Yeah I know, a controversial topic, but after 30+ years of hearing both sides and seeing how the argument has evolved over the years, I want to say my piece.
First, I want to debunk the idea of ever using the term, "Snake Oil" because it has been incorrectly appropriated and is not being applied genuinely. For a product to be "Snake Oil" it isn't a simple matter of, "it doesn't do what it claims to do." It has to contain a few more qualities. Chief among them, the materials or ingredients have to be fake, falsified, or non-existent. I have yet to encounter a single premium cable manufacturer who has claimed to use copper or silver and it was fake.
This would be an example of cable "Snake Oil" if it existed:
Company claim: "A 10 gauge speaker wire made of ten 9's pure silver, extracted from conflict-free mines, using NASA quality FEP dielectrics, braided in 24 strands of 17 gauge wire, all concealed in the newly developed element, Star-Spangled-Bannerite, that enhances and boosts all frequencies, repairing broken audio as it travels down the conductor."
Reality: Cutting open the wire you find 3 strands of 14 gauge aluminum wire, wrapped in Glad's saran-wrap, threaded through a 10 gauge rubber garden hose, covered in a fancy colored net.
My biggest problem with the nay-sayer community is the hypocrisy of their accusation that premium quality cables are "Snake Oil" when their charts, measurements and tests have the same level of skepticism they purport to debunk. Using "Snake Oil" to prove "Snake Oil?" Ask yourself the following questions when you next see some online or vlog rant about how cables don't make a difference and they have the measurements to prove it:
1) Did they actually connect the cables to speakers and listen? 2) If they made measurements, did they show you how those cables were connected when they conducted the tests? 3) If it is a vlog, did they show in the video live footage of them conducting the test or is everything after-the-fact? 4) How does the test prove quality and how does the author quantify "quality?"
99% of the time the answer is "no." You just see people posting pictures of charts that could have been made using any form of software. Heck, I could make one in Photoshop that dictates any conclusion I want. The truth is, there isn't a single form of equipment or measurement software that tests the actual perceived quality or clarity of a signal.
For example, "that guy" from Audioholics posted a video bashing a $4000 Audioquest speaker cable. He claims to have run it through tests and he posted pictures of graphs that he gave conclusions for. Not once did he show how it was connected to the machines or equipment. More over, he claimed to have broken the cable, by easily snapping off the banana plug (made of pure copper coated in silver). Well, if that were true, then how could he have possibly connected the cable correctly to test it? He also claimed the cable was on loan from Audioquest. Red flag. Audioquest does not send out one speaker cable to test; they'd have sent out a pair. He also wasn't at all concerned that he had broken a $4000 loaner cable. Therefore, I suspect someone else broke their own cable and let "this guy" borrow it for a video. Lastly, he claims to test the effectiveness of the "DBS" system by showing you a digital read out on some other machine. He claims to unplug the DBS system live...but...off screen, and the digital read out changes. That makes absolutely no sense, since the DBS system isn't tied to the actual conductors or connectors. It's a charged loop from end to end and only keeps the insulation's dielectric field charged. So unplugging it while a signal is being passed through the cable wouldn't change anything. Therefore, the nay-sayer argument, in this instance, was nothing more than "Snake Oil" trying to prove "Snake Oil."
Another time, someone was given a premium XLR cable, but had no idea what an XLR cable was. They didn't recognize the connector format; a red flag straight away! Then goes on to claim all the different measurements they took from it and how it was no better than the free cables you get from manufacturers. Well, if that is true, how was this cable connected to the equipment? If he didn't know what the XLR format was, then it stands to reason they didn't have an XLR input on the equipment they used to test. Therefore, how in the world was this an equitable or viable test of the quality if the cable's conductors weren't all being used correctly during the test? Not once did this person connect it to an audio system to say how it sounded. How do electrical measurements translate into sound quality if one refuses to listen to it?
My final argument against the nay-sayers is one they all have the most trouble with. They don't use the Scientific Method. For example, where's the control in these tests? What system or cable do they universally *ALL* agree is perfect and that they test against? The systems and cables always change and are never consistent. Why is it that they argue for an A / B test, but aren't willing to set one up for themselves? As if it's someone else's responsibility because they refuse to be responsible for their conclusions. Why is it that they only test low end or middle grade cables, but never seem to run these tests on the highest levels? Why is it that the majority of nay-sayers never purchase any of this equipment to find out for themselves?
What I have discovered after 30+ years of arguing this topic, is that the nay-sayers just don't want to have to buy expensive cables. Instead they seek out any form of cognitive bias they can find to use as justification to not buy it. Then suddenly concern themselves with other people's purchase power and tell them not to purchase such cables, as if these people are spending their money. Or they claim that they should have spent all that money on better equipment. Touche', but if they bought better equipment, they'd still buy premium cables to push that better equipment. That's like saving your money to buy a Lamborghini, then deciding on buying 15 inch steel rims with narrow tires for it because wheels are wheels...they bought a better vehicle, so won't need premium tires...or premium gas because the engine is superior. *eye roll.* What it seems to boil down to is that they don't like the idea that just buying premium cables alone can surpass a high grade, well-engineered system. To borrow from my car analogy, buying premium tires for a 4-cylynder hatch back won't make it go any faster, but it will effect some performance, likely gas mileage and road grip. Using the same analogy, buying better cables is akin to buying a turbo kit, back-exhaust system, better suspension, better intake valves, better cold air filters, etc to make that 4-cylinder hatch back perform nearly as well as a stock
Lamborghini.
Final thoughts, "Snake Oil" salesmen back in the day weren't just interested in defrauding their customers, they wanted to do it with the least amount of effort. They didn't try to get authentic, high quality ingredients to make the oil look or taste better. They used whatever was on-hand and as free as possible. Cable companies sure seem to go out of their way to acquire the best possible conductors and materials, and have R&D teams engineer complicated wire geometries and spend years finding ways to treat the cables, or develop active tech to impact the signal, just so they can make a few bucks. If the product had absolutely no impact on sound quality, at all, it wouldn't take long for well-engineered systems to reveal their faults and the industry would tank, almost over night. Clearly, they haven't and it's because it isn't "Snake Oil" no matter how many times that old trope is trotted out.
One of the serious problems in this entire discussion is that the
perception of "quality" is 100% subjective to the listener, the state of
the equipment, the room it is being conducted in, and health of the
listener. After years of auditioning my system to people, I realized it isn't a simple matter of asking, "How did that sound to you." You have to be very specific. Ask, "Did you hear that specific sound?" 9 times out of 10, they'll say they didn't hear it. So you play it again and point it out. Then they light up and realize that no matter how many times they heard that song, they had never heard that particular sound. Then they go and compare it to the car radio or through their device's ear buds and realize they cannot hear it or couldn't hear it as clear. Then they come to respect what you're trying to achieve.
As for speakers that measure the same sounding the same, I believe they do. I have a left and right pair that measure the same and sound the same to me. To measure the same, the different speaker's polar plots have to be the same. Unless they have almost the exact same design it is almost certain that two different speakers will not have the same dispersion characteristics and so will not measure the same nor sound the same.
I believe cables can make an audible difference. I also believe that when they do make an audible difference it is possible to show that difference in measurements. The best way to measure it is at the speaker's output, because that is what we are actually listening to. Measuring the cable's electrical performance into a test load may or may not reveal what is happening with any particular system.
Patent infringement is not the same as counterfeiting and my company spends millions of dollars fighting the counterfeit market in Asia, South America and Mexico. It costs us Billions of dollars and in some cases peoples lives.
Guess what happen to your great fuse idea? Everyone in the counterfeit
world is copying your 3 years of R&D, because you were dumb enough
to go to a patent office, in the US, pay a lot of money and STILL have
people in other countries laugh at you, in your US court, while THEY
copy your US patent with all the notations on HOW to make the stupid
thing.. Not to smart is it?
I will not read this thread even if some friends have probably written good posts in it certainly...
"snake oil" like said the OP is an expression abusively used more often than not in audio against many good poducts...
And cables and fuses for example are secondary artefact for me to build Hi-Fi experience even if there is a difference between cables( i experience it ) and a difference between fuses probably also ( i trust some people here who advocate for that in their experience)...
Anyone arguing against something by principle without experimenting with it, is for sure perhaps not an alleged "snake oil seller or customer" but is certainly an "empty mouth speaker"...
Audio obey science laws like any phenomenon on earth, but audio is not reducible to known laws only, like many other phenomenon : the weather for example which result from complex factors...
The reason is simple: audio experience emerge between multidimensional working factors and brain/ears....And many factors are imprevisible and play a role, mechanically, electrically and acoustically....
i will not read the thread but i cannot resist to give my opinion...I apologize for this arrogant stance of mine.... 😁😊
My best to all, alleged "snake oilers customers and sellers" and to all others....
Thanks to the OP for his lucid take about the "trope"....
Can’t the same argument be said, "Just get the premium fuse and try it for yourself to see if it makes a difference?"
Why spend $200+ for nothing!!!
When all you have to do is this 1: “Just re-new your fuse with the same amperage, if it’s old and has seen many turn on cycles, with a quality one like Bussman or Littlefuse.
2: And clean the cradle fuse contacts and maybe squeeze them in a little for a tight fit.
3: Just change the fuse if old, for a quality brand EE industry standard 50c fuse, as fuses (even the $200 boutique one) also age after many turn on cycle surges.”
4: And there is definitely no such thing as direction with an AC mains fuse.
Any sort of metalic plating of the fuse wire in a fuse will change it's blow point🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️
Just get these for a couple of bucks you fusers and be done with it. And save yourself a fortune in the process, as no fuse is better that any fuse the way you lot think. https://ibb.co/KqV3hNb
Gold is # 3 but the melting point is very low, plating with a lower melting point will decrease the wires melting point. That is figured into the new alloys being used as fuse wire, they also dissipate heat a lot quicker so HEAT doesn't influence the quality of the AC for 30 minutes while the fuse reforms and cools down.
There is a reason why there is a 30 minute warm up, it's ALSO a cool down for the slow blow fuse in a tube amp, or ANY amp that uses a slow blow.. They get HOT on start up..
Most of the boutique fuses dissipate the heat almost instantly when they are dampened with oil/goo/sand/???. Silver coated tungsten then plate a 2nd time with gold. I've seen some weird wire. It is still a fuse it just has OTHER properties that influence SQ more so than a good ol Busman.
We are a living, learning, changing thing.. So is a stereo..:-)
This is going to be my last reply to you, because you very obviously do not know what you are talking about. Silver is the best conductor of electricity, followed by copper, followed by Gold.
Meaning.....Silver has the lowest resistance, followed by copper, and then lastly gold.
FIlaments of the same gauge made out of these Metals will reach their thermal peaks at different points. Gold will blow at a lower amp load, followed by copper, and then Silver.
Let it go man... this is not a debate. You are missing out on a whole other side of audio by being this stubborn.
Gold’s electrical resistivity is 0.022 micro-ohm m at 20 °C, and its thermal conductivity is 310 W m-1 K-1 at the same temperature. The corrosion resistance of gold is possibly one of its most valuable properties.
Copper’s electrical resistivity is .017 micro-ohm
A gold plating will not decrease resistance, it will increase it. Fuse will blow faster if anything at all.
🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️🤦♂️ Oh dear, But you change the resistance by gold plating the filament, so it will not blow when it should!!. (dangerous)
The best "sounding fuse" to you guys will be no fuse at all. Then you may as well just use one of these solid brass dummy test fuse Buss Bars in place of the fuse, (which I need to say is also dangerous) unless you a tech and your doing testing. https://ibb.co/KqV3hNb
A Gold plated filament will still act as a fuse. If the wire reaches its limit, the connection will sever itself, its basic kindergarten physics. Plating does not increase the gauge of the wire.
That’s what everyone is trying to say, that quite a few of the fancy fuses don’t ACT like a typical fuse. They actually make certain pieces of equipment sound different.. Some equipment they don’t change a single thing.. The better the power supply the less I notice it.
The one thing I don’t like about a stock fuse is 1/2 way through it’s life the little wire is already showing signs of resistance, it is so gradual, it is tough to hear it getting worse over the last 1/2 of its life.
New fuses don’t heat up, vibrate, or warp like a busman. MOST are now packed in some type of a thermal-coupling mixture that dampen and transmits heat very quickly. That sudden "turn on" that heats and adds resistance into the circuit, and the last 1/2 of the stock fuse life is the problem that the new fuses fix.
The characteristics of how the fuse acts when turned on NOW keeps that element a lot more thermally correct over its WHOLE life not just the first 1/2 and the first 30 minutes too or until the fuse wire cools again. There is a reason a fancy fuse sounds better from the first time you turn it on.. If it is a Slow Blow, I notice it more so..
There is a reason they work the way they do, there is a lot of mumbo jumbo that goes into making a fuse, that you can’t get a patent on unless you show, what you want a patent on..
Guess what happen to your great fuse idea? Everyone in the counterfeit world is copying your 3 years of R&D, because you were dumb enough to go to a patent office, in the US, pay a lot of money and STILL have people in other countries laugh at you, in your US court, while THEY copy your US patent with all the notations on HOW to make the stupid thing.. Not to smart is it?
That is why there is NOT a lot on "how they do it". ONLY that they do it, and offer you your money back if it doesn’t work for you..
I worked around a lot of German folks for 15 years, both countries, (the US and Germany) could give a crap about patent stuff, they just wouldn’t tell you how to make it or what it was made out of.. LOL Use to crack me up.. Tooling primarily..
Using better parts for a machine typically yields better function from said machine. I am 110% certain that if a company used a fuse with better conductive parts or quality materials, that machine will function better than if they used a throw-away, get-the-job-done part. It's like vacuum tubes. The quality of Telefunken German finessed engineering of their tubes far and away outperform Mullard or RCA tubes, even if they use the same identical configuration and parts.
(yeah, I know, one can't really compare Vac tubes to fuses, but I feel the point stands.)
I get why there is a market for premium fuses. The current has to pass through the fuse in order to power whatever system. If the fuse uses inferior components, it will add unneeded impedance on the signal.
And fuse blows because it’s a certain impedance/resistance, if it wasn’t it wouldn’t blow. That impedance/resistance dictates at what amperage it can take, then blow. I don’t know who you’ve been listening to, as he’s giving you bad info.
There is no signal, it’s ac 60hz mains which switches/inverts it phase at 60 cycles per second, therefore the ac fuse cannot be directional because of it’s switching phase.
I get why there is a market for premium fuses. The current has to pass through the fuse in order to power whatever system. If the fuse uses inferior components, it will add unneeded impedance on the signal.
+1 guakus - I agree, fuses are not good. Added resistance in both fuse holders and fuse itself, circuit breakers all the way. For the all my amps and preamp that had fuses, they have been replaced by soldered in silver-plated copper wire + circuit breaker. No more unnecessary added resistance. Connectors are the weakest link.
@jerrybj My supervisor and I are both ordering the SR Purple fuses. We were both going to order the SR Orange fuses, but decided to spend the extra for the new versions. However, I am waiting for my new SR Foundation power cables to arrive before I get them. We have very different systems and we’re curious how they will perform.
The Shunyata Venom V16 doesn't have a fuse. It uses a Hydraulic Electromagnetic Breaker instead.
I checked the A2+, it also has no fuse. The DCM Timeframe 600s have a lamp fuse hard soldered in, so these premium fuses wouldn't work. I don't recall Yamaha receivers having a fuse in the previous one I opened. Newer ones could, possibly.
More likely you just never noticed. The two most common fuse locations are near invisible or even impossible to see. Near invisible: look real close at the IEC connector socket. Either above or below will be a very small rectangle with writing it typically requires a flashlight to read. These have a tiny little tab or slot you can pry open with a small screwdriver. These all use the small size fuse.
If you don't see that then the fuse will be inside. Remove the cover, look near where AC power comes in. It will be there. At least one. Take it to the bank. Cash the check. Spend the money.
"
just not on board with the idea you need to spend a lot of money to get superb sound quality.
"
I agree. I wish they didn't charge so much for "premium." Bulk cable bundles of Teflon coated silver is about $1.75 a foot. A far cry from the $1000.00 plus a meter that is typically charged for silver cables or copper with Teflon (FEP).
I suppose that is why I went with Synergistic Foundation series. It was silver cables for under $1000. Albeit with air as a dielectric instead of Teflon or FEP.
I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm surely not saying cable are snake oil, or am I saying all premium cables are not deserving of premium price. I've only been continually making the point cables sound different from one another in my experience, this is making the point cables are not snake oil.
Certainly, its not my prerogative to tell someone else what they hear, if they don't hear difference, fine with me. On the other hand, they also don't have the prerogative to tell me I'm delusional when I claim to hear differences, they don't and can't know what I hear. I also never said the premium cables I previously owned were not fine sounding. I simply found cables I preferred and moved on. And I do use higher cost digital cables, specifically AQ Vodka and Diamond. I hear definite advantage to these cables vs. lower cost I purchased and/or auditioned. Bottom line, is agree no room for insults, strong opinions fine. Keeping it at opinion one is mindful there are other opinions. Opinions segueing into belief is when the insults start flying. And if I'm understanding you correctly, don't be so defensive when someone like myself is actually agreeing with you, just not on board with the idea you need to spend a lot of money to get superb sound quality.
Who defines what is and what isn't "good sound?" How much money was spent? Tech? Experience? Comfort? Realism? It's all subjective.
This entire thread started largely as a complaint against using the term "Snake Oil" as it applies to audio cables; It simply doesn't apply. That's my firm opinion and no one on this thread has presented a case that even comes close to convincing me to change my mind.
Someone's rhetorical "perception" that their experience with premium cables weren't good doesn't automatically supplant my "experience" and "perception" that premium cables were good. Since no one is capable or willing to use the Scientific Method to prove either case, it's pure opinion that is split into two camps. There really is no other way to "perceive" it.
Again, in all the time that I have delved into this conversation, the same tropes always apply. It was never a simple matter of difference of opinion. It was opinion vs insult. This thread has traversed no differently.
@guakus Perception of sound is more than just detecting that there is a sound. It's all the qualities we perceive in that sound, including our perception of it being good. If perceiving good sound isn't the goal for your stereo system that's fine. The perception of good sound is what I'm after, and I'm willing to explore any and all means of achieving that, assuming they are legal and safe, including things that have nothing to do with actually changing the sonic waves that reach my ears. The question about caring is if you care about the nature of what it is that is causing the pleasing perception. Sound is a word that describes both the perception of hearing and the actual mechanical waves that radiate through the air and reach our ears. I am interested in knowing more about how the sonic perceptions that I desire occur. Were they inspired wholly through my ears, or did other previous and current experience coming through other senses change my perception of the sound as well? Ways to care about this are to use controlled listening tests and instrument measurements. If both are inconclusive, then you can't say you know for sure what's causing the perception of good sound. Insisting that the sound waves actually changed in some way to create your perception of hearing good sound really makes no sense if you can't provide the evidence. Why not just enjoy the pleasing perception? Price may be part of what's creating the perception. The person making the profit may have done the hard work in presentation and proper pricing to create the intended effect. They may realize that the perception of good sound from a stereo component involves multiple sensory input and priming with information and a back story. What's wrong with that?
I love it when people try the Jedi mind trick “what? You mean… as a high end audiophile for 40 years you tell me you can’t hear this night and day difference? You, among all the audiophiles?!” And all I need to to do is smile.
Having built a number of audio systems over the years, I've experienced and observed why cables are perceived the way they are. I start builds by first choosing speakers and amps as a package. This is both the most critical stage of building system and the most important equipment within the system. Especially the speaker, start off with wrong choice and you'll invariably end up at dead end. Next, in my case, linestage, since I always run both analog and digital, then comes source equipment.
I'll add the above is built upon two fundamentals, both AC delivery and room could be thought as critical components, both were taken care of very early in this process. I've been in same dedicated listening room for over twenty years, so these two things have been fairly static since I found a satisfying solution. So then we come to fine tuning the system, this includes things like equipment racks, footers, cables. During fine tuning stage what may seem like undue attention is paid to individual aspects such as footers on any piece of equipment, individual cables. One may perceive this one particular cable as being the cause of some perceived sound quality anomalie, therefore, any number of cables may be auditioned. Perhaps they discover a particular cable that cures this anomalie, in the moment that cable may be perceived as an extremely important component. This particular cable and all cables for that matter now become far more important than their actual contribution to the entire system. I presume this is the point when you see people extolling the virtues of some particular cable. Some may remain fixated upon the moment this cable or cables took their system 'over the top'. They then go on to misjudge the true percentage of contribution this cable or cables made to the entire system. Having gone through this same process any number of times over many years, I now have what I think is a more accurate perception of cable's value to the entire system. I no longer hear cable changes that take my system 'over the top'. My present system has reached the most pleasurable state ever experienced without the most expensive cables I previously owned. I segued out of them because over time they weren't this perfect solution I may have previously perceived them being. Its somewhat counterintuitive, but my experience has been the more my systems improved the less cables mattered. All the top of line cables I've auditioned or owned have had relatively strong particular flavorings which didn't turn out to work in long run. My take is these strong flavorings were chosen to make them stand out against others. Once your system is well balanced and natural sans cables you don't want or need the strong flavorings. I now perceive cables as workmanlike in nature, just get out the way, let the equipment create the sound signature.
Every time someone tells me that I shouldn’t buy a specific product because they don’t like it increases my chances of buying said product. All because you are telling me not to do it.
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