The "most foolish" loudspeaker tweak/upgrade ... is

In the many forums that I have read, one goes away more bewildered than before reading them or entering into the discussion, because there is always those “experts” whose egos are so fragile as to fight to the end to make others see their point of view . . . and then subject themselves to their “superiors”, which in human nature rarely occurs, at least, not without a fight to the bitter end . . . and by the way, who ever actually wins?

How does one draw a conclusion that another individual’s hearing apparatus even operates the same as yours? Hearing frequencies can be tested, but starting with the shape of the external ears, which greatly differ from one individual to another, surely effects the beginning of sound production just as cupping the hands behind the ears or the wearing of earmuffs would change one’s perception.

I think there are devoted men, who are truly dedicated in the production of great products, but there are just as many unscrupulous people out to make a buck at the buyer’s expense. If you have the resources to afford the product and having a more expensive cable in your system floats your boat -- good for you, for you see, even among luxury cars, those who are loyal to one brand are going to defend the ride and performance regardless. Some things just come down to preference . . . and test results make prove a product to be superior in many ways, but if the convinced owner is convinced otherwise, you are wasting your breath to argue with them -- nobody actually wins.

For those who cannot afford to buy $39k plus for wire and would rather eat . . . the arguing is a mute point. Wear your designer clothes with the labels or logos on the outside of the garment so everyone can be impressed . . . besides, part of the fun of experimentation and the illusion produced is convincing oneself that you have made a great improvement and if others could only see and hear your choices . . . surely they too would become the enlightened ones also.

I truly believe that people hear differences, but regardless, it still comes down to what you prefer, what you can afford, and with what you can be content with as opposed to what you seemingly would prefer, but can never afford. For the tweaker, the fun is the discovery of a tweak here and a tweak there that makes them perceived great gains and therefore thinking they saved themselves a bundle and achieved the same results as someone who plunked down hundreds of thousands of dollars and is satisfied with their brand new toy.

There is always the frustration of the “seeker of the best” in this month’s magazine of experts, who often disagree among themselves from one magazine to another, much less from article to article, only to find the next month that your purchase has been reduced to number two or worse -- so, when does cost effectiveness take precedent over prestige and ego? Probably never, for a percentage of the pride of ownership lies in the quest for the “Superior Buyer of the Year Award” or becoming the recipient of the “Sucker of the Year Award” . . . do they still hand out those awards or has that too become politically incorrect?

Hard to believe some people on this forum are legitimizing Von Schweikert Audio's "ULTRA Internal Wire Upgrade" for $39,700.  If I owned these speakers I'd be insulted by Von Schwiekert coming up with this internal wire upgrade offer.  How did they not get the correct internal wire voiced at design & build time?  These speakers ain't that old to claim that internal speaker wires have made giant leaps & bounds in the past 5 years.  

The real losers are people that own these speakers when they try to sell them as prospective buyers won't want to settle for the non-upgraded version.  Great reason to cross Von Schwiekert off my personal list of manufacturer's that protect the investments of their clients.

Nuts 🥜 

Cables, amongst others, is a very personal thing and the justification for the spend on it is probably even more so depending upon one's perception of value. So, I for one, will not comment on why someone would spend $ 39k on internal wiring upgrade. Forget that, the MB ultra loom, whole hog, will probably put one back by more than $150k. What do people have to say to that.........you see, there's never an end to this.

and to whoever saying that spending $300 on power cords or cables is sensible, there is someone out there who will call that utterly foolish too..... so is a 39 k upgrade worthy? Yes maybe, for someone who has the means and the willingness to spend. I for one am a convert and do believe cable upgrades make an audible and significant difference and have spent a very significant amount on upgrades.. Am I willing to pay 39k for an internal wiring upgrade? - No......but that's me.

The speakers own magnetic field from the magnet should not effect the internal wire unless that wire is moving. you need a wire moving in a magnetic field to induce a current/voltage with out a moving magnetic field or moving wire in a magnetic field you get nothing. so if for example the wire was pulsing with the air movement then yes you could get induction. I think you would get more from external sources like all the emi from the world like radio/ radar/ac line voltage in your homes ac system and the power co transmission lines. I've worked with systems in the Navy that detect various RF/EMI and you'd be shocked at how much we are be bombarded with daily. you just can not get away from it regardless where you are on the planet, less of course in remote areas but never zero (sun bathes us in a lot for that mater)

"Ideal would be no wires between components and no wire can add something that is not there to begin with"

This theory can be tested, the Digital Audio Company makes monoblocks called "In Line Maraschino amps", that are so small & light they can be hung off the back of a speaker at the binding posts with just a couple of inches of wire. Compare the sound of them hanging off the posts and then connect an 8' pair of cables, is there a difference?

Alpha gt,  IMHO you are correct.  'To each his own':  I would only add that, as members of the human race with our foibles and our sense of humour, we will make fun of silliness whenever we can.  For my own part if I ever bought such cables I would expect to be laughed at.

Alpha gt - You have put into words the most logical explanation of wires i have ever seen on a forum . "Ideal would be no wires between components and no wire can add something that is not there to begin with"    Perfect statements !

FWIW, I dont really care how mucfh a person spends on speaker wire, which seems to be the  most answers, to the OP's question, so I'll give my humble opinion. I would totally forgo any cable upgrade until my ROOM was at its absolute best configuration, I.E treated for sound. Thats also a very inexpensive fix to improve on any, and I mean any speakers performance in a given room. After that I would obtain the least expensive, reputable cable i could afford and I will venture to say that a relatively reasonable priced cable will really satisfy. Of course if you have unlimited resourches go for it.

ptss
30K for wire. They should quite using chip board  boxes, that might be worth a few $$$

Suppose you could place an amp and speaker so that the terminals on the amp touched the terminals on the speaker. No wires at all. Would this not be the perfect setup? As good as it could get, no wire at all, and what some wire makers strive to achieve. I'm speaking in generalities here, no wire in particular, inside, outside, whichever. But it is impractical to place your amp and the speaker cone touching each other, so a length of wire is needed. Any change in sound that occurs once you've introduced a length of wire is strictly less than the no wire senerio. It cannot create anything new in the signal, it can only subtract. So, designing wires is strictly a subtractive process, what frequencies will be reduced more than the others? What effect will capacitance, inductance and resistance have on the sound? These are the properties of the wire that would not be there if things were perfect, And the amp was connected directly to the speaker with no wire. So, wire companies do research, and experiment with different metals and materials to see just what will happen. What subtraction will have the most pleasing sound. Remember, wires cannot make sound, they cannot add anything to the presentation. Only subtract. The materials that wires are made from are not inherently expensive, so the bulk of the money spent on them is to pay the researchers for their time, and intellect. Whether you think the price asked is worth their time and intellect is completely subjective. To each his own. 

@cdwallace3 Not quite. The primary factor (imo) is speaker efficiency.

If you have 102db/1w speakers (as I do), then their sensitivity to upstream changes are huge.

The more efficient your speakers, the more revealing they are.

That said, you’re not going to find high efficiency speakers that cover a large frequency range w/o spending a fair sum.

I got really lucky and got a pair of eXemplar Horns used. John Tucker won’t build another pair for less than $35k these days.

I agree geoffkait. Electro was missing :( 

From our friend Wikipedia,

"Twisted pair cabling is a type of wiring in which two conductors of a single circuit are twisted together for the purposes of canceling out electromagnetic interference (EMI) from external sources; for instance, electromagnetic radiation from unshielded twisted pair (UTP) cables, and crosstalk between neighboring pairs. It was invented by Alexander Graham Bell.[1]"

My note: twisted pair cancels RFI/EMI, but not magnetic fields. Magnetism is a horse of a different color. Shielding, absorbing, rejecting, cancelling magnetic fields calls for something a little more uh, stringent.

@alpha_gt So what of the $39k price tag for cables?

The concept of twisted pair is nothing new, it's been known sonce the days of the telegraph, I.e., number of twists per inch depending on the frequency or gauss of the magnetic field or EMF. Basic stuff I learned in college all those years ago. Audio cable makers didn't invent this idea or discover it. it certainly doesn't add any cost to making cables. 

@fliz That being true, is it regulated by price? All things being equal (materials, configuration, etc) at what price point do you reach diminishing return? Does this mean the more expensive the produce, the better?

(Caveat: these questions overlook the actions of your typical audiophile with a large budget.)

ptss, that explanation adds much to the discussion; thank you!

...nothing draws a crowd like a crowd. ;)

I think I'll just sit over here and watch the floor show.....

Someone should really cater these events. ;)

1) twisting makes a difference.

2) the same twist tightness throughout the entire length of the cable is retarded.  You want a tighter twist on one end than the other.

3) the higher end your system is, the more these minor tweaks are audible. I've got a reference system and I can hear the difference my cable risers make. I could not on a cheaper one.

One trusts Cardas didn't actually say magnetic fields.

Geoffkait, a quick look at the Cardas website will confirm your comments about 'twists' and reveal just how seriously Cardas takes 'twisting' relative to magnetic fields. 

Hello again douglas. I completely agree with your point that high quality internal
wiring is important. The point I was trying to make is the "nonsensical pricing"
of "Masterbuilt ULTRA Internal Wiring" touted by Von Schweikert Audio. As well, Von Schweikert"s promotional literature 'implying'  Masterbuilt Audio is a leading cable company;
these are direct quotes from their website :

"MasterBuilt Audio is pleased to announce the introduction of four unique lines of laboratory-grade audio cables, developed by leading engineers in the aerospace industry.

These products were developed over several decades of research in metallurgy, electrical field effects, and the chemistry of dielectric materials."  

This sounds impressive. However: a look into Masterbuilt Audio's website reveals the only contact is   Von Schweikert Audio - and the Masterbuilt Audio's address is -- Von Schweikert Audio's address. Interesting when Masterbuilt claims "  These products were developed over several decades of research in metallurgy, electrical field effects, and the chemistry of dielectric materials." - and Masterbuilt claims it's
                                                 BACKGROUND

The roots of MasterBuilt Audio Cables can be found in the U.S. aerospace program. Engineers developed wiring systems with low-reactance cable for use in the Apollo lunar missions and other mission-critical NASA projects, such as the International Space Station.

Sound fantastic(al). I wonder where they buy their wiring??

You asked my background in aftermarket wiring. I use reference grade MIT Cables products for power cords,interconnects and speaker cables.

As to where I might source internal speaker wire I would begin with a call to George Cardas of Cardas Audio-to check up on the state of the art. His company manufactures and supplies the wire used by many of the world top audio interconnect and speaker wire manufacturers.

I spoke to Richard Vandersteen about this very thing....it seems when developming a speaker, they listen to many wire types/brands before selecting the one they want.  Sometimes the less expensive wire wins ....sometimes different wire is selected for tweeter, mids, etc.

@geoffkait They forget the password to the account with all their other posts. Besides, somebody has to provide relevant experience...besides "getting your numbers up". Plus its an easy, enjoyable way to pass time. All the subjectivity and blatant disregard for all things non-subjective adds perspective to the hobby. I welcome it!

Whoa! Hey, that guy’s voice is enough to creep any newbie half out of his wits. Part Vincent Price, part Bela Lugosi. And what’s up with all these low post trolls all of a sudden? Was there a cattle call?

So, these cables are worth the $39k price tag...and can out perform cables below this price point...because of the number of twists??

Wilson Audio's literature at some point mentioned the importance of the number of turns in the twist connecting drivers.  Take if for what it's worth. 

@ptss wrote "testpilot it's my understanding wire shouldn't be heard... "

So your objection is merely with the price and is without regard to performance. 

Thanks jetter. I know what you mean and am somewhat inclined to agree about the BS aspect of that statement. When I first read it I paused, went back and re-read it thinking I may have read it wrong initially. As geoffkait mentioned, perhaps there is some benefit in noise reduction or something else. It’s also conceivable they are using the term metaphorically.

https://www.goldenear.com/images/reviews/PRESS-RELEASE_GoldenEar_CES2017_Triton-Reference.pdf

http://burwenbobcat.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/SOUND-IMPROVEMENT-REAL-IMAGINED-OR-FRAUD.mp3

This is very fitting.

@ptss Haven't you learned??? Gon'rs don't like being told their $39k wires are foolish!!! If they didn't listen to common reasoning....their audiophile experiences...hell, technical facts....they why would they listen to you??? The arbitrary subjectivity of the distance between two points is subjectively subjective to your subjectiveness. DUH!!!

Twist as in twisted pair would be good for noise rejection and it wouldn’t surprise me if the rate of twist per inch is critical. I.e., the twist rate is not arbitrary and depends on the wire diameter among other things. Don’t get yer panties in a twist. But are the wires marked for directionality? Furthermore, it would be nice if SOMEONE took into account the influence of the rather massive magnetic field produced by the magnets on the internal wiring.

@toddverrone 

Some like jelly jelly, some like gold

@gdhal ooooohhhh, I'm so jelly! Those speakers look incredible. Write up a long review after you've had them for a bit, so I can live vicariously through you.

I've ordered a pair of the forthcoming Golden Ear Triton Reference speakers. How is that related to this topic you ask? The press release indicates (among many other things)....

"There are a myriad of other significant upgrades and refinements, including: new internal wiring with a specially developed twist..."

Sometimes the objection is simply a philosophical or moral one based on the idea that sound or a product has an absolute monetary value beyond which money is wasted or improperly spent. I have held such a viewpoint at times regarding certain products, and I'm sure many of the good people here also have this perspective. I believe that much of the disdain toward cables lies in this sort of thinking and not just ignorance from lack of experience. 

I hasten to add that I do not see myself ever spending near 1/4 mil on  a speaker, and unless I was enabled to give in charitable donations for both evangelistic and humanitarian purposes an amount representing multiples that value annually, or in the course of a lifetime no less ten times that amount - assuming persistence of the net worth - I would consider such an expenditure  selfish. 

It is impossible to know precisely the motivation of the OP, whether simply suspecting the value of the upgrade, or belittling the activity of improving internal wiring, when it is not disclosed. I have very strong feelings about cars; I will not spend what I consider aninordinate sum on a vehicle - I drive a Toyota Camry LE, a far cry in terms of performance from what I spend on audio gear. I would consider for my situation expenditures of tens of thousands more to be extravagant and unwarranted. Yet, there are people who see the extra features of a fine luxury auto to be nearly indispensable. One reason I eschew them is because I have almost no commute, so much less time is spent in the car. 

My point is that calling upgrades "foolish" in a post is provocative, which it seems was the point of the post, to stir things up. But, if there is to be any benefit in discussion we might expect some perspective on the post from ptss. 

I personally don't see what all the hubbub is about paying more for better internal wiring. It's been offered for a long time by various makers and though they are in the minority, it's nothing new to decry.

If I had the disposable income necessary for a major speaker purchase, I'd naturally inquire about it even if the maker didn't publicly offer it. He would surely know about it having tried various wires as he tuned his speaker. It's a given.

All the best,
Nonoise

ptss, if I were spending that kind of money on speakers I would be the one making the decision which wire was used internally, not the manufacturer. If the company didn't agree, I would move on. There are far too many fantastic speakers to let a manufacturer's restrictions stop the show. 

For someone with the means to do as they wished and with some understanding of how to assess cables it would make sense to conduct comparisons of the Von Schweikert proffered cable to determine whether it was as wonderful as advertised. For a cool quarter million dollar project I would expect the manufacturer to accommodate my desire to have a rigged crossover allowing swapping the cables for a listening session. I would bring three appropriate sets of cables and conduct my own session of music. 


The much vaunted Von Schweikert wiring might win, but perhaps not. I have Verastarr cabling (reviewed) inside the Vapor Audio Joule White 3 (reviewed), a custom build and it sounds mighty fine. So, that might be a pretty good option. Ones that might be interesting to try would be Purist Audio Design or Silent Source (reviewed). 

What experience do you have with aftermarket cables and what wire would you put into a $225K speaker? 

testpilot it's my understanding wire shouldn't be heard...

You know what he means...

Douglas,naturally we expect the best in wiring in great speakers.
Would you not expect the ultimate in wiring in a $225,000 speaker?

The price may be wrong, but the principle is perfect. Internal wiring of speakers is a critical upgrade. I discuss this in my review of the Legacy Audio Whisper DSW Clarity Edition in which both the caps and cables internally were changed and the speaker showed a measurable difference in performance.  :) 

Another one of those bait click bs. Headlines.
First how much are the speakers? Second it's an upgrade, no one is forced to
buy them, and third are you bummed that you can't afford it? It sounds like it...

testpilot it's my understanding wire shouldn't be heard...

Have you heard it?