I have a decent digital front end with a Lumin U1 Mini (w/ external power supply) and a Border Patrol SE dac. Have some CDs, but no transport. Would a CD transport sound better than a streamer of similar quality/price?
I stream Qobuz daily for roughly 3 - 4 hours depending upon how involved I become with what I’m doing on my desktop. I’m not looking for high fidelity there, it’s simply the easiest way to listen to any music. If I feel that a certain track or artist deserves better attention, sometimes I’ll connect my Peachtree Deep Blue via Bluetooth - somewhat higher fi, but definitely not audiophile quality. Sounds better than my Mac desktop’s speakers do by any measure.
My physical desktop’s real estate is occupied with assorted art materials, and organized personal clutter; I have zero interest in adding outboard speakers or any other peripheral to the space. I know full well what I’m getting, and I’m okay with it given the context.
I’m a dedicated two-channel guy. I do my “serious” listening in my downstairs living room where I have what I believe to be a pretty decent mid-fi collection of gear for that purpose. (Belles 250i Mosfet Integrated amplifier, a cheap-seats Pro Ject Carbon EVO turntable, Musical Fidelity Elektra A264 24 bit compact disc player, Aurender N100H 2 terabyte server, Magnepan MMG loudspeakers, and a REL T5i subwoofer. I’m awaiting the arrival of a Schiit DAC to complement the Aurender later this week.) I use decent cables from Transparent Audio, Anti-Cables, and a few others. Not too shabby.
I stream Qobuz via a 9th Generation iPad through this, as well as my 700+ CD library through the Aurender. (I leave the CD player unconnected to a DAC. It sounds damn good on its own, and it’s fun sometimes to compare it with files from the Aurender.)
I probably listen to vinyl the least only because I’m looking to relax down there. While there is much to be appreciated for vinyl’s aesthetic qualities, there is as much to be said for its drawbacks. Among the more obvious and less admitted drawbacks is how sensitive a turntable is to vibration of any kind - from the cheap-seats brands to the more esoteric brands - I’ve had both - they are prone to transmitting everything through your speakers. On the plus side is reading liner notes, viewing the album art, etc. Neither streaming or compact discs can impart that pleasure the same way.
Having been introduced to music on vinyl only - yeah, I’m old - I never revered a turntable as the end-all component I embraced all the other formats through the years, reel-to-reel, cassettes, eight track, compact discs, and I welcome streaming for what it offers (Well, I didn’t welcome the right track all that much, but my first car had a deck in it)
I’ve chased the audiophile dragon hard for the last ten years or so, (damn you, Audiogon!) and while I can state that some of the more expensive components DO make a positive difference, the law of diminishing returns apply in hearing them. More importantly, in paying for them. The difference between a Pioneer SX1050 stereo receiver and a Ieap into separates - my journey way back when - is palpable, tangible, an “aha!” moment.
Now the setup that I have allows me to look for “aha!” moments in the music again, not the equipment I hear it through. A great tune hits you where you feel it on an am radio or a $50,000 collection of components. When you suck at golf the first tried and true adage is that “it ain’t the clubs, laddie.”
I have top-notch streaming gear and no longer us a cd player or vinyl. Tidal, Qobuz, reference DAC, Roon Plus, high end cabling, high end ethernet cables and switch. Not to mention my wonderful, beautiful conductor of the music, the iPad. Streaming sounds so wonderful in my rig that it made me totally forget about everything else.
Strange. Love this hobby! I found Tidal to sound like you experienced Qobuz. I find Qobuz more relaxed and richer with more natural tone and frequency balance top to bottom.
I am not an EE, but even I can see that Uptown audio white paper assumes incompetence on the part of designers, and ignorance on the part of readers.
They could easily show this with measurements if true
They are still sending data via USB, so this phase-noise overlay will still occur.
I have sat in enough PCB design reviews, and been involved in enough IC design to know their claims of ground plane noise can be effectively reduced, obviously based on product measurements, to a level where it is not a limiting factor. In terms of the impact on timing inside an IC or product it is a factor of transition time of the clock edge through metastable bounds. With fast edges, power supply / ground noise is going to have limited impact.
It is easy to type something on a keyboard and claim it is true as Uptown has done. But as Charles Hitchens said, that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. On the other hand, you will find many a discussion on the web about clock integrity in noisy environments including impact on jitter.
Well for me have a modest collection of cd's wanted a good player, Went with the Jays version 3.
Got a streamer, Byrston Bdp3 with Qobuz. The upper octaves are elevated as opposed to mid-range on down, Was ready to sell the Bryston stick with CD playback.
For curiosity, I downloaded Tidal, And the difference is Huge. Sound equals or slightly surpasses The cd tansport. really does. Im sold on streaming Tidal.
Sorry GHD I can’t agree. Serving up this information would be rudimentary if they wanted to. If anything I have found a digression in easily available data. My understanding from research is that royalty rates are not the same for every track and hence there are business advantages to directing the consumer to specific versions not to mention that reducing the number of "popular" tracks allows vendors to reduce costs w.r.t to caching at various pops and the underlying bandwidth to support that further bringing down costs. Streaming is not really new at this point. Spotify, Google Music, Qoboz, Deezer are all over a decade old.
Coming from the a background of information processing and managing huge programming and systems implementation projects, I assure you it is not purposefully hiding information about the recordings. It is a question of providing what the customer wants the most as fast as possible… and adding “nice to have” features later. This is a new highly competitive field… in ten or twenty years you will probably be able to find any version or mastering you want. If there is a service that will provide this data… and multiple versions first it is Qobuz.
The hardest thing with streaming is the providence of the recording. I think streaming services purposely make it difficult to quickly find specific recordings. I find when I am comparing a specific recording (and volume levelling is off) there is no difference from CD and streaming.
I have both an SACD/CD transport and Roon Nucleus Plus streaming server and I'd say, in terms of SQ it might be a "toss up". They both are connected to the same DAC. One thing that might be a plus for streaming is that, sometimes the CD I own is from an older master and my Qobuz version is more recently mastered and sounds just a bit better...probably being that it was mastered on newer, better equipment.
There should be no wi-fi hassles. Because for the very best audio everything should be wired (with the exception, of course, of the control tab or phone). Ripped CDs should sound better than CDs on most players and at least as good as CDs on the very best, and very expensive, players.
And as @mahler123 writes, when you are beyond the reach of the internet you can have the media on your phone. Or you can have gigabites of media on a small USB disk in your pocket. You don’t have to carry around a CD player and buckets of disks.
I agree that all these formats, streaming included, have their pros and cons. Having just had a few days of vacation in a remote area with bad wi fi I was very glad to have 50 or so albums loaded on my phone. Even in my home I prefer Physical Media slightly for sonics and then minus the WiFi hassles.
I became an "audiophile" in 1968 when all I knew was that a very good system would enhance my love of "listening to music". Hence, over the years, I have collected 6000 LPs, 4000 silver discs, and a few dozen cassettes. In addition I have perfected my streaming setup to reside as an equal to the physical media. I also use a tuner.
Any of the above formats, excluding cassettes and tuner with their obvious limitations, offer a wide range of sound quality. Take CD, which can sound from sublime to absolute digital screech!?! LPs, from sublime to noisy, warped, non-concentric, indistinct hash!?! Streaming, from sublime to you have to take what they give you, which is often mediocre and not a lot of fun to listen to!?!
If I was new to the hobby today, would I invest in physical media? Probably, but you have to store it and move it, but you own it!! And hands on has its own tactile joy. An evening playing LPs, with all the steps of flipping and cleaning, and reading album notes, is an evening well spent!!!
Another plug for Qobuz A few minutes ago, I had a hankering to hear Eric Clapton-led, original Brit super-group Cream's first single "I Feel Free." Knowing that my British pressing of Fresh Cream did not contain the cut (it has a marvelous studio recording of Spoonful instead), I searched for the 45 I knew I had. No dice. It seems to have disappeared. So I cued up Qobuz and, sure enough, not only did they have the exact cut I craved to hear, it sounded as good as I've ever heard it.
Streaming all day, every day. Tidal subscription to Roon Nucleus+ to my integrated amp - nice, simple, and the music is every bit is good (if not better) than CD or other sources. Plus I get to sit on my sofa and choose music from the convenience of my iPad.
@charles1dad-- I use a relatively inexpensive Cambridge CXN that the phone voice at Upscale Audio recommended. My Mytek Brooklyn Bridge had just bit the dust, and I just couldn't hack listening via my Laptop PC. The Cambridge is connected via Earthlink sourced from my telephone company. In other words, nothing fancy. In any case, the Mytek might have given me a bit more image solidity and 3D, but the Cambridge is still quite 3D and its tone quality is more natural than I got via the Mytek. The Cambridge also runs considerably cooler, which makes me believe it might actually last longer than that damnable, fussy Mytek did. BTW, I'm mostly a classical guy. I play the violin...which makes me believe I know string tone.
Yep… that is the compelling case for streaming. I like spinning vinyl occasionally, but it is like riding a horse… it is great for the experience, but sure isn’t efficient, comfortable and the highest quality ride.
What can I say? I'm truly in love with streaming, this despite my wall of records and six foot tall rack of CDs. SQ competes with and often surpasses my vinyl. Selection is vast. Idagio and Qobuz use their evil algorithms to suss out my tastes and offer up endless enlightenment and pleasure. It's liberating. It's like encountering a fine wine steward at a restaurant. Sure, the true obscurities in my 45's and LP collections will probably never be offered up by the streamers but that's okay. The streaming sites offer plenty of obscurities of their own. Idagio's Women in Music section, for example, regularly rewards me with absolutely first class listening moments.
At first, I was one of the biggest sceptics of streaming music. I was totally convinced that the steaming SQ was inferior to that of an high end cd player. But, during the course of time, after many positive listening session with streamed music at Audio Dealers, Audio Shows and fellow Audiophiles homes, I decided to give streaming a shot in my own home high end rig. Long story short, I was able to achieve cd and beyond SQ from my system only after being willing to purchase a reference level DAC, ethernet cables, switch, tweaks, Roon Nucleus Plus and all associated equipment. No more cd's or vinyl for this guy!!!
Matching clocks is another often overlooked issue with clocks. Sine wave vs square wave, what freq. running at. I recently experienced what I presume this issue in rather recent negative experience with audiophile switch. I believe John at Uptone has another white paper discussing these issues.
@pwaylandI have nearly the same digital front end kit with the PS Audio DAC and Network Bridge, using Roon with Tidal and Qobuz libraries, a great source of enjoyment and musical experience
Nice summary - and I sort of do get where clocking is relevant from within the streamer or from within the CD player - but before that - no - I don't get it.
At the time of streaming say from Qobuz - the transmission of the data from Qobuz is sent in the correct binary order (courtesy of TCP) to the streamer - so if all the information at the streamer is identical to the information from Qobuz then nothing is lost en-route to the streamer whatsoever! The data arrives at the streamer identical to that from Qobuz.
And when the data is being sent to the streamer over IP there is no need at this point to make a perfect analogue waveform, therefore no clocks needed - just a checksum to ensure perfect data delivery.
Clocking from within the streamer fine - but clocking before the streamer on network switches at the data send stage when TCP is involved - sorry I am still lost. But I sit here open minded and I am happy to be proven wrong ....
I just don't want us gullible audiophiles to be mugged off.
Your question about clocking is a good one and it only takes about 2 seconds to get me out of my comfort zone
I'll share what little I think I understand
The issue of clocking is part of an age old problem of jitter in the digital waveform and not specific to streaming, we have the same issue with CD playback, thus the TCP algorithms and protocols may or may not always apply, depending on where the clocking occurs
My limited understanding is one of the mechanism of reducing jitter is improving the precision of the clocking and providing a more accurate digital waveform for conversion and thus improved SQ at analog playback
That seems to lead to various opinions on where the clocking should occur, what device gets to be the master clock, should it be re-clocked and circuitry discussions - ALL WAY OVER MY HEAD
Here's some marketing specs from an audio grade network switch highlighting the advantages of their clocking technology
I've also seen various stand alone master clock hardware that sits between the transport and the DAC
I've read about one master clock that improves accuracy by maintaining frequency temperature characteristics
Since temperature has a huge effect on accuracy of the crystal oscillator, minimising temperature changes and maintaining it at an ideal level are extremely important in order to generate an accurate clock signal. The CG-10M employs an innovative oven-controlled crystal oscillator, the TEAC Reference OCXO to reduce oscillation frequency fluctuations caused by temperature changes.
What does a master clock do in audio?
The clock provides that timing information and allows the waveform to be reconstructed as an analogue signal correctly when required (assuming the sample rate is more than twice the highest frequency component of the audio signal being sampled).
I find the concepts both amusing and intriguing, does my system need a master clock?
Heck if I know but I'll know it when I hear it, and that will require me to evaluate a couple in my system over time
Hope that helps and there are many on this forum MUCH more qualified than I to tell us both in layman terms the conventional thinking in this space
Man, I appreciate the deep dive of the analog vinyl aficionados. I'm lazy to this end and just love the Qobuz & Tidal feed to my Roon Rock Nuc>Optical Lan> PS audio Bridge>PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC MKII. 192Khz 24 bit is better than cd. The rabbit hole of digital is just as deep as analog but when it is right. It is oh so right. Peace
In another thread on cables, I linked an article by the Pink Floyd recording engineers but there's this one statement about digital recordings and making copies:
In my opinion there are a lot of misconceptions about digital audio. Disregarding the good points, some of the bad points are that it is almost impossible to do a digital to digital copy and retain the resolution; it is far more susceptible to the sound changing from many different reasons – RF, A/C mains, harmonic distortion and fluctuation, physical vibrations, etc., than most people realize. What we have tried to achieve is to get our HD system sounding as good as possible, given the parameters of what it is in the first place. We have spent many days listening and testing. Accordingly, every area of improvement has been implemented to the highest degree: all the A/C mains, audio cabling, digital cabling, anti jitter boxes, master clocks, physical support of the units, etc.
Granted, that was back in 2005, but it's still relevant today.
So if the streamer is always getting a perfect binary signal where does it go wrong?
Well the only thing I can think of is that noise is entering the system along with the binary stream. It's noise that's the polluter nothing else can be!
You're right it's noise of various kinds, e.g, but not limited to - RF, EMI, and high-impedance leakage currents from SMPS and network component clocks that increase jitter and clock phase noise.
The whole clocking thing is another space I haven't grasped enough to figure out how to make it right or even better
Thus there are some products available to address reducing the noise in our perfect binary signals
Here's a couple of links that describe the problem(s) and some products that improve the SQ
Ultimately there is no arguing with the fact that all the 1's and 0's get to the streamer in the right order because of the TCP/IP protocol which is designed to do this.
So what does this mean? This means the music is sent perfectly to the streamer / bridge.
So if the streamer is always getting a perfect binary signal where does it go wrong?
Well the only thing I can think of is that noise is entering the system along with the binary stream. It's noise that's the polluter nothing else can be!
But whatever the outcome - TCP/IP ensures a perfect binary order due to checksumming the stream <-- therefore nothing at all can go wrong at this stage (unless you have a bad network).
Keetakawee @Fidelizer-Audio provides excellent customer service. Be sure to be clear on how you plan to use the AirStream. That will determine how he formats the firmware. For my WiFi, the AirStream was formatted as an access point - not as a router which provides the DLNA. This added another LPS, power cord & ethernet cable. Yet, it can be defaulted to a standard router that provides the DLNA. If you’ll be using it in a hardwired manner, the setup might be different. Get the particulars first.
I agree with you wholeheartedly on clean power and synergy. That’s what I set out to accomplish four years ago when I started putting together my current system. And yes, Sablon Ethernet cables are well designed and highly sought after. I did reach out to Mark Coles to make me a set of Ethernet cable with M12 connectors but to my disappointment, he stopped working with M12 plugs. I end up going with JCAT Signature LAN GOLD M12 X, amazing cable and I couldn’t be any happier with end results.
Thank you again for your recommendation on Fidelizer router, definitely going to audition one in very near future.
I was offered the Linn cd12 at at great prices the dealer was wanting rid of it and I should have done what it took to buy that one but I past on it back in the day.
Yes, the original price was rather steep. I heard one at a London show around 20 years ago, and whilst it didn’t fully convince me, I was certainly impressed by vastness of the size and scale of the image it literally threw out into the room.
Strawberry Fields Forever has never sounded the same since.
Having said all of that, nothing (so far) can match streaming for sheer convenience. Particularly if, like me, you’re not one to play albums from start to finish.
I can’t think of than a dozen like that.
So just imagine having over 100GB of music at your fingertips.
Thank you for sharing the info on router and picture of your setup. I must handed to you on your dedication and diligence in ensuring what appears to be a sublime streaming system.
Fidelizer is a manufacturer of very good quality products. I have no experience with the featured Airstream Wi-Fi product. I do however use their Nikola 2 linear power supply with my Pro-Ject RS2T CD transport and it is a fantastic pairing. I'm thoroughly happy with the sound quality'
entitled to your opinion and beliefs like anyone else. I
Fair enough. So are you! My post wasn't intended as a request for you to retract your statement anyway...but I thought it called for a response, which I too stand behind!
Enjoy your gear. It sounds like you have a lot to play with...that's really the fun to me.
After carefully reading your post, I am standing by my statement in its entirety. This is a open discussion forum and you are certainly entitled to your opinion and beliefs like anyone else. And I do appreciate your participation.
“Every streamer or server out there regardless of price simply benefits from noise filters placed in between server or streamer and your router. To what degree, that comes down to your components and overall system transparency.”
In the name of adding balance and credibility to your beliefs, would you please care to tell us your streaming setup and what have you tried so far? BTW, here is the my original post.
Sure, although any attempt at thoroughness would seriously hijack this thread. I had no intention of doing that.
I have 3 streamers at the moment - 2 that I custom built based on The Computer Audiophile specs for their CAPS streamers -- fanless ATOM boards with SOTM USB cards and SOTM ATA filters (which didn't affect sound in my tests) -- and an Auralic Aries, each outputting to different DACs via USB, AES/EBU, Coax, presently I am rotating between a W4S DAC2, a Mytek Liberty II and a Schiit Gumby.
I'm on my 5th generation (yeah I wanted to get these right) of home-built Roon core servers (2 locations) which I found have to be seriously overbuilt to mitigate Roon's various bugs and resource leaks. Network is 10Gb ethernet all wired.
Listening through either a Levinson, BAT or Bryston preamp and typically through rebuilt Magnepan 3.-series actively biamped (Marchand crossover) through Krell, Classe, or Levinson amps and REL subs. Stream Tidal/Qobuz although I have a local library of about 4000 titles; many of them my own DVDA and SACD rips.
I've moved houses and replaced all network gear through multiple generations; changed out network gear dozens of times to no impact. Experimented with all kinds and standards of wi-fi as well. Assuming standard network gear up to spec and protocol, there's no difference in swapping out that gear. I find that you don't get much or any difference in these tweaks (meaning specifically data transport) until you get to the DAC - I've rotated through 8 or 10 of those.
But look, this isn't even about my particular opinion. When I see an absolutist statement that ALL streamers/servers benefit from network noise filters, I am simply saying there are lots of educated folks who disagree.
I have zero issue with your intention to add as you put it balance to this discussion. I suspect that most following this thread feel the same. I've inquired several time out of genuine curiosity for you to cite or describe these credible people who dismiss digital streaming path noise as a factor affecting sound quality.
I have listed previously the names of highly esteemed manufacturers who do believe that noise is a real and present issue. They have produced and offer ultra quality streamers/servers based on this concept. I'm simply asking you who are the designers/developers/builders (Credible as you put it) of these type of components who believe noise is a non factor? What have they produced?
In the name of adding balance and credibility to your beliefs, would you please care to tell us your streaming setup and what have you tried so far? BTW, here is the my original post.
“Every streamer or server out there regardless of price simply benefits from noise filters placed in between server or streamer and your router. To what degree, that comes down to your components and overall system transparency.”
It wasn't intended to be smug but apologies for any insult. In reference to this quote, I don't feel too bad about calling it out. It's an extreme statement:
Every streamer or server out there regardless of price simply benefits from noise filters placed in between server or streamer and your router.
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