Do I detect a budding Audiogon bromance? 👯♂️
The Truth About Power Cords and there "Real" Price to Performance
This is a journey through real life experiences from you to everyone that cares to educate themselves. I must admit that I was not a believer in power cords and how they affect sound in your system. I from the camp that believed that the speaker provided 75% of the sound signature then your source then components but never the power cord. Until that magic day I along with another highly acclaimed AudioGoner who I will keep anatomist ran through a few cables in quite a few different systems and was "WOWED" at what I heard. That being said cable I know that I am not the only believer and that is why there are so many power cord/cable companies out there that range from $50 to 20-30 thousand dollars and above. So I like most of you have to scratch my head and ask where do I begin what brand and product and what should i really pay for it?
The purpose of this discussion to get some honest feed back on Price to Performance from you the end user to us here in the community.
Please fire away!
The purpose of this discussion to get some honest feed back on Price to Performance from you the end user to us here in the community.
Please fire away!
472 responses Add your response
Many folks who test cables professionally, i.e, magazine reviewers, et al, don’t know HOW to test cables. They simply don’t know all the variables. Is that being too harsh? Furthermore, audio reviewers/editors usually won’t publish bad reviews of any product including cables because they don’t wish to kill a small growing company. Duh! |
audiozenology" Show me a cable with bad professional reviews..." Velloman cables have gotten some bad reviews in my country but that makes no difference at all they are really excellent cables and widely misunderstood by those like you who claim a "moral authority" to instruct others on the design, application, and use of products intended for use in a Music Reproduction System. |
unfairlaneThe thing I find most annoying here is the arrogance of some members. Especially when comparing DIY products against companies’ products who invest so much into developing and improving their product, and are continually doing so. And reviewers? Surely they have not been fooled, as you so blatantly accuse others of being. I have no doubt some DIY cables are indeed very good value. However, when I spend money, I’m looking for better than most of these can provide. Audience has a very good reputation, and very good reviews. |
I have been interested in this topic but have been put off by some of the comments on this thread. It seems to me that there are three different positions displayed: 1. I didn't expect it to make a difference, but it did. Now I'd like to share with others and talk about it and understand why. 2. It can't make a difference (accompanied by an apparent unwillingness to try it) and those who think so are fooling themselves. 3. Agnostic - don't know or not sure. Maybe curious. I can say this - I am now powering my system off of a lead-acid battery generator that puts out a perfect 60 Hz sine wave. I'm using stock power cords. The transformation in my system is roughly equivalent to a major power amp or preamp upgrade. |
For me it makes no sense to buy "costly" or even relatively costly power cord before addressing all the other factors: cleaning the electrical grid of house and room, Adressing the problem of mechanical resonance and vibrations, an underestimated one, Treatment of the room and of speakers... and even the search for the right source gear, or amplifier and speakers is mandatory in the first place because the power cord will not act the same in a different audio grid... There is controversy with this subject, and all those in favor of only cheap cords, and those who vouch with costly one, are nor wrong neither right, this is their experience in a totally specific environment... The power cord is the last think to buy like costly cables for your speakers or dac and amplifier... Choose first the right gear for you, after that makes the three problems I speak of rightly answered... After that spend money on cables and cords ( not too much tough) the reason is the impact of cable and cords is less , way less, than the right answers to all the other problems and choices...My best to all... |
JerryBJI know exactly what you mean. The cables I've bought in the last year are hopefully my last, with retirement a wee way away, but certainly a factor. The Audience Au24SX are certainly my end interconnects. My ATC SCM19v2 are my 'end game' speakers. Top quality stuff. Don't let the media / marketing shills or the mega rich (who want to feel special) try and convince you anything is lacking. If you are happy with them enjoy! This is what price to performance in audio boils down to. Marketers that want to sell a dream at outrageous prices. And the people with more money than brains that want to make you feel humble and try and justify their purchase. |
badger_erich I know exactly what you mean. The cables I've bought in the last year are hopefully my last, with retirement a wee way away, but certainly a factor. The Audience Au24SX are certainly my end interconnects. My ATC SCM19v2 are my 'end game' speakers. Locally made Mad Scientist power cables are my last as well. |
" Any actual difference the new PC could/would make will be subtle " - teoretically yeah but it is not true. Most hifi powercables are just bling though, that`s correct. Expensive plugs does not improve anything. But again; try solid core pc`s. Even a recording-enginer should be able to hear the imroved dymamics and cleaned up soundstage. Lesson: to hear a differnce there has to be a difference. " Second, audio memory is extremely perishable.." - that`s an urban legend. Our memory here will depend a lot on our skill-level, a skilled listener will understand and get a lot moore information out of any sample. Imagine you`re on a jungle-safari for the first time. It`s your first night out in the jungle, and you can hear so many strange sounds while you`re lying in the tent trying to sleep. Your local guide on the other hand, he`s asleep allready, not worrying at all because he knows every sound and what they mean. But be shure, one "wrong" sound and he will be awake. That`s why he is still alive. Just as we can remember a smell or a taste we can allso remember sound-experience. For as long as we live. " And doing that (A/B switching) to test a power cord is nearly impossible for a home audiophile.." Now you`re beeing funny. Ever tryed this? Well it will off course depend on your skill-level AND the actual powercords, if there really is any difference. As a norwegian I`m also familiar with this little trick known as "turn the net-phase". Since our ac-plugs can be turned 180 degrees we do this. And wow, it makes a difference. First of all to 3D and bass-timing/weight. This off course confuses less skilled listeners but are easy as **** for an old geek. |
audiozen: Power Cord magic believers will scoff at science because all that matters is what their ears tell them. Not what they hear, but what their ears tell them. They purchase a $1000.00 power cord; get behind their "stack" and replace the cord. Takes about 15 minutes. Then they listen and Holy Jesus!!! It is jaw droppingly better....absolutely game changing. You hear this over and over! Two things. Any actual difference the new PC could/would make will be subtle. Any reasonable audiophile knows that's true. Second, audio memory is extremely perishable. In the 15 min it took to change the PC, your cranial encased audio processing/memory will be unable to recall an accurate audio reference for comparison with the new PC's performance. Instantaneous switching back and forth (while not knowing which is which) is the only way to compare subtle differences. And doing that (A/B switching) to test a power cord is nearly impossible for a home audiophile. A recording engineer I know did, however, set up a blind A/B test pitting a $1.50 Benchmark power cord (that they recommend) vs a $3000.00 IEC cord in his studio. He used two Benchmark DAC 2s set up so that a single button push would switch between the two. The listening group were professional audio engineers that worked in the building (including a Grammy winner). None could tell any difference. No one heard any fidelity change. We all want to have our gear sound better, but if I ranked things that were likely to make any improvement, power cords would be pretty much on the bottom...right above Geoff's green pens. Top three are almost always ranked as the quality of the recording, the acoustic environment and speakers. I'll now push my keyboard away and stand by for clearthunk's veiled insults. |
NO, That is not what it means at all. Poor power factor does not indicate that power was wasted. It simply means that Voltage and Current are not in phase. The only thing "wasted" is generation capability and distribution capability, and a bit higher resistive losses due to higher peak currents and hence higher RMS currents for a given power delivery resulting in higher losses in the distribution system (i.e. wires). delkal59 posts12-16-2019 3:50pm280% THD? That’s a lot of THD! 😩 |
Simple Question delkal: What is the frequency of the power drawn by a battery? Is it DC or is it entirely load dependent? Keep in mind there are 0 frequencies in a Battery. It’s all DC. "Voltage" is only the potential to do work. The voltage is oscillating in amplitude at 60Hz. But unless you draw current there is no "power". Second Simple Question: What will happen if a basic linear power supply draws power with a frequency spectrum of only 60Hz or 50Hz? .... hint, the answer is it will not work and the output will just be a 120Hz half sine wave. You do realize when you admit that THD on an AC line is an actual thing that a) You are admitting power is NOT delivered at only 60Hz, AND b) That power not being delivered at only 60Hz is ESSENTIAL for operation of a linear power voltage. There is so much fundamentally wrong with what you have written that I don’t even know where to start. Let’s start with .... "But (again) everything other than the 60 Hz signal is considered distortion and is not used for any work."... This is not remotely right. The supplied AC is just a 60Hz oscillating voltage. Without current, nothing happens and that is defined by the load (or interaction of the supply and the load). Hence, for a linear power supply to work, the frequency spectrum of the delivered power, ---- which is what is required to make it work ---- cannot be only the line frequency. You are also confusing, at some or many levels, the impacts of THD and power factor. THD is not an indication of how much real power is delivered. Power Factor indicates this. I can create a load with a very low THD, but poor power factor. I only need to phase-shift the current. Figure 7 Harmonics of current flowing into a linear power supply shows what the power looks like flowing in to the AC/DC converter. The harmonics you see were not in the original clean 60 Hz power supply but they were generated by the AC/DC converter and fed back to the grid polluting it. This caused a lot of distortion in the current and causes 280% THD. But (again) everything other than the 60 Hz signal is considered distortion and is not used for any work. The power factor for this AC/DC converter is only 0.33 showing the harmonics are just wasted power. Approximately 70% of the power you feed in is wasted and gets sent back to the grid as harmonics polluting the rest of your (and your neighbors) power. |
It is strange dynaquest4 how some people want to show their lack of knowledge. I guess I am just here to help them .. probably would have been smart for them to find out how I spent a good part of my career. Oh well. Read this article again. It proves you still have it totally wrong about THD. Figure 1 shows a 60 Hz sine wave under a resistive load. The voltage swings from positive to negative and the current (i ac) tracks it. This has a power factor of one. That means you don’t waste any power. 100% of the power you put in can be used for "work". There is also no noise / harmonics being fed back to the grid so it won’t pollute the power grid with noise. Figure 6 shows how a linear power supply works. It is a non-linear load. The 60 Hz voltage still goes up and down but the current (i ac) is drawn mostly at the peaks. This distorts the current and generates harmonics that are fed back into the grid (back to the plug). Figure 7 Harmonics of current flowing into a linear power supply shows what the power looks like flowing in to the AC/DC converter. The harmonics you see were not in the original clean 60 Hz power supply but they were generated by the AC/DC converter and fed back to the grid polluting it. This caused a lot of distortion in the current and causes 280% THD. But (again) everything other than the 60 Hz signal is considered distortion and is not used for any work. The power factor for this AC/DC converter is only 0.33 showing the harmonics are just wasted power. Approximately 70% of the power you feed in is wasted and gets sent back to the grid as harmonics polluting the rest of your (and your neighbors) power. If you have too many non linear loads on a grid this distortion can be a big problem to other electronics (look it up). One thing they can do is make transformers buzz and overheat. This distortion is what you want to filter out by using a power cord. Or even better a power conditioner that removes the harmonics and feeds your system a clean 60 Hz sine wave. |
Strange, the person who wrote this does not appear to have any issues with the command of the English language .... well unless they did not write it? clearthink |
dynaquest4414 posts12-16-2019 2:07pmaudiozen: Talking or debating with clearthink is like talking politics with the other party. No one changes their mind but everybody ends up pissed off. Clearthink clearly thinks there is always only one answer...his. To debate with him (or Geoff) is pointless. Pretty much nailed it dynaquest4. Some people confuse ignorance with enlightenment. I wish it was not as common as it is. |
audiozenology"...would have been smart for them to find out how I spent a good part of my career.’ Why don’t you tell us about your "career"? Are you from the advertising end of the industry serving as a marketing, advertising, and promotional consultant that is what it sounds like simply linking to "authoritative" links will not establish you as knowledgeable, expert, or informed remember there are many experts here so if you do not want to have you’re feelings hurt again be careful how you explain "facts" and "science". |
It is strange dynaquest4 how some people want to show their lack of knowledge. I guess I am just here to help them .. probably would have been smart for them to find out how I spent a good part of my career. Oh well. https://www.allaboutcircuits.com/technical-articles/understanding-thd-total-harmonic-distortion-in-p... https://www.ijser.org/paper/Analysis-of-power-Quality-in-power-Supplies.html |
jerrybj"The pitfalls of being a teacher." No thank you I am always learning your language and appreciate your help and reminders! |
audiozenology"You’re : you are Your: possessive" Thank you English is not my first language and I sometimes make mistakes it is very difficult language to master! Mostly I am "conversational" in English but electricity is an international language so it is easy to see where your knowledge gaps are unless I misunderstand your English which does not seem to be the the actual case. |
audiozenology"I do find it a bit weird they insist on repeatedly showing their ignorance about basic EE, even illustrating a knowledge level lower than a first year technician let alone a first year EE student. Oh well, I am only providing the space, they are shouting at the top of their lungs." You are still very new hear you will find your way over time and you seem to be smart so I think you will learn as you go there are many experts here to learn from!! Do not let you're feelings be hurt because you have made mistakes in your claims, assertions, or theories it is not personal it is science and engineering. |
dynaquest4 To debate with him (or Geoff) is pointless. >>>>For you that is especially true. Hey, that rhymes! 🤗 |
dynaquest4, I had quickly come to one of those conclusions and I am rapidly reaching the other. This had started out respectfully with delkal, but unfortunately someone felt a need to "puff their chest". I don’t have any illusions they understand the topic or even care to. It is simply attention seeking. It is not an isolated event. I do find it a bit weird they insist on repeatedly showing their ignorance about basic EE, even illustrating a knowledge level lower than a first year technician let alone a first year EE student. Oh well, I am only providing the space, they are shouting at the top of their lungs. |
audiozenology"If you are going to be arrogant, pedantic, and rude, you better invest the time first to ensure you are not erroneous, ignorant, and misguided." I understand that you’re feelings are hurt, that you’re ego is bruised, and that you’re self-image as an expert, authority, and arbiter of truth has been tarnished, damaged, and diminished and yet I congratulate you for stepping out of you’re "safe space" and venturing to where others can help you question, explore, and learn. Knowledge will come to you over time and I encourage you to continue you’re efforts. I also encourage you to buy or acquire from you’re local library an introductory to basic electricity so that you can understand Ohm’s law and things like that, much of which is very simple! The complicated things come later but the best approach is to take one step at a time. Don’t give up you can do it! You are still very new hear to this group so time is on you’re side! |
If you are going to be arrogant, pedantic, and rude, you better invest the time first to ensure you are not erroneous, ignorant, and misguided. The voltage of the AC supply is a 60Hz sine wave. Your attempt at pedantictry is but a strawman. One has to wonder why you have to resort to a strawman as opposed to addressing the rest of my argument.Clearthink, would you like to try again, to show that you do not understand that the bandwidth of the power delivery to a linear power supply includes harmonics (typically odd harmonics), well above the primary frequency of the AC supply, i.e. there will be significant harmonics at 180, 300, 420, 540, etc. .... and that the sum of those harmonics will be significant, i.e. 30% of the primary is not unusual. Further, would you like to illustrate how the typical linear power supply would operate if the only frequency of power delivery was 60Hz? I can wait. Why don't you draw it for yourself. Hint, if the only frequency of power delivery is 60Hz, then the current waveform must also be a nice perfect 60Hz sine wave. |
geoffkait"frequency and oscillation are not synonymous." This is very true and valid of course but there are those in this forum who speculate how electricity works based on "feelings" and "what seems to be true" yet they lack the knowledge, experience, and understanding of the fundamental basics and elemental principals that apply and there real problem is that when you correct they're confusion and misinformation their so badly hurt in the "ego" that they cannot formulate, express, and convey a rational response we have an entire generation or more that is only able to function in a "safe space." |