Technics SU-R1000 - Good but not the king of switching amps
Was looking at the measurements for the Technics SU-R1000 Integrated published by Stereophile. I never bother with the reviews of the sound quality as there’s 1 reviewer there whose ears I trust and it’s not this reviewer.
To be clear, this IS a digital amplifier, and is not a Class D amplifier. Atmasphere will always disagree with me, but given Technics nomenclature and the use of an A/D converter, and PWM output I think if any amplifier qualifies as digital this one does.
What I find kind of interesting here is that the measurements are OK but not absolute Class D killing results. I am particularly unimpressed by the performance of the impedance compensation circuit, LAPC, which at the end of the day does not seem to have performed significantly better than actual, non GaNFET amplifiers, particularly in removing the effects of the output filters Class D amps require. I really hoped to see a huge win here... but it’s not. It’s just making the PWM perform almost as good as a true Class D amplifier.
I have not heard this integrated, but the claims and expectations laid out for the technology seem to not be proven in the measurements. This is a very expensive integrated that does everything differently, and measures about the same as previous generation, also excellent sounding, Class D engines I’ve seen measured.
My stance that Class D was already very good and that new, faster switching amps would have to be truly spectacularly better to unseat them remains, in my mind, uncontested.
Can’t wait to see everyone trashing Class D on the measurements suddenly decide that this amp should be heard and not measured.
Some companies that make class-D amplifiers are content to have their technology labeled class-D—just don't call it digital. Technics is happy to have the amplification technology in the SU-R1000 called digital—in fact they insist on it—just don't call it class-D!"
Technics' digital amplifier is often mistaken as class-D, but strictly speaking, Technics' digital amplifier is not class-D," company CTO Tetsuya Itani writes in a Technics white paper. "Class-D ... is a ... method that applies analog signal technology such as sawtooth wave generation and comparator, so it has the drawbacks of conventional analog amplifiers, such as the possibility of distortion and noise mixing, depending on the accuracy of parts, etc. Further, since the input is an analog sound signal, it is necessary to [perform] D/A conversion on the digital signal, and there is a limit to accuracy in handling a high-precision signal such as high-res sound. Technics' full digital amplifier processes digital input as it is with high precision, so it is advantageous, especially when handling high-res signals. When dealing with analog signals, a 192kHz/24bit high precision A/D converter is used to ensure high performance." To perform this task, the SU-R1000 utilizes the AK5572EN 1740EAC ADC chip from AKM.
So it's not class D but a fully digital amp. Who cares what ASR says about it?
I'm also not really interested in ASR blessing an amp or not.
I guess what I'm disappointed in is that yes, Class D amps have minor but measureable issues with speaker impedance and absolute response at the top octaves. The Technics system was a really interesting take on how to correct for this. Mind you, you could do this yourself with DSP, but still, I thought the idea was really progressive and leveraging of modern DSP capabilities and reduced cost to solve a problem.
The results, at least measurably, were meh. After all that hype you end up with a switching amp which measures sometimes as good as, sometimes worse than 2 or 3 generation old Class D. And I am a fan of these Class D designs, I just wanted to see something spectacularly better.
Time will tell. I'm on a waiting list for the SU-G700M2 and can't wait to hear it for myself. Here's hoping you get a chance to hear the SU-R1000 for yourself.
Only some of class D amps have speaker impedance issues. If you use a lot of feedback.....like Purifi does, then you have flat frequency response into any load. Purifi has a new higher powered module that according to one person whom I trust....has even better sound than the current one. And all Purifi amps measure superbly in other ways, as well.
Yes, ASR does not listen, so they know nothing that is important in audio (the sound) Listening tests are what is real.
Only some of class D amps have speaker impedance issues.
Depends how you define it. Lots of Class D can handle low (~ 2 Ohm) loads, but response with simulated speaker loads (as opposed to simple resistors) usually shows them to behave a little differently. That's what I was focusing on, but maybe wasn't saying it quite well.
To be clear, this IS a digital amplifier, and is not a Class D amplifier. Atmasphere will always disagree with me, but given Technics nomenclature and the use of an A/D converter, and PWM output I think if any amplifier qualifies as digital this one does.
What I find kind of interesting here is that the measurements are OK but not absolute Class D killing results. I am particularly unimpressed by the performance of the impedance compensation circuit, LAPC, which at the end of the day does not seem to have performed significantly better than actual, non GaNFET amplifiers, particularly in removing the effects of the output filters Class D amps require. I really hoped to see a huge win here... but it’s not. It’s just making the PWM perform almost as good as a true Class D amplifier.
Lol!! I won't always disagree, unless you say something like this- on the one hand, its a digital amplifier; on the other you discuss class D amps- including Pulse Width Modulation, which is an analog process found in most class D amps.
I'm puzzled by the idea of a 'digital amplifier' since the bits in a digital word represent a voltage, whereas in a switching amplifier the on and off states have no such meaning. At some point the digital signal has to be converted to analog; as best I can make out this might describe a class D amp with a DAC driving it directly.
I've puzzled over their claims about this amp. I think a lot of it is marketing. I've seen claims that the amp is zero feedback and there is also evidence to suggest that there is feedback.
The output impedance of the amp should be very low even if its zero feedback and so should behave as a voltage source even into 2 Ohms. But that means that the output filter will introduce phase shift; to get around it they have a very high switching frequency and thus also a high filter frequency. At least that's my take on it.
Its quite a tour de force of engineering- too bad it didn't bring home the bacon for you.
@ricevs: On November 27 Amir tested and listened to the new Topping PA5 class D amp. It placed second to the Benchmark AHB2. Speakers used were the Infinity R253's. PA5 had 40/80 wpc for $349! Sonically second to the AHB2! All you ASR haters should pay attention!
So how many of you high rollers are going to pony up the $10K + (including sales tax) for the Technics, eh? I'd rather get a Topping PA5 and a pair of 90+ db speakers!
The Technics has a headphone output of 600 ohms! Somebody at Technics was asleep! This is way beyond high! Should be less than 1 ohm! Otherwise it will act as a bad tone control when used with typical headphones!
Not according to the measurements, it's 100 Ohms. Still relatively high, but sadly not uncommon in an integrated. Perhaps you are confusing it with the preamp outputs which are ~ 700 ? A fine measurement there.
Amir does not listen seriously to anything. As long as the SINAD is a certain number or lower then he thinks the amp or whatever is "transparent".....ie...has no sound. His thinking is flawed. You change the connectors on an amp and it sounds different, yet still measures the same. I am sure the Topping PA5 sounds very good and could be modded to sound way better, but still would not match other amps sonically that might measure worse. Just the way it is.....believe it or not.
I have just bought one and it sounds great. I haven't done extended testing with the LAPC and a few reviewers say they can't tell the difference but I am sure with my speakers Zingali Evo Twenty there is more resolution with the option on.
The whole Class D thing and the Technics name seems to have pressed a lot of buttons. I've went from tubes to this amp and I have no regrets. I would say only the Esoteric A-100 which I owned for a while sounds close to this amp but that was a while back and I never heard it with my Zingalis.
I trialed the original Jeff Rowland Class D and this is in another universe altogether. Measurements are measurements. I think we all use amps to listen to not run around them with meters.....
There have been plenty of great switching amps before the Technics, and there will be more long after, so I'm not really surprised listeners like it. :)
I'm more curious about all the technical expectations which IMHO haven't really been met here. It was expected the extremely elevated switching speed would raise the performance for switching amps. It seems, based on measurements, it's not better, just as good.
Who had these technical expectations? And how would it manifest itself other than how it sounds?
Not sure if this is an ironic satirical stance? If the Technics sells it'll be on it's functionality, features, looks and sound. Won't be the measurements.
It was expected the extremely elevated switching speed would raise the performance for switching amps.
@erik_squiresI think most of that came from the George guy who used to post here quite a lot until recently. Personally I can't think of a good reason to switch at such a high frequency and I can think of plenty of good reasons to switch at a lower frequency. If you were trying to get a lot of loop gain, switching that high might be an advantage, but that doesn't seem to be what they are up to.
One thing that is problematic is dead time- that is a fixed value for a particular output device. The faster you switch, the greater the percentage of the total time winds up being dead time; a slower switching speed can allow for lower distortion.
I think most of that came from the George guy who used to post here quite a lot until recently.
Yes, this is true, but it’s also true that these amps do have a lot of innovation in them. VERY different technical solutions to technical issues around Class D. I was actually really hoping to see these amps just be stellar technical performers, like Halcro of Analog.
I also completely agree that the real proof of a technology is in the listening. :)
VERY different technical solutions to technical issues around Class D.
@erik_squiresYes, it seems as if the speaker correction thing is a sort of feedback system of its own. But it shouldn't have to be something just for class D. I've been trying to sort out if you even need something like that- audiophiles haven't for decades.
But it shouldn't have to be something just for class D
Well, I should have said, it's a solution for switching amps. And you are right, I think that most Class D amps don't need it. I mean, yeah, you could tweak things, but I don't think it's necessary.
On the other hand, if this amp is a DSP driven, zero output feedback design then this impedance compensation might be attempting to correct problems unique to this specific topology.
Maybe there is a limit to what practically constitutes good sound. I have several Class D amps and they all sound basically flawless within their limits. Plus I hear all the new stuff that comes out all the time and the best sounds no better than before. Except value tends to go up so you get more for less.
Perhaps we have just reached saturation level for good sound? Our ears and bodies have limits you know. I laugh whenever someone comes on and claims ultrasonic frequencies that people cannot hear and no music occurs in make a difference somehow by magic. More noise maybe. It’s all nonsense.
Maybe there is a limit to what practically constitutes good sound.
At least with switching amps, I have to agree with you, @Mapman
This amp brought with it a kitchen sink worth of new stuff.
It also has meters, as god intended, but the very technical expectations I had for it's performance have been dashed. I never expected it to sound much better, but I did expect it would measure better.
If wee went by measurements for everything then neither Messi or Maradona should be able to play football.
Personally I am a vinyl freak but am itching to hear this amp - it does things i nthee analogue domain that I believe is only done by 50K north FM Acoustics equipment (I didn't really look at those specs at any length as I will never have them)
I am interested in what the digital resolution is on vinyl.
Just wanted to dust this off. I've heard it and had it in my system. It's a superb, full stop, whatever name is on the badge. Ironically, I also know someone who ditched his Luxman amp and Backert Labs Preamp for this and he doesn't seem the least bit sad about the change.
Thank you for bringing your Swiffer 😄
I have the "lessor" SU-G700M2 which the Absolute Sound called "a taste of the ultra high end for a tenth of the price." I wish I could afford the SU-R1000 but a "taste" I can live with.
@nonoiseI have both the R1000 and the G700m2 right now. The G700m2 running in pre out to R1000 main in gets me an identical sound as the R1000 all by itself driving Avalon Eidolon Diamond and Avalon Opus. With the G700m2 doing all 3 duties its just a bit less musical and less authoritative in dynamics. Not shabby at all.
I had the G700M2 for 30 days last year and agree about how good it is. In audio, you are always chasing the last 10-15% and that's the case here. Quoting the maker of some extremely expensive high-end speakers about the R-1000 vs the G700MK2, "Is it better? Yes. Is it 3x better? No". He recommends the G700MK2 with his speakers all the time when you chat with him in person.
I sprung for the SU-R1000 because I wanted the improved phono stage and the improved bass weight of having a power supply for each channel. From a geek perspective, I also like having the GaNFET in the output stage transistor, rather than the MOSFET in the 700. That said, all the improvements are incremental and if I ever scaled down, I would be happy with the 700MK2.
When I had the G700MK2 in-house, a friend of mine was really interested in the possibilities of the Technics models but had talked himself out of racing over to buy one of the few he could find at that point (BTW, distribution is still wonky). I owned the same speakers and after trying it in my setup, I told him he absolutely needed to check the 700 out. He did, loved it and now owns the R1000. And it's not a speaker pairing that makes sense on paper (which just upholds my working model of buying equipment these days, if I can't hear it in my system first, I don't buy it).
These are both great integrated amps that do things I've never heard in my system before. Both are bold products that dare to do things differently. And most importantly, the implementation of everything they have going on in these units seems to work so well in unison. Can you run out and buy either the Atmasphere or Audion GaN monoblocks? Sure. I imagine they are both great. But you don't get all the other features that come in one box from Technics.
I’m currently in Tokyo and had the chance to hear the R1000 at Dynamic Audio 5555. The amp was driving TAD’s demanding CE1 speakers. With volume at barely 8 o’clock, the resolution produced by the Technics was extremely impressive. The music was full/ complete without being at all loud. Really stunning clarity and no trace of treble brightness.
Given this experience, I’d be very interested in hearing the Technics G700M2 paired to the MoFi Sourcepoint 10’s or something similarly easy to drive, unlike the CE1’s, with solid bass abilities. My hunch is that this could be a knockout combination.
I’m currently in Tokyo and had the chance to hear the R1000 at Dynamic Audio 5555. The amp was driving TAD’s demanding CE1 speakers. With volume at barely 8 o’clock, the resolution produced by the Technics was extremely impressive. The music was full/ complete without being at all loud. Really stunning clarity and no trace of treble brightness.
When I was in Madrid Mahou tasted better than any beer I had tasted before.
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