Subwoofer. Great one song. Not so great the next song.

One possibility is that, because you haven’t done any PEQ, some frequencies are being reproduced at the (mostly) correct SPL while others are too loud and overwhelming. The e110 doesn’t have any PEQ functionality built-in so you’d need to add an outboard PEQ device.

Another possibility is that the e110 placement is bad, resulting in similar problems as above. Moving the subwoofer to a better location could help.

If the subwoofer sounds better (less boomy) with polarity 180, it could be that the 180 setting is actually incorrect and the crossover frequencies between your speakers and sub are (more) out-of-phase and therefore no longer overwhelming. Ideally, you would find the exact time delay where the speakers and sub sound waves reach your listening position at the same time by using the phase dial in conjunction with the polarity dial.

Also, in order to optimize the subwoofer integration, you should be connecting your pre-amp to the e110 inputs, and the e110 outputs to your speaker amp, which is then connected to the speakers. This ensures the e110’s crossover is applied.

But yes, in theory you should be able to find the correct settings for the e110 in order to integrate it properly with your speakers, also given good subwoofer placement. But doing so by ear will be time consuming and error-prone. Using software like Room EQ Wizard to take measurements to determine the approximately correct settings would be fastest.

Afterwards, adding in PEQ will reduce the amount of compromise you need to accept, but you can still get a good result without PEQ.

yes there is a great chance you can adjust the sub for good integration.  if your main speakers and sub are against the wall that is most likeky your biggest problem though.  your speakers neec at least two feet from the wall and sub at least 12 inches.  

Thanks guys. Excellent info. It sounds pretty complicated to get it just right and with the limitations on both speaker and sub placement within the room I will probably just forgo the sub.

(This set up is not my primary system and it is in a formal living room. Just the presence of 4' tall speakers was quite a concession by my wife.)

But as always, great info here on Audiogon. I continue to learn a lot.

Holly cow,

Turn the FEQ, all the way down, Counter Clock Wise.

Turn the Vol, to the 12  position, 1/2 way

Turn the Phase switch to 0. ZERO

Flip the phase switch to "0" phase, not 180.

Play the Boom songs

Turn the FEQ up until the boom starts, then turn it down just a bit.

Your close.. It's hard to get perfect, and you won't.
Place the sub closer to you, it will work better for YOU?

Why? Because it will.. The further from you, the more difficult the placement,  within 6-8 feet, between the mains, and forward of the mains, or closer to the seated position.

It's VERY simple, turn three knobs, one switch, then turn one Clock Wise, and back off a tad... Sound easy to me... Enjoy...

Regards

All these things that are so hard with a sub become trivially easy with four subs.

Thanks guys.

@erik_squires Great article.

oldhvymec, thanks, I will do those things except I can't move the sub from where it is which is in a corner to the right of the right speaker. And my listening position is too far away but also not an option to change.

And that is another issue. The system was meant for casual listening throughout the whole room, not just me alone in one place. That alone is a challenge.

I think with my room limitations a sub is probably not going to work out. But, I've got some time so I'll continue to play with it.

I have found it is a matter of not over-doing it. I am not a fan of ports, especially rear ports, so I advise keeping them stuffed. (my experience below)

Main System, 15" Woofers, Horns, I am familiar with full range and Stereo Bass.
.............................................

Both subs and surrounds should not be obvious, (except designed directional action, helicopter fly over, crowd noise ...).

Surrounds: not obvious, but they should surprise you how they were involved when you turn them off, the sound simply collapses to the front.

Subs, location not detectable, their ’fullness’ disappears when off.

1st, successful adjustable crossover
2nd successful adjustable volume.

i.e. Home Theater, Velodyne 10" 1,000 watt self powered sub. Jurassic Park Dinosaur Stomp, oh yeah. But otherwise never muddy.

i.e. Office System, B&W bookshelf speakers and Velodyne 12" self powered sub, doing what the 6-1/2" woofers shouldn't even try do to.
......................................

Consider where eq to separate bass, or separate highs?

Home theater, full frequency to front mains, then:

center to center, surround to surround, sub line out to sub line in, which filters highs,

This keeps full range to your front mains, very important when using ’Direct’ or 2 Channel, you still get the bass to your front mains. Cable ’invents’ strange mixes, I often find 2 channel sounds better.

Office, small 6-1/2" mains: amp speaker wires to sub, sub filters bass out via adjustable crossover, then speaker wires to bookshelf. Then the bookshelf do not try to make bass they cannot do without distortion and poor volume.

Rear Vents Mistake

I inherited a big Fisher Console with horn tweeters, horn mid, and 15" woofers,

So, lets build separate enclosures for them. I duplicated eveything, simply relocated the front panel with drivers, crossovers, insulation into the new enclosures. Wonderful.

Then, being a young whiz kid idiot, I thought, I’ll make larger enclosures, more cubic feet, and a rear vent, get even more out of those monster 37lb woofers.

Engineers at Electrovoice (before mergers ... were still in NYC and Bucanan, Mich), My AV Consultant (I designed a lot of Conference Centers, AV rooms) My Furniture Manufacturer, we all got enthusiastic.

Whoopee, for a while, then sensibly stuffed up the ports.
....................
Location.

My very heavy mains are on 3 wheels (never wobble, more weight per wheel), and perform pulled out of corners, and away from side walls, toed up slightly. toed in for wide enough center imaging for two listeners. They roll into the corners when I expand the dining room table for holidays.

I mention it, because, if the front mains are heavy enough, that can solve situations like you mentioned, limited choices of location. Solid, spikes, 3 wheels, I’ve done them all.

One possibility is that, because you haven’t done any PEQ, some frequencies are being reproduced at the (mostly) correct SPL while others are too loud and overwhelming. The e110 doesn’t have any PEQ functionality built-in so you’d need to add an outboard PEQ device.

Good advice.

Also, in order to optimize the subwoofer integration, you should be connecting your pre-amp to the e110 inputs, and the e110 outputs to your speaker amp, which is then connected to the speakers. This ensures the e110’s crossover is applied.

There is no crossover in the e110, so there's really no point to doing this.

Turn the FEQ, all the way down, Counter Clock Wise.

What's an FEQ?

My suggestions are to consider a preamp with bass management, an external crossover and/or an external DSP for equalizing the sub in your room.

Plugging ports on a speaker isn't the same as the speaker having been designed with a sealed cabinet to begin with. So instead of plugging the ports, it would be better to set the crossover high enough that the speaker ports are unused (or mostly unused) while leaving them unplugged.

Read Jonathan Valin’s review of this sub in the June, 2014 Absolute Sound...very educational. Actually, read all of the reviews on this sub, which will help in set up ( a 2nd unit would be beneficial ), but I understand the room use situation.

In my opinion there's no doubt you should hear a worthwhile improvement by using some of the suggestions given here along with a little effort despite your restrictions.

+1 oldhvy's is free.

Your little JL may lack EQ but its a quality product that will provide you service regardless of any down the road room or system changes. Its also worthy of the benefits of equalization in your future. 

Keep at it and have fun with it.

You can use a miniDSP in your sub chain, or Roon which I do and it works great, but then I make my own loudspeakers, so the learning curve and application is not the same as it is for others.  The alternative is to use a preamp with room correction built in, and honestly the relief from pain and suffering you get from a device like this cannot be undervalued:


https://www.anthemav.com/products-current/model=str-pre-amplifier/page=overview

Plugging ports on a speaker isn’t the same as the speaker having been designed with a sealed cabinet to begin with

@nekoaudio is correct in absolute terms but...


I think this is OK. Plugging a port leaves you with an over damped and close to second order high pass. The 2nd order makes it easy to add 2 more, to get 4th order, and with a little tweaking, make up for the excess damping. That is, since an ideal ported speaker is larger than the same ideal sealed, you end up with too much cabinet, resulting in too little bass before you add the sub, which is all about adding bass. :)

With the right integration / EQ to deal with this, you can end up with higher dynamic range in the main speakers with better sub integration.

Best,

E

I should say the problems the OP listed can be dealt with crudely but effectively.

On Android, get a calibrated mic:


https://amzn.to/3eYDGBa


 and AudioTools. Play the crappy songs. You’ll see the frequencies that are bad. Add a PEQ to kill them. Done.

N80 wrote: " On some songs the combo with the sub just sounds stellar. On others it sounds boomy and thumpy. My audiophile hang up is taught, clear, concise bass. I do not like boomy and thumpy at all. I can get up and turn the output on the sub down a little and it sounds okay again. "

It is not unusual for there to be changes in bass balance from one recording to the next, but I don’t think that’s the whole story.

My guess is that some songs have strong bass energy where you have in-room peaks, and some do not. In-room peaks and dips in the bass region are virtually inevitable. You can re-arrange them by moving the sub and/or moving your listening position. You can reduce their magnitude by a small amount with bass traps. You can significantly improve the in-room smoothness at one location within the room via EQ, with the strong possibility of making the response worse elsewhere in the room.

" The system was meant for casual listening throughout the whole room, not just me alone in one place. That alone is a challenge."

Bass trapping will be beneficial throughout the room, but neither repositioning the sub nor using EQ are especially promising if the goal is significant improvement throughout the room. If you have a problem at a specific frequency throughout the room then of course EQ can be beneficial in addressing that issue. A distributed multisub system is specifically intended to offer significant improvement throughout the room.

I see that you read the article Erik wrote and posted on his website. In it he devotes a fair amount of virtual ink to discrediting the distributed multi-sub concept by labelling its advocates "cultish". If you are open to hearing an opposing viewpoint on the merits of a distributed multisub system, let me know.

"This set up is not my primary system and it is in a formal living room. Just the presence of 4’ tall speakers was quite a concession by my wife."

In that case a distributed multi-sub system is probably impractical, though small subs can sometimes be hidden in unorthodox locations like atop bookshelves.

So assuming that you’ll be plowing with the horses you’ve got for the foreseeable future, here are some setup suggestions:

First, set the level control on your subwoofer amp. This is the control which makes the most subjective difference.

Next, set the lowpass filter frequency control on your subwoofer amp.

Finally, set the phase control on your amp.

Then cycle back through several times to fine-tune.

Sometimes it makes sense to have the sub’s frequency response overlap the bottom end of the mains somewhat, and then put the sub largely if not completely out-of-phase as needed to smooth the transition in that region.

It can take a long time to dial in the level control because the ear is especially sensitive to small changes in SPL at low frequencies. A 3 dB change at 40 Hz is subjectively comparable to a 6 dB change at 1 kHz. This is counter-intuitive but is revealed by the way equal-loudness curves bunch up south of 100 Hz. On the other hand, this implies that small improvements in the in-room frequency response pay disproportionately large perceptual dividends.

If you can try a second (small) sub, positioned far away from and asymmetrically with respect to the first, you may find that it makes a worthwhile improvement in the in-room bass smoothness over a large listening area. And "smooth" bass = "fast" bass, so arguably that would be a step in the right direction, IF you can get away with it.

Duke
subwoofer manufacturer

I have a similar setup.
You have to get the sub blended properly with the mains and all those adjustments are your tools. First level but then also rolloff frequency and then phase.
The trick with one sub is get that all right at your listening position because bass levels will vary within the room no matter how you adjust a single sub.
Try getting it right at the sub location first where you can make fine adjustments fast and easy as needed and get familiar with how the controls affect the sound.
Then take what you’ve learned and listen from you main listening position and make the adjustments for that until right.
Leaving ports open will extend the low frequencies of the mains and allow the sub to come in at a somewhat lower frequency that is less directional and less likely to call attention to a single subs location in the room.
Also helps to know at what frequencies your mains and sub roll off to help determine the rolloff frequency range to shoot for when adjusting that on the sub.
In general, the larger and more extended the mains, the larger and more extended the sub will need to be to fill in the low end missing otherwise rather than just boosting existing bass levels which is generally not what you want.

Also remember that bass levels and sound will vary largely from recording to recording.   Use a good quality track or two or three with lots of good extended bass as your reference tracks and adjust for those so that bass is good but not overwhelming.   Then see how that works but do not expect great bass from all or even most recordings else you will be tuning forever. 

I see that you read the article Erik wrote and posted on his website. In it he devotes a fair amount of virtual ink to discrediting the distributed multi-sub concept by labelling its advocates "cultish". If you are open to hearing an opposing viewpoint on the merits of a distributed multisub system, let me know.

The only negative thing I have to say about the concept and technology is the added complexity of the idea. Hawk it all you want to, I won’t interject.  It is the behavior I have been subjected to.  Be nice and I'll be nice.  Simple enough concept for most.

Leaving ports open will extend the low frequencies of the mains and allow the sub to come in at a somewhat lower frequency that is less directional and less likely to call attention to a single subs location in the room.

True but if your mains are 2-way, they will have more IM distortion in the midrange, and will have much more excursion below resonance, leading to limited dynamic range. Well integrated, an 80 Hz cut off is just fine. Maybe even 100 Hz.


Honestly though, in my mind integration is such a difficult task for most that whichever way you find easiest to integrate well s probably the right one and then leave it alone. :)

Best,

E

Eric that is true and always an option but an external crossover would be needed to limit the low end on the mains with most subs. Not sure about this one in particular.
That adds cost and complexity as well. Maybe worth it to offload more to sub and limit mains if needed to go louder and clearer later. A trade off depending on users appetite. and needs.
Yes bass swarm adds more complexity as well but that is what you need if balanced bass throughout the room is a concern in most cases.   Personally I will pass on that but some may have a need and choose to conquer. 

kr43,477 posts07-24-2020

here is no crossover in the e110, so there's really no point to doing this.

Turn the FEQ, all the way down, Counter Clock Wise.

What's an FEQ?

My suggestions are to consider a preamp with bass management, an external crossover and/or an external DSP for equalizing the sub in your room.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

There is a Crossover...

According to the picture I saw, and the spec sheet I read.
The FREQ, OX, FEQ, all refer to the crossover point, 25-125, I believe

There is a master gain control, a 0-180 phase switch, a 0-220 variable
and a selectable XO from 25-125 or so..

I suggest starting LOW, all the way to the left, CCW, at 25 and slowly turn it up, until it starts getting boomy, then back it off a bit. It's going to be around 30-35 or so. Makes sure EVERYTHING is at 0 on the tone control, if you have it on the pre, OR anywhere else for that matter EQs everything.. All ZERO (0).

BECAUSE you can't move the sub, there is going to be a bit of a timing issue. Simple too.

In the seated position, once the XO is close (FREQ)  try adding a little phase correction at a time, maybe 20 at a time until you hear the clearest, LOUDEST (defined) bass notes. When the bass goes away, it's to far out of phase, turn it bac a bit.. When it's in time (as close as you can get it)  you'll be able to hear ALL the notes, not just the one note bass, or cancellation, due to combing.

Again SEATED, no where else matters, because room treatment, la-te-da... ok...Seated only!

Most folks add a sub, not understanding, to much is just BAD. less is always better in the 20-80 hz range, BUT you got to have it, for the best sound...30hz to 20Khz.

Enjoy..

Regards

Eric that is true and always an option but an external crossover would be needed to limit the low end on the mains with most subs. Not sure about this one in particular.

Um, sealing will raise the -3 dB point of the mains and, most importantly, limit driver excursion which id what I was getting to. Even without an active filter. Below resonance the port is basically just a huge hole, and the suspension value of the air trapped in the cabinet vanishes. Take a look at the very last graphs on this article, and compare to the 2nd pair of graphs:


https://www.audioholics.com/loudspeaker-design/sealed-vs-ported-subwoofers



By sealing the port, the cabinet volume maintains it’s suspension value below resonance, and therefore limits this movement, allowing the driver to handle higher output than it would otherwise. Also, this raises the speaker’s effective -3dB point, perhaps only by 10 Hz or less. Assuming it was ported before, and you seal it, the speaker would become over-damped and roll off too soon compared to an ideal sealed. Again, with the right EQ on the sub, the combination can be pretty good.

Limiting excursion means you can apply more power before the driver taps out. 

Not as good as an active, carefully integrated solution, but some important benefits to be considered when adding a sub.

@erik_squires wrote: 

"Um, sealing will limit the mains and, most importantly, limit driver excursion which is what I was getting to. Even without a filter. Below resonance the port is basically just a huge hole, and the suspension value of the air trapped in the cabinet vanishes." 

I agree.  Sealing the port(s) is certainly worth trying, and if you can avoid having to insert a highpass filter in the signal path going to the main speakers, so much the better. 

If you have multiple ports and can plug some of them, or otherwise lower the tuning frequency to simultaneously get some low-bass contribution while protecting the woofer better than the normal tuning did, that may blend even better with the sub(s).  

Duke

Well you can certainly try it both ways with and without port and listen to determine which is better.  
I recently removed the port plugs on my kef ls50s for the first time to see how that worked.  I felt soundstage  and imaging was a bit off with more bass out of the single sub compared to past setups in that room.  Seems better now with KEFs doing more work.   Of course every case is different and there are always trade offs. 

The sub is actually not for bass but the mid-range.  It relaxes the mids so there is better sound, details and more accurate.  If you re trying to improve the bass response for your speakers it actually is not the best way to do it.

Happy Listening.

Well I don't see how one can argue a sub is not for bass, but I will agree how it is done will likely have an impact on mid-range.

N80 one subwoofer is a joke may be three

Let me apologize about my posts.  I was thinking about the f110 and spoke, in error, with regard to the e110.

I have asked the moderators to delete the posts.

George,
if you are constrained with placement options and number of subs (two is better, a DSA is best), this little dsp device works wonders:
http://www.dspeaker.com/en/products/anti-mode-8033.shtml
You will notice a virtually complete elimination of the room modes (causing the boomy bass).
Connection wise you run your speakers full range and insert this little unit between line out and sub.
Good luck.

Very interesting gadget!

Sell the subwoofer. 

Hmm yeah well looking at specs for your mains which go down to 32hz and the 10” sub which only goes to 25 hz, on paper, it does not seem like the sub adds much. Maybe in a larger room and/or if main amp is underpowered to drive the speakers to their full capacity. Also relatively few recordings will have enough going on at those frequencies to tell. Sounds like a tough task with very marginal benefit at best. Losing the sub may not be a bad idea. You probably do not really need one.

To everyone’s credit in this thread, I saw info & equipment resources either I would use or recommend to empower others.

To all I MUST emphasize caution using EQ boosting more than 2-3dB to “correct” system frequency response. If you take on the mindset of a wood or stone carver, using an EQ* to remove to shape the response, you’re far less LIKELY** to blow your speakers or sub. Too much EQ often introduces other artifacts. YMMV
*I much prefer PEQs over graphic.
** boosting much below a sealed sub’s F3, can cause trouble FAST. I would NOT the same a ported sub the bottom octave or so unless I had the $ to replace - but that’s me

OP: Consider listening to just the sub at length using different cutoff frequencies. Also moving your sub and/mains an inch or two in one direction or another can make a big diff in room response. 

Also the “mains” F3 vs the sub F3: the main’s driver handling 100hz up to the mid range, typically though several factors govern same etc, that driver’s octave, octave and a half MAY not be it’s strong suit in bass quality. YMMV on this.

I agree that using a sub to relieve the mains below 100 hz benefits the mids by reducing Doppler effects.

To be fair, my 5.5 Home Theatre, before I deployed a dedicated sub* for each corner* channel*, I listened to music full range, NO sub(s) because of what the OP and others w/integration struggle.
*each corner channel sub**, thanks to extensive DSP driven XO use, receives the sub signal just for that channel. The System LFE/sub*** handles the Center frequencies below 80hz.
** a 12 1/2” WAF cube that’s accurate, but not loud, to 27hz
*** a bigger brother, like** but accurate to 20hz

Thanks for reading this far, tony

Thanks again guys. I've read through all this and I'm trying to process it. I've only been into hi-fi a few years and it has mostly been with equipment that has been handed down to me and in this case inherited.

All of which is to say, my technical understanding is meager. For instance, I don't know what a PEQ is. I'm assuming it is a separate equalizer? And that is to say that a fair amount of what you guys are saying is sailing right over my head.

As for sealing the ports on the back of the main speakers, Aerial Acoustics makes plugs for them (well, they do on their other speakers, I can't swear they do with the 6T) so I'm assuming the speaker was designed to incorporate them. It was also my assumption that if a speaker with a rear ports had to be up against a wall then it could be beneficial to close the ports. Without the sub I left them open and thought they sounded fine. I plugged them while using the sub just because it seemed like the thing to do.

There is a chance I might be able to get away with placing the sub in a better position. Will have to see if I can sneak that in. Not at home right now. Will try tomorrow.


Once I do that I will play with the controls as you guys have recommended and see what I can come up with. I'll make a list of several songs that bring out the best and worse and see how it goes.


As for running cables from the sub back into the amp, well, right now everything is being driven by an old integrated. I will be replacing that either with a Sprout100, a Sonos Amp or something similar so I'm not sure how to do that.


Several of you have recommended that I get rid of the sub. That is currently my intention and it is for sale (I've sold one of the pair of them already). The truth is that there was never a perceived need for the sub to my ears; I just tried it because it was there with the other pieces from this estate. As mentioned, in some cases it did sound good. If I can get it to sound decent within the serious constraints I'm bound by then it is mine to keep. If I decide not to keep it I will sell it and the funds go to the estate which I'm fine with.

Again, I genuinely appreciate all the info given here.

George

Followup:
Moved the sub around a bit. Made various adjustments as recommended in some of the posts above and did in fact get close to a balance among various recordings. But in the end I also listened to just the mains, ports unplugged and position optimized within the limitations of the room and by themselves they sounded as good or maybe even better than with the sub.

Bottom line, within the restrictions I have and within the bounds of my ears there is no need for the sub.

Thanks again for all the assistance.

George

Makes sense.  Glad the problem was resolved.