Streamer creates a Wow experience

I read the reviews on the Pegasus and the Draco and I would likely go for the Pegasus.  One thing I noted was the Draco was best used with the balanced outputs (XLR) and I only have single ended equipment.  I'd be using this with my 45SE tube monos so I can't use XLR.  I'll have to ask him about the Pegasus single ended outputs and if they're better than the Draco.  Probably not a huge deal but I don't want to be limited and not being able to do much about it.

@tubeguy76 Thanks for the update and glad it seems to be working out. Yeah I’m very happy with the Pegasus in my HeadFi system, and I get my McCormack amp back from SMcAudio soon with full mods so I’ll definitely have more to say once I get that up and running in my home system. I’d recommend reading the reviews on soundnews.net as I generally agree with his assessments and he writes quality reviews. He’s reviewed the Pegasus and I believe he’s reviewed the Pontus ll and at maybe even the Aries, and whichever meets your preferred sound profile best would be the one I’d go with. One thing I will say is the Draco seems to sound almost identical to the Pegasus as per soundnews.net and costs like $300 less, so that might be worth exploring as well.

One thing I really like about the Pegasus is that it does not seem to roll of the upper treble that some R2R DACs seem to do, so if that’s also a concern of yours that would be something to focus on.  I’m really liking the R2R performance so far.

@soix I received the new power supply today and so far everything sounds very nice.  I can tell that things are a bit smoother and just overall "better".  Certainly haven't noticed any worse performance.  I guess one thing to consider it I'm running the Zen Stream at 15v now vs 12v in addition to the upgraded supply so I'm sure that has an impact.  Anyway, so far so good, I'd say it's well worth the $75.

By the way, do you still like the Pegasus DAC?  I'm looking to replace my SMSL DO200.  Was looking at a Chord Qutest or a Denafrips Pontus II... maybe the Ares II if I want to save a few bucks. 

@tubeguy76 Great!  If you could let me know what improvements you hear.  I never used the original power supply and don’t currently have access to it to do a comparison so I’d be interested in what you find.  All I know is it sounds damn good with the iPowerX. 

Soix... thanks for the BH link, I just bought one of the $75 15v power supplies for my ifi Zen Stream.  Should be here Thursday.

Thanks, I will.

+1 @eisen0169. Enjoy!

You can’t really assess streaming seriously with Spotify.  Report back after you get Qobuz. 

Wow is right.  I just splurged based on this thread and everyone's advice and some more googling and got the iPower Elite.  I had just ordered the Japanese SHM version of The Police Greatest Hits but hadn't listened.  The first cut, Roxanne, is well known and the sequence of play was the Zen Stream with its standard power supply, then the CD.  Obviously the CD was much better in every way.  These play through a Canare coax cable into the "DAC" of a Marantz SA10, then into a Luxman 590AXii (Class A) integrated and then into Yamaha NS-5000 speakers, so I consider that setup a "compact reference system".  So then I switched the power supply to the iPower Elite.  Heard it right away.  All streaming just wirelessly from free Spotify from my Macbook Air laptop.  Now as recommended will try a trial of Quobuz.  It does seem like overkill to spend almost as much on the power supply as the streamer, but in this case, where the system is pretty much higher end I guess anything that's a weak link like the standard Zen Stream power supply shows up as such.

Your journey to separate Streamer mirrors my own.

I was an early user of the ZEN Stream, and was impressed by this little unit. I have a DAC that offers I2S and I really wanted that, so I bought the Matrix X-SPDIF 2 USB Interface with I2S. I used that between the ZEN Stream and my DAC and got another level of clarity with that.

I have now moved on to the Musica Pristina A Capella III which is a dedicated Streamer with native I2S outputs. Astonishing upgrade! Everything improved, including lower noise floor, crystal clarity and certified Roon Ready support.

Talk to Kevin a Musica Pristina. He is easy to work with, and incredibly knowledgeable.

@soix Thats it..I think you’ve hit it on the head. That’s been my concern with moving to a Denafrips in the comparable range of offerings (at least with the way my system is going). However or whatever it is that renders a more subdued high frequency detail or shimmer, seems many who finally get the Pegasus say what you’re indicating here. I don’t know if I can justify getting into the Aquarius price range, but the Pegasus seems a remarkable value proposition. I’ve also been curious about the new Ladder Schumann, also compares favorably against the Pegasus. But don’t know if the I2s pinout configs would match up with the Mercury. 

Nonetheless, very cool of you for sharing your insights. Helps many of us here feel better about embracing the latest streaming possibilities. 

@riccitone The Mercury Streamer looks really interesting kinda like getting a Zen Stream with DDC capability for only another $200.  Bargain!

I have to say one of my favorite aspects of the Pegasus is that although it provides the typical benefits of R2R it doesn’t roll off the upper treble as some R2R DACs seem to do. 

@eisen0169 - I agree with @soix in that upgrading the zen PS improves sound quality & is worth pursuing. Haven't tried the "elite" so can't comment on it's performance. I do have three iPowerX PS's in my system & they are better than the standard wall wart you are currently using.     

Congrats on your setup! I’ve heard the zen stream, sounds really great. Personally considering the Pegasus as my next dac purchase, and your relating your experience with it is confirming what I’ve read. I almost got a zen stream, but instead went with a Pi2design Mercury Streamer. Just a bit more in price, but INSANELY good for $600. It acts as both a ddc and transport with multiple and simultaneous digital outputs. So clean that it pretty well get beyond the need for a separate ddc. The pinout for its I2s is also compatible with the Musicain audio pinout. Just thought it worth mentioning, but your rig already seems to be hitting it out of the park 👌🏼👍🏼

Thanks.  I did realize that after I posted that it is the power supply itself that can be noisy.  I did see that iPowerX online.  I then checked out some of the LPS mentioned in this thread and saw how much they cost.  I also found the iPower Elite from iFi and was wondering if anyone compared it to the iPowerX.  It is $300, which might be overkill I guess.  Or it might not in my compact reference system, which includes a Luxman 590AXii amp, which itself is pretty quiet.  I am thinking when I hear less "quality" when playing the same music streaming (although so far just Spotify) than with the same music via cd what I'm hearing from streaming is actually noise.  I've had it so good with my system in terms of noise, I'm not sure what real noise is supposed to sound like I guess.  Does seem like there's some kind of "graininess" when streaming so I guess that is noise.

@eisen0169 The power supply still makes a difference (my Zen Stream is plugged into an Audience power conditioner). I’d highly recommend picking up a used IFi iPowerX from B&H for only $75 — that’s what I did. I’d also highly recommend doing a free trial of Qobuz. Through the Zen Stream it sounds significantly better in my system than spinning CDs, and obviously it’s hugely more convenient with a near endless world of music at your fingertips, much of it in hi res. No harm in trying.

I also bought the ifi Zen Stream to try streaming.  I was able to take advantage of the DAC in my Marantz SA10 SACD player, which is not a DAC per se but works in a proprietary way, but only accepts 75 ohm coax SPIDF.  I invested in a true coax cable from Canare for not much.  So far have enjoyed the free streaming but it's not quite as good as CD through the Marantz.  If I sample something I absolutely love, I'll just buy the CD.  Since my ifi Zen Stream is plugged into my Shunyata Hydra Delta power conditioner, would I even benefit from a LPS, since as I understand it the LPS is designed to diminish power line noise?  Or is the ifi's standard power supply itself adding noise back into the Stream?  If anyone knows, I'd appreciate your insights.  Thanks.

@arafiq I agree 1000% with you about the Innuos Sense sounding better than Roon.  The difference is not subtle.

You forgot to mention unlike Roon there is no fee, you just need to own an Innuos Streamer.

If you can't live without Roon the Innuos does have their "Experimental Mode" that sounds better than Roon but not as good as Innuos Sense.

Recently acquired the Aurender N20 to replace the A10.

HUGE improvement over an already great sounding unit.

Getting the best quality streamer you can afford is definitely 

worth your money IMO. 

i had the ifi Zen Stream for 3 months and could not get it to work without disconnection errors. returned 3 of them. at the time i was using a NAD D1050 DAC. finally i bought the Bluesound 2i and it just worked flawlessly. it could have been incompatibility issue with my network or the NAD? another problem could have been that Tidal is only available in my area? there have been problems reported with Tidal users and the Zen Stream.  and yes it does deliver great SQ and thats why i put up with it. my understanding is that a new version of the IFI Zen Stream is soon to be released which could be more universally compatible? i have since upgraded my DAC to a Denafrips DAC and would like to see if the IFI play better with the Denafrips. like to upgrade from the Bluesound.

@soix 

nice post helping others on using qobuz with the zenstream - if i didn't use roon, i would've had to cross that bridge myself

excellent info

@jond Thanks man.  So far I’ve only gotten to hear this stuff on my HeadFi rig and it made a big improvement.  I get my DNA 0.5 back from SMcAudio very soon and can’t wait to hear this gear in the big rig. 

@soix Congrats so glad your venture into streaming went well, And + 1 on the LPS issue I use an Sbooster LPS on my Auralic Aries Mini its a substantial improvement. Sounds like the Ifi's a nice little unit and did a bit of reading on your Dac that's quite a machine for $1100!

hey that’s awesome you’re in love with your new set up! Enjoy it!!
When are you getting a DDC? Keep the thoughts flowing…update us here on how that changed the sound.

@audphile1 Man, I’m absolutely aching for an SU6 and I even already have a 6” HDMI cable ready to go for when I get one as I know it’s gonna generate meaningful improvements. The thing is my credit card is already throbbing from building a HeadFi system, buying an LTA MZ2 (for both preamp and headphone amp duties), and sending my DNA 0.5 RevA back to SMcAudio for full upgrades. Ouch. It might be a while before I can shell out for anything else, but I’ll certainly keep you posted if anything develops. I hate/love this hobby.

@shooter41 Yeah, I have a Singxer SA1 amp driving my Hifiman Arya Stealths and absolutely love it, and it too is built like a small tank and is why I’m targeting the SU6 for a DDC to take advantage of the i2S connection on my Musician Pegasus.  Big Singxer fan so far. 

I recently bought a Singxer SU-6, but I use it in place of a streamer. Not sure this would work for you as mine is fed from Roon running on a Mac Mini, so I don't actually need my streaming device to be able to connect directly to the streaming service.

The Singxer is my fourth try at a bridge device between the Mac and my DAC. I have tried the Zen Stream and agree that it sounded good even though I was only using the standard power supply. I just decided I wasn't happy with the limited output types and returned it. Before that I tried the Bricasti M5, a device that retails for 6X the cost of the Zen Stream. While the build quality was impeccable it would not send an audio signal to my DAC (Yggdrasil LiM) via USB. At the time I was committed to using the USB input on the DAC as Schiit is known to have a thoroughly sorted USB interface, especially now with Unison. The Zen Stream also wouldn't do it. I also tried the brand new Mercury streamer from Pi2Design and it was fairly disastrous. Only one output worked and even it sounded pretty awful. I think they have some bugs to work out and it may be a fine unit when they do.

Enter the Singxer. I gave up on the USB input on my DAC and liked that the Singxer offered a balanced AES output as I use balanced connections throughout the rest of my system. Would love to try the I2S connection, but alas, the Yggy doesn't offer that. From what I've read, it would not be a night and day difference anyway. Roon recognized the Singxer right away as a bridge device and it just worked from the jump. One note; you may be aware that the Singxer has user-adjustable dip switches. I didn't ever read anything definitive on setting them specifically for Roon so I just didn't touch them and it worked fine. If anyone knows some dip switch settings for this I'm willing to try them.

I've been pleased enough with the Singxer that I'm tempted to buy a LPS for it, but from what I understand, there's not much to be gained there as the Singxer is primarily powered from it's super capacitor. Indeed, there are warnings in the box about how this takes a few minutes to power up and down. Again, something I might be willing to try if someone has specific experience with this.

I expect you'll be quite happy with the Singxer. I just thought I'd inform everyone of it's ability to replace the streaming device in some instances.

@soix hey that’s awesome you’re in love with your new set up! Enjoy it!! 
When are you getting a DDC? Keep the thoughts flowing…update us here on how that changed the sound.

If I had the budget I would’ve jumped on an Innuos Zen Mk3 not only for the streaming quality but also because I could just load the rest of my CDs not available for streaming and have everything all in one place.  Alas, for now I’m still quite impressed with the sound I’m getting out of the Zen Stream.  Sigh. 

Innuos is another manufacturer that should be on everyone’s radar. It made a positive change in my system. Their Sense 2.0 software is amazing and SQ-wise it’s better than Roon. However, you also have the option to run it not only as a Roon endpoint but also as a Roon server. Plus you get a built-in CD ripper and local storage to save CDs and DSD files. 

pdreher

I know many here like Aurender, but found it to be very buggy and had connectivity issues that I was unable to resolve, despite numerous exchanges with Aurender customer support ... I just couldn’t get it to work consistently and had to move on.

My experience was similar. I bought my Aurender new from an authorized dealer and it really never worked properly. Support wasn’t very helpful and because audio is a hobby and supposed to be fun, I dumped it and moved on.

To be fair, it sounded pretty good when it worked.

I just wanted to do a separate post for those who may want to stream Qobuz through the iFi Zen as Qobuz as of yet cannot stream direct to the Zen. At first I thought maybe I made a horrible mistake getting the Zen as my sole source for streaming is Qobuz. I had visions of wrestling with third-party apps trying to get everything to work together — it seemed like a nightmare for sure headed my way, especially because I’m just awful at dealing with anything computer related.

Long story short, I needn’t have worried, and this is one of those VERY rare instances where everything just worked. To get Qobuz to work with the Zen you need to download the mconnect app. This made me nervous as the app only had like a 3-star rating, which had me really worried this was going to be a bad experience with glitches galore. Anyway, to minimize potential issues I plunked down the $5.99 for the mconnectHD version, which I can’t recommend highly enough. Once you have your Zen hooked into your WiFi, you just go into the app, choose Qobuz and sign into your Qobuz account when prompted, and that’s it — you’re done. Even I couldn’t screw it up, and that’s seriously saying something because I’m a pro at finding problems where there are none.

Here’s the best part — once these steps were completed, everything just worked! Imagine that. Qobuz popped up in the mconnect app, and all my playlists, favorites, etc. were there. It takes a few minutes to find the search function because the layout is a bit different from the Qobuz site, but it’s all there and it all works just as it should. I couldn’t believe when I hit play, the green light lit up on the Zen, and music started playing. Not only did music start playing, but it sounded absolutely glorious — much better than playing CDs at least in my system (admittedly I’m just using an Oppo through SPDIF as a transport, so take this for what it’s worth).

Sorry for being so long winded, but I just wanted to assure anyone who may be considering this route that it’s really easy to implement and the results are incredible. Hope this helps.

@reimarc 

+1 for Aurender streamers. They have outstanding good sound quality every level of price / quality. They are completely self contained, so no need to play around with other software. You can easily move any files you want onto them. These are audiophile components. Plunk them down and the provide outstanding sound quality. I have two (see my ID). 
 

Their Conductor App is excellent and well regarded for its simplicity and power. 

Streaming vs. cd sound quality is no longer the issue. Streaming wins on the availability of music and ease with which it can be accessed. Now, my own experience during the time I was transitioning from cd's to cd rips, was that the rips had better sound quality than cd's, this was the final nail in coffin for cd's, and I had well over 3.5k cd's to rip, took me a couple years, what a pain!

I'd like to be convinced there is a single music player software that is superior to all the others. I've observed reviews of the software for years, opinions all over the place. At some point its likely I'll try some proprietary player. The excellent sound quality I'm getting with Roon at present certainly doesn't give me feeling I'm leaving something on the table. I have found that turning OFF every single process possible with Roon provides best sound quality. I also presume Roon has deepest pockets of all the music player software app providers, assume greater knowledge base of engineers working on things like sound quality, ease of use, etc.

Per sound quality music player software. What makes me somewhat skeptical is while some claim they hear differences in sound quality with Roon updates, I can't confidently claim I hear them. I'd have to do A>B>A comparison from some rather old Roon iteration to latest to really test for this. Still, not writing this off as possible or even likely, I just think the small differences between iterations make it difficult to hear.

Don't listen to those who claim lps and usb no good, total nonsense. Lps always good, usb superior in some cases, other times not, depends on implementation. One must optimize both usb out of server/streamer and usb in on dac.

BTW please ignore silly comment that a LPS for digital audio is snake oil. Utter nonsense. Best wishes.

@charles1dad Yeah, I know.  I was just trying to be nice instead of my more normally cantankerous self.  I use the iFi iPowerX power supply with my Zen Stream. 

@reimarc I highly encourage you to jump in.  There are obviously many ways to go — it can be very overwhelming — but I’d highly recommend the route I took as the results are spectacular, it’s not that expensive, and it could hardly be easier to get up and running.  The iFi Zen Stream by all accounts is an excellent performer at a very reasonable price.  It can be had for $399, and I view the iPowerX (or some other external power supply) as not optional.  I got my iPowerX from B&H used for $75 and works great, and they apparently still have more...

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1551794-REG/ifi_audio_306039_15v_ipower_x_15v_anc2.html

Setup could hardly be easier and you can just follow the few steps on their quick start guide and be done in five minutes.  The only wrinkle is you can’t stream Qobuz directly through the Zen, so you need to download the mconnect app and link your Qobuz to it, then you play Qobuz through the app to the Zen.  I’d only recommend the mconnectHD version for $5.99 as it allows you to play everything and the install/setup process was a breeze — not sure that’s the case with the Lite/free version.  Anyway, if you’re looking to just get started with a relatively affordable yet high-performing option with an absolute minimum of headaches, I can’t recommend this setup more highly.  Best of luck. 

@lordmelton

Thanks for your post. I just want to reiterate, the use of external clock with N20, N30 or W20 requires a well thought out holistic approach and a commitment for SOTA digital streaming. Attaching a 10mhz master clock to a streamer is a half bake idea even with a high quality DAC. A external clock on streamer end alone will not yield full benefits in terms of musical rhythm, pace, timing, realism and phase coherence.

In order to realize aforementioned benefits, you need a music server and a DAC with master clock inputs. The external clock can then be used as a single source to synchronize timing between both digital devices ensuring jitter-free and time-perfect data transmission.

My previous setup included a N20, DA2, Ref10. While adding the Ref10 made a difference over already excellent internal clock in N20, the differences was not day n night or should I say worth $8K (clock, PC, BNC cable). I was looking for next level improvements and thanks to @mikelavigne and my dealer @gestalt audio, I now have what I believe a true SOTA digital streaming front end. I also encourage the use of high quality Ethernet switch / noise filtering device to further enhance your streaming experience.

I know many here like Aurender, but found it to be very buggy and had connectivity issues that I was unable to resolve, despite numerous exchanges with Aurender customer support and sending the unit to Aurender to replace the SS drive.  I give Aurender kudos for trying everything to resolve the problem, including inspecting the unit (which I bought used from a dealer) and replacing the SS drive at no charge.   I just couldn't get it to work consistently and had to move on.  YMMV.

If you are using usb to your dac, your sq will always be flawed, it doesn’t matter how many tweaks/gimmicks you add to make usb sound better.

omg ... here we go... 🍿

let’s see --

... all dacs sound the same

... it is all 1's and 0's... none of it matters

... cables make no difference

... vinyl is better than digital

... tubes are better than solid state

... if you can’t measure a difference there ain’t no difference

... fuses are the most important part of every system

and so it goes, around and around

Aurender doesn’t use Roon by design and choice, they have their own eco-system with nothing else interfering.

Aurender’s Conductor app does nothing whatsoever to influence the sound of streaming, internal hard drives or attached NAS. It purely has the function to index and select tracks to play. It is available for both Apple and Android.

Conductor’s Folder application is the best way to use Conductor IMHO because it’s like a DOS version that lists everything by text and small thumbnails, great if you have a large library or playlists.

The N20 and N30 substantially benefit from the addition of a 10 Mhz master clock.

“Aurender’s ecosystems are sonically quite impressive given the coupling between the hardware and software.”
+1, ​​​​@blisshifi

@sbank

I understand if you prefer Roon but its not the best software for sound quality. I am not here to bash ROON but in direct comparison with Aurender Conductor app, I still prefer Conductor interface, file curation and ease of browsing music by a mile. I never wonder if I am getting the best SQ with Conductor. Again, this is my personal preference and a conclusion drawn upon last 12 months of side by side comparison. BTW, I own lifetime Roon subscription :-)

@sbank Aurender does not support Roon. Many people are partial to Roon due to its user interface, but if one has not paid for a lifetime pass, they continue to throw money away on it monthly. Aurender’s ecosystems are sonically quite impressive given the coupling between the hardware and software. As @lalitk encourages use of the iPad for the conductor app, a new version of the iPhone app is in beta to its dealers and nearing full release soon. I was able to play with it at AXPONA and can hint that the user experience is much better. I actually requested some of the features it will contain.

In full disclosure, I am an Aurender dealer.

@lalitk Does Aurender finally support Roon? 

Yeah they sound great, but that's a dealkiller for me and many others.

@soix Kudos!

Ping me when you get 4TB of storage ready to go and I'll hook you up. 

Cheers,

Spencer

@reimarc

I would look into Aurender N150 or N200. There are plenty of dealers that can afford you in-home demo. Either of these streamers would be a substantial upgrade over your MacBook. And their conductor app is easy to navigate / browse music and robust in its operation. I also recommend a tablet for conductor app. 
https://aurender.com/n150/

@p05129

Complete nonsense that USB is flawed! It’s quality is very dependent on the implementation. My Holo Audio MAY KTE DAC has Galvanic Isolation on the USB and I will tell you it sounds VERY GOOD!

I am following this thread with great interest, as I feel finally ready to take the streaming plunge. I already subscribed to Qobuz , Tidal and HDTracks, but am still on the fence about which streamer to buy. My music files are organized on my MacbookAir connected via Ethernet to our Comcast router, and my digital source is MSB Platinum Signature (heavily modified Oppo CD/SACD drive and NOS DAC). In other words: I do not need a streamer with a built-in DAC, which is the reason for my conundrum: all the better streamers come with their own DACs, which - in my case - would be a waste of money. Any educated suggestions from this illustrious forum?

@soix 

Thank you for posting and congrats on taking the leap of faith. I hope your thread open eyes for many who still thinks streamer quality don’t matter or streaming is no where near the quality of CD’s. I will also add, everything matters in digital chain. Once you settle down with your setup, start experimenting with LAN cable and noise filters. Not sure what LAN cable you’re currently using but for starters, a high quality LAN cable like Supra CAT 8 and a noise filter like Acoustic Revive RLI-1GB-TripleC should further enhance your streaming experience. 

@soix 

so when you play CDs, what is the setup?  How do you get the music into your headphones?

I have found good Ethernet cables around $1k x2 make a much bigger difference then cheaper $300 models ,especially at the end point side.

and a very good Ethernet switch ,the uptone Ethernet switch ,or far better still

the Synergistic research switch but is almost $1700  with discounts.

If you are using usb to your dac, your sq will always be flawed, it doesn’t matter how many tweaks/gimmicks you add to make usb sound better. 

@jjss49 

Correct. I’d simply advise @soix to try a good quality LPS and make his own determination.

Charles 

high quality power supply is a very important contributor towards high sound quality for all components -- analog or digital

full stop

@soix 

BTW please ignore silly comment that a LPS for digital audio is snake oil. Utter nonsense. Best wishes.

Charles