The Big Misconception About Electricity
This vid goes quite a ways down the road to explaining why:
1) Power cords make a not so subtle difference.
2) Cable elevators should not be looked at askance.
Regards, barts
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Yeah, that's a good one. Watched it yesterday. Thought about posting. But then remembered. Nothing, but nothing, gets screwed up here more than electricity.
Especially when it is true. Current flows in fields, which is why so many things like PPT eMats, TC, etc work. We don't know by what mechanism exactly, but it is clear it has something to do with fields.
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You watched that YouTube video and came away with the notion power cords and cable elevators make audible differences in stereo systems? Seriously? No. My ears tell me or maybe its my ear/brain interface, in any case "I don't care" as I listen to music not equipment. Truth passes through three stages: 1) Ridicule 2) Violent opposition 3) Acceptance as self-evident Schopenhauer
Regards, barts
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Think of it as a form of prismatic separation (of the known components of the signal/intelligence) or similar, at the surface of the wire. Therefore... the physical shape of the wire and it’s overall cross sectional aspects play into it heavily. Think of this as tied to the delta or rate of change. Where the delta is the highest in the signal, this also is the greatest effect upon the ’intelligence’ of the signal. The ear hears principally (almost entirely) via the transients, which are the high delta components. the human er and the brain tied to has an almost crazy level of quality of sensitivity to complex harmonic function in transients and micro transients, as a package. Which varies across individuals, as does intelligence and whatnot. We are not al the same so these sensitivities cannot be given a singular number. It is also a variable that can learn and it can move around. A self adjusted world class FFT sytem, for the best of listeners. But wait, it gets even more complex. Which is all part of the question that deniers of cable need to get straight. Thus the small area of the signal that is adversely modulated and altered via the interactive point of the fields and the wire, just happens to be the place where 100% of your hearing resides. FYI, the liquid metal alloy of the Teo Audio cables, has no surface, not in the way that the ’lattice structure’ of the atomic bonding of a piece of ’wire’ has. The two are radically different in behavior and in the physics of it all, specifically in the way they each deal with the delta of the signal (and the rest of it)...
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Back in the day when I was in the Marine Corps myself and another Sgt. rented a mobile home. Plenty of parties and the unique bit was the bare wires that hung from the soffit over the sink where obviously a light should be. Well, boys will be boys, and when the parties really got going we would have a contest to see who could hold those bare wires the longest. Amazing there were no deaths just a few fainting episodes. Sorry no vids, there was no such thing as consumer video at the time. Regards, barts |
However given human nature there are those who will tell you with conviction that they are immune to biases that affect all humans, they are special golden ear humans. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I don't think it's golden eared at all for some. I think it is pure training.. Mechanics teach new mechanics what to listen for.. There is a lot of well trained mechanics that can hear a malfunctioning piece of equipment 1/2 mile away. YET some people standing right next to a failing piece of GRINGING metal and can't hear or feel a thing.. They aren't trained, so guess who shows up.. The guy who fixes things.. Mr djones51 you just haven't been trained to tell the difference.. 300k piece of equipment, do you really think bias anything comes into play when you FIX a piece of equipment. It is either fixed right or it is not.. It either sound RIGHT or it doesn't.. Mechanics 101, "To thy own self be true". There is no crying in mechanicin', you are the last guy there.. No one else.. Your EARS better be golden.. LOL Regards |
I don’t agree completely with his answer "D". That is true for a small circuit shown in his diagram but for large circuits inductance comes into play and he even alluded to that. In real life his super large circuit is going to take a lot of voltage to overcome the large inductance of that 1000’s of kilometers of wire. It takes time to build and collapse those E/M fields. Old style incadesent bulbs will start glowing almost immediately even as the voltage is building once the switch is closed but LED bulbs will not light up below a certain voltage. I notice that when I flip a switch in a room now it takes a brief moment for the LED bulbs to turn on. Also, he mentioned that high tension (ie voltage) lines are suspended high in the air to keep away from the damp earth. Isn’t it also due to iron in the earth which would increase the impedance and/or inductance of the wires? Our neighborhood power lines are underground but the high tension wires remain above ground. PS. I’m a mechanical engineer talking about electricity, I know. But if you all start making fun of me then I’ll start talking about electrical engineers who design electrical connectors. |
Looking at the comment above, another interesting thing occurs, a side point of interest....with the various qualities of inductance as tied to inductor build and design. In the pure physics of the electric aspect as tied to inductor physical build. regarding the electron phenomena as we consider it, in atomic level physics, and the concept of inductance. (the way we usually use electricity in engineering analysis takes none of this into consideration, thus some of the critical subtleties we deal with in audio are not taken into account in the analysis we see happening on forums) Where above the knee or peak of the Q of an inductor, that the given inductor is a better quality of capacitor than an outright ’bog standard’ capacitor. Which is only one small point of note to help clarify that most (OK, all) engineering analysis uses lumped or simplified parameters or simplified explanations where the originating atomic and hard/core physics levels of explanations of the underlying physics of electricity --- goes missing, it is MIA. by choice, by necessity, otherwise nothing could be built, the analysis would be too complex and for the most part, unnecessary to the given physical task at hand that is to be engineered. Such a statement (about inductors) would require careful unpacking, of course. I leave it up to the given reader to pursue such on their own..... It comes back to that general ’truism’ that I put out there at times, which goes like: "The longer the problem sits unresolved, the more fundamental the error in the formulation of the question." |
What really got me was when he says in the video at around 2:30 that the electron flow from the power station to the house is “interrupted” because of the transformers. Well, that’s really bad because it almost looks like he hasn’t understood how a transformer works and that on the secondary side to which the transformer is connected there are electrons in the conductor as well and as they don’t really have to flow but just “wiggle” there is no need for one “uninterrupted” conductor for the electrons to flow. It’s only necessary to make them “wiggle” on the other side which a transformer achieves through the electromagnetic field. And then the “flow in only one direction” from power station to house and not the other way in the case of AC. Why would the power flow back from the house to the power station through the same wire if the appliances in the house are the connection to ground for the current that flows to the house through the hot wire? The loop is closed through the ground connection. It “wiggles” back and forth including the ground connection . But the biggest problem for me is how to combine Ohm’s law with the understanding that it’s not through the flow of electrons through a conductor -which still exists according to the video- but through fields that power is transmitted from point A to B (video: 7’-9’). What would that mean for a circuit in an amp for example considering resistors and their function? How would they be able to transform energy to heat and thus lower voltage or current where it’s necessary without the flow of electrons in a resistive path? And how would we have to re-evaluate the operation of an electronic tube or transistor in a circuit? The source signal (music) seems to flow from input to output (so called “signal path”) but the reality is that the current flows at each stage of amplification from one pole of the power supply to the opposite pole through the tube or transistor (only triggered by the music signal) which as a consequence creates the higher output voltage we are interested in for driving loads like speakers (at least in case of voltage amplifiers). How would we describe what happens in an active device like a tube or transistor for example with this field-transfer theory? And what about local or global feedback which most amps use for keeping distortion down or increasing impedance etc.? With Ohm’s law and current flow through wires it can be easily explained, calculated, and practically verified. With this “field theory” I wouldn’t even know where to start with any calculation because even a relatively simple circuit like an amp is a hundred times more complex than a circuit with a battery and a light bulb. And if this “field-theory” describes more accurately the reality of what’s going on than for example Ohm’s law based on electrons flowing through electronic parts and wires with resistance should it not also give us the more accurate equations with which we could more accurately calculate/select the parts for an amp? And should all of this not finally let us create better sounding amps? So, where are those better sounding amps today based on this theory which is already know for quite a while (Maxwell, Tesla etc)? Do the HighEnd cables reflect this already based and built on solid knowledge or are they just a result of trial and error and we are kept busy finding some theory (like this field-theory) for explaining what we hear and cannot explain? These are real question, not to be misunderstood as cynical or sarcastic. Any ideas or input? Did I miss something? |
Don't just watch the video only, click the "YouTube" icon on the right bottom screen and read the comments! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHIhgxav9LY
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At least this much is clear(er) after reading through the comments:P=IV and all the rest of the equations is still the same. ".... it is absolutely true that the electric and magnetic fields carry the energy – the current does not – but when one takes the spatial integration over the Poynting vector, it always reproduces the power law P=IV. The fields carry the energy, but the current generates it. You can change those fields in a million different ways and the circuit will behave the same." That should have been explained in the video instead of making this big hoopla about nothing really so new and exciting.
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I (foolishly) took the vid at face value and didn't dig any deeper. Reading the comments on YouTube is rather eye-opening. It's not going to change anything I Much appreciated that the comments here didn't get all twisted up and spiral down. Also, this vid really struck a nerve with his audience as there are over 47,000 comments. Wow. Regards, barts |
@teo_audio you make some very interesting points and I especially like your dive into the concept of learning and hearing and learning to hear. I agree that in both fields people are able to advance. I know that since I have taken up this hobby my ability to hear has increased. I don't think this ability to learn in either fields will be equal for all however as there exist physical limitations among individuals. I have one ear canal that is of much smaller size than the other; is this difference going to hinder me over someone with nearly symetrical ears? The outward bend of one ear is different than the other therefore it won't gather sound exactly the same. The point being I think there are some who would be more 'golden ear' than others. |
I finally watched this video through and it really had me questioning my understanding of electricity. It actually took some time for me to wrap my head around the theory of his version on "how electricity really works". Waking up today, I have a different idea. If his theory is true, then the size of the wire doesn't matter because it's not the part that carries the energy. If that is the case, why do fuses blow with too much current and other issues such as "ohms lay" stated above by apogeum. I don't buy into everything the video is saying. You still need a large enough wire/conductor for a certain amount of current/energy. He is completely right when he states "the electrons generated at the power plant are NOT the same as the electrons you are using at your house power outlet". Current is transferred using electro-magnetic force. This is the same electro+magnetic force that is transferred using magnetic energy in transformers (where there is absolutely no direct wire connection between input and output). However, part of what he is saying could have an effect. There "could" be "magnetic fields" outside of the wire and these magnetic fields could be what "pushes" the electrons forward that flow across the molecules of the metal wire itself (essentially electrons inside the wire). ==BUT== the current is still being transferred inside of the wire, which means the type and size of wire is still a critical element of how the current is transferred. I'll bring up a previous conversation I had over in the diyaudio.com forums. There was a question where guy was asking if it was worth it to do a balanced interconnect. I remember reading something like this elsewhere, so I stated balanced can be better because the cable has 2 conductors where the exact same signal is being passed, but in inverted polarity/directions. I also stated that this created a "hysteresis" between the two conductors. I basically got called an idiot and was laughed out of the thread. Ugh, okay. Understandable. Pretty much 99% of the crowd there is "if you get measure it, it doesn't exist". |
There definitely are magnetic fields around the current in a wire. This is why it is called electro-magnetism. The two go together. Whenever a magnetic field crosses a wire it induces a current in that wire. This is how electricity is generated in the first place, transmitted long distances at high voltage then stepped down with transformers, how cartridges generate a signal, on and on. This is also how antennas work, including the one in your cell phone. This is why RFI is such a problem. On and on. This used to be the kind of thing they taught in school. Grade school. We would put iron filings on a sheet of paper, hold a magnet under it, watch the filings line up along the magnetic field lines. Then wrap a wire around a nail, attach to a battery, see the same thing with this electro-magnet. They didn't teach you this in school? |
wow, thanks so much millercarbon. Can you be any more condescending? Or do you just post all your messages talking down to people to make you feel better. I’m way past getting tired of your stance. I'm sure many new posters fun of audio is discouraged by these kind of comments. Instead of talking down to people, try helping them instead. |
The question was did they teach it. Not did you learn it. The meaning is educational standards have declined to such a dismal level you can reach adulthood now not having been taught basic knowledge that was once learned in grade school. That is a reflection on public education not you. Now if you want to act like everything is about you, well sorry.
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You know that "Thunderbolts of the Gods", i.e. the "Electric Universe" is quackery? No recognized scientist thinks this is a suitable theory to explain the universe. There is 0 rigorous work to turn this hypothesis into a theory. I would go on a limb and expect that the authors and proponents don't have the mathematical chops to do the due diligence needed. These guys are nut jobs. I will use their own words ...
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Copernic was a "nut" job for most scientist at his times, compared to the very precise modelling of what man SEE in the sky with Ptolemaic epicycles... It is not so much the accuracy of his model that made him victorious but the changing times... It was the new epoch where modelling apparences like Prolemaic mechanic were no more enough , man look for a new way to look at the sky....A theoretical view... This era was looking for an idea victorious OVER THE PERCEPTION itself... I dont know for the electrical universe at all.... But who is the nut job you or his proponent against all others scientist ?
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@apogeum , Even hard core physicist will tell you that field theory for electrical conduction is rarely consequential to the outcome, though we both use and experience it day in and day out in the form of transformers, RF, and EMI. Contrary to what our friend @teo_audio states, engineers often use fairly complex model for inductance, electrical fields, etc. even to the point of doing finite element analysis for things like transformers, antennas, sensors, electromechanical semiconductor elements, semiconductors period, etc. When dealing with things in isolation, ohms law works just fine and is more than accurate enough for audio, and we do use that knowledge of fields, mainly to shield ourselves from the instances where they become an issue with the exception of transformers. All the semiconductors we use benefit heavily from our knowledge of fields and how they apply to electrical conduction and hence once could say that knowledge has greatly led to improved audio. Unfortunately, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, so when some grab onto this knowledge without fully understanding said knowledge, they come to erroneous conclusions, mainly from not understanding the magnitude of effects. Lot's of "interesting" things said about cables that a little analysis would show can't be remotely audible. It is not unlike things with Covid. People latch onto things that match what they believe already, so they see a study that says 60% of infected people are vaccinated and they jump to or are easily led to the conclusion that vaccines don't work or worse cause more infections. They don't dive deep into the data that shows that 80% of the people are vaccinated, hence relative infection rates are 60/80 for vaccinated versus 40/20 for non vaccinated (using representative but not real numbers). The further don't delve into age related stats that skew that data even more towards vaccine effectiveness. |
@tonywinga, there are LED bulbs that turn on at low voltage, certainly as low as any incandescent bulb ever will and quicker. The brief moment for the LED to turn on is because there is a power supply in the bulb (most bulbs), and you need time to charge up the capacitors for controllers, output capacitors, etc. just like any power supply. |
@cindyment So you post their assertions without presenting any of the evidence that they cite for the claim. Very interesting....
Let me ask you one question..... Is this claim more or less preposterous that a description of a Black Hole, or a Neutron Star, or Dark Matter, or String Theory? Black Hole: A black hole is a region of spacetime where gravity is so strong that nothing — no particles or even electromagnetic radiation such as light — can escape from it. The theory of general relativity predicts that a sufficiently compact mass can deform spacetime to form a black hole. The boundary of no escape is called the event horizon.
Neutron Star: Neutron Stars. When the core of a massive star undergoes gravitational collapse at the end of its life, protons and electrons are literally scrunched together, leaving behind one of nature’s most wondrous creations: a neutron star. Neutron stars cram roughly 1.3 to 2.5 solar masses into a city-sized sphere perhaps 20 kilometers
Dark Matter: Dark matter is a hypothetical form of matter thought to account for approximately 85% of the matter in the universe. Its presence is implied in a variety of astrophysical observations, including gravitational effects that cannot be explained by accepted theories of gravity unless more matter is present than can be seen. For this reason, most experts think that dark matter is abundant in the universe and that it has had a strong influence on its structure and evolution. Dark matter is called dark because it does not appear to interact with the electromagnetic field, which means it does not absorb, reflect or emit electromagnetic radiation, and is therefore difficult to detect |
@yuviarora , I don’t have any issue with black holes or neutron stars, and our observations of multiple electromagnetic and gravitational phenomena correlate with the theories. Dark matter is accepted as likely, and really, it is just distributed matter, nothing special about it. It does not emit heat or light, which if it is at the cosmic background temperature of about 3 kelvin, is not surprising. They could be non baryonic particles making them hard to detect. However, there are vastly different ideas about how much there is but the accepted theory is 80%. This is what is required for galactic/universal gravitational models. Locally, i.e. on a solar system level, our gravity models work just fine and are more than accurate enough sans dark matter.
@mahgister , anyone who states the following with a straight face is a nut-job in my mind.
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And most of the authors and contributors to the Electric Model are REAL SCIENTISTS. Employed at some of the most prestigious Universities around the world. But just like Covid....A scientist is only a scientist when he defends the status quo, everyone else is a Quack. The Progenitor of the Electric model is Nikola Tesla, he is often called the Father of Electricity and I don’t think I need to go very deep into his resume. |
😁😊 For most people it is Edison... Tesla is ALMOST unknown in US.... Some physicists even call him a "myth"... An exagerated myth by ignorant people... I know i discuss with one 20 years ago, a world publishing one by the way, who say it straight to my face... We became friends and he change his stance very slowly..... Anyway TESLA published NOTHING.... How do you cite a man who publish NOTHING....hor do you evaluate him in universities and physics faculties? The last time someone of his level lived on earth it was perhaps Archimedes... Sometimes myths are lies.... But sometimes even a myth is an underestimation of the truth.... it takes exactly 2 millenia and more to understand the true genius level of Archimedes concerning for excample his use of the infinite in his mathematical methods... :)😁😊
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@cindyment You don’t have any problem with any of those concepts, because you bend over to Authority. You have never seen a black hole, never seen an object made of just Neutrons (a theoretical object that violates all known laws of physics), never seen String Theory (or it’s 10 other dimensions), never sensed Black matter (Or have an iota of evidence that it exists)...... Yet, you accept all of it, without question or hesitation. And here comes a different theory, that you dismiss without looking at any of the evidence, and declare it quackery, why? because you already know better..
Talking to you is a waste of my time. 🙏
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Such as, and please have examples beyond Alfvén who is now long dead, and whose expertise did not encompass cosmology or astrophysics. Tesla was a tinkerer and inventor, but not a scientist and not much of a physicist, and his training in that area was batchelor's level. His 3 phase motor was very smart, as was recognizing AC was far more practical for electrical transmission. However, he contributed pretty much nothing to our knowledge of physics. I don't think there is a theory in physics his name is attributed to or even really associated with.
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@cindyment Find the information yourself. I am not your peon. |
I have not seen air either .... though technically I have seen atoms under an electron microscope. Black holes and neutron stars violate all known laws of physics? Which ones in particular? Surely you know off the top of your head, .... or .... are you just stating that because you read it somewhere and choose to believe it? I tend to question eveverything myself, but unlike you, I equipment myself with the tools to question things ... and to ask the right questions. One of those recognized laws of physics is the Chandrasekhar Limit. Do you know what that limit allows? ... black holes and neutron stars, so how can they violate every law of physics when there is one that sort of explicitly states they can occur? Inquiring minds want to know. I will assume you don't know who those scientists are. I at least provided one example. That was one more than you did.
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Incredible ignorance....Sorry....
It would be comic if it was a joke... Tesla was the discoverer of many phenomenon BEFORE many others... NO TINKERER can invent radiography with x rays before Roentgen by playing with toys.... Instruct yourself.... And stay in audio matters it is more secure for you.... «The main reason why Tesla’s contribution to the discovery of x-rays hasn’t become better known is that much of his work was lost when his laboratory in New York burnt down on March 13, 1895» https://pubs.rsna.org/doi/full/10.1148/rg.284075206
You prove your ignorance about Tesla claiming it is not even a scientist... All people here are not ignorant or stupid sorry.... |
Yuviarora, if neutron stars don't exists, then how is the element gold produced? It not fused in stars like our sun, nor is it seen in supernova explosions. So where does gold originate? It's good to question existing orthodoxy, but any new theory has to at a minimum explain everything the theory its trying to replace can explain. |
Knowledge cannot be reduced to science and science cannot be reduced to powerful technologies...Save for materialist limited insight... Nobody knows what a black hole prediction and indirect observation ULTIMETELY means, for sure save some people here in audio trusting newspapers or the limited "knowledge" of the day and calling Tesla a non scientist and a tinkerer... Just now there is a complete revolution in science.... Do you know that? A "tinkerer" in brain imaging analysis, his job, made it ....Try this guy : Karl Friston....He is less intelligent probably than Tesla but way more than the average materialist scientist.... He just demonstrate WHY we cannot understand the consciousness /brain relationship without knowing what is a living system... His main concept the "Markov blanket" is a fundamental polarity of his theory... Like Goethe disciple of Spinoza...By the way against Descartes he is a Spinoza disciple.... By the way he is one of the most cited scientist in the world in neuroscience and A. I. and in meddeince, biology, psychology and ecology.... The next revolution is here already and it is in BIOLOGY not in physics... Perhaps before understanding cosmology we must understand what life is ? no? Ernst Schrodinger was thinking so, he even wrote a book about that that sell very well on the library of any scientist...." what is life ? " Speaking of black hole,perhaps physics is the ass of science and biology the head? It is not so much that electricity flows cross the universe, perhaps it is information flows that cross the universe like in the living system and in the brain, not only chemicals and electricity ? With Karl Friston science enter in a post galilean physical paradigm....This is all my own interpretation of Friston by the way.... I will not cite any other "tinkerer" for now.... 😊
p.s. Nobody knows what electricity is or black holes ultimetaly....If you know wrote to Nobel in Sweden....
«The history of science is science» Goethe
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Fyi, mr debunker: Just one point among thousands....Toyota corporation has patents, patents that have been applied for, been evaluated and passed scientific muster...and have been granted..on atomic transmutation. For a good 5 years now. If you want to debunk the ’electric universe’ model, tell us why it is so wrong, in full detail. I was just reading yesterday about time symmetry, or time mirror symmetry.
Where, if you can follow the (dominoes of) logic... in the observations of phenomena (that observation thing again, observation is king!), like the double slit experiment, it tells you all you need to know --- to understand the true nature of ’reality’. While you were sleeping, ’cold fusion’ also went forward. regarding that which is recent and pertains to audio, well, how about..one of many...New model simulates phenomena in a shock wave (they are sort of throwing out naiver stokes and are using a kinetic model) so ...taking 5 cents of book learning/dogma and throwing it at us like a manhole cover of actual science, just won’t cut it here. Better catch up, the world is leaving you behind. |
