The "Snake Oil" Trope
@tomic601 I have no idea what "Quantum Tunneling" actually is. These companies use fancy names for their processes and tech. Much like Audioquest calling impure copper that has been mixed with sulfur as "Purple Copper" and standard, regular, everyday copper as, "Red Copper." *eye roll* I assume this is about Synergistic Research's "Quantum-Tunneling" tech? From my experience in building and troubleshooting telephony servers, we had extensive experience in what electricity does to components. Like having to add additional copper conductors to circuit boards because regardless of power supply, the board couldn't actually send the necessary voltage to the peripheral. Or when you subject a circuit or chip to massive voltage, it begins to eat a path; especially through silicon. We found that over time, the electricity will cut a path through the circuit until it reaches a post and then permanently shorts. So we ended up in a quandary when we found we had to send massive voltage to a peripheral to keep it powered at a level to perform its function, but at the same time reduced its life span because the chips were being degraded faster than expected. With that said, it stands to reason that if you subject a conductor with an unrealistic amount voltage (1,000,000 volts), it will cut pathways in that conductor. I believe that was the entire point of "Quantum-Tunneling," to create a current pathway for lower voltage signals to pass through with lowered impedance. This would work as a portion of the impeding material was burnt out, but at the same time, might have compromised the life cycle of that conductor. Regardless of what they call it, it does appear to have an impact on the signal. When I connected my Foundations to my Audioengine S8 subwoofer, replacing Audioquest Ruby X3s, the bass wave had dropped in loudness, but there was an increase in intensity. Then leaving the system running continuous music overnight, the bass level returned and the intensity had increased further. After a few days, the subwoofer was performing as if I had increased its volume and was so tight that fast-paced bass rhythms were clear and distinct. So, I formulated my opinion that for the money, their product was better than what I was using in Audioquest and in some cases, cheaper. *Shrug* I hope that answers your question. :) |
@asctim Your question is missing context. You must have all pertinent cables attached for your sound system and source in order to produce the music you want to play. For example, if you changed the cables on your CD player, but are playing music through your record player (phonograph), then you aren't able to perceive how much difference the new CD cable is providing because music isn't being played through it. Can you rephrase your question? |
@twoleftears That is a fascinating article, but it doesn't address audio. This is from just about every spec sheet for Synergistic Research's products: " Quantum Tunneling: Post Production process, 1 million volts are passed through finished cable providing a “canal” that allows electrons to pass more freely through conductor material and connections " This is why I use it as a process applied to a something. :) |
@dekay " Also curious as to why you are using $3,500+ of power conditioning and cables with <$300 speakers. " Because I like the way those $300 speakers sound. I knew they could sound better. Apparently, Audioengine also believes they could sound better because they also offer "Premium" versions of their basic cables. Speakers, to me, are nothing more than a box with drivers that produce a specific range of sound controlled by a crossover. Much of the expensive costs are the materials they use to make the box. Like, Cherry Wood, Polished Oak, etc. The frequency range is of the A2+ is 65hz to 22Khz. The S8 subwoofer covers the remaining range down to 20hz. Who cares if it didn't cost me $10,000. They are extremely well engineered and have beautiful sound quality, after I pumped $3500.00 and counting into it. My system, my choice. :D |
@69zoso69 Awesome Led Zeplin reference. :) I know exactly how you feel. I am actually experiencing it right now. I just got my Synergistic Research Foundation 3.5 mini to RCA cable to replace the Audioquest Yosemite. The first several hours have been "flat." It isn't the high-pitched 'shrill' that tends to get reported regarding silver cables. The good news is, the cable is proceeding almost exactly like the previous SR Foundation cable did on my subwoofer (RCA to RCA.) It starts off good, but sort of flat. Then on the over night burn in, it opened up and started to get great. Now, months later, it's awesome. So I figure this cable needs a few days or a week to truly settle in. I still feel worried it won't reach the same richness the AQ Yosemite was doing. I really don't want to get the AQ Angel. So, for now, this cable is Schrodinger's Interconnect. It is both a bad cable and a great cable....we will see....;) |
@Millercarbon Doesn't really bother me that folks don't "get it." I am used to that. I wanted my point of view posted for posterity as it can be found via Google Search. ;) I have always been the odd duck. I don't strive for popularity. I strive for happiness. I am happy with my setup and to date, no one who hears it says it sucks. :) |
three_easy_payments " This is total assertion of a superior position! " I disagree. It's your assertion that it is by making assumptions that fit your narrative. You're assuming I am calling you a nay-sayer, when I have in fact never accused you of it. It sounds as though you took my OP personally, which is interesting as only a nay-sayer would. BTW, never once in my ENTIRE OP, or this thread, have I stated *I* was better than anyone, or my system was better than anyone's. I invite you to prove it, copy paste the precise words where I said, "I am better than the nay-sayer because my opinion is the best." I'll wait. :) |
@avitacoma " I won’t pay more than $50 for an interconnect or $100 for a set of speaker cables " I used to have that same theory, but one day I decided to take a chance and it changed everything. If you are unwilling to take risks then you're unwilling to be happy. " until somebody does placebo controlled double blind studies on these expensive cables " Just curious why it's someone else's responsibility to convince you? If you don't want to spend the money, then don't. You aren't under any pressure to do so. I mean think about it, if someone *DID* do the double blind study and proves it, would you suddenly want to buy the cables....or...would you just move the goal post? |
@twoleftears " What I'm very dubious about is whether there is any justification in the scientific literature for calling that treatment, whatever it is, Quantum Tunneling. It certainly sounds good, but is that all there is to it? " Just being 110% honest here, yes. I think that is all there is to it. They chose the name, even if the process has nothing to do with the actual Quantum Tunneling theory. Marketing. It is what it is. ;) |
@p05129
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@tomic601 |
@jrsavageasd Or....could it be that you don't want to take the risk and would rather let "Electrical Engineers" give you an out? I have spoken to several "Electrical Engineers" and all of them say similar things, but the more you boil down their knowledge, you realize it never had anything to do with analog audio signals. It's always about power distribution. Does "X" component have enough voltage, wattage and amperage to perform the functions of "Z" component. So they manufacture equipment to test for these features and therefore haven't the slightest idea how to build a test apparatus that can say with any certainty that one cable sounds better than another. The only machine capable of that distinction is the human ear and golly, gee, wow, nature decided that we should all have individually oriented and configured ear drums, etc. The problem with all the "data" that is spewed forth by nay-sayers, electrical engineers and test equipment is that they never say how any of that data translates into sound quality. NONE of it. You can sit there and talk about THD, amplitude of x,y,z frequency, but can't tell in terms of, "it affects the attack and decay of a piano note" or "it allows the hammer of a kick drum to be heard before the resulting bass wave" or it allows you to pick up on the jingle of the singer's jewelry as they get too close to the mic when singing. If you're satisfied with your system's audio capabilities without high end cables, that's fine. No one is ever going to say that is wrong. But in the same token, it isn't your place to say other people are wrong for buying expensive cables to push their systems differently than yours. I also think it is wrong to label all expensive cables as, "snake oil" until you can prove it definitively and without the use electrical engineer test machines that aren't designed to test audio quality. |
@Three_Easy_Payments" " My views on tweaks and products that could fall under the category of "snake oil" are based solely on my own experience. " As are mine, as are anyone's. You're saying cables and fuses, etc never made much of a difference for you. Your experience doesn't automatically discount everyone else who did experience a change. Therefore, the idea of "Snake Oil" is disingenuous. You can say, "it didn't work for me" and that's valid and doesn't require any rebuttal. However, if you arbitrarily label anything that didn't work for you as "Snake Oil" you invite rebuttal; and maybe that's always been the point. Poke the hornet's nest because the hornets are too happy where they are. *Shrug* |
@mastering92 What's more interesting is that the brain automatically fills in the gaps of any data it thinks is missing. This includes sound. If a song had slight gaps in its melody, due to poor recording, bitrate, resolution, etc, our brains will attempt to fill those gaps. Psychology has proven that as a certainty. My wife, for example, speaks multiple languages and sometimes has trouble with certain English vowel sounds, they sound exactly the same to her; she CANNOT discern any difference no matter how you enunciate the difference. I wouldn't dare say she is inferior or defective, as I certainly cannot speak multiple languages and would have equal trouble trying to pronounce them (give Finnish a go!). I suspect something similar is going on for why some people can or cannot hear a difference, but there are far too many variables at play: 1) Power output to the location (house/apartment/etc) 2) Room acoustics. 3) Speaker placement. 4) Outside interference. so on and so on.... I have a pair of vintage DCM Timeframe 600s that I bought when they first released in 1994. Since then, it has been attached to four different stereos/amps, three different sets of main speaker cables and 15 different rooms. Each time the system sounded different. Some of that is measurable, some of it cannot. |
@tobor007
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@ozzy62 “Why
don't you tell us about that system?” |
@tomic601 "P-Zero on a Pinto" Uh huh, and a complete back-cat exhaust system, stage 6 turbo, inter cooler with external cold air filter, quick-change gear shift, ground kit, sport cams and maybe a NOS system. May not be pretty or brag-worthy, but very much a street sleeper. An unconventional system for an unconventional guy. :D Couldn't be happier. |
@tomic601 I used to work for the now long since defunct Incredible Universe in the Home Theater department. I loved the DCM Timeframe 600s and practically obsessed over them. When DCM told us about the 50% employee discount, I was quick to get mine. :) Then, some years later, I was working for a company called Alliance Systems and the Vice President was Rusty, who apparently was one of the co-owners of DCM. Small world. These DCMs have only had one co-axially mounted tweeter fail, which had replaced. Even though the crossover looks like a five-year old with a hot glue gun took a whack at it, they still perform beautifully. I have often wondered if it is worth trying to upgrade the capacitors, but I would fear ruining whatever calibration was made to their "Time delay" crossover tech. |
@avitacom Understood. The last "personal rhetoric" that I will impart, is that I used to be a heavy skeptic of power cables, even though I was able to discern differences in speaker cables and interconnects. The changes between speaker cables and interconnects were slight, but they were there. When I finally had the opportunity to start upgrading power and power cables, the changes were drastic and easily noticeable. It was as if power were 50% of the quality chain. My bit of advice, take it or leave it, is to change out your primary power socket for at least a Hospital Grade socket. 99% of houses/apartments have a standard, cheap socket that gets-the-job-done. Hospitals require a bit more than just "get-the-job-done." They need stability, and constant reliable current. The sockets have tighter grips with more copper behind it to boost conductivity. It also means connections won't accidentally slip out over time as well as make better contact. In both my systems, that was the upgrade that made the most impact. |
@avitacom There is a very certain way you can make this test. For poops and giggles, I decided to change out the RCA interconnects on my subwoofer from the Audioquest Ruby X3s to Audioquest YIQ 2 Component Video Cables. The Component cables have a solid copper conductor with silver plating. If Audioquest's "skin effect" theory is true, that the actual transmission of audio signal travels on the skin of the conductor, then I should get the benefits of silver, right? After all, Audioquest's Boxer cable is practically the same sort of conductor. A solid copper conductor with silver plating. That should mean that the YIQ 2 is a super cheap, awesome subwoofer cable, right? Guess what? There was a massive decrease in bass; so incredibly noticeable that you couldn't hear much if any bass at all. You couldn't even reach the same volume of bass if you turned the sub all they way to max volume. Replacing the Ruby X3s, the loud bass returned and I had to turn the volume back down to a reasonable level. Why? RCA interconnects shouldn't be any better or worse than any other RCA, right? Why would there be such a drastic difference? Psychosomatic? I was so used to the Ruby X3s that I suddenly went deaf when connecting the YIQ 2s? Why not try it yourself. Just find any simple RCA video cable laying around and replace any one of your component's RCA audio interconnects with that simple video cable. Then report back if you hear any difference whatsoever in sound quality. All it takes is maybe 10 total minutes out of your day. |
@oldhvymec Not gonna lie, I left them in for about 5 minutes. Enough to know those Component video cables were *NOT* meant for audio. I researched the issue and it boiled down to cable geometry and not metallurgy in this case. The geometry for those Component cables were designed to push high frequency and to filter out low frequency signals. This is why the bass response vanished. It was designed to make them vanish. Additionally, the difference in the number of conductors makes a difference. The Component cable had one conductor. The Ruby X3 has three conductors. When I later replaced the Ruby X3s for Synergistic Research Foundation RCA Interconnects (which are all silver), I was disappointed in the loss of thunderous "bass wave" the Ruby's provided, but the bass was clearly more defined and sounded more like an instrument and less like some uncategorized "thump." There was also more punch during the initial attack of the bass, such as when the hammer of kick drum hits. It took about 3 days of 24-hr burn in before the thunderous bass wave returned. After about a solid week of 24-hr burn in, the bass volume had increased to the point where I had to reduce the subwoofer's volume level. Even today, playing Edie Brickell's "Circle" from their re-mastered Ultimate Collection, the thumbing of the acoustic guitar carries so much bass that the floor shakes. O_O |
@mastering92 I disagree. bass, treble, mid range, etc is nothing but frequency transmitted via electricity. Electricity relies solely on conductivity. Frequency, as well as conductivity can be controlled through metallurgy and geometry. As mentioned in my post to oldhvymec, you can make a cable that filters certain frequencies or accentuate specific frequencies. Therefore, you can certainly develop a cable that produces a particular "sound." IN fact, you might say they "color" the sound with that manufacturer's "house sound." Obviously, the most ideal setup would be one that is neutral, so that your hardware (amps/preamps/phonograph/other transport) can do the bulk of the work in producing the frequencies. |
@dgluke Thing is, there isn't really a company out there that I know of that specializes in selling bulk raw wire that is designed and manufactured with audio applications in mind. They are all built for general electrical and mechanical applications. All the DIY videos and blogs out there are buying bulk Belden or other engineering industry supply companies. Then they are applying the same geometries that they've seen these "Snake Oil" merchants use like "Star-Quad" and "Hyperlitz" etc. Then they go and purchase aftermarket connectors sold by companies that also make "Snake Oil" and then consider themselves heroes that rose above "Snake Oil." *eye roll* Or, they're buying PREMADE electric cable that is meant to be used for mechanical purposes and adding after-market connectors and calling it a day. Those might sound great, but I won't know because I would know that they were never designed or meant to be used for audio. I would rather buy something I knew was meant to be used in an audio system. I don't have the nimble fingers needed to thread solid copper, or silver for that matter. I know because I tried. You need tools and in some cases, a special machine that I have seen these "Snake Oil" merchants use to ensure an exact and precise twist from end to end. That's the sort of "Peace of Mind" I am willing to pay for. It's why I would rather go to and pay extra for a certified mechanic, rather than save money hiring a guy that knows a guy whose cousin worked on a few cars over the Summer break because he bought a Dealership Repair manual on eBay, has a few tools, and is "handy". The truth is, these "Snake Oil" merchants seek out electrical supply companies and contract them to make wire that fits their very specific direction. A direction that they had their own in-house designer come up with. Right down to how the metal is treated. Then they contract a company to build a connector, that also meets their expectations. Then they hire and train staff to assemble these cables by hand using specialized tools. All this costs THEM money. So yeah, economics, they are going to pass that cost on to the customer. Am I going to cry foul because they decided to go with a trendy nylon, lattice-work design as a jacket cover which adds to the price tag? Or used some type of plastic net? No. That's silly. That is not to mention the fluctuating price of precious and semi-precious metals like copper and silver. LOL, I mean, I would tip my hat to someone who can buy all that bulk electrical wire, braid up a complex layered copper ring of concentric circles where each layer is counter direction to the previous, adding a non-intrusive dielectric between each layer, then precisely running a core cable of silver, dead center in the cable so that it doesn't get anywhere near touching the copper braid surrounding it. Then feed that through a form of insulation that can withstand the heat and electric charge without deteriorating and without compromising the quality of signal. Oh right, then they'd have to create a mold and strike a solid copper connector that they would then solder or cold weld all that copper and silver to. Yeah, hats off to that guy! I wonder how much they'd charge to make me that cable...probably a lot. ;) |
@sns I checked out Duelund and VH Audio. They make pre-made speaker and interconnect cables. They sell bulk wire that THEY have made and the application is audio. This is no different than buying spools of Audioquest wire or any other premium aduio brand. I was speaking to buying bulk spools of copper, silver, etc and literally constructing your own cable. |
@thelotusgroup You are suggesting that people act with courtesy and regard when having discourse on this subject. The "Snake Oil" trope doesn't lend itself to polite conversation. The entire term is an intended blight upon those who have made their choice for how they wish to tweak their system. It's a blatant attack. Nothing more. There is generally no middle or common ground, except that a sound system has to have power cables, interconnects and speaker cable in order to function. The "Snake Oil" argument isn't too dissimilar to politics or religion. How many times has that discussion ever been met with civility? ;) There will forever be someone who feels compelled to shame an audiophile for spending their money on expensive cables instead of just buying a better system. |
@vinylguy2016 You’re using a broad judgemental opinion to simplify a complex discussion. That’s also a typical human psychological trait. This concept where humans feel the need to label and compartmentalize everything in order to simplify one’s surroundings because it’s easier. Also, if you’re going to wax psychological human traits, there is plenty of studies that qualify the idea that some humans simply can’t hear certain sounds. Their brain isn’t wired in a way that allows them to hear differences between certain vowel sounds. Your overly generalized argument can be just as easily turned against you. I posit that nay-sayers lack the brain processes required to articulate any changes and nuance in sound quality. Thus they aren’t able to "hear" the difference and they immediately assume the opposing argument is flawed. They seek any evidence they can find to support their opinion; even if that evidence isn’t acquired through scientific method, peer reviewed or contain any control to cross-reference the results, and without any real tools to properly test for the quality of sound. Your side keeps asking for proof, but your side is just as incapable of providing proof. IN fact, I don’t see where it’s our side that has to prove anything. If I say, "This plate of tacos is delicious and must be the best taco ever made!" I would not be held to account to prove that it is the most delicious because "delicious" is subjective. There is no test that can be performed to determine whether that taco is "delicious." The only way anyone can "test" for it, is to have a control. An EQUALLY agreed upon control. So, a taco that *ALL* sides agrees is delicious and thus any new taco tested will be tested against the agreed upon control. Then those results will be peer reviewed. Then you would have a solid decision. This is the significant issue nay-sayers have. They lack the drive and resources to commit to a true test. There has to be a control system. An agreed upon system that ALL sides accept as the control. So anyone who wants to decide whether cables make a difference, or burn in is real, has to HAVE that exact system. You can make use of all that electrical testing equipment by verifying that the power requirements of any socket, power distributor, or power strip meets the same control variables set forth and agreed upon. Care to do that? Somehow, I doubt it. I find it amusing that ANY TIME this idea is brought up and folks are willing to PAY for it and support it, document it, and willing to settle this argument...the nay-sayers offer up a defensive excuse and leave the table. It’s almost as if they NEED this argument to continue. They don’t want it settled; it’s too much fun for them. Not to poke the hornets nest, but a certain nay-sayer "audiophile" was offered such a chance from a reputable "Snake Oil" brand and he turned it down. They would have shipped all his equipment to a neutral location, paid all expenses, rent and pay for a camera crew, and actually pay this person cash for their consulting. That person still offered up excuses and thus the ultimate test was washed. |
@adasdad
" Well have you tried it I asked. No. " ^^^^ Therein lies the true quandary. How can they assert with confidence that they are correct when they themselves haven't even attempted to experience it? I want to state for the record that a common excuse being used in this thread by the nay-sayers, is the concept that $50 is the fine line between "nothing can be better than this" and anything above is "Snake Oil." If I asked my wife, she'd say, "$50 is still too much!" Witness the hypocrisy that they quantify $50 being the epitome of perfect, but can turn around and say that if you didn't spend over $1000 on your stereo equipment, it couldn't possibly be any good. LoL!!!! |
@mijostyn
" "How can you have an opinion if you have not listened." I am really sick of that bail out. " Well, I am really sick of being told it is all in my head. That's also a monumental bail out as well as a personal attack. I find that trope to be offensive and truly it is the crux of the entire argument. Nay-sayers cannot conduct their discussion without the need for insulting people. Indeed that is the entire point of the nay-sayer argument, is it not? Those folks are suggesting that people who buy and invest in expensive cables are "fools" and those same folks feel the need to express that. Well, as it turns out, it is very easy to prove it isn't in anyone's head and follows electrical engineering. I mentioned this concept before in this thread. Remove your audio cable to your subwoofer (assuming it uses an RCA connection) and put in a component video cable and experience a complete loss of bass. Component cables are designed to filter out low frequency information. It's still copper, it still supports 75ohms, it has an RCA connector. It proves that cable geometry makes a definitive difference and golly gee whiz, if cable geometry can make that big a difference...then....the conclusion is better cables equal better sound. Here's another one, if cable geometry doesn't matter, then why does HDMI require such precise wire twists and specific intervals in order to maintain speed of transmission and synchronization between audio and video? Because geometry matters. "But it's ones and zeros!" No, no it isn't. It's an analog square-wave that is interpreted as a one or zero on the receiving end. That signal is 100% impacted by electrical flaws and interference. Also, you wouldn't connect your large speakers with 32 gauge telephone wire. At a minimum, you would connect a 12 gauge speaker wire. Why? According to you folks it shouldn't matter. Buying 12 gauge braided speaker wire is "Snake Oil." Oh wait, I forgot, if that wire is under $50 it magically becomes practical and not "Snake Oil." Give it up. You're welcome to your opinion and in general there is nothing wrong with that. It only becomes a problem when you feel the need to pass judgement on those who don't believe as you do. Why can't you accept that some people can hear the difference? Is it because you dislike the idea that you're being left out? |
@georgehifi " But you are, it's your pocket that will be hurt buy $200+ fuses that a 10c Bussman will do just as good. " Your pocket, last I checked, wasn't part of your physical being. If the cost hurts your pocketbook, then don't buy it; you can't afford it. No one has asked anyone to go bankrupt to get better sound. You're also basing your entire premise on fuses. That is an extremely narrow vision. There are other components being attacked, speaker cables, interconnects, power cables, power distributors, DACs, cable risers, RF diffusion devices, etc. |
@unreceiveddogma " I still found the cables simply to be not worth the money nor my effort. " Whether the audio gains are worth the price of admission is an ENTIRELY different discussion. This discussion is the quandary that better cables do NOT equal better sound. And for the record, if a person makes a poor assumption that, "it's all in your head" then I am welcome to respond with, "there must be something wrong with your ability to hear." |
@boxer12 My statement wasn’t directly aimed at you. In answer to your question, opinions cannot be "objective" because the nature of opinion is "subjective." Observation isn’t always opinion. If you witnessed a car crash, it isn’t opinion or subjective if you state, "I just saw a car crash." Now, as to how and why the car crashed can be opinion. If someone says they added a cable and it sounded better as a result, they are simply making an observation of their own system. That is objective to their particular circumstance. It would not be possible for anyone else to recreate that circumstance, even if they bought all the same equipment and cables. It’s a different place, a different room, different power, different acoustics and a different set of ears and different awareness. Therefore, the only person who can be objective is the owner of the equipment. All other rhetoric regarding it is subjective. With that said, If that person recommends that cable to someone else for their system, it is NOT an objective statement. That person cannot possibly know for certain whether that cable will improve someone else’s system. IN that respect it is subjective. |
@jerrybj I feel you. I really wanted a place where I could talk about how different cables affect the system. Maybe even get some guidance on which DAC to eventually upgrade to. My first post was about my recent addition of Shunyata’s newly released Venom V16 power distributor, using their Delta v2 XC power cable from their reference line. Not one single response asking questions about the product or how it sounded. Just one post from someone who took issue with my issues about replacing the Audioquest in my system. *shrug* |
