw for a linear power supply will always have significant harmonic content.

A switch mode power supply on the other hand may draw power at  something approaching 60Hz, at least many attempt to.

Oscillation frequency of alternating current and voltage 🔚🔜 is not the same thing as frequency of the signal. It is a semantic argument. Just as the audio waveform does not ever travel down a single wire. There is no frequency of the signal when it travels down one wire, and in the opposite direction on the other wire. I.e., the wires are not vibratory. They are subject to external vibration, however. It’s a semantic argument. Electrical power doesn’t have a frequency. Energy doesn’t have a frequency. The audio signal is not vibrating, it’s oscillating. An any instant in time it can only be going in one direction. 🔜

Audiozenoligy
That is not true. If all they did was transmit 60Hz, then linear power supplies would not work. There is considerably energy above 60Hz.
The limitation in frequency response will be the transformer primarily.

In America all of the power grid is generated at 60 Hz. That included the 120 Volt line at your house to the ultra high voltages in the long distance transmission lines. But it all has to be at exactly 60 Hz or power gets wasted and bad things happen.
Are you mistaking Hz (cycles per second) for voltage? From the power plant voltages can be stepped up for transmission to thousands of volts (so you can use a smaller wire) but close to every house there is a step down transformer that converts it to 120 volts for home use. The only energy you get is 120 Volts at 60 Hz. That is what your components use and everything else should be considered noise.

Switching power transformers can be universal so you can plug them in to a 240 volt 50 Hz European power outlet and it still works. But it has nothing to do with the small amount of electrical interference at frequencies other than 50 Hz for Europe or 60 Hz in North America.

"it is almost like OFC, single crystal, OCC, silver, etc. does not matter"

Do those really matter....for a power cord?
The factors I listed were wire gauge, noise-cancelling geometry, shielding, and adequate plugs/iec. I would amend that and add a good wall outlet that tightly grips the plug.

delkal,

That is not true. If all they did was transmit 60Hz, then linear power supplies would not work. There is considerably energy above 60Hz.

The limitation in frequency response will be the transformer primarily.

One thing to remember about power cords is that they only have to transmit one frequency (60 Hz).  Everything else is noise.    Many manufacturers have descriptions of their power cords that sound like what you need with interconnects and speaker cables for audio.    That just makes me laugh.

And if Romex is great, it is almost like OFC, single crystal, OCC, silver, etc. does not matter.

Can't say you want low loss high frequency dielectrics in one sentence and then low frequency wire in the next. One would almost think people are just guessing and speaking in conjecture.

Mitch2-

One of the manufacturers who posts here, has said Romex would actually make a high performing power cord but it would not meet electrical codes for that purpose.

We talked about this some in the Romex to your Amp thread. here is what I posted there. It still applies here.

Electronics and power cords do not need to be UL listed. Certification is an optional process that costs $5,000-15,000 of dollars per model and is only good for 5 years. The only reason large manufacturers do this is because many retailers and contracts specify certified products only. Clearly very few (if any) boutique power cables and audio components are certified.
There is nothing wrong or illegal about solid core power cables.

Act-tu-ally, the best power cords are solid core. Audioquest Hurricane et al. Hel-loo! Always remember to respect the directionality of your power cord and it will respect you.

The reasons power cords are not made from solid core wire are safety and ease of use. Have you ever tried to bend a 12 awg wire....10 awg? I believe the safety thing is the concern that frequent bending of a single solid core wire could lead to fatigue cracking and a higher incidence of wire failure.  Romex in the wall is fixed and not subject to repeated bending.  One of the manufacturers who posts here, has said Romex would actually make a high performing power cord but it would not meet electrical codes for that purpose.

I have made a couple of 7 awg unshielded power cables using six strands of old stock WE 10 awg wire (the same stuff used by TWL in their American series). I use them from two dedicated 20A circuits (wired with 10 awg Romex) to 300 wpc Class A monoblocks and the DIY 7 awg cords sound every bit as good as expensive IsoClean or Furutech power cables I also have here.

Some day I will try the Romex thing.

I have rarely seen audiophiles with anything better than 12 awg Romex dedicated line or not.

They both do exactly the same thing on the same circuit.  I don't think you have thought this through. Of course they have the same importance.

Good plugs are off course what everything relies on, but the male plug at the end of a pc is not where I would put my money.The female walloutlet is the one that might makes the difference.

 The pc is the powersupplys main arteia, it`s what it "sees" into and sucks it`s power from. Off course you`ll need a adequate supply from your main box but I assume every serious audiophile is past that level

A large gauge power cord does not change what's in the wall between the panel and your outlet, so if not upgraded large grade on line/neutral does not do a lot.


I think your arguments for solid core are just conjecture. I don't think there is any good engineering or listening to back that up.

Well  the gauge is crucial all the way, and not only the gauge, it must be solid conductors to get a clean dynamic signal. A problem or challenge here is the fact that allmost no audio-designers are aware of this and they seems to design the layouts based on max continous power while they should multiply with 10 (yeah!) not to risk limiting dynamic output.

Good plugs are off course what everything relies on, but the male plug at the end of a pc is not where I would put my money.The female walloutlet is the one that might makes the difference. 

@unfairlane 

If you want to wake up your Bryston, give it a minimum 12awg solid core pc

Are we back to the gauge being the primary factor affecting power cable performance on amplifiers?  I have a hard time getting away from wire gauge, noise-cancelling geometry, shielding, and adequate plugs/iec being the most important aspects affecting PC performance.  All the other stuff espoused by the manufacturers of expensive cables seems relatively benign in comparison. 

Compared to the transformer itself, diode, etc. it has not much effect inline electrically. Other issues at hand perhaps, but actual conduction of electricity not so much. Many high end power cords are effectively 12awg or less.

turnbowm72 posts11-14-2019 8:11pm"I have investigated cables for many years and power cable improvement seems differ with the component to which they are attached.
- components with "less-capable" power supplies tend to exhibit more of an improvement
- compared to the same cable when used on amps with massive power supplies, which tend to exhibit less of an improvement"

Williewonka,

That ihas been my experience as well. I have a Bryston Int. Amp that doesn't seem to care what PC I use to feed it with. Other Bryston Amp owners have voiced the same experience. Robustness in power supply design is an important factor.
-------------------


Some but not too much thruth in this. The problem here as with other hifi-cables is that they mostly are junk. Mybe a bit better than a standard cable but not much. If you want to wake up your Bryston, give it a minimum 12awg solid core pc

The power cord is the major artery for the power supply, that`s why the last piece of cable is so crucial. 

cd318, this was a nice exchange of opinion and thought, and I also appreciate your comments. 

For your enjoyment, Jack is still doing his Audio Beatnik thing on his own now. If you do a search for Audio Beatnik you will find him. 

@douglas_schroeder ,  "But, the audiophile public once in a while needs to see that there are good people trying to serve them (And, of course, serving themselves by involvement with the gear; that's obvious) and are not duplicitous.  :)"

Agreed. There are many good people who are genuinely trying to help the audiophile public. 

The trouble is that there also seems to be no shortage of those who aren't. 

Anyway, thanks for your considered reply and no hard feelings - best of luck with your writing. It's been a few years since I last checked out dagogo.com but I do still remember enjoying reading Jack Roberts' Beatnik Column.

 I came to discover quite a few things, like how to make 100% inaudible/lossless IC`s, speakercables, spdif coax & powercord

If its inaudible, wouldn't that be a 100% loss?

mitch22,087 posts12-09-2019 4:51pm@unfairlane
Just curious, which single wire, solid core, 9 awg cable/wire do you use for speaker cables?
On the power side of things, you basically described Romex, which some well-regarded folks actually believe would make a good power cord..

I`ve spendt years developing a 4-way speaker system and it has never been singlewired but if I had to use just one set of wires I would still use our norwegian Nexan-made pfsp standard romex-equivalent. 
9awg is not enough though to feed a grown woofer, give it 7awg* and your amp will show it`s full potential, assuming it`s feed through solid core pc`s, no filters.
Back in those days I came to discover quite a few things, like how to make 100% inaudible/lossless IC`s, speakercables, spdif coax & powercords. Took me some years and endless testing to comprehend what I`ve stumbeled over. Sometimes the truth is so simple it`s taken for a joke..

*   https://www.hifisound.de/de/Lautsprecher-Selbstbau/Frequenzweichen-Bauteile/Eisenkern/Mundorf-Null-OHM-Spule-N-390.html

cd318, no, I didn't aim the comment at you, it just happened to follow yours. It was meant as commentary on the entire thread. 

In response, one time as I am trying to learn not to get entangled in extended arguments/debates in regard to cabling - I find them fairly unproductive, and you may agree on that point! :) Anyway, in response, I think you would be able to find several reputable cable manufacturers who make claims about their cables' performance, and some that show it with graphs, measurements, etc. Whether you choose to believe those charts/measurments is another question. I have found cause over the years to question some of those graphs; one company in particular I feel used soft data to impress those who didn't look too closely. So, there is some truth to your position. However, I think it is reaching to condemn all cable makers as nefarious. 

I think your skepticism bias is showing again, as I have no connection to dealer and advertiser profits. I have zero involvement with the business side of reviewing. That is by choice, as I do not have a taste for the politics of audiophilia - I want nothing to do with it. I have an ideal situation wherein I review and have contact with dealers, manufacturers, other reviewers, and the publisher purely, solely for the purposes of my writing. I blissfully have nothing to do with the publication aside from the words I submit. I have never had any involvement in advertising in any respect. I thank God that I do not have to deal with any of that! It might be enough to drive me from reviewing, and I mean that literally. 

If you wish to damn me for having an accommodation when I do purchase a reviewed item, then so be it. I have said previously that as I am unpaid, and basically review for the joy and love of writing as well as building systems (Which is why I write approx. 4-5 times as many reviews as typical reviewers), because my time investment (an average of 30 hours per review considering communication, handling of logistics, setting up systems, and the writing process) would make for a paltry hourly wage. The discount I get in reviewing does not make up for the inordinate time I have spent writing reviews. That is not typical, so perhaps your skepticism of me and painting me with a broad brush with conceptions of what I am like as a reviewer is a bit off the mark. 

There are enough shenanigans by some, and loopholes in reviewing that I get your displeasure with it. I used to be the same before becoming a reviewer; I trusted none of them. No one would/could change my opinion. It's funny how transitioning to a different role (from audiophile hobbyist to reviewer) changes one's perspective. Now I am seen as one of "them", the distrusted, the seemingly corrupt, those in bed with the dealers and manufacturers. No, my friend, it's not true. The reality is far different than you think.  

I have not shared this as a rant, or as a plea for pity (Because I'm so hard done by as a reviewer, right? - LOL), because truth be known, I do not care terribly whether you change your opinion. But, the audiophile public once in a while needs to see that there are good people trying to serve them (And, of course, serving themselves by involvement with the gear; that's obvious) and are not duplicitous.  :) 

@douglas_schroeder , "Got bias?"

If you meant me, then the answer is a definite yes! I do have a strong bias against fraudulent cable insinuations. (Let’s not call them claims - no manufacturer/seller would dare).

The same way I presume that you have a strong bias for big dealer/adviser profits.

@unfairlane
Just curious, which single wire, solid core, 9 awg cable/wire do you use for speaker cables?
On the power side of things, you basically described Romex, which some well-regarded folks actually believe would make a good power cord.

unfairlane / Thanks for your opinion

cd318 / No "Paranoid Cableitus" here. Great sound reproduction though

Got bias? 

I wonder whether only audiophiles are susceptible to Paranoid Cableitus?

Would it be also possible to sell $1000+ RJ11/ethernet/router power cables too?

Probably not as virtually everyone already understands that the actual broadband supply (and to a lesser extent) the kilometres of cabling to your home are far far more important than whatever’s cabling the last metre or so.

What’s that I can hear being said?

Something about a sow’s ear and a silk purse?

Drat, and double drat!
Foiled again!

Oh well, it’s back to the power of suggestion again.

I wonder what a Tom Cruise or Taylor Swift cable endorsement would cost....?
Outside budget you say? Then affordable non committal fancy marketing will have to do.

Oh how I long for the days when all it took was a semi undressed beauty to sell your stuff...

boxer123,472 posts11-28-2019 6:56am"Question? In your humble opinion, what is the best Power Cord and what do you like about them from prices that range:"

$50-$100 / None
$200-300 / Oyaide (DIY)
$400-500 / Cerious
$600-$1000 / Acoustic Revive
>$1000 / Jena Labs

Obviously I haven't tries all cables available but these are the ones I've left in my system for any given time due to sound quality. It goes without saying that this is only my opinion. Yours will vary.  "

---------------------------

Not true. The best powercord is the one that does less harm to the electric power/signal. No conductor can improve anything, even if they`re priced out of this world. 

The only way to avoid any kind of detoriation is to use single solid core conductors, on primary site as well as on the secondary site.(=speakercables)
12awg is a minimum on the primary site (a poweramp might need moore) while 9awg is a minimum to avoid dynamic loss on the secondary site. (yep, nothing less)

I know this is not what your local stereo-priest tells but it is the thruth. 

@samuel03 : +1

I am sure some manufacturers are crooks, and surely some audiophiles are gullible and paranoid. I, for one, hear most of the differences and while acknowledging some superior products, I can’t afford, to be more exact do not want to spend that much money on, many of them. I am content with what I have because I have taken pain to put together my system within the budget I feel comfortable with and it is of one good synergy. I can’t talk about the other makers since I don’t know them firsthand, however I wouldn’t consider my speaker builder unethical just because his cables are expensive. On the contrary, I appreciate his passion in his hobby/business. And I won’t waste my time to persuade anyone who believe differently. There are always different opinions on any subject and even name-calling. So be it.

Oh well ,..lol 

@in_shore

"There’s not much close to the confiscatory pricing of lengths of wire in this hobby except for perhaps streamers and server’s , basically computer parts in an attractive looking box.

I love these threads and if I were in the audiophile business selling lengths of proprietary designed wire would be my first choice and my 2nd would be streamers and servers at eye popping esoteric prices of course..."


Yeah, that would be the easy way to do it - if we had no scruples of course.

Once upon a time Noel Lee (Monster Cables) transformed himself into an almost overnight millionaire with little more than the power of suggestion - ie thicker = better.

Naturally enough many since have sought to follow in his footsteps.

However since those days of poor DIN plugs, crudely twisted wire extensions, and the cheapest possible bell wire are over, a different approach must be found.

In this era of readily available high purity oxygen-free copper, suggestion just won’t hack it anymore. Audiophiles may be gullible but not that gullible.

And so a better weapon must be found, and it has been.

Paranoia.

In particular the widespread attempt to feed concerns over electromagnetic / radio interference (4G/5G, smartphones etc) has now become the weapon of choice to induce audiophile paranoia.

As advertisers have long known, humans are always vulnerable to paranoia.

More importantly they will pay good money to be relieved of it.

The issue of whether the most expensive cables (power, loudspeaker or interconnect, take your pick) that money can buy today actually sound any better than those from the mid-1970s is not something any cable vendor would dare to claim.

They simply dare not propagate such falsehood.

For obvious reasons.

@in_shore, on second thoughts, if you want to write the blurb I'll find a supplier or vice versa...

The guy I mentioned earlier about, for instance, uses 31 different small conductors in his brand of interconnect cables, and checks the direction of each. To come up with the 31 combo in the first place is a lot of work, then check the direction of each, most of which are not specified by the manufacturers? If one of 31 is in the wrong direction, it messes with the sound quality. He demonstrated it to me and I agreed with him. So it is not that simple, like different length, etc. And fyi, the length of power cord especially changes the sound.

There’s not much close to the confiscatory pricing of lengths of wire in this hobby except for perhaps streamers and server’s , basically computer parts in an attractive looking box.

I love these threads and if I were in the audiophile business selling lengths of proprietary designed wire would be my first choice and my 2nd would be streamers and servers at eye popping esoteric prices of course...

I know a guy (who made my living room speakers) who has spent years perfecting his brand of power cord.

I am glad the power cord has no feeling :-)

I know a guy (who made my living room speakers) who has spent years perfecting his brand of power cord. Knowing, if superficially, how much time and effort he has put in the project and how many trial and error he has gone through, I can’t say he is overcharging. It is not just the cost of the material plus some labor cost.