Thanks for the compliment. The amp stands are by Core Audio Designs. As far as grounding box from Entreq and Acoustic Revive, there is no secret to what’s inside. The description can be found on their respective websites. I have not attempted to open them nor have any desire to do so….they simply works! Both Entreq and Acoustic Revive are equally effective in lowering the noise floor.
Streamer upgrade? follow up.
I posted the first part of this earlier in the week. There are a few other threads running concurrently here about this same subject.This is my personal experience with this situation.Ive been using a Aurender A100 streamer/dac which is they’re entry level unit, the SQ wasn’t horrible but I was pretty sure I could get it better.In a attempt to do that I purchased a Denafrips Pontus two and a DhLabs Mirage Usb cable to use with the A100 utilizing its Usb out.The two local hi fi dealers here in SO Cal both told me this would not produce much of an result and in my opinion after trying it they were both correct. So… as I stated in the first post I was coming from a “bit is bits” perspective which was I was convinced adding a better Dac would accomplish my goals, I just couldn’t believe that the zeros and ones could possibly effect the quality of sound. But not being one to give up I decided in for penny in for a pound Id see for myself if there was anything to the other side of this conversation, I wanted a new toy for Xmas anyway.So I traded my A100 plus some cash to TMR ( nice people btw) for a shiny new Aurender N200 which arrived yesterday. Last night the moment of truth, I hooked up the new unit with the exact same everything as before in my system nothing different but the streamer.I let the tubes and everything else warm up for a few hours,picked a song I knew inside and out sat down and pressed play. Immediately within the first few notes of the Stones “ Wild Horses “ I knew I had made the right choice and that I was wrong believing bits are bits “. I really don’t have adequate language to describe the difference in sound quality other than to say I feel like Im in someone else’s home listening to they’re far superior system, its that drastic.I can with complete confidence say this has got to be one of if not the most significant upgrades Ive made in my system, scouts honor! PS. Grinin ear to ear here.
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@lalitk what are those amp/gear stands your using in your room? Did you build those yourself? Very nice. Also could we diy a ground kit? What's in them? Have you looked? |
Check out Entreq Macro ground box Kit and read up on basic principles of grounding. I am using total of 4 Entreq Boxes, one per component (2 Macro Boxes and 2 Silver Minimus) in my system. The idea is to drain away noise/interference/pollutants into the connected ground box. And it works beautifully yielding to a calm, organic and refined presentation by lowering noise floor. |
@lalitk I am using a Kimber Illuminations D-60 Coax, I do not understand what a mineral based ground is or how it works. |
@ianrmack @lalitk @bikeboy52 I also have a modified Node 2i with SBooster linear power supply and output via a Nordost Silver Shadow coax digital cable to a Chord Qutest DAC. I also thought the modified Node 2i sound was excellent and couldn’t be improved. But I finally bought an Aurender N150 three months ago and have been blown away by the improvement. The streamer really does matter if your other equipment is good. Give the streamer 300 hours to burn-in, but you’ll know after 100 hrs, and a good power cable and good USB cable. |
i have the new Pontus 12th for playback of my lossless files. i believe source matters a lot. Rega Amp. another point is that i often travel and can not always depend on a wifi connection to stream. i attend the symphony in various countries around the world as well to keep my ears in tune. currently i use a Bluesound 2i that works very well with the new Pontus 12th. if Denafrips where to build a streamer only i would of course take a serious look at it. it might be interesting to upgrade to the new Node 130 which has USB output and run it into the Denafrips Iris and than out to the Pontus. also think of getting a IFI coax noise suppressor for the coax output of the OPPO player that serves my flac. files. from a external hard drive. |
@malibu457 - That's only worth it if you have great equipment to play back those lossless files. How are you doing that? |
The Wiim Pro is out and flying. Audiophile-grade with coax and optical out, bit perfect with hi res. $150 If USB is a necessity this won't be your cup of tea to test. Add some LPS and fiber, and let’s duel it out. 🤹🏼 No regrets here at this cost of entry. They are available via Amazon and are making a wave. Understandably with excellent software, frequent updates, and great performance. If you're in the streamer consideration arena, worth a listen. |
I believe many will agree with this comment if you honestly can’t hear a difference. It would make no sense to buy the more expensive component if no sonic improvement is heard. There are many listeners however who do clearly hear unequivocally better sound quality. Lots of people got into streaming initially with the lower cost, entry level type of audio streamer. They subsequently have found much better sound quality with higher level dedicated audio servers/streamers. The audible difference is as clear as can be based on their listening experience. @malibu457 , what are some of the higher price music servers/network players you’ve compared with Node and found no improvement in sound quality? Again, if you have done this and there’s no improvement to be had, you are wise to stick with your current Node streamer. Charles |
“the Node is good enough to discover new artist via streaming” I agree, if one’s purpose from streaming is to discover music then a Node, Raspberry Pi or Allo Digi One type of devices are more than adequate. Tidal offers FREE access to their 90+million song catalog to all those who wants to use streaming for discovering music. |
@sns Thanks for your post. I am not sure at all, but i suggest that you may have to do something with Aurender company... and it was interesting to learn something about how these products are cooked. I didn't think N200 may have parts of that cost inside... I wish to try some alternative to the Bluesound Node 2i. I like an idea to combine a streamer with a music server and also to have both, Ethernet and WiFi options, because of two reasons. One, to be able to compare directly their SQ, and two, in my case i will need about 15 meters long Ethernet cable, at least, this will not look nice. I wish you and OP all the best in your art/business, and happy New Year to everyone! |
@bikeboy52 I too am amazed at how some of the low margin, meaning relatively lower or sanely priced manufacturers stay in business. They need to move quantity in order to survive, can't figure out how you move quantity with audiophiles being such a rare breed. My sense is the really high end manufacturers charging big bucks have much higher profit margins, many costs are fixed regardless of component price. The added costs, such as superior parts, greater R&D efforts are proportionally less to total cost of component. The highest end audio also tends to sell itself, at least once reputation is attained. Also, less competition, perhaps no competition for the truly bespoke component means one can charge whatever market will bear.
So, in a way, if above is true, the highest end components offer the least value for money, however, if they do something truly unique value is virtually unmeasurable.
I'm involved in family business, we're lucky in that we've established a reputation after forty years in business. We had to really work for business years ago, now we can't keep up with orders. Good luck with your business! |
@sns Nice informative well thought out post , thanks sns. I’ve owned and run a micro business in Southern California for 37 years. My perspective on businesses both large and small is based on my own experiences during that time. Im constantly shocked at the cost of doing business especially here in So Cal. Sometimes Im amazed these high or higher end hi fi companies can stay afloat, they’re not dealing in the main stream market place but a rather small niche that Im told is actually shrinking.Im sure alot of these companies struggle especially at the R&D phase keeping they’re costs in line based on the number of units they anticipate selling, it’s gotta be a gamble. Keep listening, dig your system btw, Id love to hear it I can tell it sounds great you wouldn’t have it any other way Im sure. |
@niodari I've been diy building/assembling desktop computers, modding mac minis for music server exclusive duty for many years. Also was in midst of researching and planning building/assembling an extremely high end bespoke streamer, which didn't pan out as I was provided with opportunity to purchase a custom build that pretty much replicated what I was intending to build. The bespoke streamer contains $4k worth of parts plus cost of subscription to Euphony OS. Add $6K for LPS to power it. I can tell you very factually vast majority of off the shelf don't come close to this. One can open up any of these streamers and determine the exact cost of these components, vast majority use parts you or I could purchase. Some use custom build motherboards, but even those aren't that expensive, I'd estimate $1k in internal parts for many. Keep in mind one isn't paying for parts alone, enclosures, R&D for seamless use and optimizing OS, and proprietary music players if offered. At the top end, add nice power supplies, proper rendering, even more R&D, there is good reason the Taiko Extreme, Wadax, Aurender, Innuos, etc. best streamers cost big bucks. One then needs to add in business model costs, distribution, dealer markups, etc.
Bottom line, each individual has to determine cost/value proposition. Many things other than cost of internal parts enters equation. DIY will require one's own R&D, many hours labor, hassles, steep learning curve, no warranties, may not be any technical help, more things I'm probably forgetting. I'd never claim off the shelf to be ripoff, diy not for faint of heart! |
The question arose because of the cost of a computer device with a power supply that just transmits data and has a small screen. I don't know if such a device may r contain expensive parts and labor, might well be the case. I posted a question. Ideally, besides the owner, ordinary employers should also benefit from a high cost product they produce. You say that this is not how it works ("free" market), I readily agree that it is true. |
@thyname Thank you , I just didn’t have the energy or time to explain that today.Ive been putting in some serious hours at my job in our free market economy. |
reality exists in the specifics, the details -- not in generalities some of these comments are as insightful as europeans saying ’americans are fat, lazy, entitled, and uneducated’ as a blanket statement... totally useless and ignorant, even if sometimes accurate... more importantly, it provides zero insight and understanding |
This is NOT how it works. In US or any free market economy. The wages are set by the market forces, business decision, and do not depend on the price of the manufactured end product. What country do you live in?
This is South Korea. Not North Korea. Free market economy & business decisions determine wages, not the Glorious Leader |
@vthokie83 I learned something new from your post, thanks for the input. It is interesting how AirLens sounds with these two combined features as a streamer, compared to e g. Aurender N200. |
@bikeboy52 I would agree with the idea of employing these people if they had proportionally (to the cost of their products) high salary, i am afraid this might not be the case in Korea. Regards |
Laltik, I was of the understanding that the Airlens was re-clocker/signal cleanser; my apologies if it is redundant. The point however is the same, there are terrific options at every price point that each of us can afford.No one at the affordable level, and no one at the high end should be ignored or bashed for their needs or wants. I ended up with a great system that is affordable for me, and a lot of that knowledge came from these threads. I'd just like the next guy to benefit the same as I have. |
It's funny how EVERY thread regarding streamers or DACs turns into this back and forth which provides no value to anyone. I come here to listen to other people's input on what works well for them.....not pissing contests. I think we need to remember that there are readers on this and all threads who are at every price point, and they deserve to get quality recommendations. And yes I understand that this particular post is in relation to the Aurender N200. (1) A Bluesound Node 130 (not Node 2i as it does not output USB) is a terrific streamer at it's price point; as long as you have a nice DAC to bypass it's internal DAC and SQ improves dramatically.....especially using USB. Add an upstream DDC like the Denafrips Iris ($550) which reclocks and cleans the signal (galvanically and optically) and output I2S to the Pontus II ups the ante again. Total cost about $1,050 for the Node 130 and Iris DDC. (2) Step up to the Auralic streamer at $3,200 and yes you will get an improvement in SQ over the Node 130; and add the Iris DDC at $550 and you will definitely be at a level the Node cannot reach. Total cost about $3,750 for the Auralic and Iris DDC. (3) Move up even further to the Aurender N200 streamer at $6,000 and yes you may get a considerable improvement in SQ over the Auralic, and add a PS Audio Airlens at $3,500 and you will definitely be at a level the Node or Auralic cannot reach. However the total cost rises to about $9,500 for the Aurender and Airlens. I'd LOVE to have the funds to buy the N200, but that is not my within my financial reality.....thus it's important to find the very best sound I can within my budget. And I'll save my shekels until I can afford an Aurender product. Right now my reality is a Node 130 and a Denafrips Iris DDC, with a Supra Excalibur USB cable ($140) and a Audioquest Vodka 8K HDMI ($300) cable for I2S to the Pontus. Happy New Years to you all! |
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I'm not going to get into the moral implications of privilege, I'd estimate all of us audiophiles in top tier here, level of guilt subjective.
I do believe value for money is valid question, personally, I don't see parts and assembly costs of off the shelf streamers to be value proposition. I'm DIY kind of person, so utility one of most important considerations. Business models for off the shelf don't provide me with equivalent utility vs my research, labor time, but that's just me.
Bottom line, each individual undertakes their own cost benefit analysis, vast majority of individuals using high end streamers find them to be worth it, who am I or anyone to question that. Objectively, great variability in streamers, observationally, sound quality correlates with price, and my own experience mirrors that. |
@niodari Im having a hard time following you. No employing people is not a charity, it’s something much better, you know “ teach a man to fish” ??? |
@jerryg123 comrade i didn't ask you an advice of where and how to move learn counting first. @bikeboy52 if you consider your purchase as a charity for these 150 person then this makes a sense. I wished to clarify some things for me that i don't know, apparently i choose a wrong thread |
@sonic79 that is fair. Not a Holo May fan but to each their own. |
@jerryg123 To be fair, not all components that carry the ASR seal of approval are crap. Taking DAC's for example, the Mola Mola Tambaqui is top 10 in measured SINAD and is a top flight DAC by almost all accounts. The Okto DAC8 Stereo (which I own) is also a top measuring DAC and it earned Stereophile's 2021 digital component of the year. The Holo May KTE also measures well and is one of the highest regarded R2R DAC's. We are all aware of ASR's methodology and ideology, however. They love inexpensive components that meet the approval of their measuring tools. Very little listening actually occurs. I am undecided if this is a blessing or a curse. On one hand you can assemble a measurably perfect system for little cost. On the other hand you are resigned to the belief that you can not trust your own hearing. I say if it sounds better, then it is better. |
@niodari No I only said it once. Move along now comrade. |
@niodari kind of what I figured “ you didn’t inhale “ and your still a better human than I. Aurenders corporate bio says they have between 51 and 100 employees at they’re plant overseas,10 more stateside, figure another 50 in outsourced manufacturing of parts and misc suppliers. Round it out to 150. All those folks were able to eat and keep the lights on because people like me buy what they have to sell. If people like you keep insisting on pulling back the curtain and exposing them and other high end streamer companies for the charlatans that they are hundreds more will lose their jobs.So please just stop! You dont have to buy one or even believe in them. Just play along, we’re creating jobs and feeding people here for gods sake. |
@jerryg123 You have repeated already twice about your very generous charity once a week. Everybody knows about this already, congratulation i also appreciate it and desire you happy new year! |
@sonic79 I agree with your post. Also they would shite them selves if they only really had an idea of what a great digital rig sounds like. Not the crap Amir peddled. |
@niodari No I will not and what is unsubstantiated? If you had spent 1 hour a week doing charitable work you would not make such statements, you would know. Happy New Year and make a resolution to serve your community instead of pissing about how we spend our money. Cheers
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I notice a trend of disproportionate scrutiny towards digital on this forum. This same level of scrutiny doesn't seem to exist with analog components, and that being the land of $50,000+ vinyl rigs. Yet spending $6,000 on a streamer is inconceivable to some. Perhaps ASR has become stale and the congregation has migrated here. |
