Ohhhh..... so you are one of the spies on Audio Subjective... I see
The science of opinion ...
Some may find this interesting (it is).
Some may find this threatening (it isn't, it is science).
Some may read it and use it to help them understand the dynamics of internet forums.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0078433
Some may find this threatening (it isn't, it is science).
Some may read it and use it to help them understand the dynamics of internet forums.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0078433
402 responses Add your response
OK, I think I finally figured this all out. It’s from the Seinfeld episode, The Limo. Does anyone else think it was a bad idea to get Kramer involved? Jerry flies in from Chicago and George arrives to take him home. His car has broken down on the Belt Parkway, stranding them at the airport. Jerry points out a limousine chauffeur with a sign saying "O’Brien". Jerry had seen an O’Brien in Chicago complaining to airport staff that he had to reach Madison Square Garden. Since O’Brien’s flight is overbooked and he will not be arriving in New York soon, George suggests they pose as O’Brien and his colleague and take the limo home. George assumes the identity of O’Brien, and Jerry makes up the name Dylan Murphy. The chauffeur lets them into the limo and says he has the four passes. George remembers the Knicks are playing the Bulls that night at MSG. Excited at the prospect of seeing the game live, Jerry calls Elaine on the limo’s phone and tells her to wait with Kramer for them to pick them up for the game, and to call him and George by their pseudonyms. |
This is silly. From the OP’s article abstract, “In particular, we identify two major attractors of opinion: (i) the expert effect, induced by the presence of a highly confident individual in the group, and (ii) the majority effect, caused by the presence of a critical mass of laypeople sharing similar opinions. Additional simulations reveal the existence of a tipping point at which one attractor will dominate over the other, driving collective opinion in a given direction. These findings have implications for understanding the mechanisms of public opinion formation and managing conflicting situations in which self-confident and better informed minorities challenge the views of a large uninformed majority.” >>>>>I say it’s silly because everybody and his brother knows you cannot change an audiophile’s belief no matter how many people try to convince him. It’s call the Backfire Effect. I’m not even talking about pseudo skeptics who will never change their beliefs, no matter what, it would be too embarrassing. Think of what their friends would say. I’m talking the average audiophile, not newbies, who hold certain beliefs. And they have reasons for those beliefs. But when people try to convince him that his beliefs are wrong he holds on to those beliefs even closer. That’s the Backfire Effect. When it comes to experts audiophiles are a little bit cynical and most of them would agree an expert is someone who used to be drip under pressure. We don’t need no stinking experts! As for the so called Majority Effect that cannot work either because it’s been proven, they’re like cats, you can’t herd Audiophiles. As for the Professional Pseudo Skeptics, it’s like Charles Manson opined, you can’t kill kill. |
atdavid--"If I have any goal at all, it is to help other people not fool themselves." And you have just proven my point in my last post. Lordy, I have been rescued from the darkness and see the light....! Like I said, just another guy in a long line of guys who fancy themselves as audio saviors telling people they’re not really hearing what they hear. |
If I have any goal at all, it is to help other people not fool themselves." Yeah... that’s always what they say when they post this stuff all over the Internet. Good Samaritans saving people from spending their money. But is it really the reason they do this? Some of them full time, in all audio groups. Do they have an agenda? Some type of guerrilla warfare marketing for whatever they are selling, be it acoustic panels, cheap class D amps, questionable cheap China copy cats? Or is it simply sense of irrelevance and self-awareness steaming from inability to own and enjoy decent gear? Just ask them what their system is. This question alone will drive them crazy and over the cliffs |
It’s the old James Randi scam, just on a cheaper scale. When Randi couldn’t get any more action from drunks, dowsers and spoon benders he got the brilliant idea to go after audiophiles. And an excellent idea it was! It makes sense when you think about. From the skeptics’ point of view how can cables sound different? How can quantum mechanics have anything to do with sound? How can audiophiles be so gosh darn sure of what they hear? Enter the Million Dollar Blind Test Scam, I mean Challenge. News Flash!! The AES is not (rpt not) made up of audiophiles. It’s made up of....pseudo skeptics. |
When it comes to Audio Engineering Society, I have been on audiogon long enough to think I am qualified to participate... http://www.aes.org/blog/2019/10/microagressionsinaudiosurvey |
LMAO. Good point GK! 😁😁 Glupson. Not so good point. Soothing the soul is just an expression thar nose! And it was/is my opinion that it is the best way to start my day before the hapless clowns get on a real roll. All just opinions ya see. A little like onions now I think about it. Many layers. Oops paraphrasing Shrek. My bad..... |
uberwaltz, Don’t get me wrong, but your post about pointless blathering was no more on point than any of geoffkait’s, mine, or anybody else’s posts in this thread. Even your report about what you are doing now could not pass into The Science of Opinion. It was pointless blathering, as far as this thread is concerned. Good news is that this thread is made for pointless blathering so nobody will be bothered by your posts, either. There are many on-point threads on audiogon where people discuss things that can be discussed. You participate in them and gain something. At the same time, there are threads like this that may be pointless from the title to your last post. Having said that, what is your opinion about Ethan Winer? |
I see the usual suspects are overly triggered this morning. I had some fun, got a run, in, had a wonderful breakfast with my wife, and all the while you guys were being keyboard warriors. Priority mates ;-) geoff, please keep insulting the Audio Engineering Society (AES) and calling them pseudo-skeptics. I am sure when the average joe looks for audio advice he will take that of a guy selling magic pebbles over a group of actually recognized experts ... nice to see you have your PhD in psychology and/or behavioural sciences now as well. Unfortunately, you probably don’t so that negates us having some interesting discussions on the topic. Oh well .... your "backfire effect" is old news. I know, already huh? It was an interesting theory, and there may be instances, but overall, it has been shown in larger studies to be .... wait for it .... wait for it .... wait for it .... false http://educationblog.oup.com/theory-of-knowledge/facts-matter-after-all-rejecting-the-backfire-effe... There are many other supporting articles, so don’t take my one link for it, research it yourself. But even if partially true, I don’t go on forums to convert ostriches. They are a lost cause. I come to forums to help, even discuss with the vast majority that are truly interested in the best sound they can achieve for a given dollar, most of who just read but never post. The ones who go, "Hey, ya, why are there no blind listening tests by suppliers in whole audio categories if their claims of differences are so substantial", but also the ones who need guidance so they spend money on things that will truly make a difference like speakers and room treatment. They may not know how foolish it is to wax poetically about how the latest fuse or cable change totally improved sound-stage and imaging, meanwhile room acoustics are so poor that good imaging will never happen, and compared to the rest of the system, the speakers are in serious need of an upgrade. And t_ramey, call it saviour complex all you like, most call it being a decent human when you help others. Would you tell an auto-mechanic or automotive engineer they have saviour complex when they tell someone on a forum, that no, the latest 200mpg "gadget" is just like all the ones before it, bunk? Or maybe the electrical engineer who tells the potential mark, that no, that magic PFC device that someone wants to charge you $400 for is not going to save you 20-30% on electricity and likely won’t make any difference you will notice because North American residential electricity is sold on kWh, not kVA? Do they have saviour complex as well, or are they just putting their expertise to good public service and helping their extended neighbour? Who knows, maybe you are one of those people who rails against the Doctor who publicly and often tells people to get vaccinated because yes, herd immunity matters, or the medical researcher who jumps on forums and claims, quite correctly, that so many "alternate medicines" don’t help, and not getting proper treatment could endanger you. This "magical thinking" is not the exclusive domain of the the poor, the less intelligent, or the less educated. In fact, it appears to strike those of above average intelligence and accomplishment more, as they are more convinced of their own superiority. A few year back, someone was diagnosed with a form of pancreatic cancer. Fortunately for them, that form of cancer was one of the least aggressive forms of pancreatic cancer with a high success rate of cure. Their doctors recommended immediate surgery. Their family and friends encouraged them as well. Believing they knew better than doctors, instead, they started a regimen of acupuncture, supplements, and alternative dietary interventions. By the time they accepted that alternative treatments were not working, the cancer had spread and no amount of money could save them. Not some average joe, Steve Jobs. So the next time you through around a term like saviour complex, remember, that even the best and brightest need to be reminded at times that they are wearing no clothes. |
I am pretty sure we had already established LONG ago that this whole thread was pointless and should just remain for the comedic value only. Or maybe that was just my opinion. Hard to tell really. However as far as music goes, I have already shifted into high gear and am enjoying my view of you all in the rear view mirror. Adios amigos. 🚗🚗🚗🚗🚗 |
Maybe you were up earlier. I think geoff goes to bed at 9pm. I was up early enough, I just have a better handle on what really matters based on the posts I see here. That old adage about the early bird gets the worm, or that early risers are more accomplished and get more done ..... just another old wives tail. It’s the people who stay up late that get more done. Oh, and if this thread is of no value, why do you post in it soooo often? Maybe it matters to you, but you don't want to admit it, even to yourself? |
I think in modern day parlance, what he was doing (pointless blathering) was virtue signalling. He was trying to signal his virtue, that virtue of being "above it all" while the rest of us are just cretins shouting among ourselves here. The repeated posts in this thread on a balance of evidence negate that virtue. glupson2,826 posts11-09-2019 11:19amuberwaltz, |
I see the usual suspects are overly triggered this morning. I had some fun, got a run, in, had a wonderful breakfast with my wife, and all the while you guys were being keyboard warriors. Look who’s talking about keyboard warriors! You just wrote a thesis, right now. And you just joined Audiogon (under this handle at least), and have already written over 200 posts. In a few days, you will have more posts than me, and I joined in 2005. I don’t go on forums to convert ostriches. They are a lost cause. I come to forums to help, even discuss with the vast majority that are truly interested in the best sound they can achieve for a given dollar, most of who just read but never post And who the f**k are you? Who gave you the authority? |
By the authority invested in the internet, I hereby grant you the ability to say and do whatever you want, within the bounds of local laws and the rules of the platform of your choice, always with the understanding that you accept whatever backlash may result. thyname, in years I have never seen you illustrate a willingness to learn, What has changed? I thought you already knew who I am? |
Maybe I have more to contribute?
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Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...... You have officially bored me sleep. It was fun for a bit. Now it’s a petty annoyance. So, you continue to believe in your holy cause to convert the ignorant masses, and I shall continue to enjoy music and ignore you. I’m with uber, Beatles it is! One final word-no. No you really don't. |
thyname, "In a few days, you will have more posts than me, and I joined in 2005."Be careful, you are running too fast. Since the beginning of this thread, you posted 35 times on this thread while atdavid did 46. Since the beginning of this thread, November 5, 2019, you posted 64 times on all audiogon threads while atdavid did it 98 times. He did it on wider variety of threads, though, spreading posts. You are surely not a slacker when it comes to posting. At least not recently. What happened since 2005? How come you are so active now? |
@glupson, *L* I’ve been busy with the boring real life concerns for the most part. That, and I recognized early that this thread had all the earmarks (pun intended) of heading off into infinity (6 pages and growing). At least the title holds true; there’s certainly been a lot of opinion. Perhaps not so scientific, but...it’s an open forum with a wide open door. Some are dead serious, some horrendously hilarious, with a sprinkling of raised fur and snarl for spice. I came by late last night to scan from the beginning. That, in itself, took awhile. We certainly disagree. At best, we agree to disagree but the snarling episodes override the basic civility that we ought to keep in mind. I know I have a marked tendency to drop by various forums and wisecrack (or not so wise; one can’t be ’spot on’ All the time). And anytime GK yells "Jerry!" previously, I have this ’knee jerk’ response that’s kinda understandable. But I’ve successfully clenched my fingers to stay off the keys.... But.....MHO...considering the OP’s link @ the beginning of All This (pointing up towards all the previous posts)... We have met the ’enemy’...and They is Us. It's that damn bell curve, yet again. *sigh* (@asvjerry joins the lemmings and jumps off the cliff into The Void) |
And yet you felt the need to virtue signal your departure. Would you like to take your ball with you too?
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Ah sorry to have missed all the fun, mowing two acres of grass. Maybe I do not have my priorities right? All I can say is you have some very stranges notions Atdavid? Not saying bad just strange. I am afraid I just do not think about my posting on such a deep level as you seem to think people do. I will flow with Elizabeth on this one. I ain't got no life. WTH would I be here if I did? 🤔🤔 |
Bringing out my handy dandy mirror: - geoffkait with over 18,000 posts is certainly not here to "learn"- thyname with so many posts in so few days with so few topics ... is not here to learn- uberwalz ... 8,000 posts I am honest about what draws me to audio-forums; share knowledge, but I will also engage people on discussions of euphonics, i.e. around turntables, etc. trying to gleam some tidbit of knowledge about how to translate what a turntable does, to how people perceive it, and how to adapt that to listening experiences. If you have thousands and thousand of posts, you are not here "to learn", you are here to banter, and to tell other people what you know. I am being honest with myself ... some others should try it sometimes. It will probably make you less angry :-) |
I beg to differ. I have learnt so much from this forum and still do, anybody who thinks they have nothing more to learn is a complete fool to themselves no matter how many posts they have! Now that would be in " other" forums. Just look at some of the threads I have created, the vast majority aimed at learning something or another. As I already stated. I consider this thread to be pointless, yes, but still of comedic value. Hence why myself and a few others I suspect are still posting here. Nothing more on my end except perhaps boredom? Oh btw it may surprise you to know that whilst one is seated listening to music they can actually simultaneously post here from a mobile device. So do not credit yourself with thinking people are going out of their way to engage in banter here. As I said boredom is certainly part of it and amusement as to what some people will say next! Do not forget opinions are like aholes, everybody has one but at least the latter are useful 100%of the time. |