Hello guakus: I’ve been at this audio thing for 53 years, since I built a Dyna70 and a Dyna PAS from kits at the age of 14, when I was a member of that lumpen proletariat that the apply named dadork rather too readily and self-revealingly takes comfort in mocking and sneering at. To him I say no, you are wrong, there are mountains of studies about how the structure of our economic system has increasingly constrained mobility in the U.S., some studies even from conservative think tanks (though I highly recommend that he read Thomas Piketty’s Capital in the 21st Century, and Capital and Ideology), but I suspect he will demonstrate the same inertia towards educating himself on the issue that he accuses the proletariat of displaying with regard to upward mobility. But I digress. Since I was 14, I have made improvements to the system. They are few and far between, chosen to enhance a system that is specifically committed to analog tube sound, with economy in mind. Few and far between does not mean that I haven’t taken the time to audition many, many components, some costing far more than what I finally ended up with. I went through auditioning exercises with cables that cost up to $2K. Go to https://www.theaudioatticvinylsundays.com/aboutto see a listing of the components in my current setup. By far, the biggest improvement to my system was the one I made 3 years ago: building a room with a gabled ceiling that is covered with 6” to 17” of rockwool and burlap, and finally figuring out where that sub belongs. By far, the components with the least impact were speaker cables and interconnects. Note that I don’t even bother to include mention of them on the About page. And I don’t really care, at the end, what kind of science went into the cables. I worked in Pharma advertising for over two decades, and in doing so I got to see how tens of millions of dollars can be poured into products that ultimately don’t perform as well as designed, or that fail altogether. I think somebody said show me the beef. I now finally have my system pretty much where I have wanted it for these 53 years (sadly, when my hearing goes up only to 13 or 14Khz instead of 17 or 18Khz, 😢). No, I’m just not gonna pay a lotta money for that cable. I don’t need to call them snake oil to guild the lilly around my decision (not that there’s anything wrong with that, and not that the folks doing so shouldn’t be taken seriously), the decision still stands, and speaks for itself, as it has for decades. Until when or if we evolve beyond our capitalist society, people are free to spend the dollars that they acquire as they wish. Full stop. regards all. |
I don’t know? Sounds like snake oil to me! 😏 |
What I don't understand is why some enterprising company hasn't started making those woven mesh coverings that fit over cables with the designs of actual snake markings on them. Seems like a natural fit. |
OK, lets not talk about using "snake oil" to describe this subjective phenomenon - but use the scientifically correct term of "placebo effect". I maintain that placebo controlled double blind studies on these expensive cables are the only way to truly verify their superiority over ordinary quality cables. If I spent more than $2000 on a set of "expensive" speaker cables - would I really be able to properly assess their superiority over my previous $50 set of 12 gauge, copper cables that sounded just fine to me - until I succumbed to a slick "sales pitch" on audiogon? Scientific studies of the placebo effect verify that such subjective comparisons are often futile. Allowing for the "placebo effect" is most often utilized in the medical field - but the exact same principles can apply to other comparative areas, when subjectivity plays a commanding role. https://www.verywellmind.com/what-is-the-placebo-effect-2795466So, "feeling good" about an expensive, great looking, beautifully packaged cable purchase has a high probability of affecting our final judgement of the sound quality resulting from that purchase. Furthermore, the comments of some audiogon contributors to this discussion about sound "improvements" resulting from expensive cable "break in" are further evidence of the "placebo effect" at work here. Rigorous science tells us that low voltage current flowing thru any audio cable cannot change any of the physical or metallurgical characteristics of that cable over time. No one who spent $2000 on a set of "glitzy" cables would want to admit that they spent $1950 more than they needed to for this purchase! Let logic, science and engineering knowledge guide us in making choices about our audio purchases and other important life decisions! |
@vinylguy2016
Well, since we’re throwing around psychological terms, then let’s go with nay-sayers having cognitive bias. Using measurement tools that were never designed to test quality of signal and generating any graph they want to support their point of view and calling it, "science."
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The significant impact of the "placebo effect" on human reactions has been thoroughly studied and documented. This has nothing to do with "measurement tools" - but on the anticipatory changes to the brain that affect the nature of subjective judgements a person may make.
The common audiophile belief that audio cables are improved by a "break in" period is an example of subjective judgements that have no scientific or logical basis whatsoever. Pointing this out is a matter of pure fact, not "cognitive bias"!
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vinylguy2016... lets not talk about using "snake oil" to describe this subjective phenomenon - but use the scientifically correct term of "placebo effect"... This is circular reasoning a.k.a. "begging the question." You don’t know if this "subjective phenomenon" is "placebo effect" or something else. In fact, it is almost certainly not "placebo effect." Just as placebo effect will not cure cancer, neither will it provide lasting results in an audio system. The notion that placebo effect results because of the higher price of a cable is also a misguided argument. Many an audiophile believed cables could make no sonic difference - until they actually listened and heard it for themselves. In those instances, placebo effect would have resulted in hearing no difference at all. Many of us started of as skeptics and had to be convinced through listening that some things make a difference. Others simply cling to their beliefs and incomplete knowledge. |
@vinylguy2016Do you believe you could hear difference between $3 cheapo aluminum conductor, tin plated connector cable and your $50 cable in double blind test? And did you in fact conduct such a test? Assuming you did and $50 cable came out ahead, what aspect of this cable's design or materials caused this sound improvement? And assuming you do credit design or materials or both as causing this sound improvement, why would you assume your $50 cable couldn't be improved upon by another cable's different design and/or materials used? Have you actually done double blind testing of your cable vs. any number of other cables?
As for cognitive bias, you certainly seem to have plenty, must feel good to know $50 cables sound as good or better than all the high priced illusions or delusions we buy into.
By the way, I don't proscribe to the pricier the better belief system. I make my own cables, and they deliver quality sound. I don't rate them on some simplified, objectified linear scale of best to worse. To believe our mind/ear complexity can be measured by presently available equipment designed by today's limited knowledge is laughable. Cognitive bias and placebo effects barely touch on the complexity of our sense of hearing and evaluations of sound quality. Double blind testing for audio quality using short segments of music is liable to so many variables, very insubstantial evidence.
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cleeds, vinyl guy’s reasoning is sound. |
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@ mitch2
Thx!
Come back in February. I might have a good running start on having all 5,500 there by then.
Not all with the summaries of course 😆 |
@vinylguy2016
You’re using a broad judgemental opinion to simplify a complex discussion. That’s also a typical human psychological trait. This concept where humans feel the need to label and compartmentalize everything in order to simplify one’s surroundings because it’s easier.
Also, if you’re going to wax psychological human traits, there is plenty of studies that qualify the idea that some humans simply can’t hear certain sounds. Their brain isn’t wired in a way that allows them to hear differences between certain vowel sounds. Your overly generalized argument can be just as easily turned against you. I posit that nay-sayers lack the brain processes required to articulate any changes and nuance in sound quality. Thus they aren’t able to "hear" the difference and they immediately assume the opposing argument is flawed. They seek any evidence they can find to support their opinion; even if that evidence isn’t acquired through scientific method, peer reviewed or contain any control to cross-reference the results, and without any real tools to properly test for the quality of sound.
Your side keeps asking for proof, but your side is just as incapable of providing proof. IN fact, I don’t see where it’s our side that has to prove anything. If I say, "This plate of tacos is delicious and must be the best taco ever made!" I would not be held to account to prove that it is the most delicious because "delicious" is subjective. There is no test that can be performed to determine whether that taco is "delicious." The only way anyone can "test" for it, is to have a control. An EQUALLY agreed upon control. So, a taco that *ALL* sides agrees is delicious and thus any new taco tested will be tested against the agreed upon control. Then those results will be peer reviewed. Then you would have a solid decision.
This is the significant issue nay-sayers have. They lack the drive and resources to commit to a true test. There has to be a control system. An agreed upon system that ALL sides accept as the control. So anyone who wants to decide whether cables make a difference, or burn in is real, has to HAVE that exact system. You can make use of all that electrical testing equipment by verifying that the power requirements of any socket, power distributor, or power strip meets the same control variables set forth and agreed upon.
Care to do that? Somehow, I doubt it. I find it amusing that ANY TIME this idea is brought up and folks are willing to PAY for it and support it, document it, and willing to settle this argument...the nay-sayers offer up a defensive excuse and leave the table. It’s almost as if they NEED this argument to continue. They don’t want it settled; it’s too much fun for them.
Not to poke the hornets nest, but a certain nay-sayer "audiophile" was offered such a chance from a reputable "Snake Oil" brand and he turned it down. They would have shipped all his equipment to a neutral location, paid all expenses, rent and pay for a camera crew, and actually pay this person cash for their consulting. That person still offered up excuses and thus the ultimate test was washed.
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Why do you care what I spend my money on for my system? Why does it get you so worked up that you have to tell me that I don't really hear what I am hearing? If I feel like buying goofy looking cables, or anti-gravity isolation bases, or applying some high tech goop onto the connectors, or fuses named after colors in the rainbow, why do you care? And you don't get to use the excuse "I am just trying to keep people from wasting their money....blah blah blah..."
Cheers! |
Right on femoore12. I think this whole discussion about snake oil is based upon one guy wanting to exert control over others because he possibly lacks control in other areas of his own life. I unfortunately went through this same tawdry pooh party on another forum when I expressed my satisfaction that putting a network switch and an Ethernet filter between my router and music server was making the music sound a little better. And OMG did the cable and upgrade deniers attack like a school of piranhas after a piece of bloody red meat thrown into a river. Well have you tried it I asked. No. Don’t need to was the choruses reply. Of course they say that they’re engineers of some sort, been in the business forever, and are DIY people who know all about 1’s and 0’s, and that I’m just another dupe who’s been conned. Man it gets tedious and altogether excessively annoying. What happened to the days when you could just describe the system that you had put together, say whether you liked what you heard or not, and ask other folks if they had had a similar or different experience without being personally attacked for the choices that you’ve made using your own money?
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@adasdad
"
Well have you tried it I asked. No.
"
^^^^
Therein lies the true quandary. How can they assert with confidence that they are correct when they themselves haven't even attempted to experience it?
I want to state for the record that a common excuse being used in this thread by the nay-sayers, is the concept that $50 is the fine line between "nothing can be better than this" and anything above is "Snake Oil." If I asked my wife, she'd say, "$50 is still too much!" Witness the hypocrisy that they quantify $50 being the epitome of perfect, but can turn around and say that if you didn't spend over $1000 on your stereo equipment, it couldn't possibly be any good. LoL!!!!
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That lion will eat you, "have you tried it"???? no!!!
There's the difference, between "snake oil" and "fact". |
@georgehifi
Straw man. Not an equitable argument. No one is asking anyone to hurt themselves physically.
Try again?
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Hi All:
If I heard a logical, rational explanation of the widely held claim amongst the "super" cable lovers that audio cables need to "break in" to sound their best - then I might reassess my skepticism regarding cables priced in the thousands!
As an engineering graduate, I cannot fathom how a low voltage audio signal could improve the metallurgical, or physical characteristics of any audio cable - no matter how long that cable has been in service. I challenge any contributor to this thread to explain how this "magical" improvement to audio performance can happen over time.
This particular claim in not a "complex discussion"! What is so odd about asking for an solid explanation as well as doing a listening test? I have not noticed any such improvement over time in my system. You may ask, "why do I care what others spend for their system"? - and my answer is that I don't. But I do care about
the current proliferation of unscientific thinking in the audio field
that was largely absent in the earlier days of audio.
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I have bought many tweaks over the last three years.
Some have made noticeable improvements to my music, and some have not.
When posting here, I was lambasted by many - George deserving a slap for his vitriol (sorry George for using big words).
Best solution I found? Disappearing. And listening to music. That solved all problems.
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These speaker cables set you back some $20,000. https://in-akustik.de/de/kabel-zubehoer/referenz-air/air-technologie/They probably sound very ... eh ... transparent? (You can try them for free btw). Now open up your loudspeaker cabinet and look inside ... chances are from the terminals to the filter standard 18 AWM copper wire is being used. If you’re lucky 14 AWM. Same from filter to speaker. All and all probably 3 - 6 feet depending on your speaker cabinet size. |
No one is asking anyone to hurt themselves physically.
But you are, it's your pocket that will be hurt buy $200+ fuses that a 10c Bussman will do just as good. cerberus79
A few months ago I purchased a used pair of speakers from another Agon member.
To my surprise all the fuses were $150+ Orange fuses. I listened to them and then to satisfy my curiosity I replaced them with ordinary buss fuses and could not hear a difference.
I did this test with a bunch of friends and neither I or them could hear a difference. Kind of just says it all doesn't it? To those non technical thinking of purchasing these $$$ fuses. Just save your $150+ and do this instead. A fuse: 1: two end caps 2: short piece of fuse wire connecting the two end caps through a glass tube (that’s all she wrote). To those "non technical" members that are interested in "maybe" wasting their money, do not listen to the non-technical, listen to the technicians of this industry that design the audio products you have and listen to. AND YOU WON"T SEE THEM ON THREADS LIKE THIS AGREEING WITH WHAT SAID HERE ABOUT THE SOUND IMPROVMENT DETAILS AND AC FUSE PLACEMENT DIRECTION, EVER!!! Just clean and tighten your fuse holder and re-new your fuse (if old) with a good quality 50cent Bussman, Littlefuse or similar.As with "many switch-on surges" they do deteriorate, bend, stretch and get crusty with electrolysis formations on their fusible wire elements before they give out, as these pics show of a fuse wire element ageing over time show. https://ibb.co/9NbTwqK (even the $$$ boutique ones will age just as much also) Cheers George |
guakus:
You have failed to respond to my position. I am not calling anyone snake oil salesmen. I have tried about a dozen cable interconnects and speaker cables over the decades that are attached to what I regard as hefty prices. You insist that this is the "price of entry", pardon the pun, to have a respectable position in this debate. I still found the cables simply to be not worth the money nor my effort.
Instead of simply saying that we are each entitled to our views, you arrogate unto yourself the position that I cannot hear. This is a condescending attack and as you are not privy to the medical records of my ear, nose and throat doctor, you have absolutely zero empirical data to support it and I find it hard to believe that you should think that I should take it seriously: it is yet another arrogant condescension on your part.
The burden is on you, not me, to prove you are correct. I won’t wait for a nether region to freeze over.
Best regards - |
vinylguy2016What is so odd about asking for an solid explanation as
well as doing a listening test? What's odd is that as a self-described "engineering graduate," you come to a hobbyist's group seeking proof from others.
... I do care about
the current proliferation of unscientific thinking in the audio field ... Take a look around. The world is filled with unscientific thinking.
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I'm wondering how the objectivists came to make their purchasing decisions? Did you do double blind tests on cables you purchased, or was it a subjective decision?
I've seen very few double blind tests in regard to cables or audio equipment over many years. The few I've seen have been from audiophile associations, clubs or just a few guys getting together. Always see varied judgements, sometimes a modicum of consensus, other times not. Evidence for correlation in some cases, this is not good enough for concrete conclusions.
As for running the double blind tests, why do you need the manufacturer of cable to participate? You guys should be running these on regular basis, get the subjectivists amongst us to participate. One side says you need to experience a variety of cables at all price points to gain knowledge, the other, you need to participate in double blind tests to gain knowledge. Well, certainly easy to experience a variety of cables in our free market capitalist system. Not so easy to participate in double blind tests. We subjectivist have provided many entry points to ascertain for yourself whether cables make a difference or not. Isn't it up to you guys to provide us with opportunities to participate in rigorous scientific double blind tests? The subjectivists are fine with the status quo, you guys seem to not like so much. We subjectivists absolutely need to hear for ourselves your particular chosen cable vs. our chosen cable in double blind test. I can't just take your testimony as proof, talk about snake oil salesmen!
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@cleeds, because people do not understand scientific thinking and frankly do not want to. They would rather hold seances. vinylguy2016 is sharing a valid opinion and I'm sure like myself he collects some valuable information here. An engineering graduate can't be a hobbyist and enjoy conversation with others that share the same fascination?
vinylguy2016, I started in exactly the same place, ST70 + PAS 3X kits. Got them with snow clearing money at Lechmere Sales in Dedham. I brought them home in a backpack. I was on a bicycle which I was not allowed to ride off the block:-) My parents had no idea what I was doing.
Thank you for your eloquent statement. I get roasted all the time for expressing that opinion. Badge of honor. You might not get it as vigorously as you are far more polite than I am.
It is safe to assume the placebo effect as 50%. If I give 100 people with headaches a sugar pill 50 will tell you it made them better. This is why we always run controls. It would be fun to run an experiment on appearance. Take two pair of the exact same cables, but dress one set up with covers and fake little boxes. Let the subjects see the cables. I'd bet 75% will tell you the dressed up cable sounded better.
Marketers are not scientists either which is why reading most audio ads is such a trip into implausibility.
"How can you have an opinion if you have not listened." I am really sick of that bail out. Do I have to see a bus to know it can't fly? Speakers and turntables operate under the rule of physics. No mystery to someone who understands those rules. There are many very smart people here but, none of us can be educated in everything. We follow certain paths.
It astounds me that so many people have no concept of the plasticity of the human central nervous system. It was programmed by evolution to survive in a very dangerous environment. In most places that environment no longer exists. Thus many of our instincts and physiologies have become dysfunctional. Why do we go out of our way to anger someone who does not share our opinion? Seems so counterproductive. But, I just can't help myself when it comes to the tweakers. There's that darn male dominance instinct. |
@mijostyn
"
"How can you have an opinion if you have not listened." I am really sick of that bail out.
"
Well, I am really sick of being told it is all in my head. That's also a monumental bail out as well as a personal attack. I find that trope to be offensive and truly it is the crux of the entire argument. Nay-sayers cannot conduct their discussion without the need for insulting people. Indeed that is the entire point of the nay-sayer argument, is it not? Those folks are suggesting that people who buy and invest in expensive cables are "fools" and those same folks feel the need to express that.
Well, as it turns out, it is very easy to prove it isn't in anyone's head and follows electrical engineering. I mentioned this concept before in this thread. Remove your audio cable to your subwoofer (assuming it uses an RCA connection) and put in a component video cable and experience a complete loss of bass. Component cables are designed to filter out low frequency information. It's still copper, it still supports 75ohms, it has an RCA connector. It proves that cable geometry makes a definitive difference and golly gee whiz, if cable geometry can make that big a difference...then....the conclusion is better cables equal better sound.
Here's another one, if cable geometry doesn't matter, then why does HDMI require such precise wire twists and specific intervals in order to maintain speed of transmission and synchronization between audio and video? Because geometry matters. "But it's ones and zeros!" No, no it isn't. It's an analog square-wave that is interpreted as a one or zero on the receiving end. That signal is 100% impacted by electrical flaws and interference.
Also, you wouldn't connect your large speakers with 32 gauge telephone wire. At a minimum, you would connect a 12 gauge speaker wire. Why? According to you folks it shouldn't matter. Buying 12 gauge braided speaker wire is "Snake Oil." Oh wait, I forgot, if that wire is under $50 it magically becomes practical and not "Snake Oil."
Give it up. You're welcome to your opinion and in general there is nothing wrong with that. It only becomes a problem when you feel the need to pass judgement on those who don't believe as you do. Why can't you accept that some people can hear the difference? Is it because you dislike the idea that you're being left out?
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@unreceiveddogma
"
I still found the cables simply to be not worth the money nor my effort.
"
Whether the audio gains are worth the price of admission is an ENTIRELY different discussion.
This discussion is the quandary that better cables do NOT equal better sound.
And for the record, if a person makes a poor assumption that, "it's all in your head" then I am welcome to respond with, "there must be something wrong with your ability to hear."
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@georgehifi
"
But you are, it's your pocket that will be hurt buy $200+ fuses that a 10c Bussman will do just as good.
"
Your pocket, last I checked, wasn't part of your physical being. If the cost hurts your pocketbook, then don't buy it; you can't afford it. No one has asked anyone to go bankrupt to get better sound.
You're also basing your entire premise on fuses. That is an extremely narrow vision. There are other components being attacked, speaker cables, interconnects, power cables, power distributors, DACs, cable risers, RF diffusion devices, etc.
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@gaukus
It’s not an entirely different discussion. It’s the same discussion. I found for all intents and purposes that there is no, nunca, nada, zero, zilch difference.
Ok, I’ll refrain from hyperbole. I can say that if there was a difference, it was certainly well within the margin of my audio system’s warm up time.
These threads over cables are such a waste of time. I’m checking out now.
Regards - |
I think Roger Modjeski summed it up perfectly in terms of relative value and how to set one’s audio priorities: "...makers of tweaks will certainly get no admiration from me. What gets me is why so many people want to play with tweaks rather than make real improvements in their system like bi-amping, adding a good subwoofer and simplifying the signal path." |
@jerrybj Best solution I found? Disappearing. And listening to music. That solved all problems.
- good one! |
guakus:
”…You’re using a broad judgemental [sic] opinion to simplify a complex discussion….”
elegant design - whether, architectural, engineering, graphic design, etc - strips things down to its essentials in the service of clarity.
If your argument relies on complexity, maybe it’s in the service of obfuscation, maybe you need a better argument. |
mijostyn: I’m the guy with the Dyna70 + PAS kits. 🤔😆 |
I have so far noticed that no one on this thread has dared to step forward to explain how, or why, any audio cable could possibly require a "break in" period to achieve its optimum performance. Yet this is one of the widely held "myths" held by those who champion the virtues of "premium" or expensive audio-speaker cables.
I maintain that there is simply no logical explanation for this purely subjective idea - and that the only plausible cause for this phenomenon is the very common occurrence of the "placebo effect" that can so easily alter the judgement of all of us - including myself!.
I have fallen for a few "slick" sales pitches in my time! When I installed a device called the Judson Electronic Magneto on my vintage Volkswagen Beetle - I was utterly convinced that my car experienced a significant performance improvement, until it failed. I then later discovered, thru Consumer Reports, that this impressive looking gadget was nothing but an ordinary ignition coil encased in a fancy chrome plated case with a "phony" solid state chip mounted on the front.
We can all be "suckered" into wasting our money - so "buyer beware"! That is why organizations like Consumer Reports exist, to help us avoid bad choices in our purchases. It's a virtual jungle out there - with proliferating scams of all stripes vying to dip into our pockets - to make lots of "easy money". In these strange times, you don't always "get what you pay for" - so "a word to the wise should be sufficient". Happy listening to all!
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The logic is unassailable. See if you can follow it.
The choice of dielectric has a big effect on sound. Why? Because no dielectric is perfect. What does that mean? The perfect dielectric would neither absorb nor release any electrical energy. None of them are perfect. They all are energized to some extent by the electric field around the signal. Then after the signal peak passes some of this energy is released back into the wire. This results in audible smearing.
Okay, so one solid fact everyone should know.
Next one, that logically follows from the first, every dielectric holds some amount of charge. We don't want this, it isn't perfect, but it does. The amount varies with some being better than others. They all do this to some degree however, or else otherwise they would be perfect, see?
Now imagine a brand new cable. Signal comes along, charges the dielectric, bleeds back in smearing the signal. Bleeds back in at different rates. Starts out fast but then falls off as the charge dissipates. Just like everything else you ever seen your whole life.
Think of a rock or piece of metal. Hit it with a blow torch it gets hot. Take away the torch, at first it is real hot but then cools off real fast at first, but then stays fairly warm for quite some time after that.
Now imagine the rock was cold to begin with. More heat would go to warming the inside of the rock, at least at first. After a while you keep hitting it with the torch, taking it away, hitting it again, eventually the rock reaches thermal equilibrium. From that point on the radiation you feel on the outside becomes a lot more stable and consistent.
Same thing happens with the dielectric. Takes a while but eventually it becomes electrically saturated and then performs much more consistently.
It is not so terribly hard to understand now, is it?
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mijostyn .... because people do not understand scientific thinking and frankly do not
want to. They would rather hold seances. That's mighty colorful writing, and a great way to avoid the issue.
It is safe to assume the placebo
effect as 50%. If I give 100 people with headaches a sugar pill 50 will
tell you it made them better. This is why we always run controls. That's an amazing assumption, but now we're getting somewhere! Please tell us about the tests you and your team have conducted. The only tests I've seen regarding placebo and headaches merely concluded that the drug under test was not much more effective than placebo. But that raises as much question about the drug as it does the placebo, doesn't it? So I'm really interested in seeing your data and how the tests were conducted. I can PM you my email, if you like. Just let me know.
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Being right or wrong on this topic doesn’t matter - only sales do. At the end of the day if consumers don’t recognize a benefit from buying audio products that are promoted as improving sound then this will be reflected in poor sales. Regardless of how many arguments MC tries making with contrived analogies to rocks and metal to prove he is right the only thing that matters is the market - the ultimate arbiter. Other than an egocentric exercise, there is absolutely zero to gain by trying to "prove" based on argument that your position is correct. This isn’t debate club. People either hear it or they don’t and this is reflected in sales. I highly doubt many people have ever gotten wildly wealthy selling an audio tweak. |
@millercarbon
Couldn't have said it better. :)
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Good Modjeski quote, @three_easy_payments. Roger wasn't alone in his opinion, Tim De Paracicini (EAR-Yoshino, Pink Floyd Studios, the electonics of the Mobile Fidelity mastering chain) sharing many of them (as well how to make a superior transformer. Both Roger and Tim were masters of that science & art). |
@millercarbon
Couldn't have said it better. :)
Of course you couldn't. Because between the two of you there is only one human being actually typing. |
I've always wondered how a true "objectivist" could possibly know how well his/her system actually sounds? |
You know you've won the argument when all the opposition has left to offer is trolling.
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If you have joined Audiogon for the sole purpose of winning arguments you have sadly missed the point of the forum. |
FWIW, I'm not trolling. It's an honest question. |
@three_easy_payments
If you have joined Audiogon for the sole purpose of trolling, then you're just sad.
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@boxer12
My statement wasn’t directly aimed at you.
In answer to your question, opinions cannot be "objective" because the nature of opinion is "subjective." Observation isn’t always opinion. If you witnessed a car crash, it isn’t opinion or subjective if you state, "I just saw a car crash." Now, as to how and why the car crashed can be opinion.
If someone says they added a cable and it sounded better as a result, they are simply making an observation of their own system. That is objective to their particular circumstance. It would not be possible for anyone else to recreate that circumstance, even if they bought all the same equipment and cables. It’s a different place, a different room, different power, different acoustics and a different set of ears and different awareness. Therefore, the only person who can be objective is the owner of the equipment. All other rhetoric regarding it is subjective.
With that said, If that person recommends that cable to someone else for their system, it is NOT an objective statement. That person cannot possibly know for certain whether that cable will improve someone else’s system. IN that respect it is subjective.
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I had planned on making Cobra Skin cable liners but the necktie guys cornered the market…
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sailed right up next to the DBS patent but couldn’t bear to mention it Albert..
Of course, grad school level work is….wait for it…applying that into electronics….
Brinkmann gets it, others….
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