Synergistic Red Fuse ...

121 posts
01-18-2017 9:11am
3199 responses to this post. I just had to make it an even 3200. Also, this post makes me happy that I bought a pair of Pass Lab monoblocks. No Fuses; Thermal magnetic breakers.

Yeah, but the fuse voodooist will tell you, if you ripped all that out and put in a SR fuse it will sound better, WHAT A LOAD OF VOODOO ****!!!
Cheers George

charles1dad
Given the increased sound quality I hear with better fuses I'd be very curious to hear my components with breakers in placed of my SR fuses and listen for what differences they make.

I'm getting goosebumps just thinking about a new thread on breakers.

I have been posting on these for years and use breakers in my mods and recent builds. Learned it from one of the best out of the box designers in audio history, Paul Weitzel, founder of Tube Research Labs. Lose the fuse! 

Bill,
Since you've used breakers in your numerous modification projects I'd assume that it is relatively easy to accomplish.  If this is true why the continued dominant use of fuses in audio components rather than breakers?
Charles 

I too am curious why breakers are not more widely used. Are the trolls okay with breakers, or are they voodoo scam snake oil too? 😉

Discussion of the use of circuit breakers in audio components can be found in the following threads.  The bottom line would seem to be that it may be suitable and beneficial to use some breakers in some applications but not in others, with breaking time being one of several significant considerations:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/anyone-replaced-fuse-with-circuit-breaker

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/by-pass-fuse-and-add-a-circuit-breaker

Also, use of a circuit breaker in a DC rail application may be problematical in many cases in terms of where it is located and how it is wired to, with the possibility of noise coupling to or from that wiring having to be addressed.  

Finally, I would imagine that in many cases a factor is that designers tend to go with approaches they have used previously, and are familiar with, and do not require significant time for evaluation and experimentation in return for sonic benefits that may or may not occur.

Regards,
-- Al
 

Al,
Thanks for providing the links, I'll read them later today.  I realize that there is a pro and con argument that can be made for virtually any choice made regarding audio products.  It'd be interesting to know what factors cause Nelson Pass to avoid fuses and utilize circuit breakers.
Charles 

That would be interesting. Tried google search and came up empty.

One benefit would be anything done differently is a unique feature and helps differentiate one product or product line from another.

Also I’m sure not all breakers are created equal just like fuses however I would expect a good quality breaker circuit to be inherently more costly to implement than most fuses.

Charles, I don’t know why many builders don’t use film caps in the power supply? Why they don’t use better internal wiring? Why they use such long signal paths? Why they don’t use breakers? Why many builders think one part sounds the same as another as long as both are in spec and think boutique capacitors/resistors and the like are snake oil? Why do we still use conventional binding posts instead of clamps that clamp the output wires to the speaker cable? Many more audio questions I wonder about in terms of tube gear design.

I think some builders do what they know over and over and really don’t innovate in ways that challenge their comfort zone and conventional wisdom. I am confident this is at play. Some builders do push their comfort zone and are open minded and intentionally curious. Intentional curiosity and openness to outside ideas is indeed in short supply based on my business experience. 

My ears know breakers sound better than fuses all else being equal. I am speaking about AC mains voltage here. 

Yes, I'm sure there's a quality hierarchy among circuit breakers as exist with fuses, resistors, capacitors, tubes, cables etc. Nelson Pass could offer a compelling reason for circuit breakers. On the other hand some of the finest sounding components use fuses. Obviously many factors determine the end result of a component's sonic performance.
Charles

Bill,
How much did you spend for a high quality circuit breaker in your various modification projects? What case did Paul Weitzel make in favor of circuit breakers ?
Charles

As a technology and innovation professional (not in audio industry though) I’d venture to guess that the good makers evaluate many design options all the time and choose the ones that are reliable and work well and are in line with the "brand". I’d expect some R&D budget is there to help raise the bar over time as well else one gets left behind eventually.

IF some things are not seen as often as one might expect there is a good reason.

Anyone with enough knowledge and skill can join the game anytime and try out their own believed innovations. If they are truly better, then that’s the ticket to success, like with Nelson Pass and many others.

Or maybe all these smart folks making this stuff are all just trolls who don’t believe that these particular things make for better sounding gear or do so for good value. That’s an easy explanation. :^)

Or perhaps some manufacturers fail to try things outside of their realm of understanding or fear that buyers will not accept those things either based on the same reason.

Should a manufacturer choose to use SR Black fuses in their products, I can only imagine the outcry of the trolls. Why would they invite this? I would not if I were them.

Dave

I sourced some breakers for $40, but builders would get a far better price. Paul was also a recording expert and produced many a recording. I trusted his ears and brilliant mind and then tried it myself. Being in innovation professionally I have a healthy dose of intentional curiosity. However, my curiosity is not as reigned in as the engineers and operations folks I work with. Yes,  I am a marketing guy who thinks all things are possible!

Recieved my SR black fuses today for my amp, DAC and transport. Even  after just a couple of hours they sound better than the stock fuses. I haven't played with direction yet, figured I'd let them burn in first. I thought my system was quite transparent before.....its even more so now. I don't have a mega buck system but it's sounding quite good and I'm pleasantly surprised that the fuses made an improvement right out of the box, and hopefully will get even better in time. My Decware Torii mkIV and PS Audio Perfectwave  PMT and PWD got the new fuses and they feed my Tekton Double Impacts. So I've switched sides from fuse cynic to advocate. I realize this might cause sleepless nights for those that are so concerned over the use of audiophile fuses by others, but I couldn't help myself! 

Hello mac,
I’m glad that the SR Black fuses were successful in your system components. here’s more good news for you, they’ll improve with further use. I imagine the Decware Torii and Tekton speakers sound very good together. Mac, I also have the P.S.Audio PWT and it’s fabulous mated to my Yamamoto DAC.
Charles

Mac,
You have me curious. Do you also have/use the Raven Audio Blackhawk amp and the Schitt Yggy DAC ? I've read very good comments regarding the Decware Torii and Raven amplifiers. The Yggy gets very good feedback as well.
Charles

dl I think you are right. It would be malpractice in essence for any engineer worth their salt to incorporate something they did not understand. Once they understand it, then no problem.

You are also right that a troll is a troll and nothing will change that. It’s what they do, as they say.

If a Nelson Pass or others of his stature started using SR products in their gear, I for one would certainly take notice.

Thanks Charles,

I'm looking forward to the fuses getting even better. 

Yes, the Torii and Tektons do work well together. And yes, I did have the Raven and Yggy. The Raven was quite nice but I like the Torii more. As much as I like the Torri and Tektons, I'll probably be going with Coincident Speaker Super Victory II's with their Frankenstein 300B Monoblocks and their Statement Line Stage. A lot more money, I know but after hearing them I can't get that sound out of my mind. Hopefully that will be the end of my audio equipment merry go round.......wishful thinking I'm sure.......especially since I want the Directstreams.

The Yggy was excellent and only sold it because I like the synergy of the Perfectwaves with their I2S connection. If I ever need another DAC the Yggy would be at the top of my list. 

Well said on all accounts mapman.

Only a few manufacturers even go so far as to recommend cabling choices for their equipment, at least in writing.

They leave the subjective world of cable, cord, & fuse choices to the dealers or to the customers.

Dave 

Hi Mac,
Did you hear the Coincident system in the home of an owner or at an audio show? I’ve had the Coincident Frankenstein MK II and the Statement Line Stage for over 7 years. My speakers are their discontinued Total Eclipse II. This system has genuinely "exceeded" my lofty expectations and continue to be a pure joy. I believe that you’ll be very happy with your proposed future system.

You demonstrate good taste with your past, current and future components, and yes I am a bit bias 😊
Charles

Charles,

It's only your good taste that allows you to recognize my good taste! Lol. I was my taste was good enough so that I wouldn't have had to spend so much money on this audio journey and instead buy what I really wanted the first time. But then you really don't know what works for you or not until you try out differant components.

I heard the Coincident system at a home and I almost wish I hadn't.....I was just becoming content with my system. I think my current system sounds very good but the Coincident sound is exactly what I'm looking for........a near live performance sound as if you're hearing the actual musicians instead of a recording. IMO nothing beats or matches a live performance but the Coincident system was the closest I've ever heard and I've heard systems costing nearly 10 times that system.......but then I don't need to tell you that, you're already know! Are you using Israels cables also? I ordered his Statement interconnects as I needed a pair and will get his power cords and speaker cables when I'm able to get his Line Stage, Frankensteins and Super Victorys.

Onto day two with the SR fuses. 

Mac,
I use the  Coincident power cables and Ocellia Silver Reference interconnects and speaker cables. I've been told that Israel's latest Statement cables are wonderful. Mac your listening impressions of Coincident mirror mine. Again,  you'll be very happy for years. Feel free to email me anytime, charles1dad@aol.com 
Charles 

I talked to Nelson Pass about this exact thing and his response was unprintable in this forum (actually it is printable, but saying it's not is more fun). Suffice to say old Nelson doesn't support the insupportable or imagined..sorry mapman, you may never get your wish.

wolf,

My only wish in this area is that people make good decisions based on good information.  

Investing hundreds or thousands of dollars on shady fuses is not what I would choose but hey its a free country.


Cheers!

mapman,

If the buyers are happy with their purchase, what else is there to concern you?

Dave

Many designers do not think boutique parts sound different or better. Many big names that I won't mention here think all wire, fuses, capacitors, resistors etc... that meet spec will sound virtually the same. They are wrong. Just because they are talented designers does not mean they were or are opened minded enough to test all manner of boutique parts in their circuits and relentlessly fine tune and learn. 

I have had several designers tell me upgrading parts in their design would not improve the sound. Well, after prolonged and disciplined testing of "boutique" part upgrades I knew first hand the real answer. Yes, better quality parts often improve the sound in a given circuit. I assume fuses would be no different. Heck a couple of resistors make a difference, it all makes a difference. 

I owned a set of $16,000 - $18,000 speakers built with $10 Solen caps and sand cast resistors. The builder told me upgrading the parts would not matter. He could not be more wrong. After the upgrade he then told me the Zobel network would not benefit from upgraded resistors etc... again he was so wrong.

Several good tube amp designers also told me upgrading internal parts would be a waste of money and time. Again, anyone and everyone in my home could easily hear the improvement. 

Why do some talented designers disregard the use of "boutique" parts? Well I know first hand many have not even tried them in their designs being turned off by the cost and assumed waste of time/money. Several told me these parts were marketed to weak minded audiophiles.

I get it really. They are busy running a business and all that goes with it. They are busy designing and sourcing parts that work.  Do they really treat their designs like a high end chef treats a recipe? The high end chef will search high and low for that special quality,  fresh ingredient that goes beyond just filling the ingredient requirement. For example,  using La Vera smoked pakrika from Spain instead of common paprika. This is analogous to a designer using a Duelund capacitor instead of Solen or SR fuses etc... 

Many designers do not think boutique parts sound different or better. Many big names that I won’t mention here think all wire, fuses, capacitors, resistors etc... that meet spec will sound virtually the same. They are wrong. Just because they are talented designers does not mean they were or are opened minded enough to test all manner of boutique parts in their circuits and relentlessly fine tune and learn.

In some cases, I won’t say all, it’s an amplifier designer’s ego that gets in the way. It’s like, I know all about circuits so my designs are perfect and don’t need any tweaks. Another concern is that the cost of incorporating various tweaks or upgrades like premium  fuses and power cords and capacitors almost certainly means he'd have to compete above his weight class as it were.

Good point and I have also experienced this attitude. I call it being closed minded and not having a healthy curiosity for what may be outside of their experience and current knowledge. Lots of knowledgeable people out there besides ourselves:)

DL,

It does not concern me what people buy. People can make their own decisions.  You seem more concerned than I with people who think differently.

mapman: "My only wish in this area is that people make good decisions based on good information."

How else is that statement to be interpreted?

Dave  

High entertainment. Some sort of morality play. Mopman smells blood and circles the prey, closing in for the kill.

😛

Maybe he’s just trying to help out, like "Gov":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSGgm8TIMFU

Dave

To everyone posting here:

Do any of you like coffee? I do. I love really great coffee. Its the only coffee I'll drink. 

Most think the swill Starbucks sells is good coffee. Most people are entirely satisfied drinking swill. They and their friends have been convinced through advertising that just because they spend 5 bucks on a cup of swill, the 5 bucks somehow makes the brew drinkable. Its not ... not by as long shot. The foul bitterness is due to burning the beans and producing in essence charcoal water. 

The person I bought my speakers from years ago convinced me to get into home roasting my coffee. He showed me where to buy the green coffee beans and all of the equipment needed to get things going. 

Once everything was set up and the first roast of Guatemala's finest was finished, I brewed a pot of the ebony elixir and took my first sip. It wasn't subtle; it was a revelation in coffee and how it should taste.  I experienced hints of ripe plums and faint traces of nutmeg evolving into chocolate overtones as the cup cooled. Bright, crisp and no hint of bitterness at all. 

Here's the site I use. www.sweetmarias.com The service is exceptional and the coffee is the best you can buy. Expensive? Nope, average price is under seven bucks per pound. The initial investment in the roaster is about the price of three SR Black fuses. 

Tom, along with his wife Maria, run sweet maria's from their warehouse in San Francisco. Tom travels all over the world to visit small, family owned organic farms. He only buys the best in small lots.

For those of you who love coffee like I do, and who can also hear the difference good after market fuses make, even with the ability of hearing the proper orientation of the fuses, I encourage you to visit sweet maria's site.   

Here's the roaster I settled on:

 https://www.sweetmarias.com/product/behmor-1600-plus

Its totally reliable and you can use it indoors because it has a built in filter and doesn't smoke like most coffee roasters. Once you get the formula right on the roasts, you won't turn back. I've used the Behmor roaster for years with no problems what so ever. 

Here's the vacuum brewer I use. It produces an exceptionally clean cup of coffee. Much better than a French press by far. 

https://www.sweetmarias.com/product/yama-vacuum-brewer-two-sizes

For those of you who believe that coffee is coffee and it can't be improved upon, forget about it. Just remain in ignorant bliss while drinking swill. Yuck!

And no ... I haven't measured the results. 

Frank

Frank,

Thanks to this thread you've started I took the SR Black splurge and even after only about 16 hours I'm happy I did. My system hasn't sounded better. It hasn't been a resounding sound difference......yet......the subtle improvements add immensely to my listening pleasure though. A tad more detail here, clarity there, a bit more air and texture everywhere adds an ambiance I've not heard before. 

As to coffee, ive never had a cup. Neither has my wife so we don't even own a coffee maker but your description of your brewing of it almost makes me want to brew some. Or maybe I'll just stick with brewing beer ;) A nice hearty bourbon stout maybe......that's as close to drinking coffee as I've experienced.

To Granny ring. I have spent 20 years realizing and upgrading stock parts gor premium ones . Trust me I have argued with amplifier mfg telling me a stock power cord will fo nothing it is just the metal burging in , or a capacitor is s capacitor. I just spent the last two weeks putting 200 hours on these new Synergistic Black fuses  with several guys over 2 times the cheap steel fuses were put back in then thd Black fuses in proper direction normally pointing back to ftont  these fuses thd engineers said 300 hours because of thd treatment and Graphene is multitudes more dense then Copper . I could not be happier. 
And before that changed the coupling caps throughout my system 
VH OIMP caps ,snd Jupiter Copper foil caps ,  and when doing Loudspeakers get your capacitors matched to under 1% for all .the Path audio resistors are the 
Most accurate by far mine were matched with 1/2 of 1%. You most certainly can here the timing accuracy as well as phase. Any company charging $10k plus and putting Solen in is s Disgrace.  My Salk Bud Fried  Speakers come with Solen but 
Jim let's you havd whatever you want.  The Duelund Cast the best, but way over priced . The Jupiter Copper foil are better then the standard Duelund in my experiences. Jantzen Copper inductors  ard excellent and decent Salk use Jantzen and mills resistors which are very respectable. Even Teflon solo crystal Copper wire makes a difference as well as connectors,  Bybee makes a great kit for improving the sonics also. My tech builds custom dual mono Pass lab 1at watt amps, and DHT preamplifiers.  This way you build top quality and you the buyer 
Has full control of the parts quality going into your unit  ascwrl, as the case  and powDer coated finish.  If any of your guys are thinking  about a amp or preamp or anything else Email me I would be happy to help.😎🎷🎸🎻

That's nice and everything but it should be pointed out that Graphene is not the conductor in the Black fuse.

58, I build with the same parts and learned first hand how great Jupiter caps, Path Audio resistors etc... are. I would also add how great Clarity TC film caps are in a power supply. These TC caps are far better than oilers or Solen fast caps. More tube amp builders should use them. Yes indeed wire makes a difference in amplifiers.

It also seems fuses make a difference and I think that only makes sense because all parts matter. The fuse is a part. Diodes matter. Tube sockets matter. Tranny wire matters. The fuse holder would also matter. I suppose if I used fuses I would dispense of the fuse holder and silver solder the fuse in place as this would surely sound even better. 

I can’t help how you interpret it. It’s a pretty clear statement.   Is there something wrong with it?

Objection, your honor! Unresponsive!

Objection sustained.

dl if that statement bothers you I think its your problem not others.

I'm not questioning any ones decisions.  They need not be same as mine.

oregonpapa     1-19-17

+1

Great post.

Only your contradiction of intent under scrutiny bothers me, but I will get over it. No worries, Gov.

Dave

dl I have no idea what your talking about. Make bad decisions on bad info then if you prefer. Whatever makes you happy is a good decision for you.  Keep me out of it please.

mapman,

I don't consider you a troll, and you're welcome here as far as I'm concerned. I do, however, wonder what keeps you coming back to this thread?

It's a dangerous mix, alcohol and fuses.