I recently completed a several year quest to acquire a new cartridge. This quest was basically a major PITA and a nightmare!
Why? Well let’s take a look at what will be in store for all cartridge buyers’ in the US...and possibly other countries as well..IF they are seeking a top flite cartridge , like I was.
Firstly, and here’s where a big part of the problem lies: You will typically be unable to audition any cartridge under consideration...certainly not in your own home and more often than not, at your dealers either.
Then we have the fact that these products are closely monitored for who and whom can act as a dealer...which is then severally restricted by territory and distribution. We then add that the pricing is very well controlled...CAN WE SAY PRICE FIXING...which in most states is an illegal practice...but seems to be the rule here.
Let’s begin with my story...and then I am hoping that members will chime in here with their thoughts and probably also their own ’horror stories’....
About three years ago, I decided to acquire a cartridge that would replace my aging but still ok Benz Ruby 2... I wanted a cartridge that would surpass that Benz in most areas...and one that would be priced at about $3-$5K. A lot of money to be spending on this piece of gear...or so I believed.
At the time, I was considering the following models....Benz LPS MR, Koetsu Urushi and Rosewood Platinum and the Lyra Kleos, Delos, a EMT, the Kiseki Purpleheart, Air Tight ( entry level model at the time..cannot remember what it was called) an Ortofon A90--and a Transfiguration Proteus--lastly one of the ZYX models. After some research, i discovered that the Ortofon’s, the Zyx’s and the Transfigurations wouldn’t work with my set up --due to too low an output by the respective cartridges for my all tube phono stage. So this left the Kiseki, the Koetsu’s, the Lyra’s and the Benz’s...and possibly the Air Tight model.
Circumstances changed and my cartridge buying escapade was put on hold...until a few months back. In the few years since my last foray, I find out that Benz have basically gone out of business ( again!!) and so has Transfiguration. Meanwhile, the Van Den Hul line has come into the US again...this time with a new distributor. The Zyx line has totally been updated and the Lyra line is now more available than before...at least in theory. The Koetsu are now handled by Music Direct...who have essentially doubled the pricing across the board! Oh, i forgot, the Lyra line has increased by about 25% across the board ( i don’t think inflation can account for this!!) So where to start auditioning --the answer...nowhere! Instead I am supposed to rely on various dealers enthusiastic recommendation for these products...except for the fact that one dealer tells me that Koetsu’s are the best thing since mothers milk- and the other tells me that Koetsu’s are horrible with all the faults under the sun...( at least the ones that are in my budget..see above!) Can I hear any of these for myself...either in my system, or at the respective dealers...heck NO! ( and don’t think this type of scenario/ behavior isn’t consistent for other brands as well!--irrespective of whether the dealer(s) carries said brand or not!).
Here I am left with the choice of dropping several thousand dollars on a product that a) has no ability to be heard in my own system..therefore having no clue as to the results that I will get, b) has absolutely no return policy c) can be easily damaged by myself or others in the case of incorrect mounting to the tonearm...and lastly...and this is the one that really annoys me the most: I must shop for these products at a very limited amount of vendors who all are naysaying their competitors and acting extremely unprofessionally in the process. ( Do i really have to talk to the prospective rep for the line in order to determine the compatibility of the cartridge under question with my arm, the reasoning behind the asked price, where the dealer is that should be selling me the piece in question ( so as not to cross territorial lines) and on and on!!)
Then we have this little bonbon...The damn Japanese sourced cartridge(s) is available on several Japanese web sites at a price that is usually 50 -60% of the retail price here in the USA!! And that price in Japan is still at FULL RETAIL! ( Yes, I know it cost a ton of money to ship these things from Japan to here ( since they weigh a ton), LOL).
Where does this leave the US consumer in regards to the acquisition of a top flite cartridge...IMO the answer is between a hard place and a rock..You either pay through the nose and get totally ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and the various small independent reps in the US for these cartridges, or you takes your choice and risk buying from a grey market vendor abroad...but at a fraction of the price! BTW, mysteriously most of the top flite Benz cartridges continue to be very available from a vendor in China who seems to have cornered the market?? What’s up with this??
I can go on and about this journey, as I have just began to scratch the top of the heap in this story, but let’s hear from you guys as to your experiences and thoughts.... Was your top flite cartridge acquisition an equal nightmare, or was it something else?
But perhaps we do need to add that there is indeed a service that the dealer can bring to the table...and that is after sale service. In the case of the cartridge, i think if they set it up on the table and do the necessary alignment etc, then this service does indeed have value. I don't think any of us would disagree that this particular service has value. Whether that value extends to thousands of dollars is another question?
This is a perfectly normal and legitimate thread. The approach to that is a personal choice - some just buy, others just not, yet others buy many used one by one and then choose. There are few real dealers left. And if I can't audition cartridge I don't need dealers and distributors, I should be able to buy directly from manufacturers. Too many people collect money while doing little or nothing.
I always find it amusing when we begin to pontificate on the economics of this business. Given how easy it is to produce high-end, boutique offerings for a limited market, the logistics around supporting the finicky retail consumer of said offerings, and the outrageous profit margins (both from the manufacturer and the retailer), I'll expect a flood of new cartridge offerings (and direct-to-consumer networks) from budding start-ups in the next few months. Can't wait!!!
Get a Shelter Harmony for ~$3600 from a Japanese importer like Audiocubes2 (yeah, gray market, but what good is a warranty on a cartridge?), and be happy.
And I like Koetsu also, but I heard that Koetsu stopped distributing cartridges within Japan itself, so flying to Japan for Koetsu won't really get you a great deal. You should fly to Singapore instead, for that.
I’ve never auditioned any new High-End cartridges i have bought in the past, simply because local distributors always asking double price for everything that can be purchased online, and i don’t want to buy from them anyway.
I’ve been disappointed comparing very expensive New High-End cartridges to less expensive carefully selected vintage high-end cartridges in my own system. Each time the difference is sound quality was not as big as the difference in price between new and vintage nos or even used.
Later i discovered some amazing vintage cartridges, thanks to all contributors on this forum in MM thread. I am still looking for some rare gems to buy them, to try them, to learn more about this subject. They are all more or less affordable compared to overpriced new high-end cartridges. My limit is $1500 max, normally all my favorite vintage carts are under $1k (no matter MC, MI or MM) and i have already tried brand new high-end carts with price tag up to $5k. It was great experience, expensive, but very important experience to understand that my nirvana with phono cartridges can be reached with 1.5k budget estimated.
I know it’s my old mantra, but it’s true.
I have no idea why people spending $5-15k on carts to get hurt. Hope i will not jump in this category even in the next 15 years.
As someone already said, there is nothing in cartridge engineering that should cost that much, really.
anyone who is losing big $$ on a whim like this, probably won’t be continuing to do that for too long, before the house gets foreclosed on...IMHO.
I suspect no one purchasing kilo buck hi fi is in any risk of foreclosure. Now if on the other hand people leased high end hi fi! (sez I as a former Angeleno who was amazed at the cars everyone drove whether they could afford it or not)
And personally I don’t think of it as a whim, more a learning experience and part of the fun of the hobby 🤪
And by the way, have you ever purchased high end furniture? Multi month lead times, crazy prices , and zero resale value ... puts audio to shame ...
@tastyfreeze.what homework are you going to do if you want to acquire a My Sonic Lab, as an example.... read the many reviews, talk to the many owners, listen at your friendly My Sonic Lab dealer, try one of their cartridges on your table...any other homework that you can enlighten us about regarding this particular line...
and this line happens to be one of many that are similar in their distribution and availability.
I’ve been trying to get my Van Den Hul cart rebuilt by VDH what a pain in the you now what. I’m on the west coast of Canada by the way. I asked VDH if I could send the cart directly to them for the rebuild. They said no it has to go through the USA distributor (who is on the southern east coast of the USA by the way) So i’d have to send my cart through two international boarders there and back ,like that wont be risky. I have to pay someone a % for the rebuild in another country. Its just not worth it to me its a sham IMO.
I really like the VDH carts I just wont give a % for someone forwarding my mail. Don’t get me wrong I always support my local audio shops but i’m not one for giving money for doing absolutely nothing (I know they are taking on the product to sell). Looks like i’m moving on from VDH (unless I by new again) as I wont deal with multiple countries for my service work. Unless the USA is the destination of course nothing against you folks in the USA. maybe soundsmith can re-tip and re-suspension?
Also Canada has a trade agreement with the EU its actually better duty wise for me to deal directly but VDH doesn’t want to hurt their USA distributor.
The distributor should not be in the loop for repair services for out of warranty items period IMO...well unless you want them to be but your paying for that service.
If I was buying new then yeah the dealer-distributor is in the loop.
I agree with many here Cart prices are ridiculous there is no amount of engineering that can justify $20000 carts Really a car has way more engineering in it then any Cart or any other component for that mater how they can charge what they do is only because the wealthy have driven up the prices. One manufacturer said its easier to sell 6 to the wealthy then 60 to the rest for the same profit.
If you want to see what it takes to build a cart there is an interesting video were AJ Van Den Hul takes you step by step through the whole process all through his micro scope was eye opening. its on youtube.
I apologize for violating my own policy and responding with reason and emotion to (what I consider to be) a silly thread. I will avoid feeding the creature from here on forward.
@br3098, Typical,whenever the poster cannot come up with a reasonable or logical response, out comes the ‘troll’ word.Pathetic.
@tablejockey yes, that is what typically occurs in this cartridge buying experience, you take a leap of faith and hope for the best...is that situation really acceptable to you when acquiring a multi thousand dollar cartridge? Remember, the high end cartridge market is going to be seeing cartridges that are priced above $20k in no time. IMO, and I know I’m in the minority here, but anyone who is losing big $$ on a whim like this, probably won’t be continuing to do that for too long, before the house gets foreclosed on...IMHO.
I don’t Think it’s fair at all to call the OP a troll. I don’t like getting ripped off and I don’t like the direction that the high end industry is going in in the last 15 years I’ve been involved.
...my Koetsu dealer told me that it is actually cheaper to fly into Japan for a few days, buy the cartridge there and enjoy the visit, than it is to get ripped off by the likes of Music Direct and their repacious profiteering with these cartridges.
Go for it. I have travelled to Japan many times and some gear is more expensive there than it is here. I do not know if this is true for Koetsu or not. And Music Direct is not the only dealer for Koetsu in the U.S.
I haven't been an audio dealer for several years. While I always look for the best deal, I pay retail just like you do.
Dare I say start streaming with a higher end sreamer. Remember you will NEVER achieve the same fidelity as the original recording. No matter how much $ you spend.
...since many of you seem to have no problem with being completely ripped off in this endeavor...
If you have a better way to offer high-end cartridges to the select few high-end audio buyer, please put your money where your "mouth" is and show us old farts how it should work. Otherwise you're just whining...
Firstly, please don’t think I am looking for advice in this thread. I know exactly what I’m doing in this hobby... you get that way after about forty years in it. What the point of my OP was... and is.: is that I think it is about time someone disclosed the various issues and other problems associated with acquiring a top flite cartridge in the US. OTOH, since many of you seem to have no problem with being completely ripped off in this endeavor, please disregard my thread.
@daveyf i really don’t understand what your problem is. At this level one would presume you have a good understanding of a) the house sound of different cartridge vendors and b) your own preferences and c) the technical compatibility of your arm.
Reviews and trusted commentators on boards such as these can them let you narrow down to a cartridge family that suits your needs. Only them do you engage the dealer and the conversation should all be about entering at the appropriate level and having good trade up options within the family. Dealers won’t give unbiased advice on comparisons but why would you expect them to? Shows likewise are pretty useless given all the variables in play. Oddly one thing a show can tell you is something about manufacturing tolerances if you closely inspect how the carts are installed (especially azimuth) However, once you’ve settled on a family then developing a close relationship with a dealer or, where appropriate, the importer will pay dividends. If you’re really not sure what you want then either purchase the base models to mess around with, or experiment with used examples until you find the family sound you like.
In my experience I moved from a used Lyra to an Atlas and then an AirTight PC1 as I was looking at the time for something with more body. As my tonearms got better I heard more of the coloration in the AirTight sound and then made a move to Acoustical Systems Palladian based on on line comments from posters whom I trust and have steered me well in the past. I bought this direct from the US distributor without even having seen or heard it but found its sound matched the online comments and reviews to a tee. An advantage of the AS line is that the EU prices equal the US so you don’t need to feel hard done by 🤨
So overall there is no simple answer, cartridge buying is basically a money pit in which the first time you play the cartridge 50% of its value evaporates. If that bothers you then don’t play the game.
great post..:0(, so that I understand your points.. its no problem for you to blow thousands of your ‘hard earned’ dollars on a POS cartridge, just so long as your friendly local dealer had given it their blessing. If it turned out you blew your money, well no biggie as that’s what real men do in this hobby, am I reading your post right, Lmao.
Given your last post, I can see that you have absolutely no clue as to what the high end cartridge consumer is faced with.
With all due respect, that's BS. I'm a high-end cartridge consumer. I will admit that I have no clue as to what your problem is. High-end audio is not a game for wimps. It requires you to do your homework, deal with people and vendors that you trust then take a leap of faith and make a frigging decision, often times based on less than ideal information.
If you can't won't do that there are lots of "safe" (aka less expensive) options. There are no guarantees in this hobby.
The Van Den Hul you brought from overseas, did you happen to check on the serial number as to the age and specific model that it was? Not saying that the US dealers aren't applying an enormous markup, just that you may not be getting what you think you are from these grey market vendors. If you are ok with that, so be it.
Given your last post, I can see that you have absolutely no clue as to what the high end cartridge consumer is faced with.
@dgarretson
I think this gives one a very generic and basic starting point. I don’t know about you, but I am VERY uncomfortable about dropping thousands of $$ on a cartridge, simply because I heard it at a show once and that was on unfamiliar gear and in an unfamiliar setting. There are numerous variables with these cartridges that need to be considered, and not the least is how it interacts ( has synergy) with your table and arm. What are the odds that the demo you heard at a show is utilizing the same table and arm as you are? Sorry to break your illusion, but I have heard the Lyra Etna and the ART 9 in a familiar system, to my ears, there was really no comparison...the Etna was in a different league all together...as it should be for the price difference.
@dgarretson + 100! @daveyf sure look brand new to me! Also the guy i sold it to destroyed it while installing it and even though it wasn’t warranty covered the guy I bought it from treated him very well. When I purchased it he told me I had a full warranty. I also had the option to send it back at 100 hours for a tuneup at no charge. Basically all the same service I would’ve received had I paid three times the amount from an American dealer.
Go to a major audio show like Axpona that is full of great analog rigs. Listen to the boutique cartridges and query exhibitors about their cartridge preferences and purchasing sources.
Alternatively, stick with a vetted, boilerplate, high-end MC like the Audio Technica ART7 or ART9. I have the ART7. It is 90% of my Lyra Etna at 15% of the cost. You don’t need to worry about how good the ART-series will sound in your system. Purchase it on-line for as little as you can from 2juki, Thakker, or any bona fide source.
daveyf, yes I read everyone's comments that were before my response. I didn't quote you specifically because mine was more of a general response. But I feel that my comments apply to your post as well. You are complaining about cartridge availability, demo availability, "price fixing" and dealer pricing.
I believe that my comments are relevant to your post.
Years ago, I was cartridge shopping and wanted to hear a couple of carts. At this time, I was dealing with Galen Carol. He had two of the carts I was considering (used) and offered to send them to me, at my expense. What a great guy!
@br3098 Did you actually read my OP. Seems not, because we are talking about cartridges here and not other gear!
Saying these cartridges are 'readily available' is a joke. Tells me that you haven't been cartridge shopping recently, at least for anything above $500-! Plus, the option of hearing the cartridges that I am referring to in the dealers' showroom is basically non existent. So, let's not be calling people a bunch of whiny b1tches if you are clueless about where they are coming from.
Looking at the needle doctor return policy that you posted, i noticed some very interesting verbiage about what is excluded...would seem to me to cover cartridges ( they say 'all other one time use products'...is that a cartridge??) Special orders ( probably most Koetsu's etc) Still risky IMO. Have you, or anybody that you know, actually taken advantage of this policy?
Jeez, what a bunch of whiny b1thches! You guys need to grow a pair and put on some big boy pants.
I'm not going to defend uber-priced cartridges. I will say that if you can make a top-flight MC cartridge for less money, please go ahead. And I won't defend the distributor/dealer system, which certainly contributes to higher prices. But without it we wouldn't have an expansive audio business in the U.S. Why do you guys think that distributors exist? They put up capital (lots of $$$) to have products that you want to buy readily available. Manufacturers and dealers both rely on distribution for most products, and without a robust distribution network there wouldn't be a retail audio business.
As a former audio dealer myself, I am going to defend dealers. Why doesn't one of you brave commenters put your time, money and reputation where your mouth (actually, fingers) is/are and become a dealer for, let's say, twenty audio products that would constitute a complete audio system: turntables, tonearms, cartridges, phono stages, preamps, amps and speakers. Then add (at least) fifty other products that you need to carry in order to complete the sale. Remember, you will need at least one to show and one to go for each product; probably more. You have a nice space to demo your gear, right? And insurance, an advertising/marketing budget and at least one under-compensated employee on salary, right? And if you are lucky, only every fourth or fifth customer will want to return a brand new product (after you have spent hours demoing the product in your demo room and maybe in the customer's home) just because he decided that he didn't like it after all and the CC company says that he can return anything for any reason within the first 30 (or sometimes 60) days. So you now have a new product that you have spent what, ten hours or more trying to sell, that you now have to sell as a dealer demo or maybe a used product at par or a loss.
Do you really believe that you will show what anyone would consider a reasonable profit after the first year? After the second? Ever?
Audio dealers are not angels and not all dealers are for all buyers. But before you criticize you should walk a mile in their shoes. As the guy who has to pay the bills and the salaries of the poor mistreated employees.
Sorry, but you would be asking for trouble by doing what you suggest. IMHO, IF you buy a cartridge like a Koetsu on somebody's recommendation or a review ( regardless of the amount of research you have done)-- you are taking a BIG risk. Here's why, you mount the cartridge on your arm, you listen...and oh shoot, the thing sounds like sh---t. what now? Sell it with x number of hours on it at a huge discount, or maybe keep it and start to change out your ancillary gear...in a long and costly voyage to try and get something that will play nice with it? You tell me...
BTW, I still am curious why this one vendor in China seems to have a 'lock' on selling Benz's...and it's not 2juki; although he is on this forum. ( Sells other high end cartridges at considerable discounts too...way less than authorized dealers?). But good luck to you if you buy from him and have a problem!
@analogluvr
The Van Den Hul dealers in the US claim that the vendor in the Netherlands is NOT selling you a new Van Den Hul! Instead it is a very used model that has been 'refurbished' and freshened up. The serial number on the box will tell you the age....and the age of these cartridges is anything BUT recent!! ...and of course IF you buy one of these, they are NOT covered under the warranty in the US. ( Therefore NO dealer support).
If you are a music lover, it takes years to choose a cartridge because of the many different personalities of cartridges.
Most of the comments seem to indicate there is some kind of absolute value that can be attributed to cartridges that can be measured on an objective scale.
I wouldn't take anyone's word for "their best cartridge"; they are assuming they're ears like my music, or my ears like they're music, or what kind of music you like doesn't matter. However, there is a method of getting good advice from professional reviewers.
Let's say you are interested in "Koetsu Urishi"; the very first thing you do is find reviews of this cartridge where your favorite music is reviewed.
Based on this review, I would buy this cartridge today if it was in my price range; that's because of the music that was reviewed. Naturally I know a whole lot more than that about Koetsu, but when my favorite music is reviewed, I'm positively sure that I'm at the end of the line in my selection. Of course this is after you have taken into consideration all of the other factors necessary.
@cleeds in my experience that is simply not true. I have a few friends who are dealers and The Profit is usually around closer to 40% And often times all they do is put in an order and give you the merchandise when it comes in.
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